Chaze Breaks Tactical Part of Game - Don't Nerf, but Let's Learn some Lessons

Replies

  • Honestly Chaze may have been OP at first but not so anymore. There are plenty of counters & they are quite manageable these days.
  • zhtd17
    948 posts Member
    You also didn't menti
    CUFCfan616 wrote: »
    I have no issue with toons having ludicrous abilities compared to other toons in game, but in terms of Star Wars lore I really question who they choose to give those abilities to. Baze & Chirrut are bit players in a 'spin off' movie. Biggs and Wedge are bit players in the OT (Biggs didn't even do anything of note but still gets massive boosts against empire for some reason).

    I don't think anyone would be complaining as much if the Chaze combo was on someone like Yoda & Windu (the synergy would be screaming to be called Yondu and we could then have GoTG references all over the place), or Emperor Palp and Vader. But no, these are overlooked to make throwaway characters the cheesiest moves in game. I know this game is in no way lore and doesn't try to be, but it could at least try and stay true to the source material when handing out these kinds of synergies

    +1
  • LastJedi
    3047 posts Member
    I got chaze cuz he was so op and worked with any 3 toons. Then i stopped playing arena for months while getting rex. Cuz chaze doesnt work with any 3 toons.

    I was competetive in arena with droids and with wiggs. I had maxed ep, plox yoda, rg, anni, and well lots of other toons. So, uh, just sayin.
  • Ig88isboss
    1752 posts Member
    The problem with chaze is that break the law of Balance, Jack of all trades but master of none, or extremely strong in one aspect but easily countered because of glaring weaknesses. Chaze is Jack of all trades master of all. Thus they are broken and if the devs had a clue would've never released them the way they are.
  • Wonder if it has something to do with the latest Hollywood trend of appealing to the Chinese audience to make more money.
    If my post get deleted, then you know I'm right hehe
  • Remember when people complained about QGJ being broken? Yeah. You miss those days
  • Diel
    109 posts Member
    Dave011679 wrote: »
    Instead of the common "nerf chaze" theme, we scale back their abilities when not under a Jyn lead/Rogue 1 team? I see the frustration of "Chaze and anyone else". Why not make them less viable with "anyone else"? That way it would require more team synergy to get the maximum results of Chaze.

    This would be equal to nerfing them, wouldn´t it?

    The key would be to open at least one door to beat them on the basis of strategic and tactical decisions. I would opt for an upgrade of existing toons. For the ones who are out of scope and currently to weak to be used in any field of the game. Doing so would probably require many players to star, level and gear those toons. Which means money. Not as much money as they get from new releases, but its still revenue wothout a major investment in development.

    For example:
    - Boba can ignore taunts. There are so many taunters around that this would be a nice way to attack Chirrut regardless of Baze taunt. And we had another strategic option to handle taunts in general.
    - Turn HoT into DoT. Why not turn all the 3 Billion Chirrut HoTs into 1 DoT. Or even turn a HoT into this no-Heal-Debuff.
  • PLEASE STOP THE CHAZE HATE. We've had enough of it.
  • Diel
    109 posts Member
    PLEASE STOP THE CHAZE HATE. We've had enough of it.

    Hate? Please calm down.
  • Diel wrote: »
    PLEASE STOP THE CHAZE HATE. We've had enough of it.

    Hate? Please calm down.

    The point is, everyone has been going around saying Chaze 'does everything better than everyone, makes everyone obsolete, is ridiculously op" etc. for 6 months. And we see a "Chaze is OP" thread every day or so...
  • Diel
    109 posts Member
    There are still people who experience this Chaze issue for the first time. I started playing in late November 2016. No zetas, no 50 7* star toons on gear level 10 or 11. The game should work for all for us.
  • JohnnySteelAlpha
    2794 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    Diel wrote: »
    PLEASE STOP THE CHAZE HATE. We've had enough of it.

    Hate? Please calm down.

