State of the Arena Address

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So, I'll spare everyone from starting the debate over diversity of top teams: this discussion is not meant to be anything like that, per se.

Let's start with a few facts and what they mean to us as players:

(1) This is a strategy game. This means there is not necessarily only one way to win and that while luck serves as a distinguishing element, it is far from the defining element. Strategy games often allow users to personalize their playing style and almost always have game elements that are better than others and are used more often.

(2) This is a Star Wars game. If you play this game and aren't a fan...I'd have to believe there are better things out there for you. Most are here because they like Star Wars and more specifically they are fans of one or more characters from Star Wars.

Now this sets up the ultimate predicament that is now occuring in the arena. But before we just jump right in to that there is another point I'd like to preface everything on, even though it is not a fact: the arena is what makes this game fun. So a fun arena means a fun game. Now off we go.

The fans of certain characters don't have as much fun in this game. It's a pretty bummer of a statement but it's true. I mean (1) is (1) is (1). We all have to accept there is going to be some characters that are better than others on this game. But because of (2) these meta manipulating tactics are a double edge sword. The money motivation is to force people to switch it up to stay competitive. But what happens when your latest meta wave is a bunch of characters you don't like? You either tone down and ride it out (rather boring), spend resources -time or money- to play with characters you don't like for a while (a pretty bummer compromise), or you stop playing because you don't want boredom nor do you want to use certain characters.

So there's your state of the arena. Play with certain toys or lose. You all can act like there's answers to the problem, "play this team, or that team," but you ignore a very important point: people farm the characters they like from being a fan. For a while those may compromise and play characters they don't like, but it will hit one day that the game isn't fun because they aren't chosing what they want anymore, they're being forced to play a game with pieces they don't actually like.

Here's a laughable point to consider. Suppose I see the app, look at the ad pics, farm a team of Old Ben, Luke, Chewie, Leia, and Han (likely STH at first.) This is a wonderful fan team. I mean, why else advertise with them? I head to the arena and....lose. Badly. "Well I'll level, mod, gear, optimize" and then I'll still lose. The answer so many of you will give is: "farm different toons." I'd say, well I'm not a fan of the Empire or Maul and Nihilus. What do you say to that? "Don't worry try this...or that. What do you mean you don't like Rex and Palpatine?"

Point is this: we have a Strategy Game that may very well simply not even be Star Wars by the time you cull out all the non-arena worthy characters. You alienate such a large part of the fan base that the name loses it's luster.

Replies

  • https://swgoh.gg/u/stormtro0p3r/

    For reference of anyone curious.
  • So... is that reference team supposed to be a meta team? Or did I miss the point?
  • Must be a really gimp shard.
  • Just that I'm not whining because I can't win. That there is actually a problem I think this game has and I'm a top arena player on my "gimp shard."
  • Very nice.
  • Vertigo
    4496 posts Member
    https://swgoh.gg/u/stormtro0p3r/

    For reference of anyone curious.

    Just curious, why were you running zQGJ up until last night when you switched to the Old Ben lead.

    Back on topic:

    I agree, they do alienate a large amount of the fan base, but they have very good tactics to keep people playing and hook them in at the start. Which is why so many people keep playing, but complain about how all their favorites characters don't stand up to the end game arena standards. I'm not really a huge fan of this method, but I do happen to like a lot of star wars characters so I can usually find a way to play with a character I like. And there are some characters that just have fun skillsets so I can overlook not knowing as much about them and still enjoy using them. Its when characters that I don't like get boring skillsets but ones that are very useful that I would be upset (Mainly Wiggs, boring skills, they're not very exciting characters and theres no strategy to it). At least with Zaul I get to run a full sith team, and I enjoy sith so it's fun. Some of the skills are probably a bit much (Dodge meta) but I can overlook that as long as I'm happy with the people I have on the team. A full resistance or FO team I'm not a huge fan of the characters as a lot of them are just generic toons, but they have really interesting and fun to play abilities with legitimate strategy to them, so those are cool too and I can overlook the generic characters as the whole team needs a good strategy to win and it's fun.
  • If you follow the meta, you get to use a pretty broad range of characters. I've gone through Jedi, dooku dodge (okay this one was stale), rebels, empire and sith. I've farmed quite a few toons from each that I still use for raids, gw, other aspects of the game. You can still use Jedi, Rebels in arena and get solid rankings, but you might not hold well defensively.
  • I've always said why not make all factions viable? Than everyone throws tomatoes at me and yells follow the meta. What do you do.
  • At least the current meta is cool characters. I've never ever met someone who said 'biggs darklighter is my favorite sw character'.
  • Ig88isboss wrote: »
    At least the current meta is cool characters. I've never ever met someone who said 'biggs darklighter is my favorite sw character'.

    Never even met anyone who noticed him in the movie.
  • Ig88isboss wrote: »
    At least the current meta is cool characters. I've never ever met someone who said 'biggs darklighter is my favorite sw character'.

