Anakins Father theory...

https://youtu.be/lc9WAI9ZOzc

Interesting ideas.

Replies

  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    Interesting, but as we all know Lucas was going quite insane at the time of the PT and this would have been another insane idea.

    Also this information was cut and cannot be considered cannon.

    What we do know is that it is strongly hinted that Sidious was the apprentice to Plagueis who could create life, and sidious "murdered" him to become Sith Master.

    I strongly believe that the most logical explanation of all of this is the Plagueis/Snoke theory.

    If a mere force user could create life, this would destroy the idea behind the prophecy of the chosen one that the force itself willed the creation of life...Anakin.

    Perhaps, through Plagueis' experiments in this area, the force acted through him to create life, and that Plagueis alone was not solely responsible for the act.

    This would likely anger Plagueis, that he is not as powerful as he wants to be and thought he was. He realized that to become more powerful he would have to accept and study a larger view of the force itself. He was already a Sith and trained in the darkside, he would have to look into the light side of the force.

    Sidious explains this himself to Anakin in regard to following the light as a jedi. To be a powerful force user, he would need to understand the dark as well.

    In order for Plagueis to explore the teachings of the light side - he could no longer be a Sith. Indeed, as powerful as the title of Sith Master was - it ultimately failed him by not fully controlling the act of creating life. He would need to leave the Sith Order.

    He allowed Sidious to believe he was murdered so that Sidious could take over.

    Sidious perhaps later realized the Plagueis was not actualy dead. Sidious initially explained to Anakin that Plagueis could save other from death but not himself (as he smiles with glee in rememberence of plagueis' murder). However, SIdious later confesses to Anakin: "To cheat death is a power only one has achieved." So now sidious is stating thatPlagueis was able to save himself/cheat death.

    This also trickles into the pre-Force Awakens novel, where it explains that the Imperial station/observatory on Jakku was built to chart hyperspace routes into the unknown regions of the galaxy - as there a dark power existed. This is perhaps Sidious now looking for Plaguis - who is now known as Snoke, after shredding his Sith alias.

    Although Plagueis was described as a Muun - this is also no longer cannon - so he could be Snoke.

    This would explain why in the novel of the Force Awakens why Snoke states he had seen the rise and fall of the empire.

    This would also (as movies need to have bigger and badder villains and action sequences as they go along) explain why Snoke is more powerful than Sidious, but also explain why SIdious, being the Emperor of the Galactic Empire - was not able to destroy Snoke, yet protect the integrity of Sidious as the villain - compared to SNoke being around just because.

    This would also explain why the music score played in ROTS where palpatine is speaking to Anakin about Plagueis, is almost identical to the music score used in TFA when SNoke makes his first appearance on screen.

    This would also explain why Snoke is obsessed with the Skywalker lineage - Kylo, and Kylo's ongoing pull to the light indicates that he is a vessel to be used in both light and dark aspects of the force. Kylo's training with Snoke will therefore most likely parody Rey's training with Luke in regard to the grey aspect of the force.

    I personally hope the the Snoke/Plagueis theory is correct, as it is the best theory that explains much and ties into the grey aspect of the force (where the story seems to be heading) and may also help explain the myster surrounding Anakin's creation and the prophecy of the chosen one.

    Sorry - bit of a long post, lol
  • Interesting points, however if we strictly interpret SNOKE as it has been suggested by the acronym "Sith No One Knew Existed" we can only surmise he is a character that was unknown to all. Narrowing the definition of all to those we have seen on screen and in the novels ruled to be canon of course. To that end he is a hitherto unknown or undefined character, meaning he is yet to be identified. By any. QED.

    LOL
  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    Interesting points, however if we strictly interpret SNOKE as it has been suggested by the acronym "Sith No One Knew Existed" we can only surmise he is a character that was unknown to all. Narrowing the definition of all to those we have seen on screen and in the novels ruled to be canon of course. To that end he is a hitherto unknown or undefined character, meaning he is yet to be identified. By any. QED.