    The point is, everyone has been going around saying Chaze 'does everything better than everyone, makes everyone obsolete, is ridiculously op" etc. for 6 months. And we see a "Chaze is OP" thread every day or so...

    And if you're in a good arena shard that means for SSSIIIIXXXXX months you've fought nothing but Chaze and had to do the awful heal / taunt / ten up / taunt / counter attack OVER AND OVER AND OVER :)

    The devs must feel the hate because something that strong just lives through every meta - it never dies and it doesn't look to be fading away anytime soon. With R2, it is in fact even stronger. So yeah, it's 6 months old, but it's picking up steam with each release. The dark side pass, with DN, just made Chaze even better. How the heck does that happen in a Dark Side push? Maul was OP as heck with his leader and those Sith - yet Chaze base squads were decidedly better. The Maul fake meta was over before it started on my leaderboard.

    Let's not see something this awful ever constructed again. Not only the strength and utility aspect, but the terrible fight rhythm here. It's just a long, drawn out and boring fight with taunt spam, totally excessive heals from ridiculous amounts of HoTs, assists, and constant counter attacks. Throw in GK and R2 and now you have foresight spam to meander through....and there's really no end in sight. These guys are solidly out in front of the roster. Unless there's a massive shakeup, you can bank on another 6 months of Chaze. The hate for Chaze is only getting started for many - their ownership / build rate is only going up over time.
  • Chaze is still crazy over powered. Sorry, but it is. I ran into a Chaze team on GW at node six. They weren't event maxed, but both my maxed QGJ Jedi team AND maxed Clone team (combined power of over 98000 points) couldn't even kill one of them. Even with Annakin; they just ignore heal block completely. I'm sorry, but there's no balance at all in two toons that can do that. CG messed this one up, but won't admit it. It's that simple.
  • Jedi_Reach_
    1337 posts Member
    Olddumper wrote: »
    This was well put. It's not that they are tough to beat. It's just that they are vanilla ice cream. 6 months later and you can still just drop them in any old squad you want.
    We have been saying this since last year. Chaze is killing the game's 'fun' factor. Boring to fight against, boring to use, win or lose.
  • Jedi_Reach_
    1337 posts Member
    Ig88isboss wrote: »
    The problem with chaze is that break the law of Balance, Jack of all trades but master of none, or extremely strong in one aspect but easily countered because of glaring weaknesses. Chaze is Jack of all trades master of all. Thus they are broken and if the devs had a clue would've never released them the way they are.
    This is still true, no matter how much people want to sidestep this. Waez had great posts addressing the balance factors as well.
  • fascizio
    572 posts Member
    Chaze is still crazy over powered. Sorry, but it is. I ran into a Chaze team on GW at node six. They weren't event maxed, but both my maxed QGJ Jedi team AND maxed Clone team (combined power of over 98000 points) couldn't even kill one of them. Even with Annakin; they just ignore heal block completely. I'm sorry, but there's no balance at all in two toons that can do that. CG messed this one up, but won't admit it. It's that simple.

    They don't ignore heal block. Either you were attacking TenUp toons or you have potency/rng issues, but heal block is most definitely a solid way of dealing with them.
    Diel wrote: »
    ...
    For example:
    - Boba can ignore taunts. There are so many taunters around that this would be a nice way to attack Chirrut regardless of Baze taunt. And we had another strategic option to handle taunts in general.

    This brings up an interesting point. There are quite a few characters that could thematically make sense to ignore taunt. Why would the droids care about a taunt for example, or it can be rolled into Mace's shatterpoint unique to also ignore taunt.

    I don't know how far that would go though as far as Chaze is concerned. The taunt ignoring character would have to essentially have some amount of pressure they could apply in their own right for that to be effective. Mace certainly doesn't fit that bill.
  • Diel wrote: »
    PLEASE STOP THE CHAZE HATE. We've had enough of it.

    Hate? Please calm down.

