I got 99 problems (but a debuff ain't one)

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Debuffs are almost irrelevant in the game now. Characters, heck entire factions, that are built around applying debuffs are severely gimped. Cleanses everywhere. On hits, on getting hit, just taking a turn cleanses. Not to mention the nifty group cleanses that come with fun bonuses like health gain, tm gain, and reversing your debuffs into buffs. That's considering that you can get past the built in 15% resist chance and Debuff Immunity (I refuse to call it tenacity up because it's not).

A huge mechanic in the game is being minimized and I don't think it can climb out of this hole. In fact, the hole just keeps getting deeper.

Replies

  • Yeah I agree. I think a way to fix this is to create cleanse immunity or a debuff that doesn't allow effects to be resisted or cleansed. And I agree, tenacity up and debuff immunity should be two different things. If tenacity up makes you resist effects 100% of the time, why doesn't tenacity down make you have a 100% chance to inflict the debuff?
  • OnJouney
    268 posts Member
    Georgemi6 wrote: »
    Yeah I agree. I think a way to fix this is to create cleanse immunity or a debuff that doesn't allow effects to be resisted or cleansed. And I agree, tenacity up and debuff immunity should be two different things. If tenacity up makes you resist effects 100% of the time, why doesn't tenacity down make you have a 100% chance to inflict the debuff?

    Ability block. Probably the strongest debuff, when you can't stun their whole team.
  • OnJouney wrote: »
    Georgemi6 wrote: »
    Yeah I agree. I think a way to fix this is to create cleanse immunity or a debuff that doesn't allow effects to be resisted or cleansed. And I agree, tenacity up and debuff immunity should be two different things. If tenacity up makes you resist effects 100% of the time, why doesn't tenacity down make you have a 100% chance to inflict the debuff?

    Ability block. Probably the strongest debuff, when you can't stun their whole team.

    Barriss and Savage. There you go.
  • Acrofales
    1023 posts Member
    edited May 19
    Georgemi6 wrote: »
    OnJouney wrote: »
    Georgemi6 wrote: »
    Yeah I agree. I think a way to fix this is to create cleanse immunity or a debuff that doesn't allow effects to be resisted or cleansed. And I agree, tenacity up and debuff immunity should be two different things. If tenacity up makes you resist effects 100% of the time, why doesn't tenacity down make you have a 100% chance to inflict the debuff?

    Ability block. Probably the strongest debuff, when you can't stun their whole team.
    Barriss and Savage. There you go.

    Or r2z2
  • leef
    7442 posts Member
    debuffs allow me to win battles, even vs the famous "tripple cleanse" team. They're far from irrelevent.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • leef wrote: »
    debuffs allow me to win battles, even vs the famous "tripple cleanse" team. They're far from irrelevent.

    No they're definitely getting there. The direction the game is heading only effects that specifically can't be resisted will land
  • JacenRoe
    1821 posts Member
    Nope. It's just the swinging of the pendulum. When I was facing teams the could put 40 debuffs over my head in a turn or two it forced me to do the only thing I could to survive. Triple cleanse at the expence of most of my damage.

    And even running a triple cleanse I nearly always have multiple debuffs (frequently upwards of a dozen) on my characters before I can cleanse again.

    So theory craft a massive damage team that isn't debuff dependent to take out the triple cleanse. Or use zQGJ Jedi. They already hit me to avoid fighting Zaul.
  • leef
    7442 posts Member
    leef wrote: »
    debuffs allow me to win battles, even vs the famous "tripple cleanse" team. They're far from irrelevent.

    No they're definitely getting there. The direction the game is heading only effects that specifically can't be resisted will land

    well, okay.
    I think you're completely wrong. Time will tell, in the meantime i'll keep enjoying my debuffers.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • JacenRoe
    1821 posts Member
    leef wrote: »
    debuffs allow me to win battles, even vs the famous "tripple cleanse" team. They're far from irrelevent.

