Star Wars: The Last Jedi Spoiler thread

Replies

  • I think Force users are constantly using the abilities against each other during melee combat. There is an ever-present mental/telepathic/telekinetic battle occurring at the same time as the physical. They push, pull, poke, prod at each other to deflect blows and affect balance all the time. Each of these Force attacks are guarded against and countered by the defender. They don't make a big deal of these invisible effects in the films (except when they fling equipment at each other or collapse pillars and ceilings on each other), but we see more of it in the animated series (usually a Force push), and it is definitely explored in the novels.

    In the new Zahn novel Thrawn: Alliances, he is constantly explaining how Anakin uses his foresight and telekinetic abilities to deflect enemy attacks so they miss instead of blowing holes in him like they were about to do. This is why it is so dangerous to do battle with a Force-wielder. They know what you are going to do before you do it, and stop you before you start.

    It also seems to take a tremendous amount of skill to perform intricate telekinetic manipulation. Throwing a rock, levitating a person, or generating a repulsive push over a wide area is brute force that seems to be relatively easy compared to something like flipping a switch on the other side of the room, disengaging a pair of binding cuffs, or assembling a lightsaber. There's a reason you don't see these things happening much in battle. It takes too much focus to effectively manipulate the small scale ... which would explain why it is too hard to push the little locked power button on the enemy's lightsaber while they are trying to remove your head with it.

    Unless you are Rey, of course. Then you can use your Force Projection to build lightsabers on a distant planet in the middle of a Force lightning charged boulder tornado.
  • So much has been said about the Mary Sue aspect of Rey. The thought occurs, she is not powerful alone, she is just well connected. (It always comes down to who you know, not what you know, doesn't it) She has a strong connection to the force and the inhabitants there of. They do the heavy lifting. She takes the bow. Which could be why Lucas's vision for 7-8-9 and beyond could have been exploring the realm of the force.

    As for the saber and others switching their opponents saber off, the controls are isomorphorphic. They only respond to the owner. LOL.
  • Boo
    3158 posts Member
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    @Boo

    All the scenes are structured for the sake of drama...We're just nerd-arguing with no hope of winning.

    You said Maul in your example was a fledgling Sith Lord and didn't have the power or experience to use the force as affectively as those such as Dooku or Sidious

    Yet did he not send "equally fledgling" Obi Wan down the shaft by doing exactly what you said he is incapable of? Force pushing?! Your point on that one is moot.

    Invented rules about why they can't use Force powers are exactly that. Yoda could have easily redirected Dookus lightning right back at him as he clearly caught it in his hand. We saw in Rogue One that Vader was able to "all of a sudden" catch and hold a blaster bolt to then release it at another soldier later on. That isn't questioned. It's just regarded as Vader being Vader.

    If Kylo should have used the force v. Guards then Luke should have shown more of his force powers in his fight on Jabba's barge. See? Can argue that there are countless times where applying force powers would have made a situation less detrimental/dangerous/more logical. But hey...

    Yes I guess we are nerd arguing lol.

    But in fairness I said that using the force in a duel between 2 force users is usually done when caught off guard or one is clearly more powerful than the other and they are showing off or testing their power.

    In the case of Maul - he and Obi Wan were pretty evenly matched. Maul snuck a force push on Obi Wan, sending him down the vent. However, he lacked the power to raise Obi Wan from the vent to kill him, or push him further, where Obi Wan was prepared and likely could have defended (for arguments sake).

    just as Dooku caught Anakin unprepared with force lightening in AOTC, where Obi Wan then deflected it with his saber, as he was prepared and cautious.

    Dooku also managed to catch Obi Wan off guard in ROTS (where unlike Maul) he had the strength in the force to lift and throw Obi Wan like a ragdoll - this may not have succeeded if Obi Wan prepared for that.

    Yoda deflecting the lightening back at Dooku would have been Yoda using the force (a darkside power in a counter attack) and Yoda chose not to. Regrdless their "contest" in the force was therefore even and they moved on to lightsaber combat.

