Chaze Breaks Tactical Part of Game - Don't Nerf, but Let's Learn some Lessons

Replies

  • Gamorrean
    2745 posts Member
    SkyeLeonne wrote: »
    Wonder if it has something to do with the latest Hollywood trend of appealing to the Chinese audience to make more money.
    If my post get deleted, then you know I'm right hehe

    I have this sort of feeling you are right :D

    This cheesecake need to stop. Just not gonna be empire to do it.. :'(
    R1-FT-Chirrut-%C3%8Emwe-and-Baze-Malbus-dispatch-some-Stormtroopers.gif


  • Gamorrean
    2745 posts Member
    @Bobby777
    @danflorian1984

    One of you do something with your profile pic! You guys are confusing me all the time! :D
  • Vertigo
    4496 posts Member
    Gamorrean wrote: »
    @Bobby777
    @danflorian1984

    One of you do something with your profile pic! You guys are confusing me all the time! :D

    Didn't even realize that was two different people...
  • Sheytan
    91 posts Member
    Just adding one more post in agreement that Chaze is ridiculous. Characters used to be balanced. If they had a really strong kit with great utility, they also had a weakness. Please bring back a sense of balance. These characters have the utility of 5 synergized characters all crammed into 2 characters. It's not just a bit of power creep. It's not rock paper scissors. It's just out of control.
  • JohnnySteelAlpha
    2794 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    @JohnnySteelAlpha You mention several times throughout this thread that you don't want Chaze nerfed. You also mention that they ruin the tactical portion of the game. How is CG supposed to restore the tactical part of the game without nerfing them? The only way Chaze leaves the meta is if they're nerfed or stronger characters are released, and if stronger characters are released it only further ruins the tactical aspect of the game. As far as I can tell, the only way to restore the strategic team building that Chaze killed is to nerf them. If you have an idea I'd like to hear it, but I just don't think it's possible.

    Limitless possibilities - can just target stuff that directly is the core of what makes them strong.

    - Unique added to Vader or part of a zeta on EP that all Empire and Sith allies ignore rebel taunts
    - Unique / zeta that gives Empire / Sith allies +3-5 speed whenever a Rebel gains a buff (so a rebel team with 5 hots per rebel is 25x3 = 75 or 25x5 = 125 speed
    - Unique / zeta that gives any dark side character or Sith / Empire a 60% chance to call an ally to assist IF the target is a rebel and the assisting attack dispels all buffs, applies buff immunity, daze, and heal block for 2 rounds
    - Unique / zeta / skill that when a given character attacks a rebel, all Empire / Sith cooldowns are reset to 0
    - An AOE or attack that does 5% max health damage, ignoring protection, for each buff on a rebel

    There's tons of stuff you could do, imagination really is the limit. As long as it's targeted at that faction you won't break the game at all.

    But aside from that, to prevent future problems like DN, they could write code on later releases that results in all non-rebels having greatly reduced utility if fighting along side rebels. For example, what if it said DN's cooldown is double if he's allied with a team that has rebels? So a 16 turn CD on DN if used with Chaze. This would prevent the issues with releases that were clearly intended to counter Chaze not ending up benefiting Chaze.

    Not my job to make one specific solution, but if it were I would have no trouble doing so.
  • jjkriv
    429 posts Member
    Sheytan wrote: »
    Just adding one more post in agreement that Chaze is ridiculous. Characters used to be balanced. If they had a really strong kit with great utility, they also had a weakness. Please bring back a sense of balance. These characters have the utility of 5 synergized characters all crammed into 2 characters. It's not just a bit of power creep. It's not rock paper scissors. It's just out of control.

