Complaining about Zaul but being OK with Chaze?

Prev1345
Really, have you forgotten while Zaul was necessary in the first place? Let me remind you, the Rogue One movie came out and to try to sale as many characters from the movie (almost all lightside for some reason) devs decided to cram almost all the abilities in the game in just 2 toons. Lo and behold the Chaze meta appeared, to complete and not replace the Wiggs meta that was in full effect since August '16. After some months when the time finally came to shift the meta from rebels, Krennic and DT were release. But surprise, surprise they failed miserably, even though their kit would have been very good, close to OP, if they would have been released before Chaze.
So now, after the devs painted themselves into a corner, they only had 2 choices: either the sensible one to tweak the rebels, but that would have made the people in the title mad, or to release/ rework something even more OP than rebels, which invariably made the people in the title mad.
Anyway after this little recent history lesson, let me ask you, how can you possible complain about the necessary evil while being fine with the root cause that made it necessary in the first place? Chaze aren't OP, just versatile, because of Boba and B2? Horse manure, B2 and Boba
were just enough to seem they were a challenge but not good enough to actually threaten Rebel users, just like you like it, that was why you were dominating leader boards wasn't it? Heck even with Zaul lead added to this counters Chaze is still plenty represented in the leader boards. Zaul is killing every other team outside Rex triple cleanse (which actually include your faves) ? Guess what, that is exactly what rebels were doing since Wiggs. Over 100 toons made irrelevant and unplayable in arenas by 2 OP pairs of rebels. That is exactly what Wiggs is still doing on lower levels now, after a year.

Replies

  • CSirstins
    55 posts Member
    +1000

    At least zaul teams have a synergy for the most part (sith) but chaze is thrown onto so many squads it's crazy
  • Juex777
    968 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    Come on really? Haven't you got your counter for them already? It's not like the toons that counter them aren't also awesome
  • Olga
    1333 posts Member
    Maybe they painted themselves in a corner but at least it's forced them to be creative. Character synergies and abilities are a lot more complex and unique now than they used to be. Early characters are plain bread and butter.
  • Boreas
    508 posts Member
    My only problem with Zaul is the unfair advantage of tm gain at the start, with the use of SA all team attacking first, which grants relatively weaker squads a huge advantage, I have no problem beating them anyway, the problem is they break the defense easily so get on top easily. This should not be that easy, an unfair advantage against strategy and building. Good for lazy people who follow the meta like sheep. As for Chaze, they are not easy to beat, it's a challenge, but I like beating Chaze teams.

    P.s.: I run a Nihilus lead Sith team, no Zaul, no chaze, no Rex, no GK.
  • Eyi
    209 posts Member
    CSirstins wrote: »
    +1000

    At least zaul teams have a synergy for the most part (sith) but chaze is thrown onto so many squads it's crazy

    Chaze is fckn unfair

    Baze is broken with his stupid aoe
  • unit900000
    626 posts Member
    everything has a weakness its up to you to find it and exploit it. the only character that even comes close to having no weaknesses is zavage.
  • Boreas wrote: »
    My only problem with Zaul is the unfair advantage of tm gain at the start, with the use of SA all team attacking first, which grants relatively weaker squads a huge advantage, I have no problem beating them anyway, the problem is they break the defense easily so get on top easily. This should not be that easy, an unfair advantage against strategy and building. Good for lazy people who follow the meta like sheep. As for Chaze, they are not easy to beat, it's a challenge, but I like beating Chaze teams.

    P.s.: I run a Nihilus lead Sith team, no Zaul, no chaze, no Rex, no GK.

    What SA is doing now is just what SThan was and is still doing for rebels from the start. I do not use her, or sith trooper, SO or any other sith from the meta, but I had to replace EP as a leader with Zaul just for him to have a chance of surviving against Wiggs oneshoot, since Baze makes Biggs unblockable. I also had to replace my so called counter Boba with Nihilus because he wasn't good enough against the toons he was supposed to counter. I started playing with jedi but I had to change my plans because of Wiggs, then the empire wasn't good enough when Chaze appeared, I know people that quit the game because of rebels, but somehow Zaul is the problem in this game.
  • BTW while necessity forced me to use Zaul, I didn't make this thread because I do not want him gone, or because I feel he is not OP. Unlike rebel fans/users. I actually admit he is OP and bad for the game. I was really hoping that empire pass will actually make them viable for usage in arena so I can remove his leadership.

    What drives me crazy is the double standard. Rebels were and still are at lot worse than Zaul, and that for a year now, not 3 months like the sith. The same people that complain about Zaul didn't have a problem with rebels doing the same thing on a far larger scale. They don't have a problem that they are still doing the same in newer shards.

    So not only I don't have a problem with Zaul being gone, I wish it. As long as he takes the rebel with him.

