Don't Hate Me for this Opinion

Prev1345
Thor_Odinson1
1995 posts Member
edited October 2017
I realized something about The Force Awakens.

If it wasn't Star Wars, I wouldn't have liked it.


When I think about it, it's a beat for beat repackaging of A New Hope except that this time the main character is a Mary Sue.

AND it doesn't even tell a complete story. It just cuts off at the end. If this were just a regular movie, we would be ****. But it's Star Wars. So we like it anyway.

Thing is, Disney knows we're all gonna see the next one! You shouldn't leave almost all of your major plot lines unsolved to force us to watch the next movie when you know we are gonna pay to see it anyway! It's lazy story writing!

The only reason I really liked the movie is because it's a continuation of a story and a franchise that I already know that I love.

If you showed that movie to someone who had never seen a SW film, would they think it was so great?

Sure it had some good acting and awesome effects but was the story complete and were the characters compelling?

Think:
If you hadn't seen Han shooting first and taking names in the OT, would you really care that much when he dies?
If you didn't know that Luke blew up the first DS or redeemed a hardened Sith Lord in the OT wouldn't you be confused about why everyone is looking for him?
Why should you care about Rey when she never overcomes any difficulties and instead is gifted every ability she needs out of nowhere as the plot requires it?
Do you laugh at Han saying "That's not how the force works!" If you haven't seen the other movies to know how it does work?

I'm not saying I didn't enjoy the movie, but it was well received because it was based on a proven formula (ANH) and teased you with nostalgia as it went on, oh and it's SW. I will be tremendously disappointed if The Last Jedi doesn't improve.

Which, to improve on TFA, needs these 3 things:

1. Rey needs to actually have meaningful character development instead of just dropping new force powers like Westbrook drops Triple-Doubles.

2. It needs to tell a complete story. Don't just cut the movie at a random point at the end so I have no feelings of resolution.

3. It CANNOT use nostalgia as a key selling point. That will only work once. After the first time it's just tired tropes and people will know that Disney has no interest in original storytelling but only in pumping out sequels for the money.

Replies

  • DatBoi
    3615 posts Member
    Interesting, i thought the same about Rogue One. Even though TFA was a soft reboot of the franchise, my favorite parts of the movie weren’t rehashed things i was already familiar with (unlike rogue one). My favorite parts of TFA were the new characters (yes, all), their snappy, characteristic dialogue, and despite it not being particularly original, i liked the plot.

    I mean, was I the only one who f***ing loved that scene between poe and finn in the TIE fighter? In the span of just a few minutes, we learn about their characters, their personalities, what their goals are, and how they react to dangerous situations, all during a great, engaging action scene. Maybe I’m wrong, but I didnt love that scene just because its star wars, i loved it because its a great scene in its own right.

    Consider Rogue One on the other hand. Yes, it probably has the best executed action scenes in the franchise from a technical standpoint, but when I ask people what their favorite scenes are, they usually talk about Darth Vader, the dogfight at the end (which has 0 important characters involved, so who cares), or everything at the end that leads into ANH.

    If anything, TFA would have worked better if it wasn’t star wars at all. Most of the problems people have with it seem to come from how it fits (or doesn’t fit) in the Star Wars universe.
  • Apply the same parameters to ESB, arguably the strongest film of the series, and tell me your opinion of that movie as a stand alone film.

    Lucas set out to make a saga, not a series of independent films that are linked with minor Easter eggs. TFA was a reworking or ANH, but the whole genre of Science Fiction is essentially built on a singular set of metaphors being recycled and updated to make them compelling in a new and different way. How is the story of annakin-Vader-Anakin much different, metaphorically speaking, than the biblical stories of fall and redemption?

    The only reason ANH ends with the destruction of the Death Star, closing the story in a sense, is because Lucas wasn’t sure he would get funding for the rest of the saga, not because he wanted a closed story.
  • weldon08 wrote: »
    Apply the same parameters to ESB, arguably the strongest film of the series, and tell me your opinion of that movie as a stand alone film.

    Lucas set out to make a saga, not a series of independent films that are linked with minor Easter eggs. TFA was a reworking or ANH, but the whole genre of Science Fiction is essentially built on a singular set of metaphors being recycled and updated to make them compelling in a new and different way. How is the story of annakin-Vader-Anakin much different, metaphorically speaking, than the biblical stories of fall and redemption?

    The only reason ANH ends with the destruction of the Death Star, closing the story in a sense, is because Lucas wasn’t sure he would get funding for the rest of the saga, not because he wanted a closed story.

