I agree that the cleanses are out of control -- hence my reddit post, if any of you view there as well. This is a serious issue, because it has nullified so many characters. Any characters that rely on debuffs basically barely work right now. Most top arena teams are running 3 or 4 full team cleansers....
Leef, I love your comments that you have no issues and use debuffers, since your arena team is Rex (L, cleanser), GK (cleanser), R2 (cleanser), Zylo, and DN. Thanks, but no thanks.
you've got that backwards, debuffs are so effective that people use not only 1 cleanser, but even up to 4 cleansers.
I'd also like to note that my R2 doesn't have a zeta on his cleansing unique and that my characters are debuffed ALOT during arena matches.
You bring up an interesting point -- that the cleansers are so prevalent because the debuffers are strong. I had to think about that a little while, but in the end I still stand by an initial point:
My problem with the current situation is that the cleansers are too powerful in other areas too. They are not narrowly useful for cleanse. Even if you took their cleanse away, they would still be heavily used characters. I don't think it would dramatically affect their level of play -- Rex, GK, and Chirrut still rock even without a cleanse. On the other side, with most teams (9 of my top 10 are rex leads, December 2015 shard) unable to apply buffs against these toons, they do not have any usefulness. TFP without debuffs is, well, not really that good. Nor is Zam. Nor is EP. So all the debuffers suck without debuffs, but all the cleansers are great even without cleanse. That is where the imbalance lies.
There are two good fixes for this: Fix Tenacity Up, making it just add a small % instead of making debuffing impossible, or start to introduce characters who can guarantee application of debuffs regardless of tenacity up, AND who can guarantee that buffs cannot be cleansed (like vader can now on dots).
I mainly use Rex/GK/Zarriss due to the fact that mass debuffers forced me to. Take away that tenacity up, and we'll be back to Zaul everywhere in a day. Rex lead triple cleanse teams are very easily beaten by:
1. Damage dealers that don't require debuffs.
2. Debuff teams with Baze, Deathtrooper, or B2. Insert AoE debuffer, and PROCEED AS PLANNED!
3. Zader lead with speed advantage and/or AoE debuffer. Just gotta get em on once.
Tenacity up is the check against the rampant flood of debuffs. And the triple cleanse is the ultimate response to the ultimate debuff squad. The last thing you want to do is take that away. More diversity is returning to my arena every day. And the reason is cleanse teams are easily beaten by a variety of teams. Unlike Zaul teams which single handedly make multiple teams unusable.
I agree that the cleanses are out of control -- hence my reddit post, if any of you view there as well. This is a serious issue, because it has nullified so many characters. Any characters that rely on debuffs basically barely work right now. Most top arena teams are running 3 or 4 full team cleansers....
Leef, I love your comments that you have no issues and use debuffers, since your arena team is Rex (L, cleanser), GK (cleanser), R2 (cleanser), Zylo, and DN. Thanks, but no thanks.
you've got that backwards, debuffs are so effective that people use not only 1 cleanser, but even up to 4 cleansers.
I'd also like to note that my R2 doesn't have a zeta on his cleansing unique and that my characters are debuffed ALOT during arena matches.
You bring up an interesting point -- that the cleansers are so prevalent because the debuffers are strong. I had to think about that a little while, but in the end I still stand by an initial point:
My problem with the current situation is that the cleansers are too powerful in other areas too. They are not narrowly useful for cleanse. Even if you took their cleanse away, they would still be heavily used characters. I don't think it would dramatically affect their level of play -- Rex, GK, and Chirrut still rock even without a cleanse. On the other side, with most teams (9 of my top 10 are rex leads, December 2015 shard) unable to apply buffs against these toons, they do not have any usefulness. TFP without debuffs is, well, not really that good. Nor is Zam. Nor is EP. So all the debuffers suck without debuffs, but all the cleansers are great even without cleanse. That is where the imbalance lies.