    LOL

    True - but he can't be sith.

    Sith were destroyed in ROTJ, as per the prophecy. This is why Kylo is a Knight of Ren (whatever that means) rather than a sith - and also why he does not hold a sith tag in this game.

    The sith are done - which would still fall true if Plagueis is Snoke, as he had to leave the sith order to study the force in all its aspects rather than just the dark side - similar to Anakin leaving the jedi order to become sith to learn of the dark side.

    Perhaps what he is or has become is an evolution of sith into something else.

    But who the hec knows - I have this sinking feeling that Disney will mess it all up anyway and make out that Snoke was some dark force user who sprang up out of nowhere - like a cabbage patch kid.

    I think the snoke/plagueis story not only clears a lot of plot holes, but also expands on the mystery of the character, who bested/tricked sidious in order to ultimately gain more power for himself in the force and take over control of sidious' empire remnant - making him a dangerous foe indeed - rather than someone who just simply existed in shadow.

    The latter seems a little weak for a story line of the new bad guy who is to rival what we have seen on screen already, Vader & Palpatine.
  • Jedi/Sith are titles bestowed, I think we are headed to the reality of "There is no Light Side, there is no Dark Side, there is only the Force and what we do with it". Similar themes are used in many stories of "magic". Furthermore it follows with Lukes statement "it's time for the Jedi to end", that this revelation may finally be accepted, and explored. Bruce Lee said all styles have an inherent weakness. "Form without Form". Why not the Force as well? And this would not be the emmergence of "Greys", since that denotes the existance but non adherence to Light/Dark disciplines. It would be the rise or birth of Force Sensitives, as a group. Which would fullfill the prophecy of Anakin bringing balance (in a long and drawn out way) to the force. If all are one, balance is achieved.
  • Supercat
    3250 posts Member
    Jedi/Sith are titles bestowed, I think we are headed to the reality of "There is no Light Side, there is no Dark Side, there is only the Force and what we do with it". Similar themes are used in many stories of "magic". Furthermore it follows with Lukes statement "it's time for the Jedi to end", that this revelation may finally be accepted, and explored. Bruce Lee said all styles have an inherent weakness. "Form without Form". Why not the Force as well? And this would not be the emmergence of "Greys", since that denotes the existance but non adherence to Light/Dark disciplines. It would be the rise or birth of Force Sensitives, as a group. Which would fullfill the prophecy of Anakin bringing balance (in a long and drawn out way) to the force. If all are one, balance is achieved.

    I hope Disney doesn't cliche this.
    Don't be a ****(4), and follow forum guidelines.
  • DatBoi
    3615 posts Member
    Supercat wrote: »
    Jedi/Sith are titles bestowed, I think we are headed to the reality of "There is no Light Side, there is no Dark Side, there is only the Force and what we do with it". Similar themes are used in many stories of "magic". Furthermore it follows with Lukes statement "it's time for the Jedi to end", that this revelation may finally be accepted, and explored. Bruce Lee said all styles have an inherent weakness. "Form without Form". Why not the Force as well? And this would not be the emmergence of "Greys", since that denotes the existance but non adherence to Light/Dark disciplines. It would be the rise or birth of Force Sensitives, as a group. Which would fullfill the prophecy of Anakin bringing balance (in a long and drawn out way) to the force. If all are one, balance is achieved.

    I hope Disney doesn't cliche this.

    *lucasfilm
  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    Jedi/Sith are titles bestowed, I think we are headed to the reality of "There is no Light Side, there is no Dark Side, there is only the Force and what we do with it". Similar themes are used in many stories of "magic". Furthermore it follows with Lukes statement "it's time for the Jedi to end", that this revelation may finally be accepted, and explored. Bruce Lee said all styles have an inherent weakness. "Form without Form". Why not the Force as well? And this would not be the emmergence of "Greys", since that denotes the existance but non adherence to Light/Dark disciplines. It would be the rise or birth of Force Sensitives, as a group. Which would fullfill the prophecy of Anakin bringing balance (in a long and drawn out way) to the force. If all are one, balance is achieved.

