Lmao, Jesus the amount of text just to try to disapprove an actual argument with made up facts.
Tenacity Down, Dispel are counters to Tenacity Up.
Those. Are. Facts.
No, they are not facts.
Tenacity down does NOT counter tenacity up.
First of all, if tenacity up has been applied, you cannot even land tenacity down. Tenacity down is a debuff, so tenacity up will block it from being applied. Second, even if you manage to land a tenacity down debuff before the enemy applies tenacity up, a character like Rex will cleanse tenacity down first and then apply tenacity up. So it does not even impact anything. In addition, lets say you land tenacity down, and a character like Yoda applies tenacity up (Yoda does not cleanse first like Rex), and so the enemy has both the tenacity down debuff and the tenacity up buff at the same time. It still does not help you, because the tenacity up buff TRUMPS the tenacity down debuff. So even if you manage to land tenacity down, once they put tenacity up on, tenacity down does nothing to help land debuffs.
At no point in time does tenacity down ever counter tenacity up. Tenacity down does not counter tenacity up if you land it before they apply tenacity up, and tenacity down does not help you if you try to apply it after they apply tenacity up.
The only counter for tenacity up buff is a dispel. That is pretty much it. Even buff immunity debuff is only so so, because a character like Rex will cleanse the buff immunity debuff first, and then apply the tenacity up, all in one ability.
Would every buff has a counter be solid reasoning in this discussion?
I don't know... What's the point you're trying to make with this argument? I never said Tenacity Up was unbeatable (or even particularly hard to beat as of now), I (we, @Vohbo looks like he's in the same boat) just pretend it impoverishes the game design and puts devs in a corner as far as designing new interesting characters and abilities go. It's something they will always have to keep in mind, as opposed to say, offense up or even stealth.
Let me give you an example:
Next month's new fancy first-order character (say General Hux) comes as a support character who has average damage, a minor TM gain for his own team and some nice powerful new "intoxicated" debuff that does this or that. The general perception will be "Meh! - This doesn't pass the Tenacity Up test".
Do you think Thrawn would be anywhere close to what he is if Fracture was a regular debuff?
And so my conclusion is: Less cool new kits to come, or at the cost of some awkward debuff-is-not-a-debuff cost/confusion/endless-new-bugs.
My point with this story is the following: if you need a "counter" to allow you to do your regular thing, you must compromise on your strategy. To truly have a healthy metagame, you need something that punishes Tenacity Up as much as it punishes debuff-oriented teams. So no, having a counter does explicitly NOT mean that something else is not imbalanced. Requiring a counter is in fact a very good way to tell that something IS imbalanced.
Debuffs = OP -> counter = tenacity up = OP? -> counter = dispel/tenacity down/buff immunity.
I'd argue that the counter to the counter punishes plenty since you can use debuffs again eventhough the opponent tried to counter your debuffs with his tenacity up.
Imo something that doesn't require a counter simply sucks.
Would every buff has a counter be solid reasoning in this discussion?
I don't know... What's the point you're trying to make with this argument? I never said Tenacity Up was unbeatable (or even particularly hard to beat as of now), I (we, @Vohbo looks like he's in the same boat) just pretend it impoverishes the game design and puts devs in a corner as far as designing new interesting characters and abilities go. It's something they will always have to keep in mind, as opposed to say, offense up or even stealth.
Let me give you an example:
Next month's new fancy first-order character (say General Hux) comes as a support character who has average damage, a minor TM gain for his own team and some nice powerful new "intoxicated" debuff that does this or that. The general perception will be "Meh! - This doesn't pass the Tenacity Up test".
Do you think Thrawn would be anywhere close to what he is if Fracture was a regular debuff?
And so my conclusion is: Less cool new kits to come, or at the cost of some awkward debuff-is-not-a-debuff cost/confusion/endless-new-bugs.
debuffers > tenacity up
So i'm not too worried about new characters not being viable due to tenacity up being in the game already.
Lmao, Jesus the amount of text just to try to disapprove an actual argument with made up facts.
Tenacity Down, Dispel are counters to Tenacity Up.
Those. Are. Facts.
No, they are not facts.
Tenacity down does NOT counter tenacity up.
