Rey was a straight up Mary Sue. I don't care how powerful she is meant to be, she shouldn't be able to successfully use a jedi mind trick on her 3rd try without even really knowing anything about the force.
No. She's not. Of all the arguments against TFA this is the one that bothers me the most.
Anakin - uses force precognition to pilot podracers (a thing a Jedi says humans generally can't do) before he knows the force is even a thing.
Luke - Recieves the profound training of an old man telling him to "stretch out with [his] feelings" and proceeds to blindly block three blaster bolts and bend a full speed torpedo 90 degrees down a two meter tube, a feet that's "impossible, even for a computer"
Starkiller - Rips the lightsaber out of Darth Vader's hand (!) when he's like 2 years old.
Reven - Has his mind completely wiped and proceeds to relearn all his abilities and come back even stronger with minimal (if any) training.
Solo twins (Old EU) - have a two way connection with their mother in utero... among multiple other feats before they are sent off to study with their uncle.
Rey is not a Mary Sue. In fact the force abilities she accomplishes are straight up tame compared to some of the things other powerful force users accomplish with little to no training (the Jedi taught mind trick to younglings... which seems like a terrible idea, but that's neither here nor there). If you have a problem with the things Rey does, you don't have a problem with Rey, you have a problem with Star Wars...
What about using Jedi Mind Tricks, and mind-reading Kylo? That scene is the main source of the Mary Sue argument. Remember, Rey has had NO training and barely knows what the Force is.
Did you read what I posted? All of those characters had little to no training and barely knew what the force was and did more impressive things. That was the entire point.
As far as Kylo goes, it's that scene that shows her the most about the force because he isn't refined in what he does with it. Everything he does throughout that movie is a brute force application. He relies on his power to get through and in doing so he opens a link between their minds. He just wasn't prepared for her to use it too. It's his lack of refinement and his arrogance (the latter being a recurring theme in all the movies) that leads to his downfall, thus Snoke instructing Hux to bring Kylo back to finish his training.
Rey was a straight up Mary Sue. I don't care how powerful she is meant to be, she shouldn't be able to successfully use a jedi mind trick on her 3rd try without even really knowing anything about the force.
No. She's not. Of all the arguments against TFA this is the one that bothers me the most.
Anakin - uses force precognition to pilot podracers (a thing a Jedi says humans generally can't do) before he knows the force is even a thing.
Luke - Recieves the profound training of an old man telling him to "stretch out with [his] feelings" and proceeds to blindly block three blaster bolts and bend a full speed torpedo 90 degrees down a two meter tube, a feet that's "impossible, even for a computer"
Starkiller - Rips the lightsaber out of Darth Vader's hand (!) when he's like 2 years old.
Reven - Has his mind completely wiped and proceeds to relearn all his abilities and come back even stronger with minimal (if any) training.
Solo twins (Old EU) - have a two way connection with their mother in utero... among multiple other feats before they are sent off to study with their uncle.
Rey is not a Mary Sue. In fact the force abilities she accomplishes are straight up tame compared to some of the things other powerful force users accomplish with little to no training (the Jedi taught mind trick to younglings... which seems like a terrible idea, but that's neither here nor there). If you have a problem with the things Rey does, you don't have a problem with Rey, you have a problem with Star Wars...
What about using Jedi Mind Tricks, and mind-reading Kylo? That scene is the main source of the Mary Sue argument. Remember, Rey has had NO training and barely knows what the Force is.
Rey is around twenty years old living on an outpost for scavengers, smugglers, deserters and scoundrels. She may not know the ways of the force, but she has had to of heard rumors about its power and uses. It’s not that big of a leap for her to have heard a rumor that the Jedi can influence people and read minds. In the dire situation of her captivity she thought “why not give it a try” and lo and behold it worked. She had experienced the force calling out at that point so she had a sense of it.
TFA was a great, fun movie, just like all of them minus the first two hours of TPM, if you don’t like it that’s cool, that’s your prerogative, but any arguments about the story being derivitave go into the “so what?” pile. Shakespeare derived most of his work from other sources (including himself) and King Lear is still a great play.
I’m not comparing Lucas and Shakespeare in a literary or artistic way, just as a demonstration of how we can appreciate material that is reminiscent of other source material. The great accomplishment of SW is in technological fields, not in storytelling or acting or writing, but also that it managed to encapsulate an entire generation and inspire such dedicated passion for us to even argue about this on a mobile game forum. The Holy Trilogy are terrible movies from an objective point of view, but I still love them and hold them dear, and I enjoyed TFA because I understand that they are nothing more than sci-fi soap operas. Applying your expectations of greatness will only lead to disappointment.
When I think about it, it's a beat for beat repackaging of A New Hope except ...
