Every major faction has a "Chaze."
Yes. Chaze has lots of utility between them. But right now every major faction has a legit support base for their main attackers and leader, with tons of arena viable combos.
Empire:
They have Thrawn/Shoretrooper combo. Also Deathtrooper. If you aren't going against double taunts DT's dispel isn't as needed, but he does so many amazing things he is situationally a must have for Empire. Here we have an AoE dispeller, the best single target dispel (unavoidable+devastating irresistible debuff) in the game (fracture) , deathmark (another insane debuff), AoE cooldown increase that is irresistible in certain situations, a daze/stun double tap, irresistible debuffs, a pretaunt that heals, gives crit immunity, and TM boosts besides the TM from Thrawn.
2-3 of these toons mixed in with several combinations of Empire leaders are arena viable for #1. Krennic, Zader, Thrawn, and Tarkin are all capable arena leaders, each adding powerful and unique mechanics. And don't forget EP, or Veers+Troopers are very fun in many parts of the game too. Every single Empire toon is usable somewhere.
Sith:
They have the Assassin/Trooper combo, and also Savage. Here we have a VERY tanky autotaunt character with multiple triggers for his autotaunt, and a counter attack, one of the fastest team TM boosters in the game who can hide/self buff, and kill some characters from full health/protection by bypassing protection, and one of the deadliest self healing/self buffing/self cleaning/team cleansers who cleanses passively (can't be ability blocked), with an unavoidable instakill in the right situations. This is a VERY deadly group compared to some of the other support bases, however they have a little less utility compared to some of the others. There is an obvious reason for that.
The Sith leaders/DPS they support are very powerful, and have tons of utility already. Nihilus has the irresistible cooldown increase, and dispel on basic. Palpatine and Dooku have shock, and stun. And they have crazy powerful leaders. EP and Zader of course pull double duty as Empire, so we'll focus on the other two. Nihilus lead gives huge healing, negates the crit bonuses that make Zarriss/Kenobi or Rex led so good. He gives a massive offense bump to Sith. Dooku and Savage become horrors under his lead. And Zaul is so powerful he forced the meta to where it is now. Mods being equal, it is impossible to outspeed a Zaul lead SA giving his whole team first turn advantage. He's still the #2 leader among top teams. The novel where his leader ability is make just about any Sith combo under his lead a viable #1 contender. Every single Sith character is arena viable in some combination. Some get drastically stronger depending on which leader you choose. They have some amazing raid teams. And thanks to EP/Zader there are some fun Empire/Sith crossover options.
Jedi+R2:
These guys have Kenobi/Zarriss/R2: Hopefully I don't have to explain all the utility these two have to support a team, and keep them alive to do their thing. Plenty of buffs, heals, and an autotaunt there. No dispeller, but a couple of your best Jedi options (QGJ, Ezra) have dispels, and Anakin has a buff block. There is only one viable Jedi arena lead, and that's zQGJ (Kenobi can lead some mixed meta squads). But at least they have one, and it's quite powerful. The foresight to start saves your back side against some of the super fast arena teams.
Most likely your zQGJ team will run Kenobi with R2, or Kenobi with Yoda, but Kenobi/Zarriss is viable support for a number of teams. And you have a few choices for 4th and 5th. Aayla, Ani, and Ezra are best. So there is some flexibility here with different comps. Raids additionally make IGD very good. But there are several really terrible Jedi that aren't usable for anything. And your choice of leaders is very limited. However they are an arena viable faction that does surprisingly well defensively with good mods. The will be getting a faction pass, so hopefully that will expand their functionality, and add some additional viable leads. Mace is at the top of my list.
Rebels:
We all know the Chaze combo. And yeah they do a lot. But after reading the above I don't think they're stronger/have more utility than the taunt/cleanse/dispel support base toons for the other major factions. Especially since the toons they support in their own faction often have less utility. They are mostly low health/high damage attackers. Mainly Wedge and Jyn are the only viable leaders. No dispels. No heals outside of Ackbar (which is situational). No TM boosts (outside of STHan who you would probably pull if you have Baze to tank). They need Chaze to fill a lot of gaps. They are good no doubt, but they have weaknesses. I remember running Boba lead/Lando/Ani against the Rex lead, Chaze, Wiggs teams when that first became a thing. Two Lando AoEs, and one from Ani after they killed my tank, and everyone on their team but Baze went from full health/protection to dead.