First of all, if tenacity up has been applied, you cannot even land tenacity down. Tenacity down is a debuff, so tenacity up will block it from being applied. Second, even if you manage to land a tenacity down debuff before the enemy applies tenacity up, a character like Rex will cleanse tenacity down first and then apply tenacity up. So it does not even impact anything. In addition, lets say you land tenacity down, and a character like Yoda applies tenacity up (Yoda does not cleanse first like Rex), and so the enemy has both the tenacity down debuff and the tenacity up buff at the same time. It still does not help you, because the tenacity up buff TRUMPS the tenacity down debuff. So even if you manage to land tenacity down, once they put tenacity up on, tenacity down does nothing to help land debuffs.
At no point in time does tenacity down ever counter tenacity up. Tenacity down does not counter tenacity up if you land it before they apply tenacity up, and tenacity down does not help you if you try to apply it after they apply tenacity up.
The only counter for tenacity up buff is a dispel. That is pretty much it. Even buff immunity debuff is only so so, because a character like Rex will cleanse the buff immunity debuff first, and then apply the tenacity up, all in one ability.
Um, tenacity down can most definitely be applied through tenacity up. I use Krennic and TFP in my GW squad every. It's okay if you don't know how a debuff works, but maybe don't make such wild generalizations without checking your facts.
I don't really think tenacity up is the problem. Those that say dispel or tenacity down is a counter are absolutely right (can we get an AOE tenacity down?). I think the bigger problem is the 2 characters that causs problems with tenacity up. Rex's AOE tenacity up both cleanses AND grants tenacity up AND grants turn meter. Chirrut also cleanses or grants tenacity up and heals. Both characters are extremely useful even against a team that doesn't have debuffs.
So basically they are characters that are already elite and also have the two biggest counters to debuff teams in the same move. Yes, you can dispel away tenacity up. But you can't erase a cleanse to restore debuffs. Fighting against multiple characters with dispel and tenacity up is a losing battle for debuff teams. Unless you can outspeed them and block them. Back to the speed problem then.
B2 may be a counter to tenacity up, or buff teams in general. But the thing about him is he's otherwise useless. That's literally all he does. Run a team that doesn't rely on buffs and B2 is worthless. If Chirrut and Rex were worthless against teams that don't rely on debuffs then things would be balanced. But they are strong characters anyways. So there is no risk in using them.
Lmao, Jesus the amount of text just to try to disapprove an actual argument with made up facts.
Tenacity Down, Dispel are counters to Tenacity Up.
Those. Are. Facts.
No, they are not facts.
Tenacity down does NOT counter tenacity up.
First of all, if tenacity up has been applied, you cannot even land tenacity down. Tenacity down is a debuff, so tenacity up will block it from being applied. Second, even if you manage to land a tenacity down debuff before the enemy applies tenacity up, a character like Rex will cleanse tenacity down first and then apply tenacity up. So it does not even impact anything. In addition, lets say you land tenacity down, and a character like Yoda applies tenacity up (Yoda does not cleanse first like Rex), and so the enemy has both the tenacity down debuff and the tenacity up buff at the same time. It still does not help you, because the tenacity up buff TRUMPS the tenacity down debuff. So even if you manage to land tenacity down, once they put tenacity up on, tenacity down does nothing to help land debuffs.
At no point in time does tenacity down ever counter tenacity up. Tenacity down does not counter tenacity up if you land it before they apply tenacity up, and tenacity down does not help you if you try to apply it after they apply tenacity up.
The only counter for tenacity up buff is a dispel. That is pretty much it. Even buff immunity debuff is only so so, because a character like Rex will cleanse the buff immunity debuff first, and then apply the tenacity up, all in one ability.
Um, tenacity down can most definitely be applied through tenacity up. I use Krennic and TFP in my GW squad every. It's okay if you don't know how a debuff works, but maybe don't make such wild generalizations without checking your facts.
Tenacity down says "minimize chance to resist negative status effects"
tenacity up says "always resist negative status effects"
so when you have both of them, you have your minimum chance to resist
but your minimum happens to be 100% So TLDR- Tenacity up should trump.
If they are both applied, there is still a 100% chance to resist.
Lmao, Jesus the amount of text just to try to disapprove an actual argument with made up facts.
Tenacity Down, Dispel are counters to Tenacity Up.
Those. Are. Facts.
No, they are not facts.
Tenacity down does NOT counter tenacity up.