Actually this is the only part I strongly disagree with. My theory is that it's meant to be a compilation of all three of the OT movies.
Luke and Rey, both orphans from desert planets that are caught up into larger conflicts because each finds a droid carrying crucial and top secret information needed to stop an evil organization. Each is unaware of his/her true heritage, though that heritage will become vitally important in the subsequent film. Each one meets a mentor (Old Ben/Han respectively) who sacrifices himself in the final act for the greater good and to help the hero escape. Oh and each one must duel the arch-villain (Vader in the trench run, Kylo outside SK base) in the midst of their organizations last ditch effort to destroy the spherical super weapon created by an evil space Third Reich . That about cover the major plot points of ANH and TFA?
Remind me how this isn't a beat for beat retelling? There is even a rescue from the superweapon, though this time the parallel is Leia and Rey.
Don't Forget about...
Unkar Plutt = Jawas
Teedo = Tuskan raiders
Maz's Castle = Cantina
Sabine Natal = Greedo
The rebel bases that the pilots fly off from (look similar)
A woman captured and interrogated by a dark side user
An escape by said woman from the cell
Poe Dameron = Wedge Antilles
A political adviser (Hux = Tarkin)
The destruction of a planet (or planets) using a laser weapon
A hero that attempts to flee the action (Han not wanting to rescue Leia and Finn wanting to flee Takodana)
Jakku = Tatooine
Escape on Millenium Falcon = Escape on Millenium Falcon
Rey = Luke Skywalker
A character that uses the force to defeat the antagonists (Luke shooting the missile and Rey pulling the lightsaber towards her)
An antagonist who is wounded or beaten, but not defeated
Han Solo = Old Ben Kenobi
Fleeing of Rey's Parents/ Abandonment = Luke not knowing his father
Important Holograms (Leia = Map to Luke)
The use of mind control (these are not the droids you are looking for = you will leave this cell with the door open)
Ok, you have to admit some of those are stretches. Unkar Plutt as jawas? Poe as Wedge? Teedo (assuming thats the creature that tries to steal bb8) as tusken raiders? The antagonist is beaten? And “a character uses the force to defeat the antagonist”? This is star wars. People are going to use the force. And who is Sabine Natal?
He meant Bazine Netal.
Yeah, TFA is a soft reboot of ANH... For better or for worse
I still dont know who or what bazine netal is
The weird looking chick from TFA who informed the First Order about BB-8:
How is she greedo? Wouldn't she be more akin to snout guy?
Ok, you have to admit some of those are stretches. Unkar Plutt as jawas? Poe as Wedge? Teedo (assuming thats the creature that tries to steal bb8) as tusken raiders? The antagonist is beaten? And “a character uses the force to defeat the antagonist”? This is star wars. People are going to use the force. And who is Sabine Natal?
I admit some of those were stretches, though both Teedo and the Tuskan Raiders rode large creatures, attempted to steal the protagonists belongings, and had similar appearances.
Rey was a straight up Mary Sue. I don't care how powerful she is meant to be, she shouldn't be able to successfully use a jedi mind trick on her 3rd try without even really knowing anything about the force.
No. She's not. Of all the arguments against TFA this is the one that bothers me the most.
Anakin - uses force precognition to pilot podracers (a thing a Jedi says humans generally can't do) before he knows the force is even a thing.
Luke - Recieves the profound training of an old man telling him to "stretch out with [his] feelings" and proceeds to blindly block three blaster bolts and bend a full speed torpedo 90 degrees down a two meter tube, a feet that's "impossible, even for a computer"
Starkiller - Rips the lightsaber out of Darth Vader's hand (!) when he's like 2 years old.
Reven - Has his mind completely wiped and proceeds to relearn all his abilities and come back even stronger with minimal (if any) training.
Solo twins (Old EU) - have a two way connection with their mother in utero... among multiple other feats before they are sent off to study with their uncle.
Rey is not a Mary Sue. In fact the force abilities she accomplishes are straight up tame compared to some of the things other powerful force users accomplish with little to no training (the Jedi taught mind trick to younglings... which seems like a terrible idea, but that's neither here nor there). If you have a problem with the things Rey does, you don't have a problem with Rey, you have a problem with Star Wars...
What about using Jedi Mind Tricks, and mind-reading Kylo? That scene is the main source of the Mary Sue argument. Remember, Rey has had NO training and barely knows what the Force is.
Rey is around twenty years old living on an outpost for scavengers, smugglers, deserters and scoundrels. She may not know the ways of the force, but she has had to of heard rumors about its power and uses. It’s not that big of a leap for her to have heard a rumor that the Jedi can influence people and read minds. In the dire situation of her captivity she thought “why not give it a try” and lo and behold it worked. She had experienced the force calling out at that point so she had a sense of it.