And we still didn't touch on Resistance and FO. Both of them are complete factions that have one awesome lead, with a taunt, a dispeller, a cleanse, TM boosts, big damage, buffs, and debuffs. Both can have varying degrees of success in arena, and raids (Resistance clearly has the edge).
RIght now I think we're as balanced as we've ever been. People don't need to run Chaze to win, or hold on defense. I still don't. Anybody who thinks we're getting more unbalanced wasn't here when 95% of leader were Dooku. Rex, Boba, Kenobi, zQGJ, Zader, Thrawn, Wedge, zFinn, Jyn, Zaul, Nihilus and Tarkin are all viable to some extent as leads of a variety of teams that don't all need Chaze. Some work better than others against different teams. All can be beaten. All have weaknesses.
To add to this balance we are still waiting on the Jedi faction pass, a Bounty Hunter faction pass, a Seperatist faction pass, and all of the new Resistance/FO toons we'll surely get this winter. I like where we're at, and where we're headed. Feel free to disagree.
Empire:
They have Thrawn/Shoretrooper combo. Also Deathtrooper. If you aren't going against double taunts DT's dispel isn't as needed, but he does so many amazing things he is situationally a must have for Empire. Here we have an AoE dispeller, the best single target dispel (unavoidable+devastating irresistible debuff) in the game (fracture) , deathmark (another insane debuff), AoE cooldown increase that is irresistible in certain situations, a daze/stun double tap, irresistible debuffs, a pretaunt that heals, gives crit immunity, and TM boosts besides the TM from Thrawn.
2-3 of these toons mixed in with several combinations of Empire leaders are arena viable for #1. Krennic, Zader, Thrawn, and Tarkin are all capable arena leaders, each adding powerful and unique mechanics. And don't forget EP, or Veers+Troopers are very fun in many parts of the game too. Every single Empire toon is usable somewhere.
Sith:
They have the Assassin/Trooper combo, and also Savage. Here we have a VERY tanky autotaunt character with multiple triggers for his autotaunt, and a counter attack, one of the fastest team TM boosters in the game who can hide/self buff, and kill some characters from full health/protection by bypassing protection, and one of the deadliest self healing/self buffing/self cleaning/team cleansers who cleanses passively (can't be ability blocked), with an unavoidable instakill in the right situations. This is a VERY deadly group compared to some of the other support bases, however they have a little less utility compared to some of the others. There is an obvious reason for that.
The Sith leaders/DPS they support are very powerful, and have tons of utility already. Nihilus has the irresistible cooldown increase, and dispel on basic. Palpatine and Dooku have shock, and stun. And they have crazy powerful leaders. EP and Zader of course pull double duty as Empire, so we'll focus on the other two. Nihilus lead gives huge healing, negates the crit bonuses that make Zarriss/Kenobi or Rex led so good. He gives a massive offense bump to Sith. Dooku and Savage become horrors under his lead. And Zaul is so powerful he forced the meta to where it is now. Mods being equal, it is impossible to outspeed a Zaul lead SA giving his whole team first turn advantage. He's still the #2 leader among top teams. The novel where his leader ability is make just about any Sith combo under his lead a viable #1 contender. Every single Sith character is arena viable in some combination. Some get drastically stronger depending on which leader you choose. They have some amazing raid teams. And thanks to EP/Zader there are some fun Empire/Sith crossover options.
Jedi+R2:
These guys have Kenobi/Zarriss/R2: Hopefully I don't have to explain all the utility these two have to support a team, and keep them alive to do their thing. Plenty of buffs, heals, and an autotaunt there. No dispeller, but a couple of your best Jedi options (QGJ, Ezra) have dispels, and Anakin has a buff block. There is only one viable Jedi arena lead, and that's zQGJ (Kenobi can lead some mixed meta squads). But at least they have one, and it's quite powerful. The foresight to start saves your back side against some of the super fast arena teams.