    The point is, everyone has been going around saying Chaze 'does everything better than everyone, makes everyone obsolete, is ridiculously op" etc. for 6 months. And we see a "Chaze is OP" thread every day or so...

    I'll suggest you a small exercise, remove Chaze from your arena team for a few days, ideally replace them with Chaze counters, and fight those days in your shard against Chaze teams. After that try and imagine how is like to do that for months in a row not days. Then we'll see if you will still have the inclination to came in every Chaze thread and complain about people complaining about Chaze. If you are afraid that you'll loose rank and crystals during this exercise, don't worry, is all part of the experience :wink:
  • fascizio
    572 posts Member

    Let's not see something this awful ever constructed again. Not only the strength and utility aspect, but the terrible fight rhythm here. It's just a long, drawn out and boring fight with taunt spam, totally excessive heals from ridiculous amounts of HoTs, assists, and constant counter attacks.

    I'm still not quite with you here though, you keep saying let's keep this from happening again, but it already pretty much has in GK Zarris. I mean...

    "Not only the strength and utility aspect, but the terrible fight rhythm here. It's just a long, drawn out and boring fight with taunt spam, totally excessive heals from [combined with] ridiculous amounts of HoTs [dispells], assists, and constant counter attacks. "

    It's not really any different... and that's reflected in Kenobi's higher usage rate than Chaze. We're living in a world of super duo's, a lot will have to change for that to be any different.
  • Zooey
    1607 posts Member
    fascizio wrote: »
    Chaze is still crazy over powered. Sorry, but it is. I ran into a Chaze team on GW at node six. They weren't event maxed, but both my maxed QGJ Jedi team AND maxed Clone team (combined power of over 98000 points) couldn't even kill one of them. Even with Annakin; they just ignore heal block completely. I'm sorry, but there's no balance at all in two toons that can do that. CG messed this one up, but won't admit it. It's that simple.

    They don't ignore heal block. Either you were attacking TenUp toons or you have potency/rng issues, but heal block is most definitely a solid way of dealing with them.
    Diel wrote: »
    ...
    For example:
    - Boba can ignore taunts. There are so many taunters around that this would be a nice way to attack Chirrut regardless of Baze taunt. And we had another strategic option to handle taunts in general.

    This brings up an interesting point. There are quite a few characters that could thematically make sense to ignore taunt. Why would the droids care about a taunt for example, or it can be rolled into Mace's shatterpoint unique to also ignore taunt.

    I don't know how far that would go though as far as Chaze is concerned. The taunt ignoring character would have to essentially have some amount of pressure they could apply in their own right for that to be effective. Mace certainly doesn't fit that bill.

    "Thematically avoiding taunt" is pretty much the worst argument ever lol. In what world do soldiers immediately stop what they're doing to attack a guy who's throwing insults at you?
  • fascizio
    572 posts Member
    Zooey wrote: »
    fascizio wrote: »
    Chaze is still crazy over powered. Sorry, but it is. I ran into a Chaze team on GW at node six. They weren't event maxed, but both my maxed QGJ Jedi team AND maxed Clone team (combined power of over 98000 points) couldn't even kill one of them. Even with Annakin; they just ignore heal block completely. I'm sorry, but there's no balance at all in two toons that can do that. CG messed this one up, but won't admit it. It's that simple.

    They don't ignore heal block. Either you were attacking TenUp toons or you have potency/rng issues, but heal block is most definitely a solid way of dealing with them.
    Diel wrote: »
    ...
    For example:
    - Boba can ignore taunts. There are so many taunters around that this would be a nice way to attack Chirrut regardless of Baze taunt. And we had another strategic option to handle taunts in general.

    This brings up an interesting point. There are quite a few characters that could thematically make sense to ignore taunt. Why would the droids care about a taunt for example, or it can be rolled into Mace's shatterpoint unique to also ignore taunt.

    I don't know how far that would go though as far as Chaze is concerned. The taunt ignoring character would have to essentially have some amount of pressure they could apply in their own right for that to be effective. Mace certainly doesn't fit that bill.