First of all, if tenacity up has been applied, you cannot even land tenacity down. Tenacity down is a debuff, so tenacity up will block it from being applied. Second, even if you manage to land a tenacity down debuff before the enemy applies tenacity up, a character like Rex will cleanse tenacity down first and then apply tenacity up. So it does not even impact anything. In addition, lets say you land tenacity down, and a character like Yoda applies tenacity up (Yoda does not cleanse first like Rex), and so the enemy has both the tenacity down debuff and the tenacity up buff at the same time. It still does not help you, because the tenacity up buff TRUMPS the tenacity down debuff. So even if you manage to land tenacity down, once they put tenacity up on, tenacity down does nothing to help land debuffs.
At no point in time does tenacity down ever counter tenacity up. Tenacity down does not counter tenacity up if you land it before they apply tenacity up, and tenacity down does not help you if you try to apply it after they apply tenacity up.
The only counter for tenacity up buff is a dispel. That is pretty much it. Even buff immunity debuff is only so so, because a character like Rex will cleanse the buff immunity debuff first, and then apply the tenacity up, all in one ability.
this is pretty embarrassing, lol.
I know right? I love it. One of the reasons I read this forum is to see all the hyperbole and mistaken information, but the combo is my favorite.
Lmao, Jesus the amount of text just to try to disapprove an actual argument with made up facts.
Tenacity Down, Dispel are counters to Tenacity Up.
Those. Are. Facts.
Triple cleanse is a dying meta. It runs 2 of the 3 toons that give squad tenacity up so that buff seems like a real killer atm. It will go the way of every other meta soon enuf and this argument will be moot.
Um, tenacity down can most definitely be applied through tenacity up. I use Krennic and TFP in my GW squad every. It's okay if you don't know how a debuff works, but maybe don't make such wild generalizations without checking your facts.
Tenacity down says "minimize chance to resist negative status effects"
tenacity up says "always resist negative status effects"
so when you have both of them, you have your minimum chance to resist
but your minimum happens to be 100% So TLDR- Tenacity up should trump.
If they are both applied, there is still a 100% chance to resist.
Haha, she says you have your minimum chance, normally it's 15% in this case it's 100%. Potency and tenacity can go well over 100%.
Also that's if you have both like in the case of Yoda applying ten up after ten down. When you use tenacity down on tenacity up it replaces it.
I don't think repeating this line helps you invalidate the arguments we have made, but I will continue and analyze what you just said:
"Debuffers are countered by tenacity up"
This is true, but this is not the only thing that counters debuffers. Tenacity as a passive stat should help you against it. You can dispel, but something tells me that you don't consider dispelling your team a good way to counter debuffers "because they can apply it again". Stunning and often, ability blocking counters debuffers. Taking more/extra turns counters debuffers.
As you can see, there are many things that can be done to overcome debuffs, but more importantly: many characters are dependent on debuffs to operate properly.
So we arrive at this: Tenacity Up is a complete hard counter to any and all debuffs for multiple turns or until a dispel is done. All characters that depend upon debuffs, are therefore also hard countered by Tenacity Up.
"Tenacity Up is countered by Buff immunity, dispel, tenacity down"
Even if we assume this to be valid (I don't, but I have already given my arguments for that), would that really be a good reason for the argument that Tenacity Up is good for the game ? Could the same not be achieved by providing a sufficiently high amount of Tenacity to the characters instead of immunity ? Would you feel the same about Evasion Up simply giving perma-foresight saying "you can dispel it !"
I am perfectly fine with giving Zam's TD's a +50% potency and Shock a -30 % potency if that means both characters become useful.
I have seen the same thing happen in Dungeons & Dragons, where late in the game players use items and kit combinations to become immune to everything except straight up damage, and it makes the entire game extremely boring and linear.
There CG_Kozispoon said that if both tenacity up and tenacity down are applied it tenacity up trumps. If it is the other way around, then I am wrong and tenacity down is a counter.
There CG_Kozispoon said that if both tenacity up and tenacity down are applied it tenacity up trumps. If it is the other way around, then I am wrong and tenacity down is a counter.
Yeah, I know how the formula between tenacity and potency works. It was just that because specifically the tenacity up buff makes you resist 100% of the time (not increase tenacity by 100%), I had assumed (as per the link i posted) that when tenacity down was also applied, it made it so there was the minimum chance to resist, which if its 100% (again not 100% tenacity), then the character would still resist 100% of the time, because of how the tenacity up buff works.