    +1
    The Academy of the Fallen
  • 2. It needs to tell a complete story. Don't just cut the movie at a random point at the end so I have no feelings of resolution.

    Well ... Fellowship of the Ring did not tell a complete story, but it was excellent.
  • My wife's first SW film was The Force Awakens and she loved it. Drew her into SW. Now she's a nerd playing this game along with me, lol.
  • DatBoi
    3615 posts Member
    Teague wrote: »
    My wife's first SW film was The Force Awakens and she loved it. Drew her into SW. Now she's a nerd playing this game along with me, lol.

    Well there you go. For all of its faults, TFA resonantes with fans and non-fans alike
  • I don't see the problem with utilizing nostalgia in films; if it makes people emotional or jovial then it doesn't matter if it is original. The best part of Rogue One was the Vader scene, and the best part of TFA was the return of past characters, and even though neither is new or original it held resonance with me and I enjoyed them because of it.
  • Teague wrote: »
    My wife's first SW film was The Force Awakens and she loved it. Drew her into SW. Now she's a nerd playing this game along with me, lol.

    When I introduce my significant other to The Star Wars movies I will also introduce her into this game. Before we see the last Jedi. We’re bingeing all the other StarWars movies!!
  • 2. It needs to tell a complete story. Don't just cut the movie at a random point at the end so I have no feelings of resolution.

    Well ... Fellowship of the Ring did not tell a complete story, but it was excellent.

    Actually it does. Each book/movie in the series fully leads up to the next movie, while simultaneously relieving the tension of that chapter's sub plots. At the end of fellowship, we still have to get rid of the ring, but Frodo is safe from the sickness that ailed him as a result of being stabbed by one of the nine, and the hobbits have successfully gotten themselves to the relative safety of Rivendell. We aren't just left hanging at the end. (The first hobbit movie left us hanging too. The second one gave us at least a decent cliff hanger.)
  • I don't see the problem with utilizing nostalgia in films; if it makes people emotional or jovial then it doesn't matter if it is original. The best part of Rogue One was the Vader scene, and the best part of TFA was the return of past characters, and even though neither is new or original it held resonance with me and I enjoyed them because of it.

    I don't have a problem with the use of nostalgia, just a problem with the reliance on it.
  • DatBoi wrote: »
    Teague wrote: »
    My wife's first SW film was The Force Awakens and she loved it. Drew her into SW. Now she's a nerd playing this game along with me, lol.

    Well there you go. For all of its faults, TFA resonantes with fans and non-fans alike

    I wasn't saying there wouldn't be exceptions, but the vast majority of people today are familiar with the Star Wars story even if they haven't seen the movies.
  • DatBoi
    3615 posts Member
    I don't see the problem with utilizing nostalgia in films; if it makes people emotional or jovial then it doesn't matter if it is original. The best part of Rogue One was the Vader scene, and the best part of TFA was the return of past characters, and even though neither is new or original it held resonance with me and I enjoyed them because of it.

    I don't have a problem with the use of nostalgia, just a problem with the reliance on it.

    You weren’t engaged by any of the new characters? They carried the movie for me. I couldn’t care less about the returning cast.
  • weldon08 wrote: »
    Apply the same parameters to ESB, arguably the strongest film of the series, and tell me your opinion of that movie as a stand alone film.

    Lucas set out to make a saga, not a series of independent films that are linked with minor Easter eggs. TFA was a reworking or ANH, but the whole genre of Science Fiction is essentially built on a singular set of metaphors being recycled and updated to make them compelling in a new and different way. How is the story of annakin-Vader-Anakin much different, metaphorically speaking, than the biblical stories of fall and redemption?

    The only reason ANH ends with the destruction of the Death Star, closing the story in a sense, is because Lucas wasn’t sure he would get funding for the rest of the saga, not because he wanted a closed story.

    Applying the parameters to ESB, and we find that despite all the peril our heroes were in throughout the movie, they are all safe at the end, but looking forward to the key plots of the next movie: saving Han and how Luke will deal with Vader.

    It leaves us wanting more, but the tension has dissipated for the time being. TFA just leaves us going "WHAT WILL LUKE SAY!?"

    And the worst part about that is after waiting 40 years to hear Luke again, the first time we hear him...is in the trailer for the next film. Seriously? What a wasted opportunity!
  • DatBoi wrote: »
    I don't see the problem with utilizing nostalgia in films; if it makes people emotional or jovial then it doesn't matter if it is original. The best part of Rogue One was the Vader scene, and the best part of TFA was the return of past characters, and even though neither is new or original it held resonance with me and I enjoyed them because of it.