    As for Vader - we have already seen him deflect Han's blaster shots in ESB (although not back at Han - as he needed the rebels to draw out Luke). Kylo himself "paused" blaster shots in mid air - so seeing Vader do this in R1 wasn't a stretch.

    Sticking to R1 - Vader decimated those Rebel troops because they could not defend against his attacks - particularly the force. Was this not dramatic?

    Again with Yoda v. Palpatine's guards in ROTS - this again illustrates the illogical scene of Kylo unable to effectively defend himself against Snoke's guards in using the force.

    As for Luke on Jabba's Sail Barge - we never saw Luke pick up anyone with the force or push/throw them away - yes that may have been handy for him to do. He may not have had those abilities or at least on that level - Maul didn't and he was a Sith Lord. We did see him mind trick Jabba's servant. He instead ultimately let the force guide his actions and movements to victory, as he did when he destroyed the Death Star.

    Kylo on the other hand will do anything to win - we have seen him use those sorts of force powers - freezing people and blaster bolts and pushing people away etc - it just seems odd that he apparently "forgot" he has the force - especially when facing non-force wielding opponents such as Snoke's guards - and for what purpose? For the sake of Johnson wanting the seen dramatic? Again, was the Vader scene not dramatic? I am not saying he needed to do what Vader did, but pushing them back giving him breathing space to regain his lightsaber wouldn't be a stretch.

    He could have used the force if Snoke's guards were trained in the force and could defend against force attacks - alas, another issue with TLJ...there are many.
  • Vendi1983
    1641 posts Member
    edited October 14
    @Boo, how much are we going to bet that Abrams pulls another Remix 2.0, and in EP 9 uses the same gimmick from RotJ to reveal that Rey is a child of Han and Leia, and Han left before she was born, never knowing. Leia put her into hiding to protect her from her past. We all know Unkar Plutt had her from childhood on Jakku as it's his hand/voice pulling her when she's dropped off in her "memories".
  • Boo
    3158 posts Member
    edited October 15
    Something like that for sure is possible. At least her lineage may then finally hold up as being an "equal" to Kylo at least - but who knows what they are going to do.

    Things don't add up that's for sure from TFA - why did she witness Kylo killing someone in her vision with his Knights of Ren - this could not be the sacking of Luke's Jedi Academy as we thought, as he wasn't Kylo Ren at that poins and certainly would not have had his cross-guard red saber either, as seen in Rey's vision.

    Why was she seen on Jakku being taken by Plutt as you described, while her "junker" parents apparently sped away in some fancy looking ship?

    Why was Kylo so interested about a "girl" on Jakku?

    Why did Kylo not chose to kill Rey on numerous occasions? - he chose to keep her alive and has some affection for her.

    Why would Maz Kanata ask Han "so who's the girl?" and conveniently the scene cuts away?

    Why would Han be considered her "father figure"?

    Why would Leia hug Rey? Someone she doesn't know at all - would you hug a stranger???

    Why does the Skywalker lightsaber call to Rey and no one else?

    There are too many mysteries that can't be swept away with Johnson's garbage writing - none of this makes any sense!

    I thought it interesting if Rey's mother was forced to become one of Kylo's Knights of Ren and that she left Rey on Jakku to be safe - perhaps that may also lead to Luke being Rey's father, but considering how he acted in TLJ - not sure about that either.

    Who knows what they are going to do. They had better do something, because what we got doesn't make any sense from the set-ups from TFA listed above, nor does it make any sense in regard to power of the force and lore of the franchise, as I have stated above in different posts.
  • Boo wrote: »
    JJ & Rian are directors. Not fans, ignore press saying otherwise. They took the job, banked the check, and that was all they worried about. This is a huge wake up, it's all about the Benjamin's. If 9 is not a screaming FINACIAL success they will blame us, and go on and keep on keeping on.