    No they're definitely getting there. The direction the game is heading only effects that specifically can't be resisted will land

    B2.
  • Zooey
    1607 posts Member
    I think unresistable debuffs will be horrible for the game in the long run. I prefer punishing cleanse through a unique or other ability that hurts toons for cleansing too much.
  • I agree on the conclusions and to make matters worst, debuff relies on rolling the dice with a 15% chance to resist whatever the toon applying debuff's potency. So it's definitely less "rewarding" than a buff/cleanse that goes on every time.
  • fascizio
    531 posts Member
    I think it's funny that Tenacity is widely regarded as a garbage stat as far as mods are concerned and people are actually complaining about the default resist chance...

    Regardless, I agree with @leef , Running R1, consistenly rely on debuffs and exposes for damage, consistently beating double and triple cleanse teams (at least on offense). Debuffs are far from irrelevant.
  • Bones
    446 posts Member
    edited May 19
    There already is a something that cant be cleansed (Armor Shred from Sabine). They need to just make more of them.
  • djvita
    1684 posts Member
    tenacity up, is like debuff immunity

  • Vertigo
    3545 posts Member
    Bones wrote: »
    There already is a something that cant be cleansed (Armor Shred from Sabine). They need to just make more of them.

    Agreed, but I also wish they didn't have to make things that can't be cleansed. I feel like they shouldn't have had to get that far into a creep with debuff vs buff vs debuff vs buff if you understand me? I think it's the right direction to head now, but I would've preferred that they had balanced them out a little before having to make debuffs like this.
  • CleverWes
    436 posts Member
    Zader lead keeps those dot debuffs despite a cleanse.

    Oh, new Ahsoka is immune to dots? Great.
  • Bones
    446 posts Member
    Vertigo wrote: »
    Bones wrote: »
    There already is a something that cant be cleansed (Armor Shred from Sabine). They need to just make more of them.

    Agreed, but I also wish they didn't have to make things that can't be cleansed. I feel like they shouldn't have had to get that far into a creep with debuff vs buff vs debuff vs buff if you understand me? I think it's the right direction to head now, but I would've preferred that they had balanced them out a little before having to make debuffs like this.

    problem is they made tenacity up too strong, which in turn is what makes arena so boring. you have all these great effects but can hardly every use them consistently. should have made tenacity up similar to offense up where its an addition to what you have but not overpowered (for example: tenacity up would add 50% tenacity to the current character), but not able to resist everything.
  • Vertigo
    3545 posts Member
    Bones wrote: »
    Vertigo wrote: »
    Bones wrote: »
    There already is a something that cant be cleansed (Armor Shred from Sabine). They need to just make more of them.

    Agreed, but I also wish they didn't have to make things that can't be cleansed. I feel like they shouldn't have had to get that far into a creep with debuff vs buff vs debuff vs buff if you understand me? I think it's the right direction to head now, but I would've preferred that they had balanced them out a little before having to make debuffs like this.

    problem is they made tenacity up too strong, which in turn is what makes arena so boring. you have all these great effects but can hardly every use them consistently. should have made tenacity up similar to offense up where its an addition to what you have but not overpowered (for example: tenacity up would add 50% tenacity to the current character), but not able to resist everything.

    Exactly! Tenacity was so useless before that they had to make it resist something. But in order to do that they went much too far and made it resist everything. But now we need to work with it, and in order to balance it out we need make more irresistible debuffs and more things that can't be cleansed. Either that or do an entire overhaul of the Tenacity/Potency system, which is probably better, but also probably not very cost effective.
  • Mzee
    1143 posts Member
    Vertigo wrote: »
    Bones wrote: »
    Vertigo wrote: »
    Bones wrote: »
    There already is a something that cant be cleansed (Armor Shred from Sabine). They need to just make more of them.

    Agreed, but I also wish they didn't have to make things that can't be cleansed. I feel like they shouldn't have had to get that far into a creep with debuff vs buff vs debuff vs buff if you understand me? I think it's the right direction to head now, but I would've preferred that they had balanced them out a little before having to make debuffs like this.

    problem is they made tenacity up too strong, which in turn is what makes arena so boring. you have all these great effects but can hardly every use them consistently. should have made tenacity up similar to offense up where its an addition to what you have but not overpowered (for example: tenacity up would add 50% tenacity to the current character), but not able to resist everything.