TFA was a great, fun movie, just like all of them minus the first two hours of TPM, if you don’t like it that’s cool, that’s your prerogative, but any arguments about the story being derivitave go into the “so what?” pile. Shakespeare derived most of his work from other sources (including himself) and King Lear is still a great play.
I’m not comparing Lucas and Shakespeare in a literary or artistic way, just as a demonstration of how we can appreciate material that is reminiscent of other source material. The great accomplishment of SW is in technological fields, not in storytelling or acting or writing, but also that it managed to encapsulate an entire generation and inspire such dedicated passion for us to even argue about this on a mobile game forum. The Holy Trilogy are terrible movies from an objective point of view, but I still love them and hold them dear, and I enjoyed TFA because I understand that they are nothing more than sci-fi soap operas. Applying your expectations of greatness will only lead to disappointment.
I don't know who said it, but there's like 7 stories in the world and all 'new' stories are variations on these ones.
When I think about it, it's a beat for beat repackaging of A New Hope except that this time the main character is a Mary Sue.
AND it doesn't even tell a complete story. It just cuts off at the end. If this were just a regular movie, we would be ****. But it's Star Wars. So we like it anyway.
Thing is, Disney knows we're all gonna see the next one! You shouldn't leave almost all of your major plot lines unsolved to force us to watch the next movie when you know we are gonna pay to see it anyway! It's lazy story writing!
The only reason I really liked the movie is because it's a continuation of a story and a franchise that I already know that I love.
If you showed that movie to someone who had never seen a SW film, would they think it was so great?
Sure it had some good acting and awesome effects but was the story complete and were the characters compelling?
Think:
If you hadn't seen Han shooting first and taking names in the OT, would you really care that much when he dies?
If you didn't know that Luke blew up the first DS or redeemed a hardened Sith Lord in the OT wouldn't you be confused about why everyone is looking for him?
Why should you care about Rey when she never overcomes any difficulties and instead is gifted every ability she needs out of nowhere as the plot requires it?
Do you laugh at Han saying "That's not how the force works!" If you haven't seen the other movies to know how it does work?
I'm not saying I didn't enjoy the movie, but it was well received because it was based on a proven formula (ANH) and teased you with nostalgia as it went on, oh and it's SW. I will be tremendously disappointed if The Last Jedi doesn't improve.
Which, to improve on TFA, needs these 3 things:
1. Rey needs to actually have meaningful character development instead of just dropping new force powers like Westbrook drops Triple-Doubles.
2. It needs to tell a complete story. Don't just cut the movie at a random point at the end so I have no feelings of resolution.
3. It CANNOT use nostalgia as a key selling point. That will only work once. After the first time it's just tired tropes and people will know that Disney has no interest in original storytelling but only in pumping out sequels for the money.
The original Star Wars (EPIV) was never meant to have a sequel to it let alone, 3 prequels, 4 stand-alones, another set of 3 sequels, 2 TV shows, comics and books, being franchised in LEGO, video games and it’s own national day (May the 4th). It was meant to just be “a film.” Luke was never meant to be a Jedi, there was never meant to be a second Death Star.
When I think about it, it's a beat for beat repackaging of A New Hope except that this time the main character is a Mary Sue.
AND it doesn't even tell a complete story. It just cuts off at the end. If this were just a regular movie, we would be ****. But it's Star Wars. So we like it anyway.
Thing is, Disney knows we're all gonna see the next one! You shouldn't leave almost all of your major plot lines unsolved to force us to watch the next movie when you know we are gonna pay to see it anyway! It's lazy story writing!
The only reason I really liked the movie is because it's a continuation of a story and a franchise that I already know that I love.
If you showed that movie to someone who had never seen a SW film, would they think it was so great?
Sure it had some good acting and awesome effects but was the story complete and were the characters compelling?
Think:
If you hadn't seen Han shooting first and taking names in the OT, would you really care that much when he dies?
If you didn't know that Luke blew up the first DS or redeemed a hardened Sith Lord in the OT wouldn't you be confused about why everyone is looking for him?
Why should you care about Rey when she never overcomes any difficulties and instead is gifted every ability she needs out of nowhere as the plot requires it?
Do you laugh at Han saying "That's not how the force works!" If you haven't seen the other movies to know how it does work?
I'm not saying I didn't enjoy the movie, but it was well received because it was based on a proven formula (ANH) and teased you with nostalgia as it went on, oh and it's SW. I will be tremendously disappointed if The Last Jedi doesn't improve.
Which, to improve on TFA, needs these 3 things:
1. Rey needs to actually have meaningful character development instead of just dropping new force powers like Westbrook drops Triple-Doubles.
2. It needs to tell a complete story. Don't just cut the movie at a random point at the end so I have no feelings of resolution.
