Poe speed/meter-reduction intact + visible teams = Poe problem actually gets worse with the update
February 4, 2016 3:03AM
edited February 2016
This came up in another thread but is worth its own thread so CG and players realize what is about to happen.
Poe was nerfed, but barely, and in the wrong place. Lower tenacity slightly increases the chance of stunning him before he taunts, but that was a low chance to begin with. Even the expose reduction is besides the point. Poe is used to speed up teams and protect glass cannons. He can still do this. So he will still provide an enormous advantage.
Now combine this with another change: everyone will be able to see your entire team. Poe was rarely used as a leader, so you didn't know for sure he'd be there on a team you attacked. Now? Everyone has to lift their skirts, so to speak. So people will be able to "bully" teams that look weaker, and at the top of the list will be... any team without Poe.
Alternative or unusual teams will also get "picked on" because they will look easy. Try to build a healer team? Or anything else weird? Everyone will fight you and knock you down. No longer can you try something different with a common leader like Lumi and give someone a surprise.
We are now heading into an arms race where Poe (or maybe ST Han) will need to be on every team just to be competitive. And the rest of the characters will usually be high DPS / AoE.
Somehow after making us wait for weeks to deal with Poe, CG has managed to put out an update that -- while great in many other respects -- will actually reduce PvP build diversity.
Poe was nerfed, but barely, and in the wrong place. Lower tenacity slightly increases the chance of stunning him before he taunts, but that was a low chance to begin with. Even the expose reduction is besides the point. Poe is used to speed up teams and protect glass cannons. He can still do this. So he will still provide an enormous advantage.
Now combine this with another change: everyone will be able to see your entire team. Poe was rarely used as a leader, so you didn't know for sure he'd be there on a team you attacked. Now? Everyone has to lift their skirts, so to speak. So people will be able to "bully" teams that look weaker, and at the top of the list will be... any team without Poe.
Alternative or unusual teams will also get "picked on" because they will look easy. Try to build a healer team? Or anything else weird? Everyone will fight you and knock you down. No longer can you try something different with a common leader like Lumi and give someone a surprise.
We are now heading into an arms race where Poe (or maybe ST Han) will need to be on every team just to be competitive. And the rest of the characters will usually be high DPS / AoE.
Somehow after making us wait for weeks to deal with Poe, CG has managed to put out an update that -- while great in many other respects -- will actually reduce PvP build diversity.
Quit 7/14/16. Best of luck to all of you.
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If the game was more balanced then people would invest in more than just Poe, Sidious, Luminara, Phasma etc.
It's a sad day for me. I'm pretty disappointed.
It may just be that they aren't fixing Poe because there are already solutions in place, if players would look more carefully, try new strategies and not just jump on the bandwagon.
The teams we see today are incredibly streamlined, and I honestly don't see much experimentation going on. Damage maximization is the same kind of lazy quick route that makes people decide to always roll a Barbarian with a big axe in D&D. It's standard model 1A for fighting, and it's enchanting because people like big numbers popping up on the screen. They're much easier to understand than the finer points about how skills and synergies can be set up to harmonize.
I refuse to believe that we as a community have already emptied the game and its huge character roster of possible synergies and combos in just a few months. I can easily name 20-30 characters that I NEVER see in play. And don't tell me it's because "they suck". In the beginning nobody wanted Poe either. They just regarded him as another tank toon with weak attack power and too little HP to survive his own taunt. Then somebody discovered a usage.
Often enough, that's all a "meta" really is. At least in a well balanced game. All players running the same team, because they've learned "this is the best". Until somebody figures out the counter.
So that's why I'm building experimental teams and focusing on the fun, while y'all keep whining about this one Poe.
There's one problem with them: they get destroyed by the meta teams. The DPS teams are not there because people are dumb and want to see "big numbers popping". They are there because damage is too high relative to health and the best way to win is to kill the other guy before he can do anything.
You DO understand that they have just made it exponentially more difficult to try unusual builds because now everyone can see the build before they decide if they want to attack you or not? Go ahead, put up a team with 4 oddballs. You'll find yourself down 100 ranks overnight.
And sorry, not buying the "Great and Powerful Oz" routine with respect to the developers. The stagnation in builds is a real problem right now. They have not only not addressed it, they've made it worse.
Guys, I share your sense of anxiety, but lets let it setttle for a minute.
Just basic logic:
(a) Poe got weakened, not strengthened
(b) People have beaten Poe teams with non-poe teams (the FOTP/Poe thread running around is super interesting)
Just by virtue of adding (a) and (b) above, there will be more ways to beat Poe teams. Lower tenacity means more susceptible to a Dooku stun, who always goes before Poe. Lower expose means more of your team survives the first round.