There are two good fixes for this: Fix Tenacity Up, making it just add a small % instead of making debuffing impossible, or start to introduce characters who can guarantee application of debuffs regardless of tenacity up, AND who can guarantee that buffs cannot be cleansed (like vader can now on dots).
I mainly use Rex/GK/Zarriss due to the fact that mass debuffers forced me to. Take away that tenacity up, and we'll be back to Zaul everywhere in a day. Rex lead triple cleanse teams are very easily beaten by:
1. Damage dealers that don't require debuffs.
2. Debuff teams with Baze, Deathtrooper, or B2. Insert AoE debuffer, and PROCEED AS PLANNED!
3. Zader lead with speed advantage and/or AoE debuffer. Just gotta get em on once.
Tenacity up is the check against the rampant flood of debuffs. And the triple cleanse is the ultimate response to the ultimate debuff squad. The last thing you want to do is take that away. More diversity is returning to my arena every day. And the reason is cleanse teams are easily beaten by a variety of teams. Unlike Zaul teams which single handedly make multiple teams unusable.
Why are those teams not popping up then? I don't see any B2's in my top 50, empire teams are virtually gone, and what is an example of a damage dealing team that does require debuffs? Also, what does your example #2 do? So the tenacity up is cleaned away, and you go ahead and debuff, and then cleanser #3 or #4 ruins the day. I don't see that as viable.
My shard is down to extremely little diversity, ever since zaul came and now triple cleanse. The only reason we have any at all is because some of us (myself included) are forcing it with sub-par teams.
I agree that the cleanses are out of control -- hence my reddit post, if any of you view there as well. This is a serious issue, because it has nullified so many characters. Any characters that rely on debuffs basically barely work right now. Most top arena teams are running 3 or 4 full team cleansers....
Leef, I love your comments that you have no issues and use debuffers, since your arena team is Rex (L, cleanser), GK (cleanser), R2 (cleanser), Zylo, and DN. Thanks, but no thanks.
you've got that backwards, debuffs are so effective that people use not only 1 cleanser, but even up to 4 cleansers.
I'd also like to note that my R2 doesn't have a zeta on his cleansing unique and that my characters are debuffed ALOT during arena matches.
You bring up an interesting point -- that the cleansers are so prevalent because the debuffers are strong. I had to think about that a little while, but in the end I still stand by an initial point:
My problem with the current situation is that the cleansers are too powerful in other areas too. They are not narrowly useful for cleanse. Even if you took their cleanse away, they would still be heavily used characters. I don't think it would dramatically affect their level of play -- Rex, GK, and Chirrut still rock even without a cleanse. On the other side, with most teams (9 of my top 10 are rex leads, December 2015 shard) unable to apply buffs against these toons, they do not have any usefulness. TFP without debuffs is, well, not really that good. Nor is Zam. Nor is EP. So all the debuffers suck without debuffs, but all the cleansers are great even without cleanse. That is where the imbalance lies.
There are two good fixes for this: Fix Tenacity Up, making it just add a small % instead of making debuffing impossible, or start to introduce characters who can guarantee application of debuffs regardless of tenacity up, AND who can guarantee that buffs cannot be cleansed (like vader can now on dots).
so basically it's just a meta complaint in disguise. Your problem doesn't lie with tenacity or with mass cleanse, but just with those 3 characters. That's fine and please don't take it the wrong way. i just don't want the tenacity as a stat, tenacity up and cleanse mechanics to change just because it's super effective in the current meta.
Like i said, debuffs are still relevent even in this cleanse/tenacity up heavy meta. The meta will change eventually and hopefully without changes to either of those mechanics.
Personally I actually don't think cleanse and tenacity up should be put on the same toons from a balance standpoint. Rex and Chirrut obviously break these distinctions but it makes much more sense to me that you should either be required to have increased tenacity to resist debuffs or attempt to cleanse them afterwards and run the risk of being ability blocked / stunned / etc.
Obviously, what's done is done but I'd prefer if they kept those mechanics separate on toons in the future to encourage diversity.