    I don't have a problem with the use of nostalgia, just a problem with the reliance on it.

    You weren’t engaged by any of the new characters? They carried the movie for me. I couldn’t care less about the returning cast.

    Finn was the only one that really got me interested.

    I like Poe but he wasn't used enough.

    Rey was a straight up Mary Sue. I don't care how powerful she is meant to be, she shouldn't be able to successfully use a jedi mind trick on her 3rd try without even really knowing anything about the force.

    Maz Kanata was...whatever.

    BB-8 was just them trying to make a cuter R2-D2 to sell more toys. BB-8 doesn't have the same personality that R2 always had.

    Kylo was ok, but I had to learn to like his character. He wasn't a likable villain after my first viewing of the movie. I do like where his character can be taken, but that only speaks the fact that he could be good in the series and not in just the standalone movie.

    Phasma is the last "major" new character I can think of, and she was just flat out stupid. For as much as she appeared in the marketing she had such a lame and insignificant role.
  • DatBoi wrote: »
    Interesting, i thought the same about Rogue One.

    If anything, TFA would have worked better if it wasn’t star wars at all. Most of the problems people have with it seem to come from how it fits (or doesn’t fit) in the Star Wars universe.

    It's funny to me that we are total opposites on this. I liked Rogue One because the characters were more well developed overall (except Cassian and Saw, they tried to do too much with too little time where their characters were concerned).

    The plot, even though most of us know that they succeed, was still entertaining. It was compelling!

    And even though my favorite scene was still Vader's hallway, I think that's due to the fact that Vader is one of the best villains in film history and many of us desperately wanted to see him whaling on some regular fools instead of just his duels with Kenobi and Luke. That one scene was really the only significant fan service in the movie, and I thought it was merited. The movie also didn't rely on our nostalgia. I think as a standalone movie it works far better than TFA.
  • When I think about it, it's a beat for beat repackaging of A New Hope except ...

    Actually this is the only part I strongly disagree with. My theory is that it's meant to be a compilation of all three of the OT movies.
    Proud and Belgian officer of [DTA] BIER DTA | official Lando Calrissian fanboy KappaPride
  • Thor_Odinson1
    1995 posts Member
    edited October 2017
    When I think about it, it's a beat for beat repackaging of A New Hope except ...

    Actually this is the only part I strongly disagree with. My theory is that it's meant to be a compilation of all three of the OT movies.

    Luke and Rey, both orphans from desert planets that are caught up into larger conflicts because each finds a droid carrying crucial and top secret information needed to stop an evil organization. Each is unaware of his/her true heritage, though that heritage will become vitally important in the subsequent film. Each one meets a mentor (Old Ben/Han respectively) who sacrifices himself in the final act for the greater good and to help the hero escape. Oh and each one must duel the arch-villain (Vader in the trench run, Kylo outside SK base) in the midst of their organizations last ditch effort to destroy the spherical super weapon created by an evil space Third Reich . That about cover the major plot points of ANH and TFA?

    Remind me how this isn't a beat for beat retelling? There is even a rescue from the superweapon, though this time the parallel is Leia and Rey.
  • And speaking of Rogue One, my favorite scene would be the dock/pier confrontation between Krennic and Galen Erso. Key point of the two (at that point) parallel storylines. Vader is and will always be awesome, but I don't really care about fanservice or nostalgia or whatever, sorry.
    Proud and Belgian officer of [DTA] BIER DTA | official Lando Calrissian fanboy KappaPride
  • And speaking of Rogue One, my favorite scene would be the dock/pier confrontation between Krennic and Galen Erso. Key point of the two (at that point) parallel storylines. Vader is and will always be awesome, but I don't really care about fanservice or nostalgia or whatever, sorry.

    That was a great scene^
  • When I think about it, it's a beat for beat repackaging of A New Hope except ...

    Actually this is the only part I strongly disagree with. My theory is that it's meant to be a compilation of all three of the OT movies.

    Luke and Rey, both orphans from desert planets that are caught up into larger conflicts because each finds a droid carrying crucial and top secret information needed to stop an evil organization. Each is unaware of his/her true heritage, though that heritage will become vitally important in the subsequent film. Each one meets a mentor (Old Ben/Han respectively) who sacrifices himself in the final act for the greater good and to help the hero escape. Oh and each one must duel the arch-villain (Vader in the trench run, Kylo outside SK base) in the midst of their organizations last ditch effort to destroy the spherical super weapon created by an evil space Third Reich . That about cover the major plot points of ANH and TFA?

    Remind me how this isn't a beat for beat retelling? There is even a rescue from the superweapon, though this time the parallel is Leia and Rey.

