Meta vs Skills, where do we go from here?

Rumpelstilzchen
1754 posts Member
edited May 2017
With the release of each shiny new hero, the thin thread holding the game in what is perceived as "balance" once referred to as "disrupt" is stretched sending the game further from reality and beyond fantasy. In HoDA the same system is employed, and damage went from thousands of points of damage to millions (not exagerating). This system rendered once viable heroes to the verge of complete obsolescence, requiring an across the board revamp. Much like the recent batch of revamps we have seen for Empire, etc..

So where do we go from here? Will unending vertical escalation be the norm, and skill is no longer needed? We just visit the forums, and duplicate what everyone has already done, rinse and repeat? It would seem so, I just don't think that skill has any place here. Oh, perhaps some. A few do the thinking, the rest parrot them.

Your thoughts?

Replies

  • Veritasum
    753 posts Member
    I understand people talk about sheep and copying and apparently "parrot." But what else do you presume to happen? Unless you are a whale or above, it takes weeks, often months to take a toon from around 3 stars to arena viable and that includes mods and leveling mods.

    So if a bunch of people in the forums and on YouTube rave about Chaze, Nihilus, etc. What exactly do you expect the vast majority of players to do (the f2p and non whales+). To go against the grain and spend weeks and months leveling toons to experiment several months later when their team is ready?

    The answer is no. They will work on toons that are at least proven to compete because most want to compete. Unless the business model of the game changes for needing several hundred dollars per hero to make them arena viable in a short time, this will never change. You ask where the game goes from here? The same place it is today.

    As far as "vertical escalation," that has been stymied since Chaze. I would hardly argue that the Rebels, Gar, Emp Commando and R2 are vertical escalations. Furthermore, none of the revamps have been over the top for any single character.

    So status quo until the business of the game does not require hundreds and thousands of dollars to quickly level and gear teams to experiment with. In other words, don't hold your breath.
  • Fair points, can we expect any game of this type to be any different? Is it a choice of the developers, or is it simply the only viable solution?
  • LastJedi
    3047 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    I made a similar post yesterday. It seems like compared to last year, I am now relying on trial and error and past experience, rather than saying "oh, this enemy squad is a problem because of A and B. And I can use this X toon to counter A, Y toon to counter B." Now you have to be omniscient to realize all the ramifications of changing out a toon, and you need to be rainman to figure out what the turn order is going to roughly be.

    The way zeta skills are going... you're going to need to download a pdf to make them readable, lol. And the butterfly effect will get more and more complex.
  • J7Luke
    484 posts Member
    The only redeeming factor about this game is that different characters are needed for different things. Yes there may be a certain team or two that will dominate in the arena, but for raids, GW, ship battles, mod battles, events, etc. different teams are needed. This ensures that random jawa guy, droid that no one cares about, and that character that was all the rage a year ago, while useless for the arena, will still be useful to you in some way.

    Don't take what I said the wrong way, I still agree with you. This game, like most, seems to have fallen into the pattern of release new OP character, get the whales to cash in, wait a month or so, either nerf said character or release a counter for it, and repeat.
  • Gank_Killer
    1817 posts Member
    Free players pretty much have to copy the whales if they want to have any measure of success. Gearing up a garbage character to max only come to find out that they're utterly useless (OG Boba). How long does it take to max that garbage character, months! If it weren't so difficult to get top tier gear, there would be a larger pool of original squads. Until gear becomes more easily accessible, there is only going to be "meta chasers". Of course there are always exceptions like Aero, gearing up his all Empire Troopers before the rework. Brave soul.
  • Veritasum
    753 posts Member
    Fair points, can we expect any game of this type to be any different? Is it a choice of the developers, or is it simply the only viable solution?

    It's just money and the gambling model. Casinos go up all the time because people don't stop. Win or lose, people find a way to keep gambling. Same for this game and others like it. Notice that almost anything you can purchase in game is tied to a "chance" for 30 shards or 5, etc. Even the free stuff all goes back to this wheel of luck, like what gear you get out of HAAT. Win or lose, people keep coming back to it whether it's spending time or money or both.

    It is interesting that the current number of packs in the store are a traditional straight forward sale of content for a fixed amount. It could signal a shift in the business model and maybe more people start competing with the big time gamblers (notice even the term whale is a casino term).

    Obviously, all companies know gambling is more addictive than shopping so that's what they'll swing for. But as evidenced by the Trooper packs, lets see if that model persists and how it impacts the game. I suspect that will take several months to affect any change.
  • Rumpelstilzchen
    1754 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    Free players pretty much have to copy the whales if they want to have any measure of success. Gearing up a garbage character to max only come to find out that they're utterly useless (OG Boba). How long does it take to max that garbage character, months! If it weren't so difficult to get top tier gear, there would be a larger pool of original squads. Until gear becomes more easily accessible, there is only going to be "meta chasers". Of course there are always exceptions like Aero, gearing up his all Empire Troopers before the rework. Brave soul.

    Sometimes we get lucky, I built my Sith/Empire team because I wanted one, and by sheer dumb luck the revamp happened around the same time. But to be fair, I did employ some logic learned from my mmo life. Crowd control, Burst DPS etc..
  • J7Luke
    484 posts Member
    Free players pretty much have to copy the whales if they want to have any measure of success. Gearing up a garbage character to max only come to find out that they're utterly useless (OG Boba). How long does it take to max that garbage character, months! If it weren't so difficult to get top tier gear, there would be a larger pool of original squads. Until gear becomes more easily accessible, there is only going to be "meta chasers". Of course there are always exceptions like Aero, gearing up his all Empire Troopers before the rework. Brave soul.