    "Thematically avoiding taunt" is pretty much the worst argument ever lol. In what world do soldiers immediately stop what they're doing to attack a guy who's throwing insults at you?

    It's not like that, the "thematic reason" for taunt in games has always been making something think you're the biggest threat. It's not like you taunt in WoW, for example, and you character starts lobbing Monty Python insults from a curtain wall or something....

    The point I was making was shatterpoint specifically finds a fault in opponents defenses, so Mace wouldn't be concerned about "a threatening presence" if he already identified the best way to end a fight is elsewhere.

  • Gaidal_Cain
    1640 posts Member
    A lead ability for either Tarkin or the incoming Thrawn that grants offense and speed for every buffed enemy would be a wonderful counter to Chaze.

    That being said, there are only 3 Chaze teams in my top 50 (May '16 shard) so the OP Chaze still hasn't caught on.
  • i dont see why anyone will say that Chaze dont need a nerf.
    as the OP posted, their ability to do so much is just... stupid. i find myself not even trying to kill baze normal way, i try to eat out his health while ignore protection with SA, and execute with savage. it just hurt my eyes to attack him so much and it does nothing. the tankiness is already a bit too much, but with the buff removal ? comon.
    and this chirrut... how an attacker can give so much HoT to everyone.
    both of them just make no sense, and the amount of squads they counter is ridiculous.
    add rex and GK and here's a team i can win, but i dont want to play against. really not fun fight.
    i call nerf aswell. enough with this.
  • Jedi_Reach_
    1337 posts Member
    Diel wrote: »
    PLEASE STOP THE CHAZE HATE. We've had enough of it.

    Hate? Please calm down.

    The point is, everyone has been going around saying Chaze 'does everything better than everyone, makes everyone obsolete, is ridiculously op" etc. for 6 months. And we see a "Chaze is OP" thread every day or so...

    I'll suggest you a small exercise, remove Chaze from your arena team for a few days, ideally replace them with Chaze counters, and fight those days in your shard against Chaze teams. After that try and imagine how is like to do that for months in a row not days. Then we'll see if you will still have the inclination to came in every Chaze thread and complain about people complaining about Chaze. If you are afraid that you'll loose rank and crystals during this exercise, don't worry, is all part of the experience :wink:
    Logic? Reason? Here? Are you out of your mind? :smiley:
  • Diel
    109 posts Member
    Zooey wrote: »

    "Thematically avoiding taunt" is pretty much the worst argument ever lol. In what world do soldiers immediately stop what they're doing to attack a guy who's throwing insults at you?

    In this game we simulate fights and that makes us something like commander in field. In what world would you tolerate that one of your squad members just steps out and shouts "Hey, look, fire in my direction, I can take it"? Taunting is a useful concept in the game but it is not appropriate to compare the game to reality.

    If there are toons who taunt why not have toons that ignore taunts? And if you look for a toon that should be able to do so you would have check how they are presented in the SW universe.
  • Diel
    109 posts Member
    fascizio wrote: »
    Zooey wrote: »
    fascizio wrote: »
    Chaze is still crazy over powered. Sorry, but it is. I ran into a Chaze team on GW at node six. They weren't event maxed, but both my maxed QGJ Jedi team AND maxed Clone team (combined power of over 98000 points) couldn't even kill one of them. Even with Annakin; they just ignore heal block completely. I'm sorry, but there's no balance at all in two toons that can do that. CG messed this one up, but won't admit it. It's that simple.

    They don't ignore heal block. Either you were attacking TenUp toons or you have potency/rng issues, but heal block is most definitely a solid way of dealing with them.
    Diel wrote: »
    ...
    For example:
    - Boba can ignore taunts. There are so many taunters around that this would be a nice way to attack Chirrut regardless of Baze taunt. And we had another strategic option to handle taunts in general.