Most likely your zQGJ team will run Kenobi with R2, or Kenobi with Yoda, but Kenobi/Zarriss is viable support for a number of teams. And you have a few choices for 4th and 5th. Aayla, Ani, and Ezra are best. So there is some flexibility here with different comps. Raids additionally make IGD very good. But there are several really terrible Jedi that aren't usable for anything. And your choice of leaders is very limited. However they are an arena viable faction that does surprisingly well defensively with good mods. The will be getting a faction pass, so hopefully that will expand their functionality, and add some additional viable leads. Mace is at the top of my list.
Rebels:
We all know the Chaze combo. And yeah they do a lot. But after reading the above I don't think they're stronger/have more utility than the taunt/cleanse/dispel support base toons for the other major factions. Especially since the toons they support in their own faction often have less utility. They are mostly low health/high damage attackers. Mainly Wedge and Jyn are the only viable leaders. No dispels. No heals outside of Ackbar (which is situational). No TM boosts (outside of STHan who you would probably pull if you have Baze to tank). They need Chaze to fill a lot of gaps. They are good no doubt, but they have weaknesses. I remember running Boba lead/Lando/Ani against the Rex lead, Chaze, Wiggs teams when that first became a thing. Two Lando AoEs, and one from Ani after they killed my tank, and everyone on their team but Baze went from full health/protection to dead.
And we still didn't touch on Resistance and FO. Both of them are complete factions that have one awesome lead, with a taunt, a dispeller, a cleanse, TM boosts, big damage, buffs, and debuffs. Both can have varying degrees of success in arena, and raids (Resistance clearly has the edge).
RIght now I think we're as balanced as we've ever been. People don't need to run Chaze to win, or hold on defense. I still don't. Anybody who thinks we're getting more unbalanced wasn't here when 95% of leader were Dooku. Rex, Boba, Kenobi, zQGJ, Zader, Thrawn, Wedge, zFinn, Jyn, Zaul, Nihilus and Tarkin are all viable to some extent as leads of a variety of teams that don't all need Chaze. Some work better than others against different teams. All can be beaten. All have weaknesses.
To add to this balance we are still waiting on the Jedi faction pass, a Bounty Hunter faction pass, a Seperatist faction pass, and all of the new Resistance/FO toons we'll surely get this winter. I like where we're at, and where we're headed. Feel free to disagree.
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C'mon, I've seen you around here a lot. You know this is fake news.
Also savage is not that good with DN lead. Zaul yes. DN no. If DS wants the important utility skills... They have to use some Ls characters... Chaze, gk, rex, etc, etc, etc... Which is unfortunate.
Some of those other 3 man combos do as much as Chaze, and 2 more toons together. Others are just ment as an either/or scenario. You would probably use Kenobi/Zarriss or Kenobi/R2. And the factions they support aready have the one thing some of the 2 man combos are missing.
I agree, but just pointing out that "hey! There are other good characters in the game!" is useless info. We know that. The point he's trying to make that EVERY faction has a Chaze is just not even close to the truth.
SA/ST is better under a Zaul lead than Chaze. Kenobi/R2 is better under a zQGJ lead than Chaze. Thrawn/Shoretrooper are better under a Zader lead than Chaze. That's my point. Everyone has them.
I think Chaze was crazy OP when it was first introduced, and they are still probably the best plug and play duo in the game, but what really makes the triple cleanse teams so strong is that they are running with all the other borderline OP toons at the same time. GK, Nihilus, R2, Rex lead, and probably Thrawn are all similarly strong units, try to build a Chaze team without several of those toons and it will flop just as badly on defence as anything else.
As I have said elsewhere, after people paid totally absurd amounts of money for Baze when he first came out they can't really afford to nerf him, or his partner in synergy. What they can do and have done, is buff other toons during faction passes, and introduce new toons that help even things out. Nihilus backfired somewhat, but I agree with the original poster that there are now quite a few possible teams that can beat Triple Cleanse on offence and hold almost as well(or perhaps only slightly worse would be a better way to put it) on defence.
So far, I feel the devs have done about as well as they could do. Thrawn seems to me to be fairly well balanced to make empire arena viable without having quite as much out of faction functionality as Nihilus. Even R2 may work well with Chaze, but only at the cost of kicking other equally strong units such as Nihilus or the Rex lead out of classic triple cleanse team.