What I did not realize is the later buff/debuff overrides the former, making all of that irrelevant.
I don't think repeating this line helps you invalidate the arguments we have made, but I will continue and analyze what you just said:
"Debuffers are countered by tenacity up"
This is true, but this is not the only thing that counters debuffers. Tenacity as a passive stat should help you against it. You can dispel, but something tells me that you don't consider dispelling your team a good way to counter debuffers "because they can apply it again". Stunning and often, ability blocking counters debuffers. Taking more/extra turns counters debuffers.
As you can see, there are many things that can be done to overcome debuffs, but more importantly: many characters are dependent on debuffs to operate properly.
So we arrive at this: Tenacity Up is a complete hard counter to any and all debuffs for multiple turns or until a dispel is done. All characters that depend upon debuffs, are therefore also hard countered by Tenacity Up.
"Tenacity Up is countered by Buff immunity, dispel, tenacity down"
Even if we assume this to be valid (I don't, but I have already given my arguments for that), would that really be a good reason for the argument that Tenacity Up is good for the game ? Could the same not be achieved by providing a sufficiently high amount of Tenacity to the characters instead of immunity ? Would you feel the same about Evasion Up simply giving perma-foresight saying "you can dispel it !"
I am perfectly fine with giving Zam's TD's a +50% potency and Shock a -30 % potency if that means both characters become useful.
I have seen the same thing happen in Dungeons & Dragons, where late in the game players use items and kit combinations to become immune to everything except straight up damage, and it makes the entire game extremely boring and linear.
i would like to say i stopped reading after you said "Tenacity as a passive stat should help you against it", but unfortunately i didn't. Got a good chuckle out of the evasion up / perma foresight comparrison though.
Yeah, I know how the formula between tenacity and potency works. It was just that because specifically the tenacity up buff makes you resist 100% of the time (not increase tenacity by 100%), I had assumed (as per the link i posted) that when tenacity down was also applied, it made it so there was the minimum chance to resist, which if its 100% (again not 100% tenacity), then the character would still resist 100% of the time, because of how the tenacity up buff works.
What I did not realize is the later buff/debuff overrides the former, making all of that irrelevant.
Well, tenacity down nullified tenacity up if it's applied second, but tenacity up cancels tenacity down out, making the net gain 0%. In this case you will see both buff and debuff. In the case of Rex and Chirrut they cleanse first so it's just tenacity up.
i would like to say i stopped reading after you said "Tenacity as a passive stat should help you against it", but unfortunately i didn't. Got a good chuckle out of the evasion up / perma foresight comparrison though.
I see a lot of passive-aggressive statements and very little argumentation (good or bad). It's always difficult to combat dogmatism though, so I will not take it personally.
something i've noticed when discussing balance on this forum, pretty much everyone i disagree with loves to compare swgoh to card games.
Debuffs = OP -> counter = tenacity up = OP? -> counter = dispel/tenacity down/buff immunity.
I'd argue that the counter to the counter punishes plenty since you can use debuffs again eventhough the opponent tried to counter your debuffs with his tenacity up.
Imo something that doesn't require a counter simply sucks.
Indeed I sometimes compare the mechanics of swgoh to the one of Magic:The Gathering, or sometimes Chess, because they're turn-based I guess. Some compare it to an MMO, maybe from the angle of collecting & developing a roster?
I'd say it was rather:
1) Some debuffs went over the top (mass stun I guess) => counter = Tenacity Up.
In that process, every debuff that wasn't over the top and whoever relied on it went down the drain (Scoundrels, Jawas, half of the Empire, Nightsisters,...), as if those really needed to be side-nerfed.
2) Tenacity Up became the new elephant in the room => counter = mass-dispell
... which have quite likely also wiped out the "small business" buff-reliant characters which apply buffs with a cooldown (as opposed to auto)
3) As a second counter, we now see a new breed of debuffs which bypass tenacity altogether: Increase cooldown is the new Ability block; Fracture, Shred,...
4) Once those become OP, there is no longer a mechanic to counter them, unless something very specific such as "immune to Fracture".