    This brings up an interesting point. There are quite a few characters that could thematically make sense to ignore taunt. Why would the droids care about a taunt for example, or it can be rolled into Mace's shatterpoint unique to also ignore taunt.

    I don't know how far that would go though as far as Chaze is concerned. The taunt ignoring character would have to essentially have some amount of pressure they could apply in their own right for that to be effective. Mace certainly doesn't fit that bill.

    "Thematically avoiding taunt" is pretty much the worst argument ever lol. In what world do soldiers immediately stop what they're doing to attack a guy who's throwing insults at you?

    It's not like that, the "thematic reason" for taunt in games has always been making something think you're the biggest threat. It's not like you taunt in WoW, for example, and you character starts lobbing Monty Python insults from a curtain wall or something....

    The point I was making was shatterpoint specifically finds a fault in opponents defenses, so Mace wouldn't be concerned about "a threatening presence" if he already identified the best way to end a fight is elsewhere.

    Currently Shatterpoint is alomost useless against taunts because in most cases expose is not inflicted on the taunting toon. You have a point there.
  • I think the chaze problem shows the much deeper problem, that faction synergy is just too weak in most cases. If a synergy of 2 people with 3 other random in a combination of 5 is more powerful then the top 5 of a full faction squad, then it points to the fact there just isn't enough synergy within factions.

    Not that I am complaining about this though, I think the hybrid builds are much more enjoyable to play. But it clearly shows a need for better faction synergy as an entirely in the game. Kenobi would be playing with 4 other jedi, rex would be playing with 4 other clones, ECT. Dn leads mostly use hybrids, maul or vader maybe exceptions, but still plenty of those kind of lineups still have chaze incorporated in them. Now clearly rebels should utilize chaze duo, and chaze should be their thing. Now if they want to go this route, a chaze needs to be made for the other factions as well, that way it makes it balanced. That is the only true way to balance a skill set like these two have as rebels, and its to give similar type skill sets to other factions.

    I think balanced buffs is the way to fix the chaze issue, not nerf.
  • fascizio
    572 posts Member
    Diel wrote: »
    fascizio wrote: »
    Zooey wrote: »
    fascizio wrote: »
    Chaze is still crazy over powered. Sorry, but it is. I ran into a Chaze team on GW at node six. They weren't event maxed, but both my maxed QGJ Jedi team AND maxed Clone team (combined power of over 98000 points) couldn't even kill one of them. Even with Annakin; they just ignore heal block completely. I'm sorry, but there's no balance at all in two toons that can do that. CG messed this one up, but won't admit it. It's that simple.

    They don't ignore heal block. Either you were attacking TenUp toons or you have potency/rng issues, but heal block is most definitely a solid way of dealing with them.
    Diel wrote: »
    ...
    For example:
    - Boba can ignore taunts. There are so many taunters around that this would be a nice way to attack Chirrut regardless of Baze taunt. And we had another strategic option to handle taunts in general.

    This brings up an interesting point. There are quite a few characters that could thematically make sense to ignore taunt. Why would the droids care about a taunt for example, or it can be rolled into Mace's shatterpoint unique to also ignore taunt.

    I don't know how far that would go though as far as Chaze is concerned. The taunt ignoring character would have to essentially have some amount of pressure they could apply in their own right for that to be effective. Mace certainly doesn't fit that bill.

    "Thematically avoiding taunt" is pretty much the worst argument ever lol. In what world do soldiers immediately stop what they're doing to attack a guy who's throwing insults at you?

    It's not like that, the "thematic reason" for taunt in games has always been making something think you're the biggest threat. It's not like you taunt in WoW, for example, and you character starts lobbing Monty Python insults from a curtain wall or something....

    The point I was making was shatterpoint specifically finds a fault in opponents defenses, so Mace wouldn't be concerned about "a threatening presence" if he already identified the best way to end a fight is elsewhere.

    Currently Shatterpoint is alomost useless against taunts because in most cases expose is not inflicted on the taunting toon. You have a point there.