    Sad but true. Unfortunately not the same can be said for the MCU, where it has an evolving story respectful to what has already come to pass as well as how they are moving forward - they listen to the fans, give the fans what they want as well as keep the movies fantastic, releasing several movies a year - all being big box office hits.

    Then you get to Star Wars, where they do everything they can to ignore the wants of fans, in fact not even be respectful of fans at all or what has already come to pass in prior movies. Now Iger is screaming Star Wars fatigue - which doesn't even make sense when you look at Marvel - and what is more confusing is that both Star Wars and Marvel are under the Disney umbrella.

    None of this makes any sense at all.

    George Lucas is singing "How do you like me know?" LOL

    More likely saying, "glad I pulled out when I did."
  • Boo wrote: »
    Something like that for sure is possible. At least her lineage may then finally hold up as being an "equal" to Kylo at least - but who knows what they are going to do.

    Things don't add up that's for sure from TFA - why did she witness Kylo killing someone in her vision with his Knights of Ren - this could not be the sacking of Luke's Jedi Academy as we thought, as he wasn't Kylo Ren at that poins and certainly would not have had his cross-guard red saber either, as seen in Rey's vision.

    Why was she seen on Jakku being taken by Plutt as you described, while her "junker" parents apparently sped away in some fancy looking ship?

    Why was Kylo so interested about a "girl" on Jakku?

    Why did Kylo not chose to kill Rey on numerous occasions? - he chose to keep her alive and has some affection for her.

    Why would Maz Kanata ask Han "so who's the girl?" and conveniently the scene cuts away?

    Why would Han be considered her "father figure"?

    Why would Leia hug Rey? Someone she doesn't know at all - would you hug a stranger???

    Why does the Skywalker lightsaber call to Rey and no one else?

    There are too many mysteries that can't be swept away with Johnson's garbage writing - none of this makes any sense!

    I thought it interesting if Rey's mother was forced to become one of Kylo's Knights of Ren and that she left Rey on Jakku to be safe - perhaps that may also lead to Luke being Rey's father, but considering how he acted in TLJ - not sure about that either.

    Who knows what they are going to do. They had better do something, because what we got doesn't make any sense from the set-ups from TFA listed above, nor does it make any sense in regard to power of the force and lore of the franchise, as I have stated above in different posts.

    The reason these things don't add up is quite simple. Rian Johnson had complete creative control of ep.8, and he simply didn't care about having things add up.

    There was zero direction given to this Disney trilogy. They are simply "winging it". They're hiring directors,
    and giving them complete control, despite those directors not being on the same page at all.
  • Boo
    3158 posts Member
    @Teague I 100% agree. I just don't know why so many other people do not see this - they all just typically say: "Johnson diverted people's expectations" and "it was different and fresh"!

    LOL, don't make me laugh :smiley:
  • I would love to see Quentin Tarantino direct episode 9.
  • Boo wrote: »
    @Teague I 100% agree. I just don't know why so many other people do not see this - they all just typically say: "Johnson diverted people's expectations" and "it was different and fresh"!

    LOL, don't make me laugh :smiley:

    ROTJ was the last Star wars Movie.
  • Boo wrote: »
    @Teague I 100% agree. I just don't know why so many other people do not see this - they all just typically say: "Johnson diverted people's expectations" and "it was different and fresh"!

    LOL, don't make me laugh :smiley:

    ROTJ was the last Star wars Movie.

    Rogue One and Solo were decent, but for the "main series" I think it is the last for me.
  • Boo
    3158 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    @Teague I 100% agree. I just don't know why so many other people do not see this - they all just typically say: "Johnson diverted people's expectations" and "it was different and fresh"!

    LOL, don't make me laugh :smiley:

    ROTJ was the last Star wars Movie.

    Rogue One and Solo were decent, but for the "main series" I think it is the last for me.

    Rogue One was awesome.

    I finally saw Solo recently - a few things didn't make sense and the flow to the movie was a bit jagged (probably due to many directors involved) but ultimately it was fairly enjoyable - certainly a lot better than TLJ, that's for sure.