    Totally agree with you on that one - but I think grey is definitely in existence (Light/Dark) as Rey says she sees light and dark and there have clearly been force users that study light (jedi) and dark (sith) - but you are totally right - whatever we end up with it being called, grey or the one in the middle - the bendu, it totally falls in line with what you are saying.

    Indeed this would be the fulfillment of Anakin's chosen one prophecy of bringing balance to the force. I believe that the prophecy lives on in luke, as luke's existence is based on the chosen one's actions in life (being Anakin's son). Although Anakin destroyed the jedi and ultimately the sith, luke remains as a jedi - the last jedi. He now stating it is time for the jedi to end and bringing balance in the force with use of light and dark - the prophecy is fulfilled.

    I really hope Disney & Lucasfilm don't mess this up - they can do fantastic things with all of this, but look how many other cool movies got screwed up and ended in shame:

    Alien Resurrection
    AVP Requiem
    Predators
    Bat v. Superman
    Terminator Salvation & Genesys
    last but not least....Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull!!!!

    All fantastic original movies that got destroyed, because some **** producer or director in a boardroom got crazy.
  • Boo wrote: »
    Jedi/Sith are titles bestowed, I think we are headed to the reality of "There is no Light Side, there is no Dark Side, there is only the Force and what we do with it". Similar themes are used in many stories of "magic". Furthermore it follows with Lukes statement "it's time for the Jedi to end", that this revelation may finally be accepted, and explored. Bruce Lee said all styles have an inherent weakness. "Form without Form". Why not the Force as well? And this would not be the emmergence of "Greys", since that denotes the existance but non adherence to Light/Dark disciplines. It would be the rise or birth of Force Sensitives, as a group. Which would fullfill the prophecy of Anakin bringing balance (in a long and drawn out way) to the force. If all are one, balance is achieved.

    Totally agree with you on that one - but I think grey is definitely in existence (Light/Dark) as Rey says she sees light and dark and there have clearly been force users that study light (jedi) and dark (sith) - but you are totally right - whatever we end up with it being called, grey or the one in the middle - the bendu, it totally falls in line with what you are saying.

    Indeed this would be the fulfillment of Anakin's chosen one prophecy of bringing balance to the force. I believe that the prophecy lives on in luke, as luke's existence is based on the chosen one's actions in life (being Anakin's son). Although Anakin destroyed the jedi and ultimately the sith, luke remains as a jedi - the last jedi. He now stating it is time for the jedi to end and bringing balance in the force with use of light and dark - the prophecy is fulfilled.

    I really hope Disney & Lucasfilm don't mess this up - they can do fantastic things with all of this, but look how many other cool movies got screwed up and ended in shame:

    Alien Resurrection
    AVP Requiem
    Predators
    Bat v. Superman
    Terminator Salvation & Genesys
    last but not least....Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull!!!!

    All fantastic original movies that got destroyed, because some **** producer or director in a boardroom got crazy.