    Very true, It's a buff that I think makes sense and needs to happen for Mace. Like I said before though, it's only marginally applicable for the topic at hand, since for a character ignoring taunt to be useful against Chaze the character has to be able to provide pressure in his or her own right, like Boba does with Execute. Even with an expose up Mace just doesn't do that. He's... not really in a good place, lol.
  • They don't ignore heal block. Either you were attacking TenUp toons or you have potency/rng issues, but heal block is most definitely a solid way of dealing with them.

    What I saw was Baze with the heal block icon, but also with about four or five HOT icons...and they were working. I literally could not do any damage that they didn't immediately get back even while blocked, with the block icon showing.
  • fascizio
    572 posts Member
    They don't ignore heal block. Either you were attacking TenUp toons or you have potency/rng issues, but heal block is most definitely a solid way of dealing with them.

    What I saw was Baze with the heal block icon, but also with about four or five HOT icons...and they were working. I literally could not do any damage that they didn't immediately get back even while blocked, with the block icon showing.

    Given we're talking about JKA, are you certain your heal block landed and not buff immunity? If so any buffs already on him would continue to function normally.

    Other than that I don't know what else to say. Running R1 currently, so I consistently see heal blocks both on my chaze and from my cass putting them on enemy Chaze's and I haven't noticed any issues. I'll check some more when I run GW today.
  • Diel
    109 posts Member
    fascizio wrote: »
    Diel wrote: »
    fascizio wrote: »
    Zooey wrote: »
    fascizio wrote: »
    Chaze is still crazy over powered. Sorry, but it is. I ran into a Chaze team on GW at node six. They weren't event maxed, but both my maxed QGJ Jedi team AND maxed Clone team (combined power of over 98000 points) couldn't even kill one of them. Even with Annakin; they just ignore heal block completely. I'm sorry, but there's no balance at all in two toons that can do that. CG messed this one up, but won't admit it. It's that simple.

    They don't ignore heal block. Either you were attacking TenUp toons or you have potency/rng issues, but heal block is most definitely a solid way of dealing with them.
    Diel wrote: »
    ...
    For example:
    - Boba can ignore taunts. There are so many taunters around that this would be a nice way to attack Chirrut regardless of Baze taunt. And we had another strategic option to handle taunts in general.

    This brings up an interesting point. There are quite a few characters that could thematically make sense to ignore taunt. Why would the droids care about a taunt for example, or it can be rolled into Mace's shatterpoint unique to also ignore taunt.

    I don't know how far that would go though as far as Chaze is concerned. The taunt ignoring character would have to essentially have some amount of pressure they could apply in their own right for that to be effective. Mace certainly doesn't fit that bill.

    "Thematically avoiding taunt" is pretty much the worst argument ever lol. In what world do soldiers immediately stop what they're doing to attack a guy who's throwing insults at you?

    It's not like that, the "thematic reason" for taunt in games has always been making something think you're the biggest threat. It's not like you taunt in WoW, for example, and you character starts lobbing Monty Python insults from a curtain wall or something....

    The point I was making was shatterpoint specifically finds a fault in opponents defenses, so Mace wouldn't be concerned about "a threatening presence" if he already identified the best way to end a fight is elsewhere.

    Currently Shatterpoint is alomost useless against taunts because in most cases expose is not inflicted on the taunting toon. You have a point there.

    Very true, It's a buff that I think makes sense and needs to happen for Mace. Like I said before though, it's only marginally applicable for the topic at hand, since for a character ignoring taunt to be useful against Chaze the character has to be able to provide pressure in his or her own right, like Boba does with Execute. Even with an expose up Mace just doesn't do that. He's... not really in a good place, lol.

    Besides damage for Chaze it would be useful to have some toons that ignore taunts and inflict stun or ability block. A Nightsister rework could include this, Ventress needs a substantial upgrade and with her this step would be plausible. There are others. Dooku for example but he is already over the top limit with his 3 trillion counters.
This discussion has been closed.