    You are right, as far as the Saga goes - it's story ended with ROTJ.
  • Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    @Teague I 100% agree. I just don't know why so many other people do not see this - they all just typically say: "Johnson diverted people's expectations" and "it was different and fresh"!

    LOL, don't make me laugh :smiley:

    ROTJ was the last Star wars Movie.

    Rogue One and Solo were decent, but for the "main series" I think it is the last for me.

    Rogue One was awesome.

    I finally saw Solo recently - a few things didn't make sense and the flow to the movie was a bit jagged (probably due to many directors involved) but ultimately it was fairly enjoyable - certainly a lot better than TLJ, that's for sure.

    You are right, as far as the Saga goes - it's story ended with ROTJ.

    Solo had a lot going on, but a space heist with Young Han was cool. I think it merits a sequel to see where Maul and Qi'ra end up as far as a plot, I know Ben Kenobi finally dispatches Maul. I'm curious to see what becomes of Hans old flame. Also, the Kessel run was cool to see, if nothing more than nostalgia.
  • I found people were too hard on it (Solo). It had a brutal production schedule/setbacks and I think they chose a poor release date so close to TLJ. Forced fatigue on everyone.

    Was definitely not as bad as many people made it out to be. Definitely better than Ep 2 and borderline EP 1 (which was mainly saved by Maul/Podrace).
  • Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    @Teague I 100% agree. I just don't know why so many other people do not see this - they all just typically say: "Johnson diverted people's expectations" and "it was different and fresh"!

    LOL, don't make me laugh :smiley:

    ROTJ was the last Star wars Movie.

    Rogue One and Solo were decent, but for the "main series" I think it is the last for me.

    Rogue One was awesome.

    I finally saw Solo recently - a few things didn't make sense and the flow to the movie was a bit jagged (probably due to many directors involved) but ultimately it was fairly enjoyable - certainly a lot better than TLJ, that's for sure.

    You are right, as far as the Saga goes - it's story ended with ROTJ.

    First thing in my mind watching Rey climb up the inside of the Complex was.."Stardust"
  • Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    @Teague I 100% agree. I just don't know why so many other people do not see this - they all just typically say: "Johnson diverted people's expectations" and "it was different and fresh"!

    LOL, don't make me laugh :smiley:

    ROTJ was the last Star wars Movie.

    Rogue One and Solo were decent, but for the "main series" I think it is the last for me.

    Rogue One was awesome.

    I finally saw Solo recently - a few things didn't make sense and the flow to the movie was a bit jagged (probably due to many directors involved) but ultimately it was fairly enjoyable - certainly a lot better than TLJ, that's for sure.

    You are right, as far as the Saga goes - it's story ended with ROTJ.

    First thing in my mind watching Rey climb up the inside of the Complex was.."Stardust"

    Rey?
  • Vendi1983 wrote: »
    I found people were too hard on it (Solo). It had a brutal production schedule/setbacks and I think they chose a poor release date so close to TLJ. Forced fatigue on everyone.

    Was definitely not as bad as many people made it out to be. Definitely better than Ep 2 and borderline EP 1 (which was mainly saved by Maul/Podrace).

    Episode 2 was better than episode 1. PM can be difficult to sit through, but I have learned to look at it as an intro to the prequels.
    Maul was awesome, but more so in clone wars and rebels.
  • Boo
    3158 posts Member
    edited October 19
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    I found people were too hard on it (Solo). It had a brutal production schedule/setbacks and I think they chose a poor release date so close to TLJ. Forced fatigue on everyone.

    Was definitely not as bad as many people made it out to be. Definitely better than Ep 2 and borderline EP 1 (which was mainly saved by Maul/Podrace).

    Force fatigue - is the Disney/Lucasfilm excuse (along with many others). Its total hogwash. If Marvel can pull it together there is no reason why star wars can't either - the problem is the movies are bad.