B2 has been mentioned. He is a solid toon. I use him in an arena squad with no debuffers, even. Rex, chaze, dn, b2 is great vs zqgj squads for killing taunt and buff blocking foresight. For some reason buff block also stops anni unique. But it will win even against other meta squads. Cuz b2 is totally decent.
if rex didn't have tenacity up, i'd drop him as lead in a minute. with it he essentially forces the other team to have an area dispeller of which there're very few options.
without it he's just a very squishy toon who helps his team get more turns. While more turns is nice, if it was more turns but heavily debuffed after the initital cleanse, then the team still won't be able to function.
i do agree GK has way more utility than just his cleanse, and so do Chaze as a duo. But Rex has just about the right amount of utility.
But overall i agree with whoever that said, the only reason cleansers are important is 'cause debuffs are so good. they're so good that multiple cleansers are forced. Believe me i'd rather run an all attack team, but i can't do so against so many debuff heavy dark side squads.
I agree that the cleanses are out of control -- hence my reddit post, if any of you view there as well. This is a serious issue, because it has nullified so many characters. Any characters that rely on debuffs basically barely work right now. Most top arena teams are running 3 or 4 full team cleansers....
Leef, I love your comments that you have no issues and use debuffers, since your arena team is Rex (L, cleanser), GK (cleanser), R2 (cleanser), Zylo, and DN. Thanks, but no thanks.
you've got that backwards, debuffs are so effective that people use not only 1 cleanser, but even up to 4 cleansers.
I'd also like to note that my R2 doesn't have a zeta on his cleansing unique and that my characters are debuffed ALOT during arena matches.
You bring up an interesting point -- that the cleansers are so prevalent because the debuffers are strong. I had to think about that a little while, but in the end I still stand by an initial point:
My problem with the current situation is that the cleansers are too powerful in other areas too. They are not narrowly useful for cleanse. Even if you took their cleanse away, they would still be heavily used characters. I don't think it would dramatically affect their level of play -- Rex, GK, and Chirrut still rock even without a cleanse. On the other side, with most teams (9 of my top 10 are rex leads, December 2015 shard) unable to apply buffs against these toons, they do not have any usefulness. TFP without debuffs is, well, not really that good. Nor is Zam. Nor is EP. So all the debuffers suck without debuffs, but all the cleansers are great even without cleanse. That is where the imbalance lies.
There are two good fixes for this: Fix Tenacity Up, making it just add a small % instead of making debuffing impossible, or start to introduce characters who can guarantee application of debuffs regardless of tenacity up, AND who can guarantee that buffs cannot be cleansed (like vader can now on dots).
so basically it's just a meta complaint in disguise. Your problem doesn't lie with tenacity or with mass cleanse, but just with those 3 characters. That's fine and please don't take it the wrong way. i just don't want the tenacity as a stat, tenacity up and cleanse mechanics to change just because it's super effective in the current meta.
Like i said, debuffs are still relevent even in this cleanse/tenacity up heavy meta. The meta will change eventually and hopefully without changes to either of those mechanics.
I don't know that I consider my complaint to be a meta complaint, but I see how it can be taken as such. My complaint is that the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater -- in countering Zaul, many many other characters and teams have been hit by collateral damage of no debuffs working anymore. And in the past, when the meta has shifted a cleanse meta, it usually was very targeted and fleeting, because the threat went away, then so did the cleansing teams. This current cleansing team is so powerful that it doesn't need to go away once Zaul is gone.
Look at the %'s from swgoh.gg:
For rank 1-10 teams:
63% of teams are running at least 2 of the 4 big cleansers, most also including a third, some a fourth. Overall, 25% of all top 10 teams are running the exact same team -- Rex (L), Chirrut, Baze, GK, DN
31% of teams are running Zaul
That leaves 6% for 'something else'. Not very much. Not very healthy.
I agree that the cleanses are out of control -- hence my reddit post, if any of you view there as well. This is a serious issue, because it has nullified so many characters. Any characters that rely on debuffs basically barely work right now. Most top arena teams are running 3 or 4 full team cleansers....
