Star Wars: The Last Jedi Spoiler thread

Replies

  • chron
    88 posts Member
    Ryanwhales wrote: »
    Essay?

    Soliloquy. :)

  • Boo
    3432 posts Member
    chron wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Luke will save a murdering sith lord father but is happy to think of murdering his innocent nephew
    chron wrote: »
    Thought = action? Since when? He thought he could end all the galaxy's suffering in an instant of pure instinct, tainted by the Dark Side, which is like a drug - just because you don't fall completely under its temptation doesn't mean it stops tempting you, and he's the closest any Jedi has ever gotten to it without succumbing.

    Luke had grown since he had faced Vader - he was a Jedi Master. Where he could control his emotions as a fledgling Jedi he had not progressed at all as a Jedi Master. That's messed up service to his character bud.
    chron wrote: »
    Don't forget that he almost killed Vader, and it took him far longer to come to his senses then than it did with his struggle against Kylo. See? Progress.

    It did not take him longer to come to his senses at all. Like I say, no character progress despite years of experience as a Jedi Master compared to a fledgling young Jedi when we last saw him.
    Boo wrote: »
    No he went to save his friends - killing Vader was not on his agenda, but knew the likelihood was he was going to face him and would not be a match for him. This also speaks to Luke's character about saving his friends and those he cares about - yet he does not care about Han's fate, fate of Leia and the Resistance or the galaxy in TLJ - out of character completely.
    chron wrote: »
    Luke, in part, created Kylo Ren through his own doubt, under his own aegis. What more could he do beyond that, teach him the same thing again? Go to him as Kylo's father did, cuz that worked out so well? The definition of insanity comes to mind.

    Luke closed himself off to the Force, which didn't allow him to foresee Han and Leia and the galaxy's fates, mainly to draw power away from Kylo, without realizing that Rey existed to counter that balance. I've explained this before. Why haven't you taken that into account?

    Yes, Luke partially created Kylo Ren. Instead of taking responsibility for it, he turned tail and ran, like a coward. Obi Wan and Yoda left in order to bide their time for the perfect time to strike back at the Sith. Luke ran to a forgotten plane to live out his days and die. Yes Luke closed himself off from the force, but even when he was told of Han's fate by Rey, Chewie and R2, he still did not care to help.
    Boo wrote: »
    Leia made the choice to not follow Luke and Anakin's path in the ways of the force - she did this with no training etc. Another point to be made here is that TLJ had the opportunity to kill of Leia's character when Fisher had already passed before the film's release - this is yet another a big hole and problematic for her return in any real capacity in E9.
    chron wrote: »
    LUKE: You mean it controls your actions?
    BEN: Partially. But it also obeys your commands.

    What kind of training is required for the Force to take over when preserving one's life? Her glide through space was instinctual, which is what Rey possesses in terms of her abilities. She's just further along the path by being a decades-long survivor.

    And how would killing Leia during that attack have served because Carrie's demise? If Abrams ever had a plan, it's that he stated Leia's necessary involvement in Episode IX: Woke Up, Got Out of Bed, I Dragged a Comb Across My Head. VII was for Han, VIII was for Luke, now it's Leia's turn. That you haven't seen IX doesn't cast a worrisome pall over all of it. That Abrams is a proven horrible closer, does.

    Perhaps the force could have a will of its own to save an untrained force sensitive, but that was pretty powerful stuff compared to what we have seen fully trained masters of the force do, so I don't really buy it.

    Yes JJ had the plan for Han in E7, Luke E8 and Leia E9 - but things change and Carrie Fisher passed before E8's release. You make plans then life happens - John Lennon. You adapt to a new plan. Now we have raw footage to skirt around a legendary character in E9, a character that could have had a fitting send off in E8.

    Boo wrote: »
    We essentially came into the end of the story with Palpatine in the OT - he was already the head of the evil galactic empire which was somewhat explained by Kenobi and then further fleshed out how he grew to power and overthrew the republic in the PT. The lore of the galaxy has been followed by fans for 40+ years - the galactic politics and light over dark was the win in ROTJ. We also know more about the lightsaide and darkside lore and know that palpatine would never have shared power with the likes of Snoke - so for Snoke to pop up out of nowhere without explanation is insulting to the lore of the galaxy as well as the overall story that fans are/were invested in.
    chron wrote: »
    Vendi was speaking of the Rebellion trilogy as it existed in and of itself, not requiring the explanation of an Emperor ruling an Empire. Snoke served the same tertiary function regarding the First Order, but I believe the clues are there already:

    "When he's done with you, he'll destroy you." -- Han Solo, The Force Awakens.