3. It CANNOT use nostalgia as a key selling point. That will only work once. After the first time it's just tired tropes and people will know that Disney has no interest in original storytelling but only in pumping out sequels for the money.
The original Star Wars (EPIV) was never meant to have a sequel to it let alone, 3 prequels, 4 stand-alones, another set of 3 prequels, 2 TV shows, comics and books, being franchised in LEGO, video games and it’s own national day (May the 4th). It was meant to just be “a film.” Luke was never meant to be a Jedi, there was never meant to be a second Death or an Emperor.
The emperor was in the original script for A New Hope and was referenced in the film. Also, if a sequel was made, Lucas always intended for Luke to be a jedi. And what do you mean "another set of three prequels?"
When I think about it, it's a beat for beat repackaging of A New Hope except that this time the main character is a Mary Sue.
AND it doesn't even tell a complete story. It just cuts off at the end. If this were just a regular movie, we would be ****. But it's Star Wars. So we like it anyway.
Thing is, Disney knows we're all gonna see the next one! You shouldn't leave almost all of your major plot lines unsolved to force us to watch the next movie when you know we are gonna pay to see it anyway! It's lazy story writing!
The only reason I really liked the movie is because it's a continuation of a story and a franchise that I already know that I love.
If you showed that movie to someone who had never seen a SW film, would they think it was so great?
Sure it had some good acting and awesome effects but was the story complete and were the characters compelling?
Think:
If you hadn't seen Han shooting first and taking names in the OT, would you really care that much when he dies?
If you didn't know that Luke blew up the first DS or redeemed a hardened Sith Lord in the OT wouldn't you be confused about why everyone is looking for him?
Why should you care about Rey when she never overcomes any difficulties and instead is gifted every ability she needs out of nowhere as the plot requires it?
Do you laugh at Han saying "That's not how the force works!" If you haven't seen the other movies to know how it does work?
I'm not saying I didn't enjoy the movie, but it was well received because it was based on a proven formula (ANH) and teased you with nostalgia as it went on, oh and it's SW. I will be tremendously disappointed if The Last Jedi doesn't improve.
Which, to improve on TFA, needs these 3 things:
1. Rey needs to actually have meaningful character development instead of just dropping new force powers like Westbrook drops Triple-Doubles.
2. It needs to tell a complete story. Don't just cut the movie at a random point at the end so I have no feelings of resolution.
3. It CANNOT use nostalgia as a key selling point. That will only work once. After the first time it's just tired tropes and people will know that Disney has no interest in original storytelling but only in pumping out sequels for the money.
The original Star Wars (EPIV) was never meant to have a sequel to it let alone, 3 prequels, 4 stand-alones, another set of 3 prequels, 2 TV shows, comics and books, being franchised in LEGO, video games and it’s own national day (May the 4th). It was meant to just be “a film.” Luke was never meant to be a Jedi, there was never meant to be a second Death or an Emperor.
The emperor was in the original script for A New Hope and was referenced in the film. Also, if a sequel was made, Lucas always intended for Luke to be a jedi. And what do you mean "another set of three prequels?"
I would encourage anyone who thinks that TFA is a rehash to review the 1988 documentary "The Power of Myth". I also recommend reading Joseph Campbell's "The Hero with a Thousand Faces". You will find that in fact all of Star Wars mythology is a rehash and is intended to be so. It is a large part of why these films resonate with people. Furthermore, TFA followed that same pattern and continued to follow the cosmogonic cycle as occurred in ANH and the OT.
What I'm saying is that the similarities to ANH and the OT are a feature and not a bug. If you do not like that, it is on you and not the franchise.
Interesting, i thought the same about Rogue One. Even though TFA was a soft reboot of the franchise, my favorite parts of the movie weren’t rehashed things i was already familiar with (unlike rogue one). My favorite parts of TFA were the new characters (yes, all), their snappy, characteristic dialogue, and despite it not being particularly original, i liked the plot.
I mean, was I the only one who f***ing loved that scene between poe and finn in the TIE fighter? In the span of just a few minutes, we learn about their characters, their personalities, what their goals are, and how they react to dangerous situations, all during a great, engaging action scene. Maybe I’m wrong, but I didnt love that scene just because its star wars, i loved it because its a great scene in its own right.
Consider Rogue One on the other hand. Yes, it probably has the best executed action scenes in the franchise from a technical standpoint, but when I ask people what their favorite scenes are, they usually talk about Darth Vader, the dogfight at the end (which has 0 important characters involved, so who cares), or everything at the end that leads into ANH.
If anything, TFA would have worked better if it wasn’t star wars at all. Most of the problems people have with it seem to come from how it fits (or doesn’t fit) in the Star Wars universe.