    Indeed, I am watching ROTJ as I type this, earlier Luke went to Jabbas to free Han and Leia. As he entered he force persaded Jabbas go between, and FORCE CHOKED the Gam Guard. FC is considered a Dark Side move. But Anakin (Clone Wars on Poggle), and now his Son have both used it. When facing eachother EP and GMY both used Force Lightning in ROTS. Again FL is considered a Dark Side move. I don't think Yoda studied the Dark Side, in as much as he was aware of a wide variety of techniques and styles. Which brings us back to no light or dark, just intent. One thing I paid close attention to, was the death scene of GMY. "...the last OF the jedi, you will be", not "..the last Jedi you will be" as many have misquoted (possibly myself included). I take this to mean the last formally trained Jedi. But then, to be honest, his training was ad hoc and not exactly textbook. He didn't have the advantage of going to the formal Jedi Academy, (for that matter neither did Anakin) so, likely Reys training will be WIKI based, not doctrine. And that will make her powerful, since she will refine her skills but not be immersed in dogma.
  • Revi
    573 posts Member
    Shmi Skywalker was a protandrous hermaphrodite and reproduced with herself creating the poodoo bantha fodder little wrench jockey that was podracer annie.
  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    Jedi/Sith are titles bestowed, I think we are headed to the reality of "There is no Light Side, there is no Dark Side, there is only the Force and what we do with it". Similar themes are used in many stories of "magic". Furthermore it follows with Lukes statement "it's time for the Jedi to end", that this revelation may finally be accepted, and explored. Bruce Lee said all styles have an inherent weakness. "Form without Form". Why not the Force as well? And this would not be the emmergence of "Greys", since that denotes the existance but non adherence to Light/Dark disciplines. It would be the rise or birth of Force Sensitives, as a group. Which would fullfill the prophecy of Anakin bringing balance (in a long and drawn out way) to the force. If all are one, balance is achieved.

    Totally agree with you on that one - but I think grey is definitely in existence (Light/Dark) as Rey says she sees light and dark and there have clearly been force users that study light (jedi) and dark (sith) - but you are totally right - whatever we end up with it being called, grey or the one in the middle - the bendu, it totally falls in line with what you are saying.

    Indeed this would be the fulfillment of Anakin's chosen one prophecy of bringing balance to the force. I believe that the prophecy lives on in luke, as luke's existence is based on the chosen one's actions in life (being Anakin's son). Although Anakin destroyed the jedi and ultimately the sith, luke remains as a jedi - the last jedi. He now stating it is time for the jedi to end and bringing balance in the force with use of light and dark - the prophecy is fulfilled.

    I really hope Disney & Lucasfilm don't mess this up - they can do fantastic things with all of this, but look how many other cool movies got screwed up and ended in shame:

    Alien Resurrection
    AVP Requiem
    Predators
    Bat v. Superman
    Terminator Salvation & Genesys
    last but not least....Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull!!!!

    All fantastic original movies that got destroyed, because some **** producer or director in a boardroom got crazy.

    Indeed, I am watching ROTJ as I type this, earlier Luke went to Jabbas to free Han and Leia. As he entered he force persaded Jabbas go between, and FORCE CHOKED the Gam Guard. FC is considered a Dark Side move. But Anakin (Clone Wars on Poggle), and now his Son have both used it. When facing eachother EP and GMY both used Force Lightning in ROTS. Again FL is considered a Dark Side move. I don't think Yoda studied the Dark Side, in as much as he was aware of a wide variety of techniques and styles. Which brings us back to no light or dark, just intent. One thing I paid close attention to, was the death scene of GMY. "...the last OF the jedi, you will be", not "..the last Jedi you will be" as many have misquoted (possibly myself included). I take this to mean the last formally trained Jedi. But then, to be honest, his training was ad hoc and not exactly textbook. He didn't have the advantage of going to the formal Jedi Academy, (for that matter neither did Anakin) so, likely Reys training will be WIKI based, not doctrine. And that will make her powerful, since she will refine her skills but not be immersed in dogma.

    I agree with all you have said, save and except Yoda using force lightening. If you watch closely he was trying to absorb the force lightening of Palpatine, just like he did with Dooku in AOTC. But Palpatine's force lightening was too powerful and too intense to absorb so he deflected it back at Palpatine (which he also did with Dooku).

    Regardless of what wookiepedia and other star wars sources say about who uses what force power (like Mace Windu's aggressive lightsaber technique, or Plo Koon's electric judgement) - you never actually see them do any of this.