    Luke "dueling" Vader wasn't mentioned until he met Yoda. But I'm not that kind of encyclopedia guy to argue in great detail, I just remember that I felt it was more of a hommage than a rehash immediately when/after seeing TFA.
    Proud and Belgian officer of [DTA] BIER DTA | official Lando Calrissian fanboy KappaPride
  • When I think about it, it's a beat for beat repackaging of A New Hope except ...

    Actually this is the only part I strongly disagree with. My theory is that it's meant to be a compilation of all three of the OT movies.

    Luke and Rey, both orphans from desert planets that are caught up into larger conflicts because each finds a droid carrying crucial and top secret information needed to stop an evil organization. Each is unaware of his/her true heritage, though that heritage will become vitally important in the subsequent film. Each one meets a mentor (Old Ben/Han respectively) who sacrifices himself in the final act for the greater good and to help the hero escape. Oh and each one must duel the arch-villain (Vader in the trench run, Kylo outside SK base) in the midst of their organizations last ditch effort to destroy the spherical super weapon created by an evil space Third Reich . That about cover the major plot points of ANH and TFA?

    Remind me how this isn't a beat for beat retelling? There is even a rescue from the superweapon, though this time the parallel is Leia and Rey.

    Don't Forget about...
    • Unkar Plutt = Jawas
    • Teedo = Tuskan raiders
    • Maz's Castle = Cantina
    • Sabine Natal = Greedo
    • The rebel bases that the pilots fly off from (look similar)
    • A woman captured and interrogated by a dark side user
    • An escape by said woman from the cell
    • Poe Dameron = Wedge Antilles
    • A political adviser (Hux = Tarkin)
    • The destruction of a planet (or planets) using a laser weapon
    • A hero that attempts to flee the action (Han not wanting to rescue Leia and Finn wanting to flee Takodana)
    • Jakku = Tatooine
    • Escape on Millenium Falcon = Escape on Millenium Falcon
    • Rey = Luke Skywalker
    • A character that uses the force to defeat the antagonists (Luke shooting the missile and Rey pulling the lightsaber towards her)
    • An antagonist who is wounded or beaten, but not defeated
    • Han Solo = Old Ben Kenobi
    • Fleeing of Rey's Parents/ Abandonment = Luke not knowing his father
    • Important Holograms (Leia = Map to Luke)
    • The use of mind control (these are not the droids you are looking for = you will leave this cell with the door open)
  • DatBoi
    3615 posts Member
    When I think about it, it's a beat for beat repackaging of A New Hope except ...

    Actually this is the only part I strongly disagree with. My theory is that it's meant to be a compilation of all three of the OT movies.

    Luke and Rey, both orphans from desert planets that are caught up into larger conflicts because each finds a droid carrying crucial and top secret information needed to stop an evil organization. Each is unaware of his/her true heritage, though that heritage will become vitally important in the subsequent film. Each one meets a mentor (Old Ben/Han respectively) who sacrifices himself in the final act for the greater good and to help the hero escape. Oh and each one must duel the arch-villain (Vader in the trench run, Kylo outside SK base) in the midst of their organizations last ditch effort to destroy the spherical super weapon created by an evil space Third Reich . That about cover the major plot points of ANH and TFA?

    Remind me how this isn't a beat for beat retelling? There is even a rescue from the superweapon, though this time the parallel is Leia and Rey.

    Don't Forget about...
    • Unkar Plutt = Jawas
    • Teedo = Tuskan raiders
    • Maz's Castle = Cantina
    • Sabine Natal = Greedo
    • The rebel bases that the pilots fly off from (look similar)
    • A woman captured and interrogated by a dark side user
    • An escape by said woman from the cell
    • Poe Dameron = Wedge Antilles
    • A political adviser (Hux = Tarkin)
    • The destruction of a planet (or planets) using a laser weapon
    • A hero that attempts to flee the action (Han not wanting to rescue Leia and Finn wanting to flee Takodana)
    • Jakku = Tatooine
    • Escape on Millenium Falcon = Escape on Millenium Falcon
    • Rey = Luke Skywalker
    • A character that uses the force to defeat the antagonists (Luke shooting the missile and Rey pulling the lightsaber towards her)
    • An antagonist who is wounded or beaten, but not defeated
    • Han Solo = Old Ben Kenobi
    • Fleeing of Rey's Parents/ Abandonment = Luke not knowing his father
    • Important Holograms (Leia = Map to Luke)
    • The use of mind control (these are not the droids you are looking for = you will leave this cell with the door open)

    Ok, you have to admit some of those are stretches. Unkar Plutt as jawas? Poe as Wedge? Teedo (assuming thats the creature that tries to steal bb8) as tusken raiders? The antagonist is beaten? And “a character uses the force to defeat the antagonist”? This is star wars. People are going to use the force. And who is Sabine Natal?
  • DatBoi wrote: »
    When I think about it, it's a beat for beat repackaging of A New Hope except ...