I loved the Vader scene - so it did have an important character to the franchise, but not necessarily an important character to the stand alone movie itself.
Having said that - I simply loved K2, funny and such a great character right off the bat.
I also loved DK - what a great actor. I've seen him in Netflix's "Bloodline" and he was perfect for the role of DK. I loved all his scene, particularly the very first scene he is in.
I also love Saw Gerrera - other people might not, but to me and my brother, we think he is hilarious! We are always shouting "Lies" "Deceptions...every day...more lies" - he really is funny, even if it was not meant to be, lol
I also liked Jynn as a lead role. It must have been hard work for the writers to introduce new, never seen before characters, and make them all die in one movie - Han SOlo had 4 movies to make an impact on his death.
We all knew it wouldn't end well for the crew of R1, but I thought that Cassian and Jynn's death at the end was quite moving. As the scene then moves directly to the stolen plans and the Vader sequence, it also shows immediately that the galaxy does not stop to mourne - things continue and they played their part - which was the overall theme of the movie, their mission and evidently their purpose in the franchise.
I know I won't change your mind about R1, but perhaps you can see why some people liked it - it wasn't all nostalgia.
Rey was a straight up Mary Sue. I don't care how powerful she is meant to be, she shouldn't be able to successfully use a jedi mind trick on her 3rd try without even really knowing anything about the force.
No. She's not. Of all the arguments against TFA this is the one that bothers me the most.
Anakin - uses force precognition to pilot podracers (a thing a Jedi says humans generally can't do) before he knows the force is even a thing.
Luke - Recieves the profound training of an old man telling him to "stretch out with [his] feelings" and proceeds to blindly block three blaster bolts and bend a full speed torpedo 90 degrees down a two meter tube, a feet that's "impossible, even for a computer"
Starkiller - Rips the lightsaber out of Darth Vader's hand (!) when he's like 2 years old.
Reven - Has his mind completely wiped and proceeds to relearn all his abilities and come back even stronger with minimal (if any) training.
Solo twins (Old EU) - have a two way connection with their mother in utero... among multiple other feats before they are sent off to study with their uncle.
Rey is not a Mary Sue. In fact the force abilities she accomplishes are straight up tame compared to some of the things other powerful force users accomplish with little to no training (the Jedi taught mind trick to younglings... which seems like a terrible idea, but that's neither here nor there). If you have a problem with the things Rey does, you don't have a problem with Rey, you have a problem with Star Wars...
What about using Jedi Mind Tricks, and mind-reading Kylo? That scene is the main source of the Mary Sue argument. Remember, Rey has had NO training and barely knows what the Force is.
I think Rey'a abilities are a little over the top. Anakin's force abilities were natural reflexes of a force user, Rey goes beyond that and starts actively reaching out with the force pulling off full blown powerful force powers (mind tricks etc.) but also bests others well trained in the force and of the Skywalker lineage (Kylo), such as with mind probe and telekinesis - something that is crazy.
Luke had training from Ben and yes he guided the proton torpedo into the exhaust port of the Death Star but he did not flat out best Darth Vader through the use of any force power, as Rey did against Kylo.
In light of all of this Rey is overpowered compared to what we have seen thus far, including the chosen one of the force, Anakin/Vader, and the next most powerful force user - his son, Luke.
Having said that - Rey's origins have not yet been explained. She may yet be a skywalker or worse be the next chosen one of the force herself (don't like that idea though).
However the only counter to any of this is the WILL of the force. Theoretically, no one in the galaxy should be able to defeat Anakin/Vader at full strength or Luke at full strength, judging what we know about how the force is strong in the Skywalker family, due to Anakin's origins as the prophecy of the force.
Kylo is also a Skywalker - so, he too should be very difficult to best.
Getting back to the counter part of my argument, as these characters (Skywalkers) are powerful force users, the on,ly thing that can beat them is the force itself.
The force is alive and has a will of its own. This trumps anything that comes after it, including the power of the Skywalker family.
So, if it was the WILL of the force that Rey would beat Kylo, then that is what will happen. So really the force itself can make anything possible and can make anything happen.
The Force serves itself first and foremost, thriving not on balance but on conflict to establish "balance". Why else does every major conflict or war in this galaxy involve strong Force
Users? They fight, and this feeds the Force. Contrary to the Jedi belief that life feeds the Force, it is death that sustains it. Afterwards the survivors bond together, breed and create more life to be claimed for the Force.
Adam Xans, "The Fallacy of the Force" published in the Year of the Empire 13.
"Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen...mostly"
The Force serves itself first and foremost, thriving not on balance but on conflict to establish "balance". Why else does every major conflict or war in this galaxy involve strong Force
Users? They fight, and this feeds the Force. Contrary to the Jedi belief that life feeds the Force, it is death that sustains it. Afterwards the survivors bond together, breed and create more life to be claimed for the Force.