    The only jedi seen using darkside power is Anakin using force choke in TCW and Luke choking Jabba's guards. Both of them are products of the prophecy of the chosen one (Anakin himself and Luke being the son of the chosen one) - the chosen one is said to bring balance to the force (I would read that, certainly after the traier of TLJ, that balance means use of the force in its entirety - light and dark) and certainly both Anakin and Luke seem to do this.

    As Luke is stated to be the last of the jedi (as per yoda) I would say he is solely the last jedi (hence the new movie title) and that Rey is the product of the first "balanced" force user, and it is time for the jedi to end.

    To go further one could suggest Anakin cast the overwhelmingly large amount of jedi in the galaxy off balance in favour of the sith and then destroyed the sith - as per the jedi's reading of the prophecy.

    Luke (his son and last jedi) realizes the flaws of the jedi teachings and of course that of the darkside and means to bring balance with the study and teaching of the force in all its aspects - being balance within the force.

    If Rey is indeed Luke's daughter (which I hope she is for continuity and lore sake) then she is the first product of the force in balance.

    Essentially with the continuation of the prophecy of the chosen one, you can see how balance of the force was achieved - all counts of this balance stemmed from Anakin himself, due to his actions in life (having children) continues the prophecy. If he had no children, the prophecy would have died with Anakin.

    I just hope that Disney clears up some of the prophecy storyline and "balance in the force" over the remaining sequel trilogy installments. There is a lot to explore and plenty of plot holes to fill.
  • Lister from Red Dwarf, he and Anakin's mother met next to the chicken soup machine. It's part of the new new canon. Very riveting stuff. :P
  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    Lister from Red Dwarf, he and Anakin's mother met next to the chicken soup machine. It's part of the new new canon. Very riveting stuff. :P

    It could have been Kryton - which is why Smi is too embarrassed to say, she prefers to say there was no father.

    Or she could be like Cartman's mom out of south park.
  • Gank_Killer
    1817 posts Member
    Another reason Snoke can't be Sith is because the Rule of Two. Kylo isn't his Sith Apprentice, so that means there would only be 1 sith, and that's not allowed under the Rule of Two.
    If you can't tell, I'm making fun of people who cite Rule of Two in discussions, because they're dumb.
  • DatBoi
    3615 posts Member
    I think people get way too hung up on the rule of two thing. That was just a pattern that wasn't named until after six movies.
  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    edited June 2017
    DatBoi wrote: »
    I think people get way too hung up on the rule of two thing. That was just a pattern that wasn't named until after six movies.

    It was a rule an ultimate Rule followed by the sith.

    Created by Darth Bane - as explained by Yoda to the force ghost of Darth Bane in TCW (so Rule of 2 is cannon - also being described in TPM).

    Rule of 2 consists of 2 reigning Sith Lords - A Master and an Apprentice.

    Darth Sidious & Darth Maul

    Darth Sidious & Darth Tyranus

    Darth Sidious & Darth Vader

    The nature od the sith is that ensure strength down its future lineage, the Apprentice must surpass the Master and assume the title of Sith Master, by killing his master and taking on his own apprentice for the cycle to continue.

    Darth Tyranus (Dooku) did so by enlisting Ventress as his apprentice - only Sidious was well aware of Ventress and ordered Dooku to kill his apprentice before she became too powerful - she would be a threat to Sidious, as Dooku would attempt to overthrow Sidious with the aid of his apprentice - Ventress. Once Ventress was out of the picture, Dooku enlisted Savage in secret from Sidious to fulfill this purpose.

    Again (non-cannon) Vadeer did this with Starkiller. Also (in cannon) Vader attempted to do this with Luke, in regard to his offer on Bespin after he revealed he was Luke's father.

    Therefore these apprentices of the Sith Apprentice are considered sith - but NOT sith lords.

    As only 2 there are.

    In addition if rival sith rose, they would need to eliminate the existing 2 sith lords - such as when Darth Maul rose with his apprentice and brother Savage to rival and destroy Sidious and Dooku.