    Actually this is the only part I strongly disagree with. My theory is that it's meant to be a compilation of all three of the OT movies.

    Luke and Rey, both orphans from desert planets that are caught up into larger conflicts because each finds a droid carrying crucial and top secret information needed to stop an evil organization. Each is unaware of his/her true heritage, though that heritage will become vitally important in the subsequent film. Each one meets a mentor (Old Ben/Han respectively) who sacrifices himself in the final act for the greater good and to help the hero escape. Oh and each one must duel the arch-villain (Vader in the trench run, Kylo outside SK base) in the midst of their organizations last ditch effort to destroy the spherical super weapon created by an evil space Third Reich . That about cover the major plot points of ANH and TFA?

    Remind me how this isn't a beat for beat retelling? There is even a rescue from the superweapon, though this time the parallel is Leia and Rey.

    Don't Forget about...
    • Unkar Plutt = Jawas
    • Teedo = Tuskan raiders
    • Maz's Castle = Cantina
    • Sabine Natal = Greedo
    • The rebel bases that the pilots fly off from (look similar)
    • A woman captured and interrogated by a dark side user
    • An escape by said woman from the cell
    • Poe Dameron = Wedge Antilles
    • A political adviser (Hux = Tarkin)
    • The destruction of a planet (or planets) using a laser weapon
    • A hero that attempts to flee the action (Han not wanting to rescue Leia and Finn wanting to flee Takodana)
    • Jakku = Tatooine
    • Escape on Millenium Falcon = Escape on Millenium Falcon
    • Rey = Luke Skywalker
    • A character that uses the force to defeat the antagonists (Luke shooting the missile and Rey pulling the lightsaber towards her)
    • An antagonist who is wounded or beaten, but not defeated
    • Han Solo = Old Ben Kenobi
    • Fleeing of Rey's Parents/ Abandonment = Luke not knowing his father
    • Important Holograms (Leia = Map to Luke)
    • The use of mind control (these are not the droids you are looking for = you will leave this cell with the door open)

    Ok, you have to admit some of those are stretches. Unkar Plutt as jawas? Poe as Wedge? Teedo (assuming thats the creature that tries to steal bb8) as tusken raiders? The antagonist is beaten? And “a character uses the force to defeat the antagonist”? This is star wars. People are going to use the force. And who is Sabine Natal?

    He meant Bazine Netal.

    Yeah, TFA is a soft reboot of ANH... For better or for worse
    The field of battle is like the mongoose. Slow to joviality, but thirsty for morning sunshine.
    -Sun Tzu
  • I realized something about The Force Awakens.

    If it wasn't Star Wars, I wouldn't have liked it.


    When I think about it, it's a beat for beat repackaging of A New Hope except that this time the main character is a Mary Sue.

    AND it doesn't even tell a complete story. It just cuts off at the end. If this were just a regular movie, we would be ****. But it's Star Wars. So we like it anyway.

    Thing is, Disney knows we're all gonna see the next one! You shouldn't leave almost all of your major plot lines unsolved to force us to watch the next movie when you know we are gonna pay to see it anyway! It's lazy story writing!

    The only reason I really liked the movie is because it's a continuation of a story and a franchise that I already know that I love.

    If you showed that movie to someone who had never seen a SW film, would they think it was so great?

    Sure it had some good acting and awesome effects but was the story complete and were the characters compelling?

    Think:
    If you hadn't seen Han shooting first and taking names in the OT, would you really care that much when he dies?
    If you didn't know that Luke blew up the first DS or redeemed a hardened Sith Lord in the OT wouldn't you be confused about why everyone is looking for him?
    Why should you care about Rey when she never overcomes any difficulties and instead is gifted every ability she needs out of nowhere as the plot requires it?
    Do you laugh at Han saying "That's not how the force works!" If you haven't seen the other movies to know how it does work?

    I'm not saying I didn't enjoy the movie, but it was well received because it was based on a proven formula (ANH) and teased you with nostalgia as it went on, oh and it's SW. I will be tremendously disappointed if The Last Jedi doesn't improve.

    Which, to improve on TFA, needs these 3 things:

    1. Rey needs to actually have meaningful character development instead of just dropping new force powers like Westbrook drops Triple-Doubles.