    Chaze is multiplying like gremlins in my arena and starting to show up 4-5 times in my GW,it wont be long before every1 has them 7*,i really hope thrawn or tarkin can bring balance to these 2 jokers.
  • Nikoms565
    14242 posts Member
    @JohnnySteelAlpha You mention several times throughout this thread that you don't want Chaze nerfed. You also mention that they ruin the tactical portion of the game. How is CG supposed to restore the tactical part of the game without nerfing them? The only way Chaze leaves the meta is if they're nerfed or stronger characters are released, and if stronger characters are released it only further ruins the tactical aspect of the game. As far as I can tell, the only way to restore the strategic team building that Chaze killed is to nerf them. If you have an idea I'd like to hear it, but I just don't think it's possible.

    Limitless possibilities - can just target stuff that directly is the core of what makes them strong.

    - Unique added to Vader or part of a zeta on EP that all Empire and Sith allies ignore rebel taunts
    - Unique / zeta that gives Empire / Sith allies +3-5 speed whenever a Rebel gains a buff (so a rebel team with 5 hots per rebel is 25x3 = 75 or 25x5 = 125 speed
    - Unique / zeta that gives any dark side character or Sith / Empire a 60% chance to call an ally to assist IF the target is a rebel and the assisting attack dispels all buffs, applies buff immunity, daze, and heal block for 2 rounds
    - Unique / zeta / skill that when a given character attacks a rebel, all Empire / Sith cooldowns are reset to 0
    - An AOE or attack that does 5% max health damage, ignoring protection, for each buff on a rebel

    There's tons of stuff you could do, imagination really is the limit. As long as it's targeted at that faction you won't break the game at all.

    But aside from that, to prevent future problems like DN, they could write code on later releases that results in all non-rebels having greatly reduced utility if fighting along side rebels. For example, what if it said DN's cooldown is double if he's allied with a team that has rebels? So a 16 turn CD on DN if used with Chaze. This would prevent the issues with releases that were clearly intended to counter Chaze not ending up benefiting Chaze.

    Not my job to make one specific solution, but if it were I would have no trouble doing so.

    All kinds of awesome here JSA. Good ideas all - and the overall concept.
    In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • I don't know why people hate that duo so much, first it was the hate for wiggs now it's shifted to chaze? It's not like they're invincible as I have no problems taking a chaze squad down, how bout they nerf Nihilus? Having an ability that increases your cooldowns and a one shot kill isn't OP? No one really complains about that? Or a zKylo who since the rework is a beast, and both those toons can fit in a lot of squads, c'mon guys I believe every squad has a counter y'all just gotta find it, NO team is unbeatable
  • xReDeMpx
    1690 posts Member
    I don't know why people hate that duo so much, first it was the hate for wiggs now it's shifted to chaze? It's not like they're invincible as I have no problems taking a chaze squad down, how bout they nerf Nihilus? Having an ability that increases your cooldowns and a one shot kill isn't OP? No one really complains about that? Or a zKylo who since the rework is a beast, and both those toons can fit in a lot of squads, c'mon guys I believe every squad has a counter y'all just gotta find it, NO team is unbeatable

    Ohhh lawd

    Do you bother reading?
  • Vertigo wrote: »
    Gamorrean wrote: »
    @Bobby777
    @danflorian1984

    One of you do something with your profile pic! You guys are confusing me all the time! :D

    Didn't even realize that was two different people...

    Well I had it first, I actually use a dark team and I am an empire farm. But the other poster is Bobby777. So I guess that means I have to change it :neutral:
  • Bobby777
    614 posts Member
    Vertigo wrote: »
    Gamorrean wrote: »
    @Bobby777
    @danflorian1984

    One of you do something with your profile pic! You guys are confusing me all the time! :D

    Didn't even realize that was two different people...

    Well I had it first, I actually use a dark team and I am an empire farm. But the other poster is Bobby777. So I guess that means I have to change it :neutral:

    Yep sure looks like it :flushed:
  • The best solution was suggested a few pages back by Dave but I doubt it will gain any traction. (Re-Tool their kits so their utilities are maximized within their own faction.)

