Is everyone just dumb?

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AnUnusedName
56 posts Member
edited April 2017
Yea. Insulting title right? But this is the genuine thought that has crossed my mind after reading all the "meta" discussions today.

Zaul teams are not the only option and quite easy to beat when the AI is controlling them. My own shard is full of whales with impressive full gear teams. There are maybe 2 zaul teams that can hold the top 10. The REALLY well moded zader teams eat them for breakfast while the "protect the nihilus" GK led teams consistently jockey for 1st and 2nd. Meanwhile the max speed jedi teams beat the Zader and Rex teams, yet my Zylo can solo the jedi 1v5 (albeit, slowly).

What I'm trying to say here is there is a counter for everything, and if you're having trouble, it's probably because you're too comitted to one faction or haven't moded right. Things like speed order matter, sillies.

Use your heads. The fact you're required to in order to hold a decent spot in arena is what makes this game fun.

Rock on, developers.

(PS, I dont. And will never use a Zaul team. Way too much a 1 trick pony.)

Replies

  • Apparently I can't say dumb/stupid. What a world
  • benacrow
    2700 posts Member
    Yea. Insulting title right? But this is the genuine thought that has crossed my mind after reading all the "meta" discussions today.

    Zaul teams are not the only option and quite easy to beat when the AI is controlling them. My own shard is full of whales with impressive full gear teams. There are maybe 2 zaul teams that can hold the top 10. The REALLY well moded zader teams eat them for breakfast while the "protect the nihilus" GK led teams consistently jockey for 1st and 2nd. Meanwhile the max speed jedi teams beat the Zader and Rex teams, yet my Zylo can solo the jedi 1v5 (albeit, slowly).

    What I'm trying to say here is there is a counter for everything, and if you're having trouble, it's probably because you're too comitted to one faction or haven't moded right. Things like speed order matter, sillies.

    Use your heads. The fact you're required to in order to hold a decent spot in arena is what makes this game fun.

    Rock on, developers.

    (PS, I dont. And will never use a Zaul team. Way too much a 1 trick pony.)

    The problem isn't being able to beat it, it's that anyone can beat anyone. So that scrubby guy with terrible mods and g10 toons? Well he can beat your g11 maxed heavily modded toons all because of rng.

    It's one thing to not be able to beat a team, but its another when some guys have no business of beating your teams when they've never seen the top 20 before.
    FN 2187, Mighty Chlorians (spelt with a lowercase l not a capital I): Heroic AAT Guide, The Gear Grind
  • AnUnusedName
    56 posts Member
    edited April 2017
    benacrow wrote: »
    ]

    The problem isn't being able to beat it, it's that anyone can beat anyone. So that scrubby guy with terrible mods and g10 toons? Well he can beat your g11 maxed heavily modded toons all because of rng.

    It's one thing to not be able to beat a team, but its another when some guys have no business of beating your teams when they've never seen the top 20 before.

    I was largely addressing complaints about the Zaul "meta." You raise a decent point, but what you're talking about has been a more fundamental problem with this game from the start... one i don't particularly mind. It's fun trying to make a team that's strong on attack but can also maybe-sort-of stand a chance on defense. That's why I don't understand these Zaul complaints. It's as if they're losing against defending Zaul or somethong. That's crazy
  • tRRRey
    2782 posts Member
    It's easier to complain and expect sympathy than to actually develop a strategic squad (hint: there already are some)
    https://swgoh.gg/u/trey 66/
    Make Zader Great Again!
  • benacrow
    2700 posts Member
    benacrow wrote: »
    ]

    The problem isn't being able to beat it, it's that anyone can beat anyone. So that scrubby guy with terrible mods and g10 toons? Well he can beat your g11 maxed heavily modded toons all because of rng.

    It's one thing to not be able to beat a team, but its another when some guys have no business of beating your teams when they've never seen the top 20 before.

    I was largely addressing complaints about the Zaul "meta." You raise a decent point, but what you're talking about has been a more fundamental problem with this game from the start... one in don't particularly mind. It's fun trying to make a team that's strong on attack but can also maybe-sort-of stand a chance on defense. That's why I don't understand these Zaul complainta. It's as if they're losing against defending Zaul or somethong. That's crazy

    People are mad because mods and gear have been invalidated, and matches have just turned into dodge rng fests where there is no skill involved, and scrubs can beat the best of comps.
    FN 2187, Mighty Chlorians (spelt with a lowercase l not a capital I): Heroic AAT Guide, The Gear Grind
  • tRRRey
    2782 posts Member
    Mods and gear still matter, 3 dot mods aren't beating 5 dot mods and G9 characters aren't beating G11 characters
    https://swgoh.gg/u/trey 66/
    Make Zader Great Again!
  • tRRRey wrote: »
    It's easier to complain and expect sympathy than to actually develop a strategic squad (hint: there already are some)

    Agreed. I feel like an old man snapping at children who dont know how to think for themselves... but these annoying "nerf zaul" and "the meta is broken" posts piling up really tick me off.
  • LastJedi
    3047 posts Member
    edited April 2017
    It's not that you can't beat zaul. It's you need specific toons. You say the really well modded vader teams do it, and that the rex/gk/chaze do it. Easily. But if it's so easy to beat AI, then why are those the only squads you listed?