    I think Wedge and Biggs must feature prominently in some of the expanded universe novels. I wouldn't say they are my favourite characters, but it never seemed odd to me that they were some of the strongest toons in the game.
  • The0n3
    984 posts Member
    Well, the way i see you got 2 options:

    1- farm the toons you like and play the game mostly for fun. This option can go 2 ways as well: you farmed the toons you like and they happen to be a competitive arena team (this example suits me, since i farmed Jedi since day 1 cause they're my favorite toons and i'm in the top of my arena shard) OR you farmed the toons you like and they're lame in arena... This example works well for those who don't care about placing in top spots or be competitive.

    2- Chase the meta or build a strong arena squad, regardless of it been composed by toons you like it or not.
  • Some people consider themselves collectors and level, farm, gear, and play arena to increase their "collection".

    For those people, I think the argument doesn't hold much water.

    I am not one of those people and I would heartily agree with you on all points.

    My hope is that long term I will have enough toons leveled and geared to be able to compete regardless of the META. That is also hoping that the game will continue to be tweaked to stay balanced.

    zMaul is kind of the antithesis of how the game seemed to be moving recently.

    My top 20 in arena is almost all zMaul with a couple zQGJ, one Rex lead and one set of Bounty Hunters (me).
  • Kivoku
    190 posts Member
    +1 to OP, well said and very articulate representation of how things are going. I'm with you @Ig88isboss, bring on the tomatoes.
  • Vertigo
    4496 posts Member
    edited March 2017
    Boooooooooooooooo! Only one faction should be viable!!!!1!! Everyone get @Ig88isboss He's a menace! Boooooooooo! /s

    tumblr_mh77hatUpX1s2xprbo1_500.gif
  • Maybe my level of fandom is different than most others here. I like Star Wars, but I don't really have favorite characters. The overall theme is enough for me, I don't have issues with chasing stronger ones because they all fit into that theme anyway. For me, it's more fun to be competitive than to collect "favourites".
  • So what's the answer? Make every character identical so players can pick thier favorite character and still be tops in the arena? For everyone saying make everyone viable how is that going to be accomplished? Over 100 characters in this game. A large portion are gonna be clunkers. Just the way it is.

    And remember what the purpose of this game is. To make money. If all you needed to ever do is pick your 5 favorite characters and run them 24/7 not only would you get bored but how would EA make any money?
  • Vertigo wrote: »
    Boooooooooooooooo! Only one faction should be viable!!!!1!! Everyone get @Ig88isboss He's a menace! Boooooooooo! /s

    tumblr_mh77hatUpX1s2xprbo1_500.gif

    I laughed :lol:
  • scuba
    14034 posts Member
    Ig88isboss wrote: »
    At least the current meta is cool characters. I've never ever met someone who said 'biggs darklighter is my favorite sw character'.

    So there are characters in the game you like. ;)
  • ShaolinPunk
    3486 posts Moderator
    Point is this: we have a Strategy Game that may very well simply not even be Star Wars by the time you cull out all the non-arena worthy characters. You alienate such a large part of the fan base that the name loses it's luster.

    This is highly contextual for each individual though. Like, maybe some players really dig the show that the Phoenix crew are from. Or, some of us, while loving Star Wars, are more interested in being competitive than we are on the heroes that "work best" right now.

    I agree, that in an ideal world, you could use any set of heroes you wanted and climb to the top. My personal shard experience is that I have to bounce around 4 or five team comps to hurdle over the other guys before payout. That's better than it's been in a long time. So, if I'm honest with my experience, we're moving in a better direction, toward giving any hero a chance. I feel it is fair to say that the balance we imagine possible may be as hard as 'bringing balance to the force'.... and there's a whole saga to watch if you want to see effective that is (or isn't).

    I do love your posts and articulation, this is good feedback.
    **Please tag me (@ShaolinPunk) if you need assistance.** My Collection. . My Poll.. Ally Code: 332-622-913 Discord: shaolin_punk#2107
  • 0DYSEUS
    8 posts Member
    edited March 2017
    I'm on your arena shard. I get it, being forced to change characters to keep up sucks. I've come close to quitting multiple times. Sorry for knocking you out of fifth position today. Just try to have fun.
  • 0DYSEUS wrote: »
    I'm on your arena shard. I get it, being forced to change characters to keep up sucks. I've come close to quitting multiple times. Sorry for knocking you out of fifth position today. Just try to have fun.

    No worries, I wasn't on.
  • Rumpelstilzchen
    1754 posts Member
    edited March 2017
    My advice. Farm Arena, forget rank. Achieve what you can and move on. If you chase that carrot, you will never be happy. PVP in any form, has ruined more games then I can count. You have a few developers trying to out think players worldwide. Backroom deals, plotting, borderline exploiting, blocking, feh, why bother. Nothing will change except the meta. No amount of well thought out sentiments, concerns and analogies will change anything. EVER.

    Now, that said, let's get back to BPM'ing, it's every gamers right! :)
    Post edited by Rumpelstilzchen on
  • Vertigo wrote: »
    https://swgoh.gg/u/stormtro0p3r/

    For reference of anyone curious.

    Just curious, why were you running zQGJ up until last night when you switched to the Old Ben lead.