Blinded by the Light (side).
None of those combos have anywhere near the total utility of Baze and Chirrut. They are useful and effective combos, yes, but still not near as effective as the dynamic duo. Not quite sure what point you're trying to make. Just that those combos are better under their respective factions than plugging chaze in? Even then I would mostly disagree.
SA/ST under zaul is not as good as chaze under essentially any lead.
Sith: DN
Jedi: Gk
Empire: Thrawn
Rebels: Chaze (r-2 Ahsoka)
Droids: R-2
Well, sure they do, the mere existence of these two runes with no nerf whatsoever is proving to do more harm than good in the long run.
I've seen abominal hybrid teams of every kind, and they are a key feature in all of them.
Having two insignifcant characters in the SW universe being the best toons (granted, when together) in this game is an abomination, I really hope Lucas finds out about this in the future (well, he wont, but one can hope).
Congratulations, you can pick up your "cool kid" badge at the reception. With a quality comment like yours you instandly also earned the "true fan" badge, wich will also be ready for you to pick up at the reception.
I would also like to congratulate you on "most coherent responses ever made in a thread", after all you provided solid feedback to the issues being raised in this thread. Keep it up.
haha, i'm just messing around man. These discussions are futile anyway. Hope you atleast found it somewhat funny
No other duo has Chaze utility.
No other duo has such a good mix of utility, damage and tankyness, and no other duo can do as much as Chaze can.
And more importantly, no other duo is as plug and play as them. Chaze can be added anywhere and still be effective.
That's not the case for any other duo in the game, and that's how you end up with teams like the Triple Cleanse team where you slap the best individual toons under a Rex lead and it just works for no real reason besides "This character is strong on his own"
I understand what you're trying to say, but it's just not true.
Moreover, Chaze is a very unhealthy duo for the game. They set the bar so high that it's almost impossible to come near their power level without introducing even bigger power creep.
Look at the recent releases: Gar Saxon, Phoenix, ATF., the Imperial Troopers.. All of them are rather good on paper, but the truth is that they're not as good as Chaze, and don't specifically counter them, so they can't have a room in the current meta.
Chaze pigeonhole us into some very specific strategies. You don't have a way to quickly remove buffs or block healing, you're dead.
This comes from 1 major issue in the game: Power creep. Ever since Wiggs was introduced, we have navigated between offense and defense meta. Wiggs was a huge offense powerhouse, so they made Shoretrooper to counter it. They enforced defense with General Kenobi, and soon the game was mostly about defense.
To keep things going, they tried to increase the overall offensive power by reworking Boba and introducing ZVader.
But then offense was too powerful, so they toned it down with the release of Chaze, to increase survivability.
To counter the now defense-oriented meta, they moved to Offense and made Nihilus and ATF, which was probably meant to be a strong offensive character, to pierce the now overpowered wall that is Chaze. R2 and Thrawn were also ways to reduce that whittle down those turtle formations.
But they didn't, and from that point on, the power creep was so high that it was pretty much impossible to create something more powerful. So they made some nice teams, but they can't hold in Arena (Phoenix, Troopers, for instance)
And now, we just have to suffer from that power creep, because it's an unsustainable strategy. The only real solution is nerfing some powerhouses, but somehow most of the playerbase is against nerfs. My guess is they don't realize how cornered the devs are, and that Chaze is here to stay if we don't do anything about them.
The difference is that all the other faction toons are/were reasonable to farm without paying. Chaze isnt. Hopefully they hit the shard shop eventually.
EDIT: Chaze is purely pay to win so far.
Hahaha, I know man, I've learned by now (34 here) not to get stressed over any game's forums. It's a happier life!
But yeah, I know what you mean as far as futile goes. But I mean, we gotta hope someone is listening.
This is a very good post.
ya no one has that between two characters
More pay to win than Thrawn/Shoretrooper? Even SA/ST is pretty brutal. They are top level cantina farms than new players won't get for a long time. Kenobi/Zarriss are on the easier side to get compared to some of those. All the lynchpin support toons are brutal to get.