    Also about the counters, before I used Zaul, I used an EP lead Vader TFP Boba B2 team, choke full of toons that people like to throw out as counters for both Wiggs and Chaze. Guess what, even though I had better mods than almost all players in my shard, until I replaced TFP with Maul and put him as a leader I couldn't dislodge rebels from the top spots in my leaderboard. So like I said this is really the issue here, not that Zaul is killing diversity, like their rebels are doing for a year, is that Zaul is actually a real counter to them.
  • Chaze is just over-loaded to the core. Yes, there are counters, but zMaul had counters, and that's how we ended up with 2 teams being viable in arena for a while. Just because something can be countered, doesn't mean that they're not OP.

    For example, imagine there's a character who instantly kills all enemies at the start of the match. Just because there also, hypothetically, a few characters who stop that effect, doesn't mean the first character isn't OP. It's still forcing every team to use either the OP toon or one of its counters. If you don't want to use any of those characters or they don't fit into your squad, sucks to be you.
  • Robbathehutt
    1043 posts Member
    General Kenobi(L), Baze, Chirrut Imwe, Zeta Bariss, & Zeta Fives is great fun to face in GW....
  • Boreas
    508 posts Member
    Boreas wrote: »
    My only problem with Zaul is the unfair advantage of tm gain at the start, with the use of SA all team attacking first, which grants relatively weaker squads a huge advantage, I have no problem beating them anyway, the problem is they break the defense easily so get on top easily. This should not be that easy, an unfair advantage against strategy and building. Good for lazy people who follow the meta like sheep. As for Chaze, they are not easy to beat, it's a challenge, but I like beating Chaze teams.

    P.s.: I run a Nihilus lead Sith team, no Zaul, no chaze, no Rex, no GK.

    What SA is doing now is just what SThan was and is still doing for rebels from the start. I do not use her, or sith trooper, SO or any other sith from the meta, but I had to replace EP as a leader with Zaul just for him to have a chance of surviving against Wiggs oneshoot, since Baze makes Biggs unblockable. I also had to replace my so called counter Boba with Nihilus because he wasn't good enough against the toons he was supposed to counter. I started playing with jedi but I had to change my plans because of Wiggs, then the empire wasn't good enough when Chaze appeared, I know people that quit the game because of rebels, but somehow Zaul is the problem in this game.

    I'm not using SA either, I run a team with Nihilus lead, EP, Zavage, DS and Sith Trooper, and I'm the only one in my bracket who uses DS and Sith Trooper, because I want to have a team with some personality, not just some cheap copy-cat team and I'll try to replace EP with DT soon, what I was trying to say is, in my arena bracket most who were using Wiggs, STHan, Lando etc. are now using Zaul, SA etc. I was referring to those in general "who follow the meta like sheep", which I believe they'll just skip to any team to dominate, I'm having fun with all Zaul and Rex teams trying dominate my shard and I'm fighting my best against them all alone.
  • Shaunyvee
    908 posts Member
    Chaze doesn't stop my extremely hard farmed ZETA RESISTANCE and extremely hard farmed FULL ZETA FIRST ORDER teams from being able to take a single turn.

    What a disgustingly stupid thread.
  • OFC if you don't have double standards you are not a hypocrite

    chirut baze was meta and still stays up now but maulu o no noot maul

    resistance sucks it can do well on manual but no wayon auto

    maul meta is balanced sry haters

    +9999
  • Shaunyvee
    908 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    Resistance can't do anything on manual against zaul, what are you on about?

    Edit* even with 200 speed on all 5 resistance toons you ain't touching zaul.

    Edit times 2.

    A full first order squad with FOUR ZETAS. F.O.U.R ZETAS. Relies on flat out RNG to beat a zaul team on OFFENSE.

    Read that again, FOUR ZETAS.

    sigh
  • The Chaze combo is genuinely just incredibly obnoxious and frustrating to play against.

    It just seems as if it doesn't have any weakness to it and no way of getting past it. Debuffs are turned against you, and their counter chance means their damage is bloody relentless. Furthermore, they are in literally every arena team, no matter whether they have synergy with the other toons or not. It seems crazy to me that two characters can be so broken without getting a nerf for such a long time.

    How can having auto-taunt, % max health gain, % max health damage, counter chance, heal over time effects, calling to assist, dispells and tenacity up in two characters be considered at all fair?

    Credits go to Gabbuzzzzz17 for making this post on Reddit.
    SWGOH.gg profile - Our guild, 3720 to 1, has 1 spot open! [49/50].
  • If I may offer an objective perspective;

    I run a pure First Order squad, and have to fight my way through Sith, Rebels and Rex squads in order to rank first or second. The funny thing is all of those factions will use Chaze, and for the most part I enjoy fighting against them, but the only squad that ever really get frustrated with is the top ranking squad.

    Zaul, Savage, Nihilus and Chaze, but it isn't Chaze that's frustrating, it's the fact that even with some of the best speed secondaries on my shard, the sith are guaranteed to go first. Maul never dazes less than 4 of my toons, followed by Nihilus' AOE increasing cool downs.

    I'm not claiming Maul needs to be nerfed or anything, as I am occasionally able to come back from that, but it seems like his lead would be pretty insane without the starting turn meter bonus.