    I'm sure it's easy if you have those exact comps, lol

    Yeah, lots of squads in my arena besides Zaul. Zaul is the only one that annoys me, because it is most common. Probably because it is easiest to farm. There are plenty of other squads in my arena that I can't beat (or probably can't), but they are all pretty much unique (at this point on my shard). Plus I can't even check the new squads on top anymore, because there are so many mediocre, 40K power, poorly modded zaul squads clogging up the lanes, insulating them from me. My arena stops at the zaul wall.

    Use my head to beat it? Sure. It'll be a few more months. I hope I make it in time.

    I think everyone else is not dumb. Our shard will just take 3 to 6 months to catch up to your guys' insanely competitive shards. Most of just are just sheep pushing buttons, not the guys coordinating to take over their shard through line/discord and using multiple timers to reach our SWGOH goals on a tight schedule, lol.
  • AnUnusedName
    56 posts Member
    edited April 2017
    benacrow wrote: »

    People are mad because mods and gear have been invalidated, and matches have just turned into dodge rng fests where there is no skill involved, and scrubs can beat the best of comps.

    How so? Speed is still immensely important. How much tenacity/potency on the right toons is important.

    The order your characters go in is make or break for many teams. If you're not thinking about that/ comparing it to what your opponent is running, that's your own fault.
  • Yea. Insulting title right? But this is the genuine thought that has crossed my mind after reading all the "meta" discussions today.

    Zaul teams are not the only option and quite easy to beat when the AI is controlling them. My own shard is full of whales with impressive full gear teams. There are maybe 2 zaul teams that can hold the top 10. The REALLY well moded zader teams eat them for breakfast while the "protect the nihilus" GK led teams consistently jockey for 1st and 2nd. Meanwhile the max speed jedi teams beat the Zader and Rex teams, yet my Zylo can solo the jedi 1v5 (albeit, slowly).

    What I'm trying to say here is there is a counter for everything, and if you're having trouble, it's probably because you're too comitted to one faction or haven't moded right. Things like speed order matter, sillies.

    Use your heads. The fact you're required to in order to hold a decent spot in arena is what makes this game fun.

    Rock on, developers.

    (PS, I dont. And will never use a Zaul team. Way too much a 1 trick pony.)

    I wish I was on your shard.

    In my top 20 there is usually 1 Boba Fett lead (myself), 1 Rex lead, 2-3 zQGJ teams and the rest are all zMaul teams.

    The best of the zMaul teams rarely drop out of top 10.

    It's boring and annoying. Also, There are crummy zMaul teams with a fast SA that can jump up and snipe other zMaul teams that are way better geared and modded due to all the RNG at play.

    I run Bounty Hunters because I like them and they can actually do pretty well when modded right. At least on offense...
  • AnUnusedName
    56 posts Member
    edited April 2017
    LastJedi wrote: »
    But if it's so easy to beat AI, then why are those the only squads you listed?

    I'm sure it's easy if you have those exact comps, lol

    Isn't that the whole point? Finding out what the flavor of the month is and adapting to it? Maybe hedging your bets by farming some reliables like B2?

    Those are the squads that are good now. Yes. And in a few months when Phoenix Squadron is decimating everything, I expect to see lots more death troopers and maybe even Zentress in the top 10. A total guess but I'm working on her now because I want to stay ahead. And that's my whole point. There are specific counters for every "meta." Figuring it out should be treated as part of the game lol.
  • LastJedi wrote: »
    But if it's so easy to beat AI, then why are those the only squads you listed?

    I'm sure it's easy if you have those exact comps, lol

    Isn't that the whole point? Finding out what the flavor of the month is and adapting to it? Maybe hedging your bets by farming some reliables like B2?

    Those are the squads that are good now. Yes. And in a few months when Phoenix Squadron is decimating everything, I expect to see lots more death troopers and maybe even Zentress in the top 10. A total guess but I'm working on her now because I want to stay ahead. And that's my whole point. There are specific counters for every "meta." Figuring it out should be treated as part of the game lol.

    Unless you have a reliable way to deal with Daze and Shock, putting a Zeta on Ventress will get you nowhere.

    I ran her up until zMaul and zQGJ teams started taking over the top arena.
  • I run Bounty Hunters because I like them and they can actually do pretty well when modded right. At least on offense...