Adam Xans, "The Fallacy of the Force" published in the Year of the Empire 13.
Would it not be fueled by the circle of life - being life and death, as per Mufasa from the Lion King, who of course is...Darth Vader.
Wow - that's deep!
Not to mention that was from the Lion King - a Disney movie, before Star Wars became Disney!!!!
I dont have a problem with rey’s proficiency in the force, i just dont like that there isnt anything she needs any apparent improvement on. Sure, she’s a bit sloppy with some things, but she can fix things, fly spaceships, shoot a gun, swing a lightsaber, swing a stick, use a variety of force techniques, escape from prison on her own, and she has a very admirable moral compass. In terms of in-story development, there isn’t much need for improvement and therefore she doesn’t have a foundation for an effective character arc (unlike kylo, luke, finn, leia, or even poe).
If you selected just one of those aspects i listed above and took it away from rey, she would go from a decent character to a terrific one. Imagine a protagonist who lacks a clear moral compass. What if rey felt rage for her parents leaving her and she projected that rage against the first order. Then she would be extremely interesting and would have far more potential for a fulfilling arc. Her proficiency in combat would make more sense and there would be more tension in the story because the audience would find it plausible that she could be lured by the dark side.
All that being said, despite the flaws in her writing, I find Rey very charismatic and likable (major props to daisy ridley), far more than anyone in rogue one or the prequels.
If you think about it for a while, and maybe Google it, you might be able to figure out the problem with the term "Mary Sue" on your own. If not, I don't really care to explain it.
If you think about it for a while, and maybe Google it, you might be able to figure out the problem with the term "Mary Sue" on your own. If not, I don't really care to explain it.
Aka, I don't really have a point. Great!
#CloneHelmets4Life...VICTORY!!!! "I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere." The more you tighten your grip, CG/EA, the more whales will slip through your fingers (and go F2P or quit).
If you think about it for a while, and maybe Google it, you might be able to figure out the problem with the term "Mary Sue" on your own. If not, I don't really care to explain it.
Aka, I don't really have a point. Great!
I figured out the problem with the term after a quick search and I never even heard the term. Maybe more searchin' & less fighting?
Like many terms, the colloquial use of “Mary Sue” doesn’t exactly match the original definition, but its close enough to where people know what other people are talking about. So if you’re discounting people’s arguments just because the terms they use to articulate their opinions dont line up perfectly with what you read on wikipedia, then reexamine how you conduct yourself in a civil discussion.
I include myself in the group of critics who believe that the term is used disproportionately against female characters, but that does not excuse the example of rey, whose arc could have been more effectively established.
As I read it, there's a danger of writers starting to second guess themselves when writing strong or powerful female characters, because they worry guys won't like it. That is stoopid, but I see how it could happen.
Chris Claremont wrote X-Men for years and his female characters were always very powerful (way more powerful than guy characters) 'cause that's the way he liked it. Sales did not plummet. Science. Maybe.
That fact (opinion) that TFA is bad but better than Rebels is sad.
Rebels has people who never finished training best Vader.
Are you going to call ANH a bad movie because an old man could hold his own against vader? No, because that scene services the story. Is Rebels a great show? Not particularly, but like anything it deserves to be judged based on its own, selfcontained characteristics, not just on your preconceived notions based on knowledge of a sprawling, inconsistent universe.
That fact (opinion) that TFA is bad but better than Rebels is sad.
Rebels has people who never finished training best Vader.
Are you going to call ANH a bad movie because an old man could hold his own against vader? No, because that scene services the story. Is Rebels a great show? Not particularly, but like anything it deserves to be judged based on its own, selfcontained characteristics, not just on your preconceived notions based on knowledge of a sprawling, inconsistent universe.
I feel like I'm learning whenever I read what you write.
That fact (opinion) that TFA is bad but better than Rebels is sad.
Rebels has people who never finished training best Vader.
Who bested Vader? I hope you do not mean Ahsoka. She sucker punched Vader with her sabers damaging his helmet.
They then moved towards each other to begin a climatic duel - which we did not see.
Vader remained triumphant and Ahsoka was seen limping away licking her wounds and so far has not been seen again.
As for Vader v. Kanan and Ezra - that is 2 Jedi on 1. Not to mention they could not best Vader and he more toyed with them than anything else. Ahsoka was perhaps the only challenge Vader faced and she knew she could prevent their deaths so cut them out of the fight, saving them, and risking her own life.
That fact (opinion) that TFA is bad but better than Rebels is sad.
Rebels has people who never finished training best Vader.
Who bested Vader? I hope you do not mean Ahsoka. She sucker punched Vader with her sabers damaging his helmet.