Again, my gripe is just that there was a simple, easy mechanic to model this: potency vs. tenacity, as numbers. Tweaking numbers would have been a simple way to solve any problem with a given debuff or buff. Instead they went the way of the atomic bomb, wipe-them-all, and that decision made half of the available toons (even more ) irrelevant, and more to come, as they will be forced to make this available to more factions (staring with Ewoks this month).
And because it forces every new debuff to not be one, it's an open invite for a colony of bugs as certainly as that old sandwich rotting under the sofa is.
i would like to say i stopped reading after you said "Tenacity as a passive stat should help you against it", but unfortunately i didn't. Got a good chuckle out of the evasion up / perma foresight comparrison though.
I see a lot of passive-aggressive statements and very little argumentation (good or bad). It's always difficult to combat dogmatism though, so I will not take it personally.
you should definetely not take it personal, it's the internet.
we both think the other is wrong, didn't want to argue over arguments since that won't be constructive anyway.
As a Sith user, I find Tenacity up very frustrating, and overpowered. If Sith had a mass buff remover to counter it then I wouldn't have such an issue. As it stands though, Sith do not. B2 is an option, but then that means you have to sacrifice a slot for him, and B2 hits like a wet noodle. Plus he doesn't have a Sith tag so ignores all the leadership bonuses, although that is not as important.
There is also Ventress, but she isn't particularly useful outside of her buff removal.
Rex's tenacity up lasts for 3 whole turns, which is most of the battle. On top of that it grants everyone a significant amount of turn meter, and gives everyone on the team debuff immunity. Sith relies on debuffs and being unable to land any is a very large hindrance. The basic of Nihilis removes buffs as well, but this is only for a single target, so not good enough. What makes it even worse is many of the light side teams use him too, so it becomes a race of whose Nihilis goes first. Since Sith can't apply debuffs effectively due to tenacity up, and multiple cleanses, chaze teams with Nihilis tend to have an easier time getting Annihilate off first (drain force lowers cooldowns, plus gives light an easier time increasing cooldowns of the opponent). R2 makes matters all that much worse as well with debuffs of his own such as burn (why do lightside get the most powerful buffs, AND debuffs, when Sith do not have either?), and the cloaking. Add foresight in the mix to. It's just a perfect storm right now for chaze teams. Almost forgot that when Wedge is added as a lead the damage levels are very high.
Don't forget on top of that Chirrut grants tenacity up for everyone.
In short, Tenacity up right now is too overpowered to the point where it is broken as there are not enough effective counters. Hopefully, things will get fixed soon. Knowing how this game has gone, CG will probably ignore it, and fix the problem by continuing to counter it with abilities that can't be resisted like Fracture.
Replies
No, they are not facts.
Tenacity down does NOT counter tenacity up.
First of all, if tenacity up has been applied, you cannot even land tenacity down. Tenacity down is a debuff, so tenacity up will block it from being applied. Second, even if you manage to land a tenacity down debuff before the enemy applies tenacity up, a character like Rex will cleanse tenacity down first and then apply tenacity up. So it does not even impact anything. In addition, lets say you land tenacity down, and a character like Yoda applies tenacity up (Yoda does not cleanse first like Rex), and so the enemy has both the tenacity down debuff and the tenacity up buff at the same time. It still does not help you, because the tenacity up buff TRUMPS the tenacity down debuff. So even if you manage to land tenacity down, once they put tenacity up on, tenacity down does nothing to help land debuffs.
At no point in time does tenacity down ever counter tenacity up. Tenacity down does not counter tenacity up if you land it before they apply tenacity up, and tenacity down does not help you if you try to apply it after they apply tenacity up.
The only counter for tenacity up buff is a dispel. That is pretty much it. Even buff immunity debuff is only so so, because a character like Rex will cleanse the buff immunity debuff first, and then apply the tenacity up, all in one ability.
I don't know... What's the point you're trying to make with this argument? I never said Tenacity Up was unbeatable (or even particularly hard to beat as of now), I (we, @Vohbo looks like he's in the same boat) just pretend it impoverishes the game design and puts devs in a corner as far as designing new interesting characters and abilities go. It's something they will always have to keep in mind, as opposed to say, offense up or even stealth.
Let me give you an example:
Next month's new fancy first-order character (say General Hux) comes as a support character who has average damage, a minor TM gain for his own team and some nice powerful new "intoxicated" debuff that does this or that. The general perception will be "Meh! - This doesn't pass the Tenacity Up test".