    I admire that so much. You said "I like this faction, so I'm going to tinker with it until it works again the Zaul wall"

    Didn't you feel accomplished the first time you anihilated those sith in a cloud of thermal detonations? Maybe you had to toss in a Rex or B2 to make it work or had to farm JUST the right mods... but how fun would this game be REALLY if arena was just a struggle to hold spots with the same old squad you maxed months ago? Let the Zaul kids have their sand castle for now. In my opinion, the fun is figuring out new ways to kick it down.
  • benacrow
    2700 posts Member
    benacrow wrote: »

    People are mad because mods and gear have been invalidated, and matches have just turned into dodge rng fests where there is no skill involved, and scrubs can beat the best of comps.

    How so? Speed is still immensely important. How much tenacity/potency on the right toons is important.

    The order your characters go in is make or break for many teams. If you're not thinking about that/ comparing it to what your opponent is running, that's your own fault.

    For one, I don't run Zaul, because I don't have him and I think it's dumb.

    But no, mods don't matter. I took my insanely modded Wiggs Chaze GK team, all max gear, and lost to this scrub the other day who ran Zaul DN EP Sid SA. His SA was G10.

    As for mods there, he had maybe one toon above 200 speed. My slowest (aside from Baze at 175), was GK at 230 and 90k h/p. There's no way in hell that I should lose to a guy with such poor mods and not even a fully g11 team, yet I lost with his 4 standing at the end.

    It's all just rng there. Sure you can't throw lvl 1 mods in and do well, but having several toons with 90+ speed secondaries compared to one SA who is fast because of the initial tm gain, and proceeding to lose, is a disgrace. If I ran Zaul and went first, it would matter because it's rng if the enemy dodges and all gain tm and go next. At that point, mods don't matter because I still will have whiffed with a faster toon, then they'll just all attack.
    FN 2187, Mighty Chlorians (spelt with a lowercase l not a capital I): Heroic AAT Guide, The Gear Grind
  • Olga
    1333 posts Member
    How much tenacity/potency on the right toons is important.
    ???
  • benacrow wrote: »
    [
    For one, I don't run Zaul, because I don't have him and I think it's dumb.

    But no, mods don't matter. I took my insanely modded Wiggs Chaze GK team, all max gear, and lost to this scrub the other day who ran Zaul DN EP Sid SA. His SA was G10.

    You used paper vs scissors. Yea. Mods won't help you there. They're important. Not game-breaking. You used the wrong comp. It would have been weird if you didn't lose.
  • benacrow
    2700 posts Member
    edited April 2017
    benacrow wrote: »
    [
    For one, I don't run Zaul, because I don't have him and I think it's dumb.

    But no, mods don't matter. I took my insanely modded Wiggs Chaze GK team, all max gear, and lost to this scrub the other day who ran Zaul DN EP Sid SA. His SA was G10.

    You used paper vs scissors. Yea. Mods won't help you there. They're important. Not game-breaking. You used the wrong comp. It would have been weird if you didn't lose.

    My guildmate running Zaul DN EP GK Zid lost 3 times in a row to that team I used, and several others have said it's one of the hardest teams they've faced. It's not the team. It can literally beat anything. I lost because of rng to some scrub who has no business in even coming close to beating my comp without all rng.
    FN 2187, Mighty Chlorians (spelt with a lowercase l not a capital I): Heroic AAT Guide, The Gear Grind
  • Your guild mates are nice people. :)
  • benacrow
    2700 posts Member
    Your guild mates are nice people. :)

    I also fall less on defense (holds top 10) while that other scrub falls out of the top 20. Trust me when I say it's not the matchup that was bad. The problem is that my far far superior mods and better gearing made no difference in the outcome. That scrub didn't even run a tank ffs. That sort of thing shouldn't ever happen, but this meta allows highly unworthy comps of beating those far out of their league, and downgrades much of the progression that veteran players have earned compared to those still trying to find their feet.
    FN 2187, Mighty Chlorians (spelt with a lowercase l not a capital I): Heroic AAT Guide, The Gear Grind
  • Ig88isboss
    1752 posts Member
    edited April 2017
    :lol: :lol: what an ironic title! Dude, it's the fact that zaul completely centralizes the metagame and has turned arena to 'zaul and his counters'. It's horrible gameplay. Please try to be objective.
  • benacrow
    2700 posts Member
    Ig88isboss wrote: »
    :lol: :lol: what an ironic title! Dude, it's the fact that zaul completely centralizes the metagame and has turned arena to 'zaul and his counters'. It's horrible gameplay. Please try to be objective.