    2. It needs to tell a complete story. Don't just cut the movie at a random point at the end so I have no feelings of resolution.

    3. It CANNOT use nostalgia as a key selling point. That will only work once. After the first time it's just tired tropes and people will know that Disney has no interest in original storytelling but only in pumping out sequels for the money.

    TFA sucks, l am with you
  • DatBoi
    3615 posts Member
    DatBoi wrote: »
    When I think about it, it's a beat for beat repackaging of A New Hope except ...

    Actually this is the only part I strongly disagree with. My theory is that it's meant to be a compilation of all three of the OT movies.

    Luke and Rey, both orphans from desert planets that are caught up into larger conflicts because each finds a droid carrying crucial and top secret information needed to stop an evil organization. Each is unaware of his/her true heritage, though that heritage will become vitally important in the subsequent film. Each one meets a mentor (Old Ben/Han respectively) who sacrifices himself in the final act for the greater good and to help the hero escape. Oh and each one must duel the arch-villain (Vader in the trench run, Kylo outside SK base) in the midst of their organizations last ditch effort to destroy the spherical super weapon created by an evil space Third Reich . That about cover the major plot points of ANH and TFA?

    Remind me how this isn't a beat for beat retelling? There is even a rescue from the superweapon, though this time the parallel is Leia and Rey.

    Don't Forget about...
    • Unkar Plutt = Jawas
    • Teedo = Tuskan raiders
    • Maz's Castle = Cantina
    • Sabine Natal = Greedo
    • The rebel bases that the pilots fly off from (look similar)
    • A woman captured and interrogated by a dark side user
    • An escape by said woman from the cell
    • Poe Dameron = Wedge Antilles
    • A political adviser (Hux = Tarkin)
    • The destruction of a planet (or planets) using a laser weapon
    • A hero that attempts to flee the action (Han not wanting to rescue Leia and Finn wanting to flee Takodana)
    • Jakku = Tatooine
    • Escape on Millenium Falcon = Escape on Millenium Falcon
    • Rey = Luke Skywalker
    • A character that uses the force to defeat the antagonists (Luke shooting the missile and Rey pulling the lightsaber towards her)
    • An antagonist who is wounded or beaten, but not defeated
    • Han Solo = Old Ben Kenobi
    • Fleeing of Rey's Parents/ Abandonment = Luke not knowing his father
    • Important Holograms (Leia = Map to Luke)
    • The use of mind control (these are not the droids you are looking for = you will leave this cell with the door open)

    Ok, you have to admit some of those are stretches. Unkar Plutt as jawas? Poe as Wedge? Teedo (assuming thats the creature that tries to steal bb8) as tusken raiders? The antagonist is beaten? And “a character uses the force to defeat the antagonist”? This is star wars. People are going to use the force. And who is Sabine Natal?

    He meant Bazine Netal.

    Yeah, TFA is a soft reboot of ANH... For better or for worse

    I still dont know who or what bazine netal is
  • ElleMadara wrote: »
    I realized something about The Force Awakens.

    If it wasn't Star Wars, I wouldn't have liked it.


    When I think about it, it's a beat for beat repackaging of A New Hope except that this time the main character is a Mary Sue.

    AND it doesn't even tell a complete story. It just cuts off at the end. If this were just a regular movie, we would be ****. But it's Star Wars. So we like it anyway.

    Thing is, Disney knows we're all gonna see the next one! You shouldn't leave almost all of your major plot lines unsolved to force us to watch the next movie when you know we are gonna pay to see it anyway! It's lazy story writing!

    The only reason I really liked the movie is because it's a continuation of a story and a franchise that I already know that I love.

    If you showed that movie to someone who had never seen a SW film, would they think it was so great?

    Sure it had some good acting and awesome effects but was the story complete and were the characters compelling?

    Think:
    If you hadn't seen Han shooting first and taking names in the OT, would you really care that much when he dies?
    If you didn't know that Luke blew up the first DS or redeemed a hardened Sith Lord in the OT wouldn't you be confused about why everyone is looking for him?
    Why should you care about Rey when she never overcomes any difficulties and instead is gifted every ability she needs out of nowhere as the plot requires it?
    Do you laugh at Han saying "That's not how the force works!" If you haven't seen the other movies to know how it does work?

    I'm not saying I didn't enjoy the movie, but it was well received because it was based on a proven formula (ANH) and teased you with nostalgia as it went on, oh and it's SW. I will be tremendously disappointed if The Last Jedi doesn't improve.

    Which, to improve on TFA, needs these 3 things:

    1. Rey needs to actually have meaningful character development instead of just dropping new force powers like Westbrook drops Triple-Doubles.