    Snoke needs the heir-apparent of Darth Vader to be more powerful than himself. For what purpose, I give you my previously alluded theory from months ago. Also realize that Snoke and Rey share the same character flaw: they were both wrong about Kylo, which helps to inform his own character's arc as someone different from what expectation purports him to be.

    The early days of the Roman Empire did not have an Emperor, but a Senate. That has nothing to do with the fact that the force and darkside are involved in Star Wars, not like real life. Where the Empire was created by the darkside by a powerful darkside user who is beaten in an epic story, SNoke comes out of nowhere - obviously old and with no back story to cover where he came from. That's just poor writing no matter how you look at it.

    Okay, Snoke wanted to use Kylo's power - perhaps a compelling story could have been fleshed out there too, but it wasn't. Snoke was a big powerful nobody leprechaun, and we will never no where he came from or what his pointless existence was all about.

    Boo wrote: »
    Ok so she was similar with Luke about doing the right thing, even if it means going against your mentor's advice or possible self-harm - where Luke failed in his duel with Vader and had his hand removed, Rey comes out of her skirmish unscathed - interesting...lol
    chron wrote: »
    She got a boo-boo on her right shoulder... SACRIFICE!

    But it only shows how above paygrade she is compared to Anakin and Luke... which again is one of all the reasons why I don't count Disneyfilm as canon. Anakin was and should always represent the apex of the Force, monomythically speaking. The Saga is dead. Long live the Franchise instead.

    I think we both 100% agree here.But how can the franchise continue if it destroys the very pillars upon which it stands?
    Boo wrote: »
    True this is still up for debate. But Johnson wrote TLJ and threw out all the set-ups JJ left for him.
    chron wrote: »
    I assure you, Abrams didn't have a single clue about what he set up. He's Rear Admiral Mystery Box, after all, which is why I worry about him finishing what he started. He's an excellent opener, and a horrible closer (Lost, Cloverfield, Super 8, etc).

    JJ may not have had a clue what he had set up. But he did set stuff up and you said it yourself, "He's an excellent opener". I blame Johnson for taking all of those set ups that really could have taken the story in compelling and interesting directions, but he threw them away and fractured the fanbase as a result. If JJ is a bad closer, Johnson is a terrible middleman.
    Boo wrote: »
    Why was this not done on either Death Star? Han showed in TFA that a ship travelling at lightspeed could pass through a shield that would otherwise protect against laser fire, torpedoes, asteroids - usual bombardment as Gen. Veers would comment on the Rebel's shield on Hoth. So if lightspeed was possible to pass a shield - why wasn't this thought up and weaponized a long time ago - especially when faced with threats like the Death Star or even Starkiller Base itself for that matter?
    chron wrote: »
    Even Han didn't know it would work until it was already done. Why would such a plan ever be tried if no one was that impulsive to risk it? And even after, who would he have told to risk ramming a tiny snub fighter against an entire planet, as if that would make a difference?

    Han didn't know he would be able to pull out of lightspeed in time before colliding with the surface of starkiller base. Flying through the shields at lightspeed was a pretty sure thing.
    Boo wrote: »
    I would take it a step further by saying that the Interdictor Class Star Destroyer employs gravity well generators - the gravity generated stops or pulls ships out of lightspeed. The gravity of Starkiller Base would have done the same thing, thus preventing Han from flying through the shields as he did in TFA. It is unknown how much gravity was being emitted from Snoke's capital ship and possibly Holdo's maneuver could have failed on this point alone.
    chron wrote: »
    "You could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova, and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?" -- Han Solo, A New Hope

    Interdictors are Legend/Expanded lore and barely have anything to do with the movies unless introduced, usually changing said lore when having done so. You'll just have to admit that all the books are made up fluff compared to the real deal: the movies. That's my problem with all the fan nitpicks, and they are merely that: treating a span of lost, tertiary canon as gospel.

    Interdictor class Star Destroyers are cannon, as one was used in Rebels I believe - though not a movie, is still considered cannon. However there is the Solo quote from ANY which contradicts that - so this is clearly a flaw within cannon. Or, Solo was speaking to a farm boy inexperienced with space travel and wanted to say things to give a shock - who knows.
    Boo wrote: »
    So you keep a high ranking person known to act impulsively in the dark about a plan where hundreds of people and ships being killed and destroyed is a part of said plan - and you don't think he may react impulsively about that? Why wouldn't Holdo gather personnel from the other ships leaving the ships to be destroyed to secure a larger escape? None of her plan makes any sense, none at all.
    chron wrote: »
    Except she did gather personnel from the other ships. There were only two ships and two people which were destroyed (and you'd best believe the pilots knew the plan). Remember the line (buried under sound effects, to be sure)...