    Exactly! Tenacity was so useless before that they had to make it resist something. But in order to do that they went much too far and made it resist everything. But now we need to work with it, and in order to balance it out we need make more irresistible debuffs and more things that can't be cleansed. Either that or do an entire overhaul of the Tenacity/Potency system, which is probably better, but also probably not very cost effective.

    Agreed.
  • Minowara
    378 posts Member
    I agree that the cleanses are out of control -- hence my reddit post, if any of you view there as well. This is a serious issue, because it has nullified so many characters. Any characters that rely on debuffs basically barely work right now. Most top arena teams are running 3 or 4 full team cleansers....

    Leef, I love your comments that you have no issues and use debuffers, since your arena team is Rex (L, cleanser), GK (cleanser), R2 (cleanser), Zylo, and DN. Thanks, but no thanks.
  • leef
    7442 posts Member
    Minowara wrote: »
    I agree that the cleanses are out of control -- hence my reddit post, if any of you view there as well. This is a serious issue, because it has nullified so many characters. Any characters that rely on debuffs basically barely work right now. Most top arena teams are running 3 or 4 full team cleansers....

    Leef, I love your comments that you have no issues and use debuffers, since your arena team is Rex (L, cleanser), GK (cleanser), R2 (cleanser), Zylo, and DN. Thanks, but no thanks.

    you've got that backwards, debuffs are so effective that people use not only 1 cleanser, but even up to 4 cleansers.
    I'd also like to note that my R2 doesn't have a zeta on his cleansing unique and that my characters are debuffed ALOT during arena matches.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • scuba
    10917 posts Member
    leef wrote: »
    Minowara wrote: »
    I agree that the cleanses are out of control -- hence my reddit post, if any of you view there as well. This is a serious issue, because it has nullified so many characters. Any characters that rely on debuffs basically barely work right now. Most top arena teams are running 3 or 4 full team cleansers....

    Leef, I love your comments that you have no issues and use debuffers, since your arena team is Rex (L, cleanser), GK (cleanser), R2 (cleanser), Zylo, and DN. Thanks, but no thanks.

    you've got that backwards, debuffs are so effective that people use not only 1 cleanser, but even up to 4 cleansers.
    I'd also like to note that my R2 doesn't have a zeta on his cleansing unique and that my characters are debuffed ALOT during arena matches.

    Nailed it.
  • Minowara
    378 posts Member
    leef wrote: »
    Minowara wrote: »
    I agree that the cleanses are out of control -- hence my reddit post, if any of you view there as well. This is a serious issue, because it has nullified so many characters. Any characters that rely on debuffs basically barely work right now. Most top arena teams are running 3 or 4 full team cleansers....

    Leef, I love your comments that you have no issues and use debuffers, since your arena team is Rex (L, cleanser), GK (cleanser), R2 (cleanser), Zylo, and DN. Thanks, but no thanks.

    you've got that backwards, debuffs are so effective that people use not only 1 cleanser, but even up to 4 cleansers.
    I'd also like to note that my R2 doesn't have a zeta on his cleansing unique and that my characters are debuffed ALOT during arena matches.

    You bring up an interesting point -- that the cleansers are so prevalent because the debuffers are strong. I had to think about that a little while, but in the end I still stand by an initial point:

    My problem with the current situation is that the cleansers are too powerful in other areas too. They are not narrowly useful for cleanse. Even if you took their cleanse away, they would still be heavily used characters. I don't think it would dramatically affect their level of play -- Rex, GK, and Chirrut still rock even without a cleanse. On the other side, with most teams (9 of my top 10 are rex leads, December 2015 shard) unable to apply buffs against these toons, they do not have any usefulness. TFP without debuffs is, well, not really that good. Nor is Zam. Nor is EP. So all the debuffers suck without debuffs, but all the cleansers are great even without cleanse. That is where the imbalance lies.

    There are two good fixes for this: Fix Tenacity Up, making it just add a small % instead of making debuffing impossible, or start to introduce characters who can guarantee application of debuffs regardless of tenacity up, AND who can guarantee that buffs cannot be cleansed (like vader can now on dots).
  • CleverWes
    436 posts Member
    Minowara wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    Minowara wrote: »
    I agree that the cleanses are out of control -- hence my reddit post, if any of you view there as well. This is a serious issue, because it has nullified so many characters. Any characters that rely on debuffs basically barely work right now. Most top arena teams are running 3 or 4 full team cleansers....