    Although it is possible to say that Darth Maul and Savage were rivaling sith lords to Sidious and Dooku (so 4 sith lords in total at this time) I don't think that flies.

    In order to be come the 2 ruling sith lords - the existing 2 sith sith lords would need to be eliminated.

    Darth Maul was replaced by Darth Tyranus/Dooku and was therefore no longer a reigning Sith Lord. Maul only established himself as Master and Savage as Apprentice - should they be successful in defeating Sidious and Dooku, they would know their place with oneanother. This is another reason why Savage never took on the Darth title, as he truly never became a sith lord - only if Maul and Savage defeated Sidious and Tyranus would they truly be considered sith lords and the new reigning 2.

    However, that does not prevent them being identified as sith - which they did throughout their campaign in TCW, like Ventress to Dooku, they were sith, but not sith lords.

    All very confusing and many people on these forums constantly get it wrong - which is why Ventress deserves a sith tag in this game.

    Additionally, as prophesied by the jedi - Anakin did eventualy destroy the Sith by redeeming himself and killing his master.

    Therefore the rule of 2 and the Sith were destroyed. There are no more sith.

    If it turns out Snoke was/is Darth Plagueis - he left the Sith Order and relinquished his Sith Lord/Sith Master title to Darth Sidious. So this does not affect the Rule of 2 or the fact that the sith are no more.
  • DatBoi
    3615 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    DatBoi wrote: »
    I think people get way too hung up on the rule of two thing. That was just a pattern that wasn't named until after six movies.

    It was a rule an ultimate Rule followed by the sith.

    Created by Darth Bane - as explained by Yoda to the force ghost of Darth Bane in TCW (so Rule of 2 is cannon - also being described in TPM).

    Rule of 2 consists of 2 reigning Sith Lords - A Master and an Apprentice.

    Darth Sidious & Darth Maul

    Darth Sidious & Darth Tyranus

    Darth Sidious & Darth Vader

    The nature od the sith is that ensure strength down its future lineage, the Apprentice must surpass the Master and assume the title of Sith Master, by killing his master and taking on his own apprentice for the cycle to continue.

    Darth Tyranus (Dooku) did so by enlisting Ventress as his apprentice - only Sidious was well aware of Ventress and ordered Dooku to kill his apprentice before she became too powerful - she would be a threat to Sidious, as Dooku would attempt to overthrow Sidious with the aid of his apprentice - Ventress. Once Ventress was out of the picture, Dooku enlisted Savage in secret from Sidious to fulfill this purpose.

    Again (non-cannon) Vadeer did this with Starkiller. Also (in cannon) Vader attempted to do this with Luke, in regard to his offer on Bespin after he revealed he was Luke's father.

    Therefore these apprentices of the Sith Apprentice are considered sith - but NOT sith lords.

    As only 2 there are.
    I know its canon, but my point is that the rule was only "made" because the six movies had a pattern of having two main bad guys at a time so lucasfilm decided "hey, lets retroactively make this a thing" without thinking it through.

    It seems like the sith break that rule more than they follow it. If plagueis was indeed palpatine's master and was as many believe still alive during TPM, then palpatine broke the rule by training maul. Dooku trained ventress even though palpatine was still alive. Maul and savage did their whole thing while dooku and palpatine were alive. Vader trained the force unleashed guy even though palpatine was alive.

    The "rule of two" seems more like a suggestion made by individual sith to consolidate their power and reduce opposition, not some binding law that restricts future movie screenplays from allowing the possibility of additional sith.

    Im not claiming to know whether snoke is or isn't a sith (and i dont really care), Im just suggesting that theres likely more on the table than many think. If he wants to call himself a sith, who's going to stop him? Its not like there's a way to enforce the rule.
  • NovaPrime
    119 posts Member
    edited June 2017
    Ventress is only ever referred to as an Assassin in TCW. Both by Sidious and Dooku. Dooku tells her she has to prove herself to become his apprentice, but she fails multiple times.
  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    DatBoi wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    DatBoi wrote: »
    I think people get way too hung up on the rule of two thing. That was just a pattern that wasn't named until after six movies.