    MEDICAL FRIGATE OFFICER: The rest of our crew has evacuated and heading your way! It's been an honor, Admiral! Godspeed, Re-!

    ... And that's my only major problem with the movie: the way it delivers vital information in such quickened succession, with heaps of relevant action to follow it, it renders the impetus inorganic. Another draft could've fixed this, but Disney only gave this movie half the production time of a normal Star Wars movie (the result of which is rather impressive to me).

    I do recall that bit now you mention it. You have to forgive me, I have seen TLJ few times and don't really ever want to watch it again.
    Boo wrote: »
    I am not saying parts of it were'nt good if the entire sequence had to be in the movie, but ultimately it was pointless - one of the longest if not the longest star wars movies to date. So much time wasted on Canto-Bite for a plot line that went nowhere, when other and more important plot lines fell short - such as Luke with Rey or even Capt. Phasma who again returns for minimal screen time just to get beaten by Finn - its a joke, a complete joke.
    chron wrote: »
    Canto Bight was meant to serve Finn (realizing something bigger than himself and his slavish dependence to Rey) and Rose's (realizing that something is bigger than her own slavish dependence for legends... Rey's arc as well) character arcs specifically. They were under a time crunch and "didn't come here to free slaves". The fathier escape was meant to aid their own escape.

    Finn's character development was his fear of the first order - which was resolved at the end of TFA, by returning to Starkiller Base to save Rey and even facing off against Kylo with a lightsaber. These new issues and character development of Finn were created by Johnson to serve a purpose for pointless plot line, written by Johnson. It was terrible.
    Boo wrote: »
    Coincidence - written into the story for the sake of story development. Its just bad writing. Few in the entire galaxy had the skills to do what needed to be done and they just bump into one of those few out of an entire galaxy??? C'mon?
    chron wrote: »
    I had once thought that, but an online theory helped make sense of it: Justin Theroux wasn't really the master codebreaker, it was DJ all along. The red plum bloom was the code signifying that DJ was on the planet, but that it was taken from him when he was imprisoned. As far as conincidences are concerned, being trapped in the same cell as DJ is about as far as they go, but then wouldn't that be chocked up to the will of the Force working in mysterious ways? ;)

    I think if a movie relies on hyped up on-line theories as fantastical as that, then the writing of the movie has serious issues. Which TLJ clearly does.
    Boo wrote: »
    I'll give you that - it just seemed like cheap story writing to me rather than something more entertaining such as a mole within the resistance - which would have explained Holdo's secrecy around her plan as well by the way.
    chron wrote: »
    Granted, a mole sidestory would've been apt, but it was more about Poe learning how to be a leader, and Holdo's reluctance to trust him in the interim (she and Leia knew he could be eventually).

    I... I'm out of it for a little while and everybody gets delusions of "MUH FRANCHISE"... :smiley:

    That could have been achieved through a more logical plot, like the discussed mole. Again, this was all too terrible a plot we got.

    Any way, our exchange is getting bigger and bigger and hard to keep up with. Maybe just discuss each point separately if we can, if we need to go on that is, lol.
  • Boo
    3432 posts Member
    chron wrote: »
    Your moment of Zen...


    And now this will be taken as "fan gospel" in 3... 2...1...

    Well it is straight from the horse's mouth.

    There is another video where he says the best result as a director of a movie is having half the audience love it and the other half hate it (I won't post that video as I may get in trouble but its not hard to find on YouTube).

    All in all when you put this and that video together it is clear to anyone Johnson was not the best choice to put at the helm of a franchise newly acquired by Disney at the cost of over $4B. Certainly an unnecessary risk on Disney or Lucasfilm's part for sure.
  • Help us JJ WAN you're our only hope.
    Leader: Grey Area 51 - My Squads: https://swgoh.gg/p/716522998/
  • The Master of Weak Endings in charge of ending the sequel trilogy? I have little faith that it won't just be a rehash of RotJ or just cut-and-paste moments from the OT and PT.
  • Boo
    3432 posts Member
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    The Master of Weak Endings in charge of ending the sequel trilogy? I have little faith that it won't just be a rehash of RotJ or just cut-and-paste moments from the OT and PT.