Let it settle.
The lifted skirt effect will cause more churn in the top levels. Basically it will be easier to win if you're attacking and lose if you're defending. That means more movement in ranks. I think that's good.
It'll force players to think about what tools you have to beat a certain opposing team. It will also incentivize diversification in toons, so that you have more options to beat other players. Obviously, you will also lose your rank faster and more often, incentivizing you to get back in there and fight back!
I think it's net positive, but let's see it next week...
It's not the change I felt was best but at least I won't hesitate when going against a Poe. 7* Rey will still make me cringe a bit though.
@Cpt_Dan - I am not sure what Poe teams you are facing, and admittedly I don't have Jinn yet. But right now when I face a Poe team with FOTP and droids and such, my guys are all dead before I can really do anything, expose or not.
Who would you rather verse?
Phasma Sidious Luminara Dooku Poe
Or
Phasma Sidious Luminara Dooku Anyone else.
Poe will be actively avoided if at all possible. People will notice this and then everyone will have him. Then Poe will be a problem again.
Non-Poe teams will fall in rank which will leave the top 100 completely full of 7* Poes one month after the update.
Mark my words.
Poggle / IG-86 / IG-88 / GS / Poe
vs.
Poggle / IG-86 / IG-88 / GS / anyone else
It's a no-brainer, sadly.
Maybe some new characters will change things. Right now though.. bleh.
But don't google that.
Game developers ALWAYS have resources at hand for game tearing that players can never hope to get unless they start hacking. They MADE the dang game. Of course they know stuff we don't. Why are you even contending this point?
I never suggested putting "4 oddballs" in a team just to see how it goes. You're clearly just trying to downplay what I'm saying here to make it sound feeble. But you're actually illustrating my point: Meta is at least as much about mass psychology as it is about what actually works. Any one who sticks out from the norm a little gets pounded. So they get punished for experimenting. Which means the meta is consolidated - entirely unrelated to whether it is in fact the "strongest" possible present build or not.
Even if other team has stun characters that get Poe right away....no big deal. I still 1 shot 1-2 toons. And then he still fires it next turn and game is over after that.
Funnily enough I was watching an Episode of Elementary yesterday in which Sherlock threatened to eat a Tortoise he had found. Now I have that image in my head!!!
Game used to be fun when it wasn't a grind... if I wanted a grind I would have went and played old school Everquest or some Korean MMO!
You are engaging in a lot of faithful hand-waving here. Go look at the leaderboards. Everyone is using Poe because his taunt basically guarantees victory. Nobody needs to work their way through every combination. Because I have years of experience in watching game developers make obvious and ridiculous mistakes, despite the "resources" they supposedly have. I work in software QA. I know how this goes down.
If the devs know so much, why was the massive nerf of Barriss required? Just one example. What difference does this academic exercise make? The point is that what little experimenting there was before becomes impossible when all the guys running meta powerhouses can spot any unusual team and hammer it down the leaderboard. Even if the meta changes, the problem will persist because after the shift once again you will get hammered if you have anything not as powerful as the new meta.
Once Poe and poggle are activated in 1st turn. It's a tough match. Assist toons start Killing effortlessly. Sid lead for added punch and its GG.
@Nonemo I don't think this is true. Because of the sheer number of players, and the amount of time invested by those players, gameplay, especially at the meta, ends up being far different from what developers expect.
I think you are underestimating the collective intelligence of a large playerbase. Believe me, people are trying all sorts of things and eventually people will find things that developers often don't. The playerbase is like a living monte-carlo simulation so to speak.
I wish it weren't the case.
What gets nuts is when I lose an entire speed battle and Poe, Rey and leia go before even my maxed Dooku. Then I may as well just push retreat cuz it's over and that arena battle is lost.
In GW I don't hit many Poe teams for some reason. Maybe 1:6 or less.
I think your last team is used to populate others GW. Trolls use Poe on node 12 with their 7* jinn, Leia, FOTP and GS. At least I do
There is no team synergies that defend against a team that reduces your turn meter right off the bat and then 1 shots 3-4 of your team. Doesn't matter what you throw at it.. I use Poe, Rey, Qgj, GS and FOTP or lately Poggle for Qgj and I have never, EVER lost to any team, let alone 27k plus teams, unless they have a Poe that goes before mine. Our guild [instinct] has dozens of people that experiment with different synergies and character abilities which we discuss all day every day in a live chat. Believe me, most of us have every char unlocked and several even have every character at 7*. Poe and the heavy hitters I mentioned above is the meta and nothing they have done in this patch changes that. Sorry but this is common knowledge amongst the players that really know this game well.