They then moved towards each other to begin a climatic duel - which we did not see.
Vader remained triumphant and Ahsoka was seen limping away licking her wounds and so far has not been seen again.
As for Vader v. Kanan and Ezra - that is 2 Jedi on 1. Not to mention they could not best Vader and he more toyed with them than anything else. Ahsoka was perhaps the only challenge Vader faced and she knew she could prevent their deaths so cut them out of the fight, saving them, and risking her own life.
I count it as bested if Vader didn’t kill Ezra and Kanan because they should’ve been crushed.
That fact (opinion) that TFA is bad but better than Rebels is sad.
Rebels has people who never finished training best Vader.
Are you going to call ANH a bad movie because an old man could hold his own against vader? No, because that scene services the story. Is Rebels a great show? Not particularly, but like anything it deserves to be judged based on its own, selfcontained characteristics, not just on your preconceived notions based on knowledge of a sprawling, inconsistent universe.
At least kenobi was good at fighting, not sure about Ezra
To the OP of this thread. Alot of ppl think the same as you did about the movie. I wasnt to impressed with it myself. Now if eoisode 8 can bind all things together and make sense 7 may have a redeeming quality. If it does that is. If 8 bridges the gap . 8 will decide for me if i will even care at all for 9. Its okay if others like 7 or prequels or whatever . i dont care for neither .
Replies
Did you read what I posted? All of those characters had little to no training and barely knew what the force was and did more impressive things. That was the entire point.
As far as Kylo goes, it's that scene that shows her the most about the force because he isn't refined in what he does with it. Everything he does throughout that movie is a brute force application. He relies on his power to get through and in doing so he opens a link between their minds. He just wasn't prepared for her to use it too. It's his lack of refinement and his arrogance (the latter being a recurring theme in all the movies) that leads to his downfall, thus Snoke instructing Hux to bring Kylo back to finish his training.
Rey is around twenty years old living on an outpost for scavengers, smugglers, deserters and scoundrels. She may not know the ways of the force, but she has had to of heard rumors about its power and uses. It’s not that big of a leap for her to have heard a rumor that the Jedi can influence people and read minds. In the dire situation of her captivity she thought “why not give it a try” and lo and behold it worked. She had experienced the force calling out at that point so she had a sense of it.
TFA was a great, fun movie, just like all of them minus the first two hours of TPM, if you don’t like it that’s cool, that’s your prerogative, but any arguments about the story being derivitave go into the “so what?” pile. Shakespeare derived most of his work from other sources (including himself) and King Lear is still a great play.
I’m not comparing Lucas and Shakespeare in a literary or artistic way, just as a demonstration of how we can appreciate material that is reminiscent of other source material. The great accomplishment of SW is in technological fields, not in storytelling or acting or writing, but also that it managed to encapsulate an entire generation and inspire such dedicated passion for us to even argue about this on a mobile game forum. The Holy Trilogy are terrible movies from an objective point of view, but I still love them and hold them dear, and I enjoyed TFA because I understand that they are nothing more than sci-fi soap operas. Applying your expectations of greatness will only lead to disappointment.
Yes.
I admit some of those were stretches, though both Teedo and the Tuskan Raiders rode large creatures, attempted to steal the protagonists belongings, and had similar appearances.
Yes, sorry I forgot about Snout Guy
I don't know who said it, but there's like 7 stories in the world and all 'new' stories are variations on these ones.
The original Star Wars (EPIV) was never meant to have a sequel to it let alone, 3 prequels, 4 stand-alones, another set of 3 sequels, 2 TV shows, comics and books, being franchised in LEGO, video games and it’s own national day (May the 4th). It was meant to just be “a film.” Luke was never meant to be a Jedi, there was never meant to be a second Death Star.
The emperor was in the original script for A New Hope and was referenced in the film. Also, if a sequel was made, Lucas always intended for Luke to be a jedi. And what do you mean "another set of three prequels?"
Read again.
What I'm saying is that the similarities to ANH and the OT are a feature and not a bug. If you do not like that, it is on you and not the franchise.
Hahah @DatBoi still hating R1, lol
I loved the Vader scene - so it did have an important character to the franchise, but not necessarily an important character to the stand alone movie itself.
Having said that - I simply loved K2, funny and such a great character right off the bat.
I also loved DK - what a great actor. I've seen him in Netflix's "Bloodline" and he was perfect for the role of DK. I loved all his scene, particularly the very first scene he is in.
I also love Saw Gerrera - other people might not, but to me and my brother, we think he is hilarious! We are always shouting "Lies" "Deceptions...every day...more lies" - he really is funny, even if it was not meant to be, lol
I also liked Jynn as a lead role. It must have been hard work for the writers to introduce new, never seen before characters, and make them all die in one movie - Han SOlo had 4 movies to make an impact on his death.