Do you think Thrawn would be anywhere close to what he is if Fracture was a regular debuff?
And so my conclusion is: Less cool new kits to come, or at the cost of some awkward debuff-is-not-a-debuff cost/confusion/endless-new-bugs.
Odds r u kill 1 toon at a time.
DN, SunFac, Plo and Paploo strip buffs on their basic. QGJ, Ezra, Mace, Teebo, Boba and Thrawn have targeted buff removal specials.
If anything, Tenacity Up is on the short end of the stick and needs more characters that can apply it.
Debuffs = OP -> counter = tenacity up = OP? -> counter = dispel/tenacity down/buff immunity.
I'd argue that the counter to the counter punishes plenty since you can use debuffs again eventhough the opponent tried to counter your debuffs with his tenacity up.
Imo something that doesn't require a counter simply sucks.
debuffers > tenacity up
So i'm not too worried about new characters not being viable due to tenacity up being in the game already.
Um, tenacity down can most definitely be applied through tenacity up. I use Krennic and TFP in my GW squad every. It's okay if you don't know how a debuff works, but maybe don't make such wild generalizations without checking your facts.
So basically they are characters that are already elite and also have the two biggest counters to debuff teams in the same move. Yes, you can dispel away tenacity up. But you can't erase a cleanse to restore debuffs. Fighting against multiple characters with dispel and tenacity up is a losing battle for debuff teams. Unless you can outspeed them and block them. Back to the speed problem then.
B2 may be a counter to tenacity up, or buff teams in general. But the thing about him is he's otherwise useless. That's literally all he does. Run a team that doesn't rely on buffs and B2 is worthless. If Chirrut and Rex were worthless against teams that don't rely on debuffs then things would be balanced. But they are strong characters anyways. So there is no risk in using them.
this is pretty embarrassing, lol.
https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/65977/tenacity-up-vs-tenacity-down
That is a link to where a CG_Kozispoon said this:
If they are both applied, there is still a 100% chance to resist.
I know right? I love it. One of the reasons I read this forum is to see all the hyperbole and mistaken information, but the combo is my favorite.
+50% Tenacity is more sensible
Tenacity up adds +99999999999%, whats down worth?
Haha, she says you have your minimum chance, normally it's 15% in this case it's 100%. Potency and tenacity can go well over 100%.
Also that's if you have both like in the case of Yoda applying ten up after ten down. When you use tenacity down on tenacity up it replaces it.
"Debuffers are countered by tenacity up"
This is true, but this is not the only thing that counters debuffers. Tenacity as a passive stat should help you against it. You can dispel, but something tells me that you don't consider dispelling your team a good way to counter debuffers "because they can apply it again". Stunning and often, ability blocking counters debuffers. Taking more/extra turns counters debuffers.
As you can see, there are many things that can be done to overcome debuffs, but more importantly: many characters are dependent on debuffs to operate properly.
So we arrive at this: Tenacity Up is a complete hard counter to any and all debuffs for multiple turns or until a dispel is done. All characters that depend upon debuffs, are therefore also hard countered by Tenacity Up.
"Tenacity Up is countered by Buff immunity, dispel, tenacity down"
Even if we assume this to be valid (I don't, but I have already given my arguments for that), would that really be a good reason for the argument that Tenacity Up is good for the game ? Could the same not be achieved by providing a sufficiently high amount of Tenacity to the characters instead of immunity ? Would you feel the same about Evasion Up simply giving perma-foresight saying "you can dispel it !"
I am perfectly fine with giving Zam's TD's a +50% potency and Shock a -30 % potency if that means both characters become useful.
I have seen the same thing happen in Dungeons & Dragons, where late in the game players use items and kit combinations to become immune to everything except straight up damage, and it makes the entire game extremely boring and linear.
If I am wrong, I am wrong, and I apologize. I saw the post I linked ( https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/65977/tenacity-up-vs-tenacity-down ) quite awhile ago, and have always assumed it to be true.
There CG_Kozispoon said that if both tenacity up and tenacity down are applied it tenacity up trumps. If it is the other way around, then I am wrong and tenacity down is a counter.
Again, she's referring to tenacity up being used AFTER you have tenacity down. If you apply tenacity down second it replaces tenacity up.