    Lol yes this sums it up very well. In my top 20 right now, there are only 2 teams that aren't Zaul, Rex, or DN leads.
    FN 2187, Mighty Chlorians (spelt with a lowercase l not a capital I): Heroic AAT Guide, The Gear Grind
  • LastJedi
    3047 posts Member
    edited April 2017
    "Isn't that the whole point? Finding out what the flavor of the month is and adapting to it? Maybe hedging your bets by farming some reliables like B2?"
    Yes. This is true. Zaul is just the scapegoat, because on most of our shards, he is what is ushering in the new era. On your shard, maybe everyone has 7 zetas already, and only scrubs dont' have GK and chaze and rex and zqgj and zoda and zylo etc, ad infinitum.

    Flavor of the month it is, but for most of us it takes several months to get a taste. For most mere mortals, this means zaul is the only way they can play before it's over. You can play the rock. Or you can buy the paper. And until enough people get the paper, your scissors are useless.
  • AnUnusedName
    56 posts Member
    edited April 2017
    Objectively, I see a lot of zaul teams and a lot of people complaining about it as if there's nothing they can do without divine intervention (aka pestering the devs for a nerf)

    I don't see lots of zauls are some inherent problem. Darth maul is cool. Lots of people farmed him. Now he's good. Lots of people play him.

    You're having a hard time beating him and his posse with your current line up? Change something. The fact you're being forced to think does not imply there is anything wrong with the game's balance. In fact, it's showing the depth of game play there is to offer. If you don't want to deal with that... then dont. Farm your favorite characters until the next meta and see if you feel like adopting or adapting to that.

    But that's it. I'm going to stop preaching now.

    **takes a bow**
  • LastJedi
    3047 posts Member
    edited April 2017
    Ur smart. At least your rear is. :)
    I didn't say it is a problem. I said it is annoying to me, personally. And that this is why there are so many complaints.

    I am doing something about it. And it's fine. And by the time I'm done doing something about it, people might be complaining that my team is OP. Who knows?

    I haven't been top 10 for months, even before zaul showed up. So it wasn't drop in ranks that was annoying. It was the flood of almost identical squads and the realization that the only way I can reliably participate in this new meta before it changes is to also use the same squad. For many people, this will be the case, as it was for Wiggs. But Wiggs really had more accessible options for beating it on offense, IMO. Zaul is pretty tall wall to climb over, even to briefly get a peek over the top. I don't really remember being blocked out by walls of straight Wiggs teams. Nor droids before. And if there weren't ways around, there were ways to go straight thru... without needing months of farming and GK-type toons. Maybe not good enough to hold rank or get to payouts, but it could be done in a pinch. There were loopholes to worm your way up and sit at the big boy table, once in awhile. I'm not having a hard time beating Zaul teams. I have found it to be impossible.
  • Another turkey voting for christmas. You might have missed the last year and a half of swgoh/duration of the game, where one or two specific teams rule all for months on end and you do nothing but fight the same teams every day. Its not very good.

  • tRRRey wrote: »
    It's easier to complain and expect sympathy than to actually develop a strategic squad (hint: there already are some)

    +1
  • MrGrips
    521 posts Member
    Zaul guys: You can counter zaul, didnt you know?

    Nerf guys: Zaul makes the meta much lamer.


    You guys realize that these arguments dont defeat each other right? Its like youre not even on the same page. I agree with Ig88isboss at least a little bit:
    Ig88isboss wrote: »
    :lol: :lol: what an ironic title! Dude, it's the fact that zaul completely centralizes the metagame and has turned arena to 'zaul and his counters'. It's horrible gameplay. Please try to be objective.

    And also agree that zaul can be countered. Plz "be smart" and realize counters existing doesnt equal "great meta".
  • Olga
    1333 posts Member
    There will never be great meta. This is a mobile game about collecting and improving your favourite heroes, not some an e-sport, despite what people here think. It's not about balance or razor-thin strategy. It's just for fun. The fact people take it so seriously is their own choice, but devs don't need to accomodate them just because they want the game to be something it isn't.

  • MrGrips
    521 posts Member
    Olga wrote: »
    There will never be great meta. This is a mobile game about collecting and improving your favourite heroes, not some an e-sport, despite what people here think. It's not about balance or razor-thin strategy. It's just for fun. The fact people take it so seriously is their own choice, but devs don't need to accomodate them just because they want the game to be something it isn't.

    Just to be clear, I agree w/ this too actually so I dont rlly complain about Zaul at all (I run him :smile: ) but Its still annoying on a logical level for people to misinterpret everyone who complains about Zaul and respond with "Zaul can be countered." even tho most people complaining about Zaul arent saying "Zaul is flat out unbeatable."
  • leef
    12327 posts Member
    you don't have to be dumb to not want to, or being unable to adapt.
    Save water, drink champagne!
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