We all knew it wouldn't end well for the crew of R1, but I thought that Cassian and Jynn's death at the end was quite moving. As the scene then moves directly to the stolen plans and the Vader sequence, it also shows immediately that the galaxy does not stop to mourne - things continue and they played their part - which was the overall theme of the movie, their mission and evidently their purpose in the franchise.
I know I won't change your mind about R1, but perhaps you can see why some people liked it - it wasn't all nostalgia.
I think Rey'a abilities are a little over the top. Anakin's force abilities were natural reflexes of a force user, Rey goes beyond that and starts actively reaching out with the force pulling off full blown powerful force powers (mind tricks etc.) but also bests others well trained in the force and of the Skywalker lineage (Kylo), such as with mind probe and telekinesis - something that is crazy.
Luke had training from Ben and yes he guided the proton torpedo into the exhaust port of the Death Star but he did not flat out best Darth Vader through the use of any force power, as Rey did against Kylo.
In light of all of this Rey is overpowered compared to what we have seen thus far, including the chosen one of the force, Anakin/Vader, and the next most powerful force user - his son, Luke.
Having said that - Rey's origins have not yet been explained. She may yet be a skywalker or worse be the next chosen one of the force herself (don't like that idea though).
However the only counter to any of this is the WILL of the force. Theoretically, no one in the galaxy should be able to defeat Anakin/Vader at full strength or Luke at full strength, judging what we know about how the force is strong in the Skywalker family, due to Anakin's origins as the prophecy of the force.
Kylo is also a Skywalker - so, he too should be very difficult to best.
Getting back to the counter part of my argument, as these characters (Skywalkers) are powerful force users, the on,ly thing that can beat them is the force itself.
The force is alive and has a will of its own. This trumps anything that comes after it, including the power of the Skywalker family.
So, if it was the WILL of the force that Rey would beat Kylo, then that is what will happen. So really the force itself can make anything possible and can make anything happen.
Users? They fight, and this feeds the Force. Contrary to the Jedi belief that life feeds the Force, it is death that sustains it. Afterwards the survivors bond together, breed and create more life to be claimed for the Force.
Adam Xans, "The Fallacy of the Force" published in the Year of the Empire 13.
Would it not be fueled by the circle of life - being life and death, as per Mufasa from the Lion King, who of course is...Darth Vader.
Wow - that's deep!
Not to mention that was from the Lion King - a Disney movie, before Star Wars became Disney!!!!
That's really deep! lol
Present an argument that Rey isn't a Mary Sue then.
If you selected just one of those aspects i listed above and took it away from rey, she would go from a decent character to a terrific one. Imagine a protagonist who lacks a clear moral compass. What if rey felt rage for her parents leaving her and she projected that rage against the first order. Then she would be extremely interesting and would have far more potential for a fulfilling arc. Her proficiency in combat would make more sense and there would be more tension in the story because the audience would find it plausible that she could be lured by the dark side.
All that being said, despite the flaws in her writing, I find Rey very charismatic and likable (major props to daisy ridley), far more than anyone in rogue one or the prequels.
That's not the point.
Then make a point, because thus far you haven't made one worth consideration.
Aka, I don't really have a point. Great!
I figured out the problem with the term after a quick search and I never even heard the term. Maybe more searchin' & less fighting?
I include myself in the group of critics who believe that the term is used disproportionately against female characters, but that does not excuse the example of rey, whose arc could have been more effectively established.
Chris Claremont wrote X-Men for years and his female characters were always very powerful (way more powerful than guy characters) 'cause that's the way he liked it. Sales did not plummet. Science. Maybe.
Rebels has people who never finished training best Vader.
Are you going to call ANH a bad movie because an old man could hold his own against vader? No, because that scene services the story. Is Rebels a great show? Not particularly, but like anything it deserves to be judged based on its own, selfcontained characteristics, not just on your preconceived notions based on knowledge of a sprawling, inconsistent universe.
I feel like I'm learning whenever I read what you write.
Who bested Vader? I hope you do not mean Ahsoka. She sucker punched Vader with her sabers damaging his helmet.
They then moved towards each other to begin a climatic duel - which we did not see.
Vader remained triumphant and Ahsoka was seen limping away licking her wounds and so far has not been seen again.
As for Vader v. Kanan and Ezra - that is 2 Jedi on 1. Not to mention they could not best Vader and he more toyed with them than anything else. Ahsoka was perhaps the only challenge Vader faced and she knew she could prevent their deaths so cut them out of the fight, saving them, and risking her own life.
I count it as bested if Vader didn’t kill Ezra and Kanan because they should’ve been crushed.
At least kenobi was good at fighting, not sure about Ezra