    Sure, the forums would be ablaze but I think this game has endured far worse (Mod nerf; a blind eye turned to Guild-hopping forever; hackers ruining the tournaments.) Only way these toons should/should have remained over-tuned in such a way was if they were placed behind a long-term paywall a la Rex. Anyone could see this coming from the moment they became farmable.
  • Fix Palp critting under a DN lead bug, run a Sith team with ST in, hit auto...
  • hilikus
    109 posts Member
    I don't think chaze is breaking the tactical part of the game. They can be beat with many other teams pretty easily.
    And their abilities are exaggerated here greatly. For example: it is not tenacity up and cleanse. It is one or the other.

    I feel the reason why basically any new faction (Phoenix, Troopers) is useless, is AoE Daze and **** dodge combined with turn meter gain and crit immunity. That imho is a truly game breaking combination, because you need very specific toons to counter that.
  • And yet in shards where Zaul is gone you still can't see the new factions. Why do you think is that? Also do you consider Phoenix and IT to be 2 of those teams that easily beat Chaze?

    BTW do you personally use Chaze? And if so why ? You could just use any of those other teams since they beat with ease your own. You do not like to win?
  • hilikus
    109 posts Member
    And yet in shards where Zaul is gone you still can't see the new factions. Why do you think is that? Also do you consider Phoenix and IT to be 2 of those teams that easily beat Chaze?
    I can only speak for my shard and zaul is everything but gone. 4 out of the top 5 teams are Zaul.
    I don't know if Troopers or Phoenix could take down a R1 Team, I am just guessing. But why shouldn't they? Because of Chaze? What I do know is that the whole strategy of such a team is instantly broken if facing Zaul. The whole Sith Team goes first, Mass Daze and that just kills most part of the synergy. And don't get me started with the Strategy breaking randomness of dodging and gaining Turn Meter AND Crit Immunity.
    There is a reason the Arena consisted of Zaul or his counter (Rex), because Zaul broke every other team.
    BTW do you personally use Chaze? And if so why ? You could just use any of those other teams since they beat with ease your own. You do not like to win?
    I do use Chaze, yes. And even in offense I take down Zaul teams at best half the time. I use them because I run rebels and they are a very strong combo who bring a lot to the team. Never doubted that. But when I think about game and strategy breaking toons, they are definetely not the first that come to my mind.

  • I understand the frustration,
    Diel wrote: »
    PLEASE STOP THE CHAZE HATE. We've had enough of it.

    Hate? Please calm down.

    The point is, everyone has been going around saying Chaze 'does everything better than everyone, makes everyone obsolete, is ridiculously op" etc. for 6 months. And we see a "Chaze is OP" thread every day or so...

    I'll suggest you a small exercise, remove Chaze from your arena team for a few days, ideally replace them with Chaze counters, and fight those days in your shard against Chaze teams. After that try and imagine how is like to do that for months in a row not days. Then we'll see if you will still have the inclination to came in every Chaze thread and complain about people complaining about Chaze. If you are afraid that you'll loose rank and crystals during this exercise, don't worry, is all part of the experience :wink:

    Well, My Chaze has been in my R1 arena team for 5 months, so it's not a good idea to swap out a team I'm so used to using.

    But that's out of the point. Chaze has a giant gaping hole in it: Once you mess up its attack rhythm, you more or less have killed it. Mess with Chirrut's health equalise ability with DN's CD increase and Chaze will become far more vulnerable. zMaul (L) + DN teams can kill Chaze for breakfast, as maul AoE dazes and DN prevents health equalise. Under zMaul, opponent Chaze will be unable to grant Tenacity Up, making them weak to Shock, Health Down, Healing Immunity, Buff Immunity.

    Unless Rex + Chaze is in the question, Chaze is beatable as Chirrut doesn't grant HoTs AND Tenacity Up. In addition, note that Chirrut only grants hoTs to rebels.

    TL;DR: Chaze is beatable and balanced.
  • The point of this thread was never if they can be beaten, and certainly not if the R1 can be beaten.