    Leef, I love your comments that you have no issues and use debuffers, since your arena team is Rex (L, cleanser), GK (cleanser), R2 (cleanser), Zylo, and DN. Thanks, but no thanks.

    you've got that backwards, debuffs are so effective that people use not only 1 cleanser, but even up to 4 cleansers.
    I'd also like to note that my R2 doesn't have a zeta on his cleansing unique and that my characters are debuffed ALOT during arena matches.

    You bring up an interesting point -- that the cleansers are so prevalent because the debuffers are strong. I had to think about that a little while, but in the end I still stand by an initial point:

    My problem with the current situation is that the cleansers are too powerful in other areas too. They are not narrowly useful for cleanse. Even if you took their cleanse away, they would still be heavily used characters. I don't think it would dramatically affect their level of play -- Rex, GK, and Chirrut still rock even without a cleanse. On the other side, with most teams (9 of my top 10 are rex leads, December 2015 shard) unable to apply buffs against these toons, they do not have any usefulness. TFP without debuffs is, well, not really that good. Nor is Zam. Nor is EP. So all the debuffers suck without debuffs, but all the cleansers are great even without cleanse. That is where the imbalance lies.

    There are two good fixes for this: Fix Tenacity Up, making it just add a small % instead of making debuffing impossible, or start to introduce characters who can guarantee application of debuffs regardless of tenacity up, AND who can guarantee that buffs cannot be cleansed (like vader can now on dots).

    You lost me when you implied Zam wasn't good because of cleansers.
  • Darlex11
    232 posts Member
    edited May 19
    Georgemi6 wrote: »
    Yeah I agree. I think a way to fix this is to create cleanse immunity or a debuff that doesn't allow effects to be resisted or cleansed. And I agree, tenacity up and debuff immunity should be two different things. If tenacity up makes you resist effects 100% of the time, why doesn't tenacity down make you have a 100% chance to inflict the debuff?

    That would be an interesting idea that I wish they had implemented with the Tarkin rework. Make there be a debuff that makes it so no already applied debuffs can be cleansed for the duration it is up. That would help to counter the triple cleanse teams that are overly dominant. Another issue that has been pointed out often is the disparity in how effective tenacity up (debuff immunity is the best way to describe it) vs tenacity down (false advertising because there is still a 15% chance to resist even with TD on the target). Equalize the impact of each of those and you come along way closer to balancing out the debuff/cleanse game some.
  • Jetlife
    1300 posts Member
    Your right. They adjusted to your team and now your going to have to adjust their team. A simple aoe dispell and an ability block or 2 and your gold!
  • Minowara
    378 posts Member
    CleverWes wrote: »
    Minowara wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    Minowara wrote: »
    I agree that the cleanses are out of control -- hence my reddit post, if any of you view there as well. This is a serious issue, because it has nullified so many characters. Any characters that rely on debuffs basically barely work right now. Most top arena teams are running 3 or 4 full team cleansers....

    Leef, I love your comments that you have no issues and use debuffers, since your arena team is Rex (L, cleanser), GK (cleanser), R2 (cleanser), Zylo, and DN. Thanks, but no thanks.

    you've got that backwards, debuffs are so effective that people use not only 1 cleanser, but even up to 4 cleansers.
    I'd also like to note that my R2 doesn't have a zeta on his cleansing unique and that my characters are debuffed ALOT during arena matches.

    You bring up an interesting point -- that the cleansers are so prevalent because the debuffers are strong. I had to think about that a little while, but in the end I still stand by an initial point:

    My problem with the current situation is that the cleansers are too powerful in other areas too. They are not narrowly useful for cleanse. Even if you took their cleanse away, they would still be heavily used characters. I don't think it would dramatically affect their level of play -- Rex, GK, and Chirrut still rock even without a cleanse. On the other side, with most teams (9 of my top 10 are rex leads, December 2015 shard) unable to apply buffs against these toons, they do not have any usefulness. TFP without debuffs is, well, not really that good. Nor is Zam. Nor is EP. So all the debuffers suck without debuffs, but all the cleansers are great even without cleanse. That is where the imbalance lies.