Leef, I love your comments that you have no issues and use debuffers, since your arena team is Rex (L, cleanser), GK (cleanser), R2 (cleanser), Zylo, and DN. Thanks, but no thanks.
you've got that backwards, debuffs are so effective that people use not only 1 cleanser, but even up to 4 cleansers.
I'd also like to note that my R2 doesn't have a zeta on his cleansing unique and that my characters are debuffed ALOT during arena matches.
You bring up an interesting point -- that the cleansers are so prevalent because the debuffers are strong. I had to think about that a little while, but in the end I still stand by an initial point:
My problem with the current situation is that the cleansers are too powerful in other areas too. They are not narrowly useful for cleanse. Even if you took their cleanse away, they would still be heavily used characters. I don't think it would dramatically affect their level of play -- Rex, GK, and Chirrut still rock even without a cleanse. On the other side, with most teams (9 of my top 10 are rex leads, December 2015 shard) unable to apply buffs against these toons, they do not have any usefulness. TFP without debuffs is, well, not really that good. Nor is Zam. Nor is EP. So all the debuffers suck without debuffs, but all the cleansers are great even without cleanse. That is where the imbalance lies.
There are two good fixes for this: Fix Tenacity Up, making it just add a small % instead of making debuffing impossible, or start to introduce characters who can guarantee application of debuffs regardless of tenacity up, AND who can guarantee that buffs cannot be cleansed (like vader can now on dots).
so basically it's just a meta complaint in disguise. Your problem doesn't lie with tenacity or with mass cleanse, but just with those 3 characters. That's fine and please don't take it the wrong way. i just don't want the tenacity as a stat, tenacity up and cleanse mechanics to change just because it's super effective in the current meta.
Like i said, debuffs are still relevent even in this cleanse/tenacity up heavy meta. The meta will change eventually and hopefully without changes to either of those mechanics.
I don't know that I consider my complaint to be a meta complaint, but I see how it can be taken as such. My complaint is that the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater -- in countering Zaul, many many other characters and teams have been hit by collateral damage of no debuffs working anymore. And in the past, when the meta has shifted a cleanse meta, it usually was very targeted and fleeting, because the threat went away, then so did the cleansing teams. This current cleansing team is so powerful that it doesn't need to go away once Zaul is gone.
Look at the %'s from swgoh.gg:
For rank 1-10 teams:
63% of teams are running at least 2 of the 4 big cleansers, most also including a third, some a fourth. Overall, 25% of all top 10 teams are running the exact same team -- Rex (L), Chirrut, Baze, GK, DN
31% of teams are running Zaul
That leaves 6% for 'something else'. Not very much. Not very healthy.
Someone else kept pointing to the #1 squad comps as proof of Rex's need for a nerf. I however looked at my top 50 since nobody holds number one in my arena. We all drop a bit, and have to climb back at payout. 27 of the top 50 are Zaul lead. The rest of the 23 spots are divided between 8 characters with Rex being most popular out of those 8, but still less than half of what Zaul is.
SWGOH.gg doesn't have a top 50, but if you drop to top 100 Zaul is currently ahead of Rex by 8 points for top 100 squads.
What that means for me in practical terms is that it took people 3 months to gear up a Sith squad that brutalized every team thrown at it. We solved that puzzle with the triple cleanse, but it will take months of gearing to get a new squad. In the mean time a layer of triple cleansers are sitting on top of an ocean of Zaul teams, and forcing them to retool.
Multiple cleanse/tenacity up teams are single handedly forcing change. Without them the meta would be congealed to 70% Zaul leads.
Interesting to note that the same podcast that revealed the Tarkin rework and Ahsoka, also noted that Rex lead actually dropped a couple points this week.
I agree that the cleanses are out of control -- hence my reddit post, if any of you view there as well. This is a serious issue, because it has nullified so many characters. Any characters that rely on debuffs basically barely work right now. Most top arena teams are running 3 or 4 full team cleansers....