    So it always makes me laugh a bit when I see people complaining about Chaze, they are definitely powerful toons, but as someone with no horse in this particular race, I have to say it's only against Zaul that I ever feel truly frustrated.

    I'm not calling for any nerfs, and I don't think anyone would accuse the FO of being OP, so hopefully this can be taken in the objective manner it's intended, but when it comes to Chaze vs Zaul, it's pretty obvious to me which one is more powerful.
  • If I may offer an objective perspective;

    I run a pure First Order squad, and have to fight my way through Sith, Rebels and Rex squads in order to rank first or second. The funny thing is all of those factions will use Chaze, and for the most part I enjoy fighting against them, but the only squad that ever really get frustrated with is the top ranking squad.

    Zaul, Savage, Nihilus and Chaze, but it isn't Chaze that's frustrating, it's the fact that even with some of the best speed secondaries on my shard, the sith are guaranteed to go first. Maul never dazes less than 4 of my toons, followed by Nihilus' AOE increasing cool downs.

    I'm not claiming Maul needs to be nerfed or anything, as I am occasionally able to come back from that, but it seems like his lead would be pretty insane without the starting turn meter bonus.

    So it always makes me laugh a bit when I see people complaining about Chaze, they are definitely powerful toons, but as someone with no horse in this particular race, I have to say it's only against Zaul that I ever feel truly frustrated.

    I'm not calling for any nerfs, and I don't think anyone would accuse the FO of being OP, so hopefully this can be taken in the objective manner it's intended, but when it comes to Chaze vs Zaul, it's pretty obvious to me which one is more powerful.

    I agree that Zaul is more OP than Chaze, and I have acknowledged that in the first post. My point is that to actually shift the meta from rebels there needed to be someone significantly more powerful than them. Chaze being so OP in the first place prompted this level of OP-ness for Zaul, and as long as the root cause is not addressed the problem will persist.
  • tharduskafka
    474 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    Right. Sorry if it seemed like I was missing the point, I understand you're admitting that Zaul may be OP, and it's great that you're not blindly sticking up for a faction.

    I was just trying to offer some perspective as someone who doesn't use either squad, but has to fight them both.
  • No offense taken. I don't even like Zaul, I only use him because for me, a newer player that hadn't had time to farm 4 zetas so he can deal with a rebel team without any zeta, is the only way I can be competitive on my shard full of rebels. I will be happy when he is made irrelevant as long as a real alternative to rebels is available/ rebels will be made as irrelevant as him.
  • SpendsAlot
    379 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    I agree about chaze teams, no 2 characters should have 10 total abilities that synergize with at least half back n forth so well that the 2 characters can be put in any team and be god-like.

    These 2 characters help destroy almost any counter to a counter, just add your mix of 3 new meta characters with chaze and you are golden, zaul meta? Add a chaze, rex meta? Add a chaze, r2-d2? Add a chaze, gk? Add a chaze, zavage? Add a chaze, zylo? Add a chaze. Leadership skill doesn't even matter add a chaze, nihilus meta? Add a chaze
  • It is pretty ridiculous how they can fit in any squad, I guess I just haven't found them as difficult and/or annoying as some people do.
    No offense taken. I don't even like Zaul, I only use him because for me, a newer player that hadn't had time to farm 4 zetas so he can deal with a rebel team without any zeta, is the only way I can be competitive on my shard full of rebels. I will be happy when he is made irrelevant as long as a real alternative to rebels is available/ rebels will be made as irrelevant as him.

    Understood.

    It is a bit hypocritical, I agree, and lord it was annoying having nothing but Rebels to fight while I was working on the full FO squad.
    For what it's worth, I'm almost to level 85, but no Zeta's yet, should be getting Phasma's soon.

    Honestly was a bit surprised that this squad was viable in arena, I'm lucky that there's a good mix of squads in my shard. If it was all Zaul, I don't think we'd be doing nearly as well.
  • leef
    11246 posts Member
    i don't understand this thread. People aren't allowed to whine about maul if they aren't whining about rebels?
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • SpendsAlot
    379 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    I think his point is, chaze is too versatile

    Zaul is not versatile
  • warmonkey
    1314 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    Whoever designed and/or approved it made history by showing exactly how not to design a game character in a competitve fighting game.

    Giving two toons every good ability in game and then NOT realizing how that would effect all character releases afterwards in arena tells me they were designed for the sole purpose to get a quick boost in sales.
  • zhtd17
    664 posts Member
    warmonkey wrote: »
    Whoever designed and/or approved it made history by showing exactly how not to design a game character in a competitve fighting game.

    Giving two toons every good ability in game and then NOT realizing how that would effect all character releases afterwards in arena tells me they were designed for the sole purpose to get a quick boost in sales.

    +1
  • I agree with this post..my shard is only around 9 months old but let me tell you..chaze are EVERYWHERE.. and i have a really powerful empire team my Tfp always goes 1st and ability blocks but im telling you chaze wiggs is so demoralising
  • Huatimus
    3357 posts Member
    Chaze just rose to a new power level with the addition of R2D2. Probably going to have to start farming them.
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