    There are two good fixes for this: Fix Tenacity Up, making it just add a small % instead of making debuffing impossible, or start to introduce characters who can guarantee application of debuffs regardless of tenacity up, AND who can guarantee that buffs cannot be cleansed (like vader can now on dots).

    You lost me when you implied Zam wasn't good because of cleansers.

    I hope you're not serious. I actually run Zam in arena, and cleansers crush her. Yay, lots of bombs! Ohh wait, not anymore. Yay! evasion down! Ohh wait, not anymore....

    Either you're being sarcastic and I'm not getting it, or you don't run Zam in high-level arena.
  • CleverWes
    436 posts Member
    Minowara wrote: »
    CleverWes wrote: »
    Minowara wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    Minowara wrote: »
    I agree that the cleanses are out of control -- hence my reddit post, if any of you view there as well. This is a serious issue, because it has nullified so many characters. Any characters that rely on debuffs basically barely work right now. Most top arena teams are running 3 or 4 full team cleansers....

    Leef, I love your comments that you have no issues and use debuffers, since your arena team is Rex (L, cleanser), GK (cleanser), R2 (cleanser), Zylo, and DN. Thanks, but no thanks.

    you've got that backwards, debuffs are so effective that people use not only 1 cleanser, but even up to 4 cleansers.
    I'd also like to note that my R2 doesn't have a zeta on his cleansing unique and that my characters are debuffed ALOT during arena matches.

    You bring up an interesting point -- that the cleansers are so prevalent because the debuffers are strong. I had to think about that a little while, but in the end I still stand by an initial point:

    My problem with the current situation is that the cleansers are too powerful in other areas too. They are not narrowly useful for cleanse. Even if you took their cleanse away, they would still be heavily used characters. I don't think it would dramatically affect their level of play -- Rex, GK, and Chirrut still rock even without a cleanse. On the other side, with most teams (9 of my top 10 are rex leads, December 2015 shard) unable to apply buffs against these toons, they do not have any usefulness. TFP without debuffs is, well, not really that good. Nor is Zam. Nor is EP. So all the debuffers suck without debuffs, but all the cleansers are great even without cleanse. That is where the imbalance lies.

    There are two good fixes for this: Fix Tenacity Up, making it just add a small % instead of making debuffing impossible, or start to introduce characters who can guarantee application of debuffs regardless of tenacity up, AND who can guarantee that buffs cannot be cleansed (like vader can now on dots).

    You lost me when you implied Zam wasn't good because of cleansers.

    I hope you're not serious. I actually run Zam in arena, and cleansers crush her. Yay, lots of bombs! Ohh wait, not anymore. Yay! evasion down! Ohh wait, not anymore....

    Either you're being sarcastic and I'm not getting it, or you don't run Zam in high-level arena.

    Zam is terrible with or without a cleanser is all I'm saying. Squishy, low damage, and that hat!
  • Minowara
    378 posts Member
    edited May 19
    Jetlife wrote: »
    Your right. They adjusted to your team and now your going to have to adjust their team. A simple aoe dispell and an ability block or 2 and your gold!

    I run a BH team in arena, typically finishing in the top 1/2 on my shard (December 2015). AoE ability block doesn't work. IG-88 and Boba have it. But when a team is running 3 or 4 cleansers, one miss and the whole thing fails. Plus, R2 if zeta'd (which my whole shard seems to have already done) causes the rest of a light side team to auto-cleanse themselves.
  • CleverWes
    436 posts Member
    Minowara wrote: »
    Jetlife wrote: »
    Your right. They adjusted to your team and now your going to have to adjust their team. A simple aoe dispell and an ability block or 2 and your gold!

    I run a BH team in arena, typically finishing in the top 1/2 on my shard (December 2015). AoE dispel doesn't work. IG-88 and Boba have it. But when a team is running 3 or 4 cleansers, one miss and the whole thing fails. Plus, R2 if zeta'd (which my whole shard seems to have already done) causes the rest of a light side team to auto-cleanse themselves.

    Bounty Hunters could use some love as a faction. One Rex can essentially neuter the squad. I hope in a future rework, one of them gets it so thermals can't be cleansed because that would certainly make them more viable.
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