    2. It needs to tell a complete story. Don't just cut the movie at a random point at the end so I have no feelings of resolution.

    3. It CANNOT use nostalgia as a key selling point. That will only work once. After the first time it's just tired tropes and people will know that Disney has no interest in original storytelling but only in pumping out sequels for the money.

    TFA sucks, l am with you

    Same bro
  • DatBoi wrote: »
    DatBoi wrote: »
    When I think about it, it's a beat for beat repackaging of A New Hope except ...

    Actually this is the only part I strongly disagree with. My theory is that it's meant to be a compilation of all three of the OT movies.

    Luke and Rey, both orphans from desert planets that are caught up into larger conflicts because each finds a droid carrying crucial and top secret information needed to stop an evil organization. Each is unaware of his/her true heritage, though that heritage will become vitally important in the subsequent film. Each one meets a mentor (Old Ben/Han respectively) who sacrifices himself in the final act for the greater good and to help the hero escape. Oh and each one must duel the arch-villain (Vader in the trench run, Kylo outside SK base) in the midst of their organizations last ditch effort to destroy the spherical super weapon created by an evil space Third Reich . That about cover the major plot points of ANH and TFA?

    Remind me how this isn't a beat for beat retelling? There is even a rescue from the superweapon, though this time the parallel is Leia and Rey.

    Don't Forget about...
    • Unkar Plutt = Jawas
    • Teedo = Tuskan raiders
    • Maz's Castle = Cantina
    • Sabine Natal = Greedo
    • The rebel bases that the pilots fly off from (look similar)
    • A woman captured and interrogated by a dark side user
    • An escape by said woman from the cell
    • Poe Dameron = Wedge Antilles
    • A political adviser (Hux = Tarkin)
    • The destruction of a planet (or planets) using a laser weapon
    • A hero that attempts to flee the action (Han not wanting to rescue Leia and Finn wanting to flee Takodana)
    • Jakku = Tatooine
    • Escape on Millenium Falcon = Escape on Millenium Falcon
    • Rey = Luke Skywalker
    • A character that uses the force to defeat the antagonists (Luke shooting the missile and Rey pulling the lightsaber towards her)
    • An antagonist who is wounded or beaten, but not defeated
    • Han Solo = Old Ben Kenobi
    • Fleeing of Rey's Parents/ Abandonment = Luke not knowing his father
    • Important Holograms (Leia = Map to Luke)
    • The use of mind control (these are not the droids you are looking for = you will leave this cell with the door open)

    Ok, you have to admit some of those are stretches. Unkar Plutt as jawas? Poe as Wedge? Teedo (assuming thats the creature that tries to steal bb8) as tusken raiders? The antagonist is beaten? And “a character uses the force to defeat the antagonist”? This is star wars. People are going to use the force. And who is Sabine Natal?

    He meant Bazine Netal.

    Yeah, TFA is a soft reboot of ANH... For better or for worse

    I still dont know who or what bazine netal is

    The weird looking chick from TFA who informed the First Order about BB-8:

    bazine-netal_7cc1f5c5.jpeg?region=406%2C0%2C1154%2C648&width=768
    The field of battle is like the mongoose. Slow to joviality, but thirsty for morning sunshine.
    -Sun Tzu
  • DatBoi
    3615 posts Member
    DatBoi wrote: »
    DatBoi wrote: »
    When I think about it, it's a beat for beat repackaging of A New Hope except ...

    Actually this is the only part I strongly disagree with. My theory is that it's meant to be a compilation of all three of the OT movies.

    Luke and Rey, both orphans from desert planets that are caught up into larger conflicts because each finds a droid carrying crucial and top secret information needed to stop an evil organization. Each is unaware of his/her true heritage, though that heritage will become vitally important in the subsequent film. Each one meets a mentor (Old Ben/Han respectively) who sacrifices himself in the final act for the greater good and to help the hero escape. Oh and each one must duel the arch-villain (Vader in the trench run, Kylo outside SK base) in the midst of their organizations last ditch effort to destroy the spherical super weapon created by an evil space Third Reich . That about cover the major plot points of ANH and TFA?

    Remind me how this isn't a beat for beat retelling? There is even a rescue from the superweapon, though this time the parallel is Leia and Rey.