    The point is that they break the tactical part of the game simply because they perform the roles of multiple toons, usually better than them. For example you never have to choose between a cleanser, a healer or an attacker to put in your last spot in your team, like every other faction has to, if they even have toons that can perform all these roles separately. Empire doesn't have a cleanser, BH don't have a healer etc.
    You can replace 5 toons, an entire team,of abilities, with the duo and still have another 3 spots in which you can put whatever you want: the 3 strongest stand alone toons, counters for the most important counters that Chaze have, rebels for their insane synergies that are absent in other factions etc.
    That is the reason why they break the tactical part of the game.

    And btw nobody can take you seriously when you say that there are "many" teams that beat them "at ease". They can be beaten, but not by many and not with ease.
  • Also, ridiculous armor penetration by Chirrut. He does more damage than a Rey under Finn lead without debuffs.
  • hilikus
    109 posts Member
    The point is that they break the tactical part of the game simply because they perform the roles of multiple toons, usually better than them.
    For example you never have to choose between a cleanser, a healer or an attacker to put in your last spot in your team, like every other faction has to, if they even have toons that can perform all these roles separately.
    I disagree with that argument. If there is one spot left, you need to put in Baze OR Chirrut. Also ST ist the only toon who can heal, taunt constantly and spread buff immunity. No other toon does that. So how do you decide which combination is breaking a portion of the game and which doesn't?
    That is why I would totally disagree with that definition of the tactical part or at least with its relevance. I dont care if some toons are good or better as long as they can be beaten with enough teams and therefore you have a tactical decision to make which team to develop and what faction to focus on and you can be competitive with that. That is at least my, imho more practical, approach to assess what is game breaking and what is not.
    That is why imho in the last few months there was one decision by CG, that made all the following released toons a joke until R2 arrived, and that is that dreadful Sith faction pass. Talking about game breaking, Zaul ended Rebels, Empire, Troopers and Phoenix the instant they were released and forced every player to go Zaul or his counter and brought randomness back to the game. THAT is breaking most tactics imho.
  • Yeah,
    hilikus wrote: »
    The point is that they break the tactical part of the game simply because they perform the roles of multiple toons, usually better than them.
    For example you never have to choose between a cleanser, a healer or an attacker to put in your last spot in your team, like every other faction has to, if they even have toons that can perform all these roles separately.
    I disagree with that argument. If there is one spot left, you need to put in Baze OR Chirrut. Also ST ist the only toon who can heal, taunt constantly and spread buff immunity. No other toon does that. So how do you decide which combination is breaking a portion of the game and which doesn't?
    That is why I would totally disagree with that definition of the tactical part or at least with its relevance. I dont care if some toons are good or better as long as they can be beaten with enough teams and therefore you have a tactical decision to make which team to develop and what faction to focus on and you can be competitive with that. That is at least my, imho more practical, approach to assess what is game breaking and what is not.
    That is why imho in the last few months there was one decision by CG, that made all the following released toons a joke until R2 arrived, and that is that dreadful Sith faction pass. Talking about game breaking, Zaul ended Rebels, Empire, Troopers and Phoenix the instant they were released and forced every player to go Zaul or his counter and brought randomness back to the game. THAT is breaking most tactics imho.

    I specifically said if you need to chose between a cleanser, healer or attacker. Why would you put Baze instead of Chirrut there? Also since you don't need a pretaunter, an autotaunter, a dispeller or another debuffer in this hypothetical team is clear you already have Baze there being all those toons at once.

    ST healing, taunting and applying BI is nothing compared with the insane utility brought by this 2 toons that replace an entire team, notwithstanding their synergy and anti-empire abilities that bring them to yet another level of OP-ness. Them having a few counters means nothing since they together are counters for every single toon in this game. And if you search all the nerf ST threads or his usage on SWGOH you will see how game breaking is ST.

    The only reason Zaul existed in the first place imo is because there wasn't other way to dislodge your precious rebel from the top of shards. The faction so balanced that is meta continuously from August 2016, yes even during the fake meta, the Zaul gimmick.
  • hilikus
    109 posts Member
    I didn't mean to imply that ST is game
    Breaking. I wanted to make the point that the choice/combination of skills that make chaze game Breaking seems arbitrary to me.