    Back on topic:

    I agree, they do alienate a large amount of the fan base, but they have very good tactics to keep people playing and hook them in at the start. Which is why so many people keep playing, but complain about how all their favorites characters don't stand up to the end game arena standards. I'm not really a huge fan of this method, but I do happen to like a lot of star wars characters so I can usually find a way to play with a character I like. And there are some characters that just have fun skillsets so I can overlook not knowing as much about them and still enjoy using them. Its when characters that I don't like get boring skillsets but ones that are very useful that I would be upset (Mainly Wiggs, boring skills, they're not very exciting characters and theres no strategy to it). At least with Zaul I get to run a full sith team, and I enjoy sith so it's fun. Some of the skills are probably a bit much (Dodge meta) but I can overlook that as long as I'm happy with the people I have on the team. A full resistance or FO team I'm not a huge fan of the characters as a lot of them are just generic toons, but they have really interesting and fun to play abilities with legitimate strategy to them, so those are cool too and I can overlook the generic characters as the whole team needs a good strategy to win and it's fun.

    @Vertigo I chose my zetas to be for the Jedi. I thought "these aren't my favs but they aren't characters I dislike" and invested. More and more zMauls with B2 or fast Nihilus or both were being used. I made a team to out dodge and out turn meter the Sith. It just needs to not have completely bad luck when the opponent's EP opens.
  • Must be a really gimp shard.

    LPDuY7A.jpg

  • JohnnySteelAlpha
    2794 posts Member
    edited March 2017
    Unfortunately the reality in these games, with just 5 slots - is over time you will generally have a main meta and a bunch of other stuff that doesn't cut it more often than not. As the game gets older and more characters are added this looks more and more ridiculous because you look at 5 slots to use vs. 100+ characters as options. The times when you can see multiple elite squads with many different leaders countering each other will be brief. If you wanted a more balanced game, add in more slots so that one or 2 characters don't have such an impact. Have a 10 v 10 or at least 7 v 7. One "oops" character that is too good just blows the entire thing up - and everything (most stuff) that came before that oops character is no longer relevant - and that's going to happen periodically without fail. So essentially you have to start all over. Chaze making up 40% of a team is just so huge. If that duo was 20% of a team - not as big a deal.

    A sports comparison would be basketball vs. football or american football - basketball if you have the best player in the league, you have a higher chance to win it all cause that one player makes up a larger % of the team. 11 v 11 sports though one guy doesn't have the same dominating impact. American football is the best example as you actually have 22 v 22 and including special teams it's more like 35+ v 35+.

    The other issue with maintaining favorite characters is the business model here (you alluded to it above already) that revenue has to be sustained over time here. So powercreep really is necessary - people just don't buy weak characters at the same rate as strong stuff (holding all other factors equal). So the game's meta is going to often be determined simply by release date - not the character or anything else - but the day a dev slotted that character for hitting the game.

    I think the redeeming thing in SW at least is that there are other very important parts of the game that non-arena characters can do very well in. Clones aren't meta, but they are great fun in the AAT p4. Droids are no longer top tier arena, but also very fun in AAT. zDV is no longer as elite in arena, but still great in Rancor. GW you can also use many different teams. I agree it's not the same as arena, but it helps.
  • Teague
    939 posts Member
    I agree completely. 15 of the top 20 on my arena are Maul lead. There's less diversity now than at any time since I started playing (March 2016). I've never seen so many of the same team in the top 50. Well over half use the same exact thing. It's a boring thing to sit at rank 16 (my current position) and have only one option in my available opponents... Maul.
  • My whole stupid shard has been (and still mostly is) an **** of Wiggs and Chaze teams. I feel glad that I followed my personal preference of dark side/Sith/Empire toons since day one. I am lucky that the meta is favorable for me now, though even if it shifts I am still happy sticking with DS toons. It's just what I prefer.
  • Rumpelstilzchen
    1754 posts Member
    edited March 2017
    If they wanted to shake things up, offer random faction bonuses. "This weekend, First Order teams will receive 20% less damage facing Republic/Rebels teams" the following weekend flip the script and Pub/Reb teams take less damage etc. Then the strangle hold is broken and all must scramble to build a more diverse roster. "This weekend Ewoks gain +50% evade chance" lol

    Or my personal favorite idea, every 30 days the leaderboard clears and the top 250 are dropped and must regain thier positions. Won't happen but I can dream. Actually it has a chance of happening, gem sales would increase for refreshes. Lol

    In all seriousness, the biggest problem is it's not PVP. It's player versus the AI. All your planning and cunning is at the mercy of the RNG. AFK PVP is a poor imitation of the real deal. Be it single combat or teams, nothing beats everyone fighting at once, realtime. I miss openworld PVP from Star Wars Galaxies.. *sigh*

    Imagine the arena fight in the Genosian Arena, and it's realtime., Sooooo cool.
  • scuba
    14034 posts Member
    If they wanted to shake things up, offer random faction bonuses. "This weekend, First Order teams will receive 20% less damage facing Republic/Rebels teams" the following weekend flip the script and Pub/Reb teams take less damage etc. Then the strangle hold is broken and all must scramble to build a more diverse roster. "This weekend Ewoks gain 50% evade chance" lol

    I for one would love that..... But would need mod set moving first.
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