    Don't Forget about...
    • Unkar Plutt = Jawas
    • Teedo = Tuskan raiders
    • Maz's Castle = Cantina
    • Sabine Natal = Greedo
    • The rebel bases that the pilots fly off from (look similar)
    • A woman captured and interrogated by a dark side user
    • An escape by said woman from the cell
    • Poe Dameron = Wedge Antilles
    • A political adviser (Hux = Tarkin)
    • The destruction of a planet (or planets) using a laser weapon
    • A hero that attempts to flee the action (Han not wanting to rescue Leia and Finn wanting to flee Takodana)
    • Jakku = Tatooine
    • Escape on Millenium Falcon = Escape on Millenium Falcon
    • Rey = Luke Skywalker
    • A character that uses the force to defeat the antagonists (Luke shooting the missile and Rey pulling the lightsaber towards her)
    • An antagonist who is wounded or beaten, but not defeated
    • Han Solo = Old Ben Kenobi
    • Fleeing of Rey's Parents/ Abandonment = Luke not knowing his father
    • Important Holograms (Leia = Map to Luke)
    • The use of mind control (these are not the droids you are looking for = you will leave this cell with the door open)

    Ok, you have to admit some of those are stretches. Unkar Plutt as jawas? Poe as Wedge? Teedo (assuming thats the creature that tries to steal bb8) as tusken raiders? The antagonist is beaten? And “a character uses the force to defeat the antagonist”? This is star wars. People are going to use the force. And who is Sabine Natal?

    He meant Bazine Netal.

    Yeah, TFA is a soft reboot of ANH... For better or for worse

    I still dont know who or what bazine netal is

    The weird looking chick from TFA who informed the First Order about BB-8:

    bazine-netal_7cc1f5c5.jpeg?region=406%2C0%2C1154%2C648&width=768

    How is she greedo? Wouldn't she be more akin to snout guy?

  • Rey was a straight up Mary Sue. I don't care how powerful she is meant to be, she shouldn't be able to successfully use a jedi mind trick on her 3rd try without even really knowing anything about the force.

    No. She's not. Of all the arguments against TFA this is the one that bothers me the most.

    Anakin - uses force precognition to pilot podracers (a thing a Jedi says humans generally can't do) before he knows the force is even a thing.

    Luke - Recieves the profound training of an old man telling him to "stretch out with [his] feelings" and proceeds to blindly block three blaster bolts and bend a full speed torpedo 90 degrees down a two meter tube, a feet that's "impossible, even for a computer"

    Starkiller - Rips the lightsaber out of Darth Vader's hand (!) when he's like 2 years old.

    Reven - Has his mind completely wiped and proceeds to relearn all his abilities and come back even stronger with minimal (if any) training.

    Solo twins (Old EU) - have a two way connection with their mother in utero... among multiple other feats before they are sent off to study with their uncle.

    Rey is not a Mary Sue. In fact the force abilities she accomplishes are straight up tame compared to some of the things other powerful force users accomplish with little to no training (the Jedi taught mind trick to younglings... which seems like a terrible idea, but that's neither here nor there). If you have a problem with the things Rey does, you don't have a problem with Rey, you have a problem with Star Wars...
  • fascizio wrote: »

    Rey was a straight up Mary Sue. I don't care how powerful she is meant to be, she shouldn't be able to successfully use a jedi mind trick on her 3rd try without even really knowing anything about the force.

    No. She's not. Of all the arguments against TFA this is the one that bothers me the most.

    Anakin - uses force precognition to pilot podracers (a thing a Jedi says humans generally can't do) before he knows the force is even a thing.

    Luke - Recieves the profound training of an old man telling him to "stretch out with [his] feelings" and proceeds to blindly block three blaster bolts and bend a full speed torpedo 90 degrees down a two meter tube, a feet that's "impossible, even for a computer"

    Starkiller - Rips the lightsaber out of Darth Vader's hand (!) when he's like 2 years old.

    Reven - Has his mind completely wiped and proceeds to relearn all his abilities and come back even stronger with minimal (if any) training.

    Solo twins (Old EU) - have a two way connection with their mother in utero... among multiple other feats before they are sent off to study with their uncle.

    Rey is not a Mary Sue. In fact the force abilities she accomplishes are straight up tame compared to some of the things other powerful force users accomplish with little to no training (the Jedi taught mind trick to younglings... which seems like a terrible idea, but that's neither here nor there). If you have a problem with the things Rey does, you don't have a problem with Rey, you have a problem with Star Wars...

    What about using Jedi Mind Tricks, and mind-reading Kylo? That scene is the main source of the Mary Sue argument. Remember, Rey has had NO training and barely knows what the Force is.
    #CloneHelmets4Life...VICTORY!!!! :smiley: "I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere." The more you tighten your grip, CG/EA, the more whales will slip through your fingers (and go F2P or quit).
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