    It was a rule an ultimate Rule followed by the sith.

    Created by Darth Bane - as explained by Yoda to the force ghost of Darth Bane in TCW (so Rule of 2 is cannon - also being described in TPM).

    Rule of 2 consists of 2 reigning Sith Lords - A Master and an Apprentice.

    Darth Sidious & Darth Maul

    Darth Sidious & Darth Tyranus

    Darth Sidious & Darth Vader

    The nature od the sith is that ensure strength down its future lineage, the Apprentice must surpass the Master and assume the title of Sith Master, by killing his master and taking on his own apprentice for the cycle to continue.

    Darth Tyranus (Dooku) did so by enlisting Ventress as his apprentice - only Sidious was well aware of Ventress and ordered Dooku to kill his apprentice before she became too powerful - she would be a threat to Sidious, as Dooku would attempt to overthrow Sidious with the aid of his apprentice - Ventress. Once Ventress was out of the picture, Dooku enlisted Savage in secret from Sidious to fulfill this purpose.

    Again (non-cannon) Vadeer did this with Starkiller. Also (in cannon) Vader attempted to do this with Luke, in regard to his offer on Bespin after he revealed he was Luke's father.

    Therefore these apprentices of the Sith Apprentice are considered sith - but NOT sith lords.

    As only 2 there are.
    I know its canon, but my point is that the rule was only "made" because the six movies had a pattern of having two main bad guys at a time so lucasfilm decided "hey, lets retroactively make this a thing" without thinking it through.

    It seems like the sith break that rule more than they follow it. If plagueis was indeed palpatine's master and was as many believe still alive during TPM, then palpatine broke the rule by training maul. Dooku trained ventress even though palpatine was still alive. Maul and savage did their whole thing while dooku and palpatine were alive. Vader trained the force unleashed guy even though palpatine was alive.

    The "rule of two" seems more like a suggestion made by individual sith to consolidate their power and reduce opposition, not some binding law that restricts future movie screenplays from allowing the possibility of additional sith.

    Im not claiming to know whether snoke is or isn't a sith (and i dont really care), Im just suggesting that theres likely more on the table than many think. If he wants to call himself a sith, who's going to stop him? Its not like there's a way to enforce the rule.

    All rules can be broken - but I think I explained about the ventress & savage apprentice issue as well as the maul & savage rivalry in my post above - so technically I would not say that breaks the rule of 2.

    As for Plagueis being alive at the time of TPM - fans only believe this to be true, there is no proof of this. If he was alive this would certainly break the rule of 2, as during TPM Sidious introduces Maul to the trade federation as sith, his apprentice and has the Darth title - indicating he is a Sith Lord, Apprentice and therefore Sidious was the Sith Lord Master = 2 sith lords.

    Personally I believe Plagueis "died/disappeared" prior to the events of TPM and the plot of that movie is Sidious getting down to business in regard to his grand plans for the galaxy with his master now being out of the way.
  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    NovaPrime wrote: »
    Ventress is only ever referred to as an Assassin in TCW. Both by Sidious and Dooku. Dooku tells her she has to prove herself to become his apprentice, but she fails multiple times.

    She was already apprenticed to him as was savage when he replaced ventress.

    What Dooku means is his Sith Apprentice - when he finally challenges and removes Sidious from his position as Master. Dooku would then be Sith Master and Ventress Sith Apprentice.

    The Rule of Two only applies to Sith Lords - not aspiring sith lords re: ventress and savage.

    Maul on the other hand is an anomaly. He technically is a sith lord no more come the events of TCW, as he was replaced. He maintains his title as Darth, but shouldn't have. As come the events of Rebels, he is now known simply as Maul.