    I don't think Solo needs a sequel - but I now Qira has been introduced, I think she could hold her own movie in the criminal underworld of the galaxy - many possibilities to be had there for sure! Doesn't mean Han & Chewie need to not be in it, but it would be a Qira movie. Perhaps whatever fate finds Qira, then turns Han into the smuggler we all recognize in ANH? If the criminal underworld sees a collapse (as clearly Jabba takes over ultimately) where does this leave Maul?

    We could therefore see the long-awaited Kenobi movie set on Tatooine, involving Jabba's rise to power as well as Tuskens etc. This movie could also include Maul's fate - just skirting the edges of the events of Rebels - for example we could see an end scene where Maul faces off against Kenobi in the desert (like I said it could skirt around what happens in Rebels) and we could see a proper duel between the two, rather than what we got in Rebels - very disappointing indeed that was, although I enjoyed their last words to each other.

    The only thing that saved TPM was Obi Wan, QGJ and of course Maul - everything else was too boring and childish, including Padme, Jar Jar, Lil' Ani and the podrace. I enjoyed the political portion (although kids would find that boring) as it served as the set up for the greatest story telling in the PT - Palpatines political manipulations and rise to power.

    But with the politics being there and kids finding that dull, I guess things like Jar Jar and the podrace balanced it out a bit for all ages to enjoy - so it wasn't overly bad (just glad they significantly cut down on Jar Jar going forward).

    Edited for swearing. - EA_Cian
    Post edited by EA_Cian on
  • Boo
    3158 posts Member
    Hahaha - I just realized all this speculation about possible Trilogy of Star Wars Story spin-off movies (Solo, Qira and Kenobi - and how they could all be connected) - but I really don't care to speculate or worry about E9, lol - that says a lot when the main story is no longer the focus of fans, lol
  • DuneSeaFarmer
    1498 posts Member
    edited October 19
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    @Teague I 100% agree. I just don't know why so many other people do not see this - they all just typically say: "Johnson diverted people's expectations" and "it was different and fresh"!

    LOL, don't make me laugh :smiley:

    ROTJ was the last Star wars Movie.

    Rogue One and Solo were decent, but for the "main series" I think it is the last for me.

    Rogue One was awesome.

    I finally saw Solo recently - a few things didn't make sense and the flow to the movie was a bit jagged (probably due to many directors involved) but ultimately it was fairly enjoyable - certainly a lot better than TLJ, that's for sure.

    You are right, as far as the Saga goes - it's story ended with ROTJ.

    First thing in my mind watching Rey climb up the inside of the Complex was.."Stardust"

    Rey?

    Yep, TFA, Han pointing his chin behind Finn, he finally turns and see's her. Rey climbing reminds me of Jyn climbing a similar tower.
  • Boo
    3158 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    @Teague I 100% agree. I just don't know why so many other people do not see this - they all just typically say: "Johnson diverted people's expectations" and "it was different and fresh"!

    LOL, don't make me laugh :smiley:

    ROTJ was the last Star wars Movie.

    Rogue One and Solo were decent, but for the "main series" I think it is the last for me.

    Rogue One was awesome.

    I finally saw Solo recently - a few things didn't make sense and the flow to the movie was a bit jagged (probably due to many directors involved) but ultimately it was fairly enjoyable - certainly a lot better than TLJ, that's for sure.

    You are right, as far as the Saga goes - it's story ended with ROTJ.

    First thing in my mind watching Rey climb up the inside of the Complex was.."Stardust"

    Rey?

    Yep, TFA, Han pointing his chin behind Finn, he finally turns and see's her. Rey climbing reminds me of Jyn climbing a similar tower.