Leef, I love your comments that you have no issues and use debuffers, since your arena team is Rex (L, cleanser), GK (cleanser), R2 (cleanser), Zylo, and DN. Thanks, but no thanks.
you've got that backwards, debuffs are so effective that people use not only 1 cleanser, but even up to 4 cleansers.
I'd also like to note that my R2 doesn't have a zeta on his cleansing unique and that my characters are debuffed ALOT during arena matches.
You bring up an interesting point -- that the cleansers are so prevalent because the debuffers are strong. I had to think about that a little while, but in the end I still stand by an initial point:
My problem with the current situation is that the cleansers are too powerful in other areas too. They are not narrowly useful for cleanse. Even if you took their cleanse away, they would still be heavily used characters. I don't think it would dramatically affect their level of play -- Rex, GK, and Chirrut still rock even without a cleanse. On the other side, with most teams (9 of my top 10 are rex leads, December 2015 shard) unable to apply buffs against these toons, they do not have any usefulness. TFP without debuffs is, well, not really that good. Nor is Zam. Nor is EP. So all the debuffers suck without debuffs, but all the cleansers are great even without cleanse. That is where the imbalance lies.
There are two good fixes for this: Fix Tenacity Up, making it just add a small % instead of making debuffing impossible, or start to introduce characters who can guarantee application of debuffs regardless of tenacity up, AND who can guarantee that buffs cannot be cleansed (like vader can now on dots).
so basically it's just a meta complaint in disguise. Your problem doesn't lie with tenacity or with mass cleanse, but just with those 3 characters. That's fine and please don't take it the wrong way. i just don't want the tenacity as a stat, tenacity up and cleanse mechanics to change just because it's super effective in the current meta.
Like i said, debuffs are still relevent even in this cleanse/tenacity up heavy meta. The meta will change eventually and hopefully without changes to either of those mechanics.
I don't know that I consider my complaint to be a meta complaint, but I see how it can be taken as such. My complaint is that the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater -- in countering Zaul, many many other characters and teams have been hit by collateral damage of no debuffs working anymore. And in the past, when the meta has shifted a cleanse meta, it usually was very targeted and fleeting, because the threat went away, then so did the cleansing teams. This current cleansing team is so powerful that it doesn't need to go away once Zaul is gone.
Look at the %'s from swgoh.gg:
For rank 1-10 teams:
63% of teams are running at least 2 of the 4 big cleansers, most also including a third, some a fourth. Overall, 25% of all top 10 teams are running the exact same team -- Rex (L), Chirrut, Baze, GK, DN
31% of teams are running Zaul
That leaves 6% for 'something else'. Not very much. Not very healthy.
Someone else kept pointing to the #1 squad comps as proof of Rex's need for a nerf. I however looked at my top 50 since nobody holds number one in my arena. We all drop a bit, and have to climb back at payout. 27 of the top 50 are Zaul lead. The rest of the 23 spots are divided between 8 characters with Rex being most popular out of those 8, but still less than half of what Zaul is.
SWGOH.gg doesn't have a top 50, but if you drop to top 100 Zaul is currently ahead of Rex by 8 points for top 100 squads.
What that means for me in practical terms is that it took people 3 months to gear up a Sith squad that brutalized every team thrown at it. We solved that puzzle with the triple cleanse, but it will take months of gearing to get a new squad. In the mean time a layer of triple cleansers are sitting on top of an ocean of Zaul teams, and forcing them to retool.
Multiple cleanse/tenacity up teams are single handedly forcing change. Without them the meta would be congealed to 70% Zaul leads.
Interesting to note that the same podcast that revealed the Tarkin rework and Ahsoka, also noted that Rex lead actually dropped a couple points this week.