Here's a link from around when the originally changes it:
https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/69402/tenacity-down-will-now-nullify-tenacity-up
https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/comment/581984/#Comment_581984
Ahh, fair enough. Thank you.
No worries. I've been wrong about things too, just trying to spread the correct information.
Yeah, I know how the formula between tenacity and potency works. It was just that because specifically the tenacity up buff makes you resist 100% of the time (not increase tenacity by 100%), I had assumed (as per the link i posted) that when tenacity down was also applied, it made it so there was the minimum chance to resist, which if its 100% (again not 100% tenacity), then the character would still resist 100% of the time, because of how the tenacity up buff works.
What I did not realize is the later buff/debuff overrides the former, making all of that irrelevant.
i would like to say i stopped reading after you said "Tenacity as a passive stat should help you against it", but unfortunately i didn't. Got a good chuckle out of the evasion up / perma foresight comparrison though.
Well, tenacity down nullified tenacity up if it's applied second, but tenacity up cancels tenacity down out, making the net gain 0%. In this case you will see both buff and debuff. In the case of Rex and Chirrut they cleanse first so it's just tenacity up.
I see a lot of passive-aggressive statements and very little argumentation (good or bad). It's always difficult to combat dogmatism though, so I will not take it personally.
Indeed I sometimes compare the mechanics of swgoh to the one of Magic:The Gathering, or sometimes Chess, because they're turn-based I guess. Some compare it to an MMO, maybe from the angle of collecting & developing a roster?
I'd say it was rather:
1) Some debuffs went over the top (mass stun I guess) => counter = Tenacity Up.
In that process, every debuff that wasn't over the top and whoever relied on it went down the drain (Scoundrels, Jawas, half of the Empire, Nightsisters,...), as if those really needed to be side-nerfed.
2) Tenacity Up became the new elephant in the room => counter = mass-dispell
... which have quite likely also wiped out the "small business" buff-reliant characters which apply buffs with a cooldown (as opposed to auto)
3) As a second counter, we now see a new breed of debuffs which bypass tenacity altogether: Increase cooldown is the new Ability block; Fracture, Shred,...
4) Once those become OP, there is no longer a mechanic to counter them, unless something very specific such as "immune to Fracture".
Again, my gripe is just that there was a simple, easy mechanic to model this: potency vs. tenacity, as numbers. Tweaking numbers would have been a simple way to solve any problem with a given debuff or buff. Instead they went the way of the atomic bomb, wipe-them-all, and that decision made half of the available toons (even more ) irrelevant, and more to come, as they will be forced to make this available to more factions (staring with Ewoks this month).
And because it forces every new debuff to not be one, it's an open invite for a colony of bugs as certainly as that old sandwich rotting under the sofa is.
Imagine for a second that defense up was +999999. Not OP since there's a counter (Jawa Scavenger, Lobot AND Mob Enforcer!) right? Chewbacca FTW!
you should definetely not take it personal, it's the internet.
we both think the other is wrong, didn't want to argue over arguments since that won't be constructive anyway.
There is also Ventress, but she isn't particularly useful outside of her buff removal.
Rex's tenacity up lasts for 3 whole turns, which is most of the battle. On top of that it grants everyone a significant amount of turn meter, and gives everyone on the team debuff immunity. Sith relies on debuffs and being unable to land any is a very large hindrance. The basic of Nihilis removes buffs as well, but this is only for a single target, so not good enough. What makes it even worse is many of the light side teams use him too, so it becomes a race of whose Nihilis goes first. Since Sith can't apply debuffs effectively due to tenacity up, and multiple cleanses, chaze teams with Nihilis tend to have an easier time getting Annihilate off first (drain force lowers cooldowns, plus gives light an easier time increasing cooldowns of the opponent). R2 makes matters all that much worse as well with debuffs of his own such as burn (why do lightside get the most powerful buffs, AND debuffs, when Sith do not have either?), and the cloaking. Add foresight in the mix to. It's just a perfect storm right now for chaze teams. Almost forgot that when Wedge is added as a lead the damage levels are very high.
Don't forget on top of that Chirrut grants tenacity up for everyone.
In short, Tenacity up right now is too overpowered to the point where it is broken as there are not enough effective counters. Hopefully, things will get fixed soon. Knowing how this game has gone, CG will probably ignore it, and fix the problem by continuing to counter it with abilities that can't be resisted like Fracture.