    My whole point was and is that I don't understand how someone can claim that this duo breaks strategy and tactic when there is a team out there that has exactly one reliable counter and
    Nothing else.

    Before Zaul came out, empire, especially with Zader, was totally viable. It doesn't matter with what intentions they released what. The result of Zaul is horrible imho. And I am willing to bet that Phoenix as well as the imperial troopers would be totally viable if it wasnt for you know who.

  • It depends what you mean by viable. If by that you mean hovering near top 20, so being a challenge but not a threat to the rebels, sure .Just like my empire team was viable before I was forced to switch to Zaul and suddenly I started finishing first at my pay-out.
  • xReDeMpx
    1690 posts Member
    hilikus wrote: »
    I didn't mean to imply that ST is game
    Breaking. I wanted to make the point that the choice/combination of skills that make chaze game Breaking seems arbitrary to me.

    My whole point was and is that I don't understand how someone can claim that this duo breaks strategy and tactic when there is a team out there that has exactly one reliable counter and
    Nothing else.

    Before Zaul came out, empire, especially with Zader, was totally viable. It doesn't matter with what intentions they released what. The result of Zaul is horrible imho. And I am willing to bet that Phoenix as well as the imperial troopers would be totally viable if it wasnt for you know who.

    Dude chaze has been in top meta ever since release, the only other toon that has done that is GK where it spans over a decent amount of meta.

    Having a counter does not mean balanced.

    The 96 Chicago bulls lost 10 games in the season, but just because they were beat don't mean they were on the same level as other teams because they obviously were not
  • Look, I understand where most of you are coming from, but I disagree.

    This game develops in stages, and maybe in this current stage chaze has more utility than any other duo, but there will be additional stages of toon deployment and development to follow. You see, it doesn't mean the game will always be this way. Remember 1st and foremost, CG is a business and has investors looking for a return on their investment, and power creep ensures revenue streams. What I take from this thread, is perhaps a word to CG, and even their investors, to not accelerate the power creep so fast. That seems reasonable.

    Admittedly, chaze was a massive jump in the meta. But chaze is beatable, as I've shown in a thread in the feedback section under characters. Being somewhat of a counter meta guy, I like the challenge chaze poses to me. It's fun to come up with new ways to beat chaze (and rex) without using either.

    Chaze has not broken the game, is not op, is not unbeatable, is not unbalanced . Just because the duo has great utility doesn't then mean they beat all strategy and is unbalanced. Many have already shown alternative comps that can beat chaze without using Chaze. Oh I know, I know, just because you can beat a team, doesn't mean the team is balanced. We'll, just because a team is unbalanced doesn't mean the game is broken or has insurmountable squads on the way to #1 in arena.
    what an ugly thing to say... does this mean we're not friends anymore?
  • xReDeMpx
    1690 posts Member
    Look, I understand where most of you are coming from, but I disagree.

    This game develops in stages, and maybe in this current stage chaze has more utility than any other duo, but there will be additional stages of toon deployment and development to follow. You see, it doesn't mean the game will always be this way. Remember 1st and foremost, CG is a business and has investors looking for a return on their investment, and power creep ensures revenue streams. What I take from this thread, is perhaps a word to CG, and even their investors, to not accelerate the power creep so fast. That seems reasonable.

    Admittedly, chaze was a massive jump in the meta. But chaze is beatable, as I've shown in a thread in the feedback section under characters. Being somewhat of a counter meta guy, I like the challenge chaze poses to me. It's fun to come up with new ways to beat chaze (and rex) without using either.

    Chaze has not broken the game, is not op, is not unbeatable, is not unbalanced . Just because the duo has great utility doesn't then mean they beat all strategy and is unbalanced. Many have already shown alternative comps that can beat chaze without using Chaze. Oh I know, I know, just because you can beat a team, doesn't mean the team is balanced. We'll, just because a team is unbalanced doesn't mean the game is broken or has insurmountable squads on the way to #1 in arena.