So, DC Legends is a worse game than this one is, in almost every respect, but there's one thing they got right, and that's cleansing buffs and debuffs. Nothing (AFAIK) in that game cleanses ALL the buffs or debuffs on a character - instead they just cleanse X buffs or debuffs (determined at random, if the character has more of the appropriate type of status effect than that). Hand-in-hand with that system, you can pile on multiple (non-stacking) copies of some buffs or debuffs, just to make them harder to remove - for instance, 3 stacks of the "Taunt" type buff is a much harder-to-remove taunt than just 1 stack, and likewise a single stack of "stun" is easily cleansed off but multiple stacks of "stun" doesn't stun for multiple turns, it's just much harder to cleanse away.
And long-term, that's the best fix here. It provides for not only a more fine-grained control over the power of the cleansers but also gives the devs more ways of differentiating between characters; characters that *also* have tons of other utility (damage output, tanking, w/e) can have weaker, less effective cleanses that remove 1-2 debuffs, while more strictly healing-and-support characters can have the ability to remove 3-4 debuffs from everyone. Mass dispels might remove 1-2 buffs from everyone whereas single-target dispels would remove, say, 5 buffs. Tanks could put up more or fewer stacks of Taunt depending on how hard the devs intend it to be to get around the particular tank.
But I have to imagine it would require a pretty extensive codebase overhaul and I'm not sure CG will see there as being enough money in it to justify the time and expense. Depends on how long they want this game to last, I guess.
debuffs allow me to win battles, even vs the famous "tripple cleanse" team. They're far from irrelevent.
No they're definitely getting there. The direction the game is heading only effects that specifically can't be resisted will land
B2.
There they go, every time I start talkin' 'bout cleanses, a white man got to pull Rocky "B2" Marciano out they____. That's their one, that's their one!
debuffs allow me to win battles, even vs the famous "tripple cleanse" team. They're far from irrelevent.
No they're definitely getting there. The direction the game is heading only effects that specifically can't be resisted will land
B2.
There they go, every time I start talkin' 'bout cleanses, a white man got to pull Rocky "B2" Marciano out they____. That's their one, that's their one!
I find it somewhat odd that there are complaints about AOE cleansers negating AOE debuffers. Complain about 3 cleansers... cause it negates your 3 AOE debuffers lol.
Pot meet Kettle and fyi you both are black.
It is balanced, debuffs are generally more powerful then buffs imo. The super buffs are strong in one thing, whereas the super debuffs are multiple debuffs in one.
While I do agree tenacity up shouldn't be immunity, I also believe all the AOE everything, painted the devs into the corner we are seeing. The only way out is powercreep..
I agree that the cleanses are out of control -- hence my reddit post, if any of you view there as well. This is a serious issue, because it has nullified so many characters. Any characters that rely on debuffs basically barely work right now. Most top arena teams are running 3 or 4 full team cleansers....
Leef, I love your comments that you have no issues and use debuffers, since your arena team is Rex (L, cleanser), GK (cleanser), R2 (cleanser), Zylo, and DN. Thanks, but no thanks.
you've got that backwards, debuffs are so effective that people use not only 1 cleanser, but even up to 4 cleansers.
I'd also like to note that my R2 doesn't have a zeta on his cleansing unique and that my characters are debuffed ALOT during arena matches.
This is true - but those cleansers are dominating that matchup. At optimal usage, stacked cleansers dominate debuffers and shut down their control ability.
So far, this is a repeat of other games I've played and especially CG's other large game, Heroes of Dragon Age. I'm wondering if this is a pattern in all these games with dark / light - bad / good. In DA, Blighted characters were similar to evil / dark side. They loaded them up with all these great negative effects - enemy slow, power reduction, power gain curse, stun, etc. They were of moderate health and moderate damage output generally, but relied on control / pin...much like EP / TFP, DK, DM ... the light side guys, Inquisition, were very strong and had some good protections vs. all the effects but one, power drain. This made them still vulnerable to a well built blighted team despite the Inquisition having batter overall stats (damage / health). Inquisition was the #1 overall team though vs. the balance of the roster. Blights keep in mind, were hard countered by a 3rd faction of slow damage-dealing tanks (Qunari) that were basically immune to negative effects, but were slow and single hitters. But what happened? An Inquisition hero was introduced that made Inquisition immune to power drain - so that Blight team's controls were totally useless and it was just a pure stat battle. Broke the RPS part of the game completely. Neg effects became pretty useless at a meta level for 6+ months.