    I do not recall whether in TCW he continues to name himself Darth Maul or if that was a name used by others for him - I'd have to watch those episodes again to confirm that.

    If he does continue to name himself Darth in TCW, this is likely a broken Rule of 2 as he attempts to rival and destroy Sidious and Dooku, taking over as the new reigning Sith Lords with his brother - Savage would have received his Darth title at this point, but Sidious puts an end to that little scheme.
  • NovaPrime
    119 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    NovaPrime wrote: »
    Ventress is only ever referred to as an Assassin in TCW. Both by Sidious and Dooku. Dooku tells her she has to prove herself to become his apprentice, but she fails multiple times.

    She was already apprenticed to him as was savage when he replaced ventress.

    .

    Show me where Dooku calls her his apprentice. He never does in the entire series. She is only ever referred to as an Assassin. Even her Wookiepedia page refers to her as "An Assassin of the Sith." You are assuming she was his apprentice when it was never ever revealed that she was.
  • Rumpelstilzchen
    1754 posts Member
    edited June 2017
    From what I have read online, Sith utilized Nightsisters because of their strong connection to the darkside on Dath. But only when the needs of the Sith, benefited the Night Sisters as well. It was a symbiotic relationship of sorts. To my knowledge Ventress had no wish to be a "Sith". She just wanted training?
  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    edited June 2017
    NovaPrime wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    NovaPrime wrote: »
    Ventress is only ever referred to as an Assassin in TCW. Both by Sidious and Dooku. Dooku tells her she has to prove herself to become his apprentice, but she fails multiple times.

    She was already apprenticed to him as was savage when he replaced ventress.

    .

    Show me where Dooku calls her his apprentice. He never does in the entire series. She is only ever referred to as an Assassin. Even her Wookiepedia page refers to her as "An Assassin of the Sith." You are assuming she was his apprentice when it was never ever revealed that she was.

    Sorry to say, but you are once again wrong.

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Asajj_Ventress

    Wookiepedia quote: "She was eventually discovered by the Sith Lord Count Dooku and fell under his guidance and tutelage as an apprentice and aspiring Dark Lord." - she was an aspiring sith lord and apprentice to Dooku.

    TCW episode 1 "Ambush" - Dooku speaks to the Toydarian King and says this in reference to Ventress:

    "Indeed But when you decide to join us, my apprentice [Ventress] will contact me".

    To be honest I only looked at the script of the first episode - so I am sure there are more occasions where Dooku calls or refers to Ventress as his apprentice throughout the series.

    Summary:

    Ventress is Dooku's SIth Apprentice and aspiring sith lord. End of story.
  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    From what I have read online, Sith utilized Nightsisters because of their strong connection to the darkside on Dath. But only when the needs of the Sith, benefited the Night Sisters as well. It was a symbiotic relationship of sorts. To my knowledge Ventress had no wish to be a "Sith". She just wanted training?

    No, Venterss was once under Jedi training, and her master failed her. She turned tot he Dark Side, claiming to be sith When Dooku found her and showed her the true meaning and power of being a sith lord. He did not kill her and saw potential in her as his own apprentice and assassin. He took it upon himself to train her as such. Sidious was in full awareness of this having been introduced to Ventress via hologram.

    This is why Dooku set out to obtain Ventress' successor (Savage) in secret from Sidious, as Sidious had ordered Ventress' death, fearing her power combined with Dooku would be a strong enough threat to him as Sith Master.
  • Anikan's mother was lose, and they probably didn't want to make her a hoe, so they said she was the carrier of the force child. Personally, if she was the personal "assistant" to Palp, that have made it a very interesting trilogue between Palp, Vader and Luke.

    "Luke, I'm your Father"......."Nooooooooooooooo!"
    "Wait Lord Vader....","Yes my lord"......."I'm YOUR father!!!!!","oh Snaps!!!!!!!!!"
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