    It also reminds me of Tom Cruise cliff climbing at the beginning of MI2, lol
  • Chucko_marek
    1641 posts Member
    edited October 22
    We so do not need a Kenobi movie. The only note worthy thing he did in the desert was kill Maul and Rebels covered that. The last thing we need is to watch an old man in the desert finding himself. As for Maul being killed so quickly, it was better that way. Obi Wan faced him several times, he was done with fighting Maul, since his role as Guardian shrank from a galactic role to an individual role. Obi Wan's last job as a Jedi was to protect Luke.
  • Boo
    3158 posts Member
    We so do not need a Kenobi movie. The only note worthy thing he did in the desert was kill Maul and Rebels covered that. The last thing we need is to watch an old man in the desert finding himself. As for Maul being killed so quickly, it was better that way. Obi Wan faced him several times, he was done with fighting Maul, since his role as Guardian shrank from a galactic role to an individual role. Obi Wan's last job as a Jedi was to protect Luke.

    I'd rather watch a movie of an old Jedi in a desert with some possible notable adventures rather than what we got with the Last Jedi and Solo...

  • I'd rather watch a movie of an old Jedi in a desert with some possible notable adventures rather than what we got with the Last Jedi and Solo...[/quote]

    Solo was better than the 2 we got for the main saga. But I think Kenobi would be on par with Last Jedi.
  • DuneSeaFarmer
    1498 posts Member
    edited October 23
    The movies are not made for enjoyment, they are Toydarians, only money will work.
  • The movies are not made for enjoyment, they are Toydarians, only money will work.

    Shouldn't that species go extinct?
  • Boo
    3158 posts Member
    The movies are not made for enjoyment, they are Toydarians, only money will work.

    Shouldn't that species go extinct?

    I bet a lot of female Toydarians are ....

    (fill in the blank)
  • DuneSeaFarmer
    1498 posts Member
    edited October 25
    I think at this point, the only way to save the franchise is to license other studios to develop SW movies, even if only from the "Legends" universe. Lucasfilm has it at their fingers tips and refuses to give the public what it wants. They simply flat out refuse. I think (sadly) even a complete failure won't even help. I don't doubt they will go down in flames before admitting they were wrong. Stop the "Fake news" reasons and just say, ok, we goofed. How do we fix this. and then fold their hands... AND LISTEN!
    Post edited by DuneSeaFarmer on
  • Boo
    3158 posts Member
    I think at this point, the only way to save the franchise is to license other studios to develop SW movies, even if only from the "Legends" universe. Lucasfilm has it at their fingers tips and refuses to give the public what it wants. They simply flat out refuse. I think (sadly) even a complete failure won't even help. I don't doubt they will go down in flames before admitting they were wrong. Stop the "Fake news" reasons and just say, ok, we goofed. How do we fix this. and then fold their hands... AND LISTEN!

    According to Iger we are all suffering Star Wars fatigue - so letting other studios get their paws on it to make more movies is certainly something they will never do.

    Disney/Lucasfilm need to man up and stop doubling down on where they went wrong. They should also apologize to the fan base - make the necessary changes at the leadership at Lucasfilm (you know what I mean) and regain the trust in the fans.

    They then need to have proper advisors to the lore or the galaxy George created (or George himself) to help write decent plots for the next movies and other media sources. Like the MCU they need to listen to the fans. They also need proper direction for their movies - not a relay race, which it has been with the current ST. A new Star Wars movie steadily every 2 years.

    If the MCU can do all of this and put out almost 3 movies every year at least and still stay on top - while also being under the Disney umbrella - there is no reason why Star Wars and Lucasfilm cannot do the same.
  • I think at this point, the only way to save the franchise is to license other studios to develop SW movies, even if only from the "Legends" universe. Lucasfilm has it at their fingers tips and refuses to give the public what it wants. They simply flat out refuse. I think (sadly) even a complete failure won't even help. I don't doubt they will go down in flames before admitting they were wrong. Stop the "Fake news" reasons and just say, ok, we goofed. How do we fix this. and then fold their hands... AND LISTEN!

    Bob Iger has admitted he made mistakes. He said it was his fault that they rushed movies out and that they will be slowing down production. This will give them more time to work on a story and to flesh out their characters
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