So it might be that in these games, the unavoidable pattern is that devs create sweet effect for dark / evil characters than make them useless vs. lightside heroes that end up immune to the effects and just out stat them. Essentially, dark characters get stat balanced, like EP, to consider the neg effects in their kit - light side get more stats to account for lack of debuffs, but this ends up way out of whack when the light side team ends up immune to the dark side debuffs and it becomes a stat battle.
Replies
Yeah.. i'm talking to u vader and boba.
I mainly use Rex/GK/Zarriss due to the fact that mass debuffers forced me to. Take away that tenacity up, and we'll be back to Zaul everywhere in a day. Rex lead triple cleanse teams are very easily beaten by:
1. Damage dealers that don't require debuffs.
2. Debuff teams with Baze, Deathtrooper, or B2. Insert AoE debuffer, and PROCEED AS PLANNED!
3. Zader lead with speed advantage and/or AoE debuffer. Just gotta get em on once.
Tenacity up is the check against the rampant flood of debuffs. And the triple cleanse is the ultimate response to the ultimate debuff squad. The last thing you want to do is take that away. More diversity is returning to my arena every day. And the reason is cleanse teams are easily beaten by a variety of teams. Unlike Zaul teams which single handedly make multiple teams unusable.
Why are those teams not popping up then? I don't see any B2's in my top 50, empire teams are virtually gone, and what is an example of a damage dealing team that does require debuffs? Also, what does your example #2 do? So the tenacity up is cleaned away, and you go ahead and debuff, and then cleanser #3 or #4 ruins the day. I don't see that as viable.
My shard is down to extremely little diversity, ever since zaul came and now triple cleanse. The only reason we have any at all is because some of us (myself included) are forcing it with sub-par teams.
so basically it's just a meta complaint in disguise. Your problem doesn't lie with tenacity or with mass cleanse, but just with those 3 characters. That's fine and please don't take it the wrong way. i just don't want the tenacity as a stat, tenacity up and cleanse mechanics to change just because it's super effective in the current meta.
Like i said, debuffs are still relevent even in this cleanse/tenacity up heavy meta. The meta will change eventually and hopefully without changes to either of those mechanics.
Obviously, what's done is done but I'd prefer if they kept those mechanics separate on toons in the future to encourage diversity.
Only rex can cleanse AND apply tenacity up. If ur fast u can debuff and ability block... and kill rex before he pops?
without it he's just a very squishy toon who helps his team get more turns. While more turns is nice, if it was more turns but heavily debuffed after the initital cleanse, then the team still won't be able to function.
i do agree GK has way more utility than just his cleanse, and so do Chaze as a duo. But Rex has just about the right amount of utility.
But overall i agree with whoever that said, the only reason cleansers are important is 'cause debuffs are so good. they're so good that multiple cleansers are forced. Believe me i'd rather run an all attack team, but i can't do so against so many debuff heavy dark side squads.
I don't know that I consider my complaint to be a meta complaint, but I see how it can be taken as such. My complaint is that the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater -- in countering Zaul, many many other characters and teams have been hit by collateral damage of no debuffs working anymore. And in the past, when the meta has shifted a cleanse meta, it usually was very targeted and fleeting, because the threat went away, then so did the cleansing teams. This current cleansing team is so powerful that it doesn't need to go away once Zaul is gone.
Look at the %'s from swgoh.gg:
For rank 1-10 teams:
63% of teams are running at least 2 of the 4 big cleansers, most also including a third, some a fourth. Overall, 25% of all top 10 teams are running the exact same team -- Rex (L), Chirrut, Baze, GK, DN
31% of teams are running Zaul
That leaves 6% for 'something else'. Not very much. Not very healthy.