    Wait, are you saying not to gear up Boba? I'm being serious. I've been gearing Boba as priority number one since I first got the game.

  • LastJedi
    3047 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    Boba is fine. He is valuable in arena and in raids. But in the long run, DN somewhat surpasses/replaces him in almost every top arena build. My DN is still baking, and my boba is good enough to compete with most of the top squads if you stick him with 3 or 4 other meta toons. :)

    Problem with Boba is it is easier to kill boba twice than to kill DN, lol. And his execute has to be timed right and won't always finish... it's more rng. DN AOE trumps Boba ability block, because it "blocks" even when the other toons specials are on cooldown and can't be resisted... And DN applies healing immunity and he debuffs on his basic... So DN is pretty much better than Boba, esp on defense.

    DN works on most of the best arena squads.. Sith, Rex, Empire, Jedi... you name it. He works. Boba can work with Rex and Empire, too.... just not quite as good on defense, IMO. You can use both of them on a Rex lead squad, though..... if you don't have GK or Chaze.

    Just imagine how AI is gonna use your Boba vs DN. DN can't really be misplayed.

    Boba is a good pilot, too. Esp with ackbar capital. Boba is solid, IMO. I was disappointed with him, at first, but the difference between Boba and DN in arena is not that great. It's the other toons that make the diff. I.e. GK, chaze, rex.
    Post edited by LastJedi on
  • sjkerhfgdjhd
    1009 posts Member
    LastJedi wrote: »
    Boba is fine. He is valuable in arena and in raids. But in the long run, DN somewhat surpasses/replaces him in almost every top arena build. My DN is still baking, and my boba is good enough to compete with most of the top squads if you stick him with 3 or 4 other meta toons. :)

    I use both in my Zader squad, but if I had to remove just one it would actually be Nihilus. Being able to put a 2 turn ability block anywhere you want regardless of taunts is just too valuable to let go. That being said, there are so few teams with all three cleansers on my shard that I can afford to avoid them, on a more advanced shards the fast ability block loses value as you are too likely to miss one cleanse, and then all the AB is gone.
  • Liath
    5140 posts Member
    J7Luke wrote: »
    Free players pretty much have to copy the whales if they want to have any measure of success. Gearing up a garbage character to max only come to find out that they're utterly useless (OG Boba). How long does it take to max that garbage character, months! If it weren't so difficult to get top tier gear, there would be a larger pool of original squads. Until gear becomes more easily accessible, there is only going to be "meta chasers". Of course there are always exceptions like Aero, gearing up his all Empire Troopers before the rework. Brave soul.

    Wait, are you saying not to gear up Boba? I'm being serious. I've been gearing Boba as priority number one since I first got the game.

    He's probably talking about the old Boba prior to his rework.
  • sjkerhfgdjhd
    1009 posts Member
    Anyways, to reply to the actual topic, power creep is inevitable in any game of this type. The Rogue One squad was a huge jump that broke the progression, but since then the Devs have actually been pretty good about keeping power levels steady while they do faction passes and bring out new toons to balance the game before the upwards progression resumes.
  • LastJedi
    3047 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    That being said, there are so few teams with all three cleansers on my shard that I can afford to avoid them, on a more advanced shards the fast ability block loses value as you are too likely to miss one cleanse, and then all the AB is gone.
    This, too. On a new shard, Boba will reign for a long time. If meta isn't fully entrenched, a Zeta Boba will chew through a lot of non meta squads, lol.
  • J7Luke wrote: »
    Free players pretty much have to copy the whales if they want to have any measure of success. Gearing up a garbage character to max only come to find out that they're utterly useless (OG Boba). How long does it take to max that garbage character, months! If it weren't so difficult to get top tier gear, there would be a larger pool of original squads. Until gear becomes more easily accessible, there is only going to be "meta chasers". Of course there are always exceptions like Aero, gearing up his all Empire Troopers before the rework. Brave soul.

    Wait, are you saying not to gear up Boba? I'm being serious. I've been gearing Boba as priority number one since I first got the game.

    OG - Original Gangsta, pre revamp :)
  • Big_Boss
    2326 posts Member
    This game is strategy not skill
  • Big_Boss wrote: »
    This game is strategy not skill

    Is not the ability to formulate and enact good strategy in it self a skill?
  • It's all about getting the skills.
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  • I'll tell you what's next... Alpha abilities. Or iota abilities. Or some other Greek letter or something. You'll need 50 per ability and they can only be obtained by completing the as-yet-unreleased vehicle challenges.

    I mean really, I could see some new form of ability some time in the distant future when everyone has Zetas on practically every toon.

    Also, higher-than-five dot mods, a higher level cap, six ability/uniques per super toon, etc.

    It won't be a wonderful time to start a new account though... Ugh.
    The field of battle is like the mongoose. Slow to joviality, but thirsty for morning sunshine.
    -Sun Tzu
  • Rumpelstilzchen
    1754 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    I'll tell you what's next... Alpha abilities. Or iota abilities. Or some other Greek letter or something. You'll need 50 per ability and they can only be obtained by completing the as-yet-unreleased vehicle challenges.

    I mean really, I could see some new form of ability some time in the distant future when everyone has Zetas on practically every toon.

    Also, higher-than-five dot mods, a higher level cap, six ability/uniques per super toon, etc.

    It won't be a wonderful time to start a new account though... Ugh.

    Indeed, I reset my tab today so I had to suffer through the slow motion (1x) playback of the tutorial .. factor in power creep, and new players are sooooo far behind, it's not even worth thinking about.
  • Okay new thought. How can any team in Arena be considered balanced if it takes several teams to beat it in GW?
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