    Only toons in the game to be in every meta since release are chaze and GK.

    They have been dominant since release and chaze themself are a whole team of toons and it obviously shows since they are one of the only toons that have t been forced out of meta.

    We don't need more power creep toons to be introduced to have the utility purposes like chaze or better than chaze because that puts the community in another chaze situation.

    You haven't offered anything that OP hasent refuted or someone has already said for the 100th time about defending chaze
  • xReDeMpx wrote: »
    Look, I understand where most of you are coming from, but I disagree.

    This game develops in stages, and maybe in this current stage chaze has more utility than any other duo, but there will be additional stages of toon deployment and development to follow. You see, it doesn't mean the game will always be this way. Remember 1st and foremost, CG is a business and has investors looking for a return on their investment, and power creep ensures revenue streams. What I take from this thread, is perhaps a word to CG, and even their investors, to not accelerate the power creep so fast. That seems reasonable.

    Admittedly, chaze was a massive jump in the meta. But chaze is beatable, as I've shown in a thread in the feedback section under characters. Being somewhat of a counter meta guy, I like the challenge chaze poses to me. It's fun to come up with new ways to beat chaze (and rex) without using either.

    Chaze has not broken the game, is not op, is not unbeatable, is not unbalanced . Just because the duo has great utility doesn't then mean they beat all strategy and is unbalanced. Many have already shown alternative comps that can beat chaze without using Chaze. Oh I know, I know, just because you can beat a team, doesn't mean the team is balanced. We'll, just because a team is unbalanced doesn't mean the game is broken or has insurmountable squads on the way to #1 in arena.


    Only toons in the game to be in every meta since release are chaze and GK.

    So? I fail to see the relevance of this point.


    They have been dominant since release and chaze themself are a whole team of toons and it obviously shows since they are one of the only toons that have t been forced out of meta.

    So? Some toon will always be dominant. So what if it's fot same toon for over a year. Actually with the amount of time, energy, resources, crystals it takes to develop a toon, it seems to me the gaming community would prefer a more static meta compared to one that changed every month. I figure this let's f2p have a chance?
    We don't need more power creep toons to be introduced to have the utility purposes like chaze or better than chaze because that puts the community in another chaze situation.
    Seems like a reasonable request, but I disagree with "chaze situation". I could do without the 'dramatic' argument.
    You haven't offered anything that OP hasent refuted or someone has already said for the 100th time about defending chaze

    What? Why even mention this? What's your motive? To silence me?
    what an ugly thing to say... does this mean we're not friends anymore?
  • Just nerf them, there's a lot of good suggestions in here to make there abilities synergize with only rebels that's probably the best way to go.
  • I am really at loss about what you understand by the word balanced. You admit they were the dominant toons since the start, you admit they can be used in multiple teams, and that they offer greater utility than any other pair in the game. So how are they balanced? Balanced compared with whom? Is the fact that they have some counters, even though those counters aren't even dedicated counters, enough to say they are balanced? Even if they are master of all trades toons that themselves are counters to every other single toon or team, besides Zaul, in the game?
  • MayAddy622
    298 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    Dark_Light wrote: »
    Just nerf them, there's a lot of good suggestions in here to make there abilities synergize with only rebels that's probably the best way to go.

    I am willing to bet their nerf will come with other toons being even better then them, but I think the way you are suggesting would legitimately be the best way to go about it. Make the bonuses rebel based.

    Baze for instance, 20 percent chance to counter attack per each rebel on team, not retribution. Baze only auto taunts when chirrut falls below full health, and WHEN A REBEL ALLY dies. 1 turn taunt. Still 100 percent counter ability running rebels, but not so much for everyone else running chaze +3. Baze is really the problem with the synergy. And of course that is the character that hides behind the one hard node or crystal purchases. Smart cookie that ea is.
This discussion has been closed.