Someone else kept pointing to the #1 squad comps as proof of Rex's need for a nerf. I however looked at my top 50 since nobody holds number one in my arena. We all drop a bit, and have to climb back at payout. 27 of the top 50 are Zaul lead. The rest of the 23 spots are divided between 8 characters with Rex being most popular out of those 8, but still less than half of what Zaul is.
SWGOH.gg doesn't have a top 50, but if you drop to top 100 Zaul is currently ahead of Rex by 8 points for top 100 squads.
What that means for me in practical terms is that it took people 3 months to gear up a Sith squad that brutalized every team thrown at it. We solved that puzzle with the triple cleanse, but it will take months of gearing to get a new squad. In the mean time a layer of triple cleansers are sitting on top of an ocean of Zaul teams, and forcing them to retool.
Multiple cleanse/tenacity up teams are single handedly forcing change. Without them the meta would be congealed to 70% Zaul leads.
Interesting to note that the same podcast that revealed the Tarkin rework and Ahsoka, also noted that Rex lead actually dropped a couple points this week.
You sir, have summed it up perfectly.
And long-term, that's the best fix here. It provides for not only a more fine-grained control over the power of the cleansers but also gives the devs more ways of differentiating between characters; characters that *also* have tons of other utility (damage output, tanking, w/e) can have weaker, less effective cleanses that remove 1-2 debuffs, while more strictly healing-and-support characters can have the ability to remove 3-4 debuffs from everyone. Mass dispels might remove 1-2 buffs from everyone whereas single-target dispels would remove, say, 5 buffs. Tanks could put up more or fewer stacks of Taunt depending on how hard the devs intend it to be to get around the particular tank.
But I have to imagine it would require a pretty extensive codebase overhaul and I'm not sure CG will see there as being enough money in it to justify the time and expense. Depends on how long they want this game to last, I guess.
There they go, every time I start talkin' 'bout cleanses, a white man got to pull Rocky "B2" Marciano out they____. That's their one, that's their one!
; )
Pot meet Kettle and fyi you both are black.
It is balanced, debuffs are generally more powerful then buffs imo. The super buffs are strong in one thing, whereas the super debuffs are multiple debuffs in one.
While I do agree tenacity up shouldn't be immunity, I also believe all the AOE everything, painted the devs into the corner we are seeing. The only way out is powercreep..
This is true - but those cleansers are dominating that matchup. At optimal usage, stacked cleansers dominate debuffers and shut down their control ability.
So far, this is a repeat of other games I've played and especially CG's other large game, Heroes of Dragon Age. I'm wondering if this is a pattern in all these games with dark / light - bad / good. In DA, Blighted characters were similar to evil / dark side. They loaded them up with all these great negative effects - enemy slow, power reduction, power gain curse, stun, etc. They were of moderate health and moderate damage output generally, but relied on control / pin...much like EP / TFP, DK, DM ... the light side guys, Inquisition, were very strong and had some good protections vs. all the effects but one, power drain. This made them still vulnerable to a well built blighted team despite the Inquisition having batter overall stats (damage / health). Inquisition was the #1 overall team though vs. the balance of the roster. Blights keep in mind, were hard countered by a 3rd faction of slow damage-dealing tanks (Qunari) that were basically immune to negative effects, but were slow and single hitters. But what happened? An Inquisition hero was introduced that made Inquisition immune to power drain - so that Blight team's controls were totally useless and it was just a pure stat battle. Broke the RPS part of the game completely. Neg effects became pretty useless at a meta level for 6+ months.
So it might be that in these games, the unavoidable pattern is that devs create sweet effect for dark / evil characters than make them useless vs. lightside heroes that end up immune to the effects and just out stat them. Essentially, dark characters get stat balanced, like EP, to consider the neg effects in their kit - light side get more stats to account for lack of debuffs, but this ends up way out of whack when the light side team ends up immune to the dark side debuffs and it becomes a stat battle.
If Ten Up only did a % Tenacity bonus, how would you explain Tenacity Down, which modifies by 9000%?
Tenacity up adds 999900% tenacity
Tenacity Down subtracts 999900% tenacity