    The entire ST has been a cut-and-paste from moments of the OT - I am not expecting anything different with E9.
  • DuneSeaFarmer
    2996 posts Member
    edited April 12
    The studio is already preparing for SW9 to not do as good as is hoped. Even Mark H. has made comments about "Star Wars Fatigue" in recent articles (although they could be quoting from other articles from a while back). They are getting their ducks in a row and ready to blame everything but what really happened. The simple truth that cannot be denied is TLJ split the fandom. Now, if those still loyal to the SW story going forward spend enough to cover the lost revenue of those that have lost hope or flat out given up on the franchise then all will be well. If not. blame whomever you want, the board of directors will know otherwise. Best of luck Lucasfilm, you're going to need it.
    Post edited by DuneSeaFarmer on
    Leader: Grey Area 51 - My Squads: https://swgoh.gg/p/716522998/
  • chron
    88 posts Member
    edited April 12
    Boo wrote: »
    chron wrote: »
    Your moment of Zen...


    And now this will be taken as "fan gospel" in 3... 2...1...

    Well it is straight from the horse's mouth.

    There is another video where he says the best result as a director of a movie is having half the audience love it and the other half hate it (I won't post that video as I may get in trouble but its not hard to find on YouTube).

    All in all when you put this and that video together it is clear to anyone Johnson was not the best choice to put at the helm of a franchise newly acquired by Disney at the cost of over $4B. Certainly an unnecessary risk on Disney or Lucasfilm's part for sure.

    Don't you know, especially in this day and age, that context is king? Where's the rest of that video?

    And doesn't the very nature of a "risk" imply the greater chance of failure? Everybody wants Hollywood to take risks without realizing what they're really asking for. It's comical.

  • Vendi1983
    3258 posts Member
    "Take risks! Don't remake ESB/OT!"

    *watches TLJ*

    "Whoa Rian, wth is this? This isn't exactly what I spent 2 years speculating about. Too many risks. Refund! Strike from Canon!"
  • chron
    88 posts Member
    edited April 13
    Boo wrote: »
    Luke had grown since he had faced Vader - he was a Jedi Master. Where he could control his emotions as a fledgling Jedi he had not progressed at all as a Jedi Master. That's messed up service to his character bud.

    It did not take him longer to come to his senses at all. Like I say, no character progress despite years of experience as a Jedi Master compared to a fledgling young Jedi when we last saw him.

    Yes, Luke partially created Kylo Ren. Instead of taking responsibility for it, he turned tail and ran, like a coward. Obi Wan and Yoda left in order to bide their time for the perfect time to strike back at the Sith. Luke ran to a forgotten plane to live out his days and die. Yes Luke closed himself off from the force, but even when he was told of Han's fate by Rey, Chewie and R2, he still did not care to help.

    Perhaps the force could have a will of its own to save an untrained force sensitive, but that was pretty powerful stuff compared to what we have seen fully trained masters of the force do, so I don't really buy it.

    Yes JJ had the plan for Han in E7, Luke E8 and Leia E9 - but things change and Carrie Fisher passed before E8's release. You make plans then life happens - John Lennon. You adapt to a new plan. Now we have raw footage to skirt around a legendary character in E9, a character that could have had a fitting send off in E8.


    The early days of the Roman Empire did not have an Emperor, but a Senate. That has nothing to do with the fact that the force and darkside are involved in Star Wars, not like real life. Where the Empire was created by the darkside by a powerful darkside user who is beaten in an epic story, SNoke comes out of nowhere - obviously old and with no back story to cover where he came from. That's just poor writing no matter how you look at it.

    Okay, Snoke wanted to use Kylo's power - perhaps a compelling story could have been fleshed out there too, but it wasn't. Snoke was a big powerful nobody leprechaun, and we will never no where he came from or what his pointless existence was all about.


    I think we both 100% agree here.But how can the franchise continue if it destroys the very pillars upon which it stands?

    JJ may not have had a clue what he had set up. But he did set stuff up and you said it yourself, "He's an excellent opener". I blame Johnson for taking all of those set ups that really could have taken the story in compelling and interesting directions, but he threw them away and fractured the fanbase as a result. If JJ is a bad closer, Johnson is a terrible middleman.

    Han didn't know he would be able to pull out of lightspeed in time before colliding with the surface of starkiller base. Flying through the shields at lightspeed was a pretty sure thing.

    Interdictor class Star Destroyers are cannon, as one was used in Rebels I believe - though not a movie, is still considered cannon. However there is the Solo quote from ANY which contradicts that - so this is clearly a flaw within cannon. Or, Solo was speaking to a farm boy inexperienced with space travel and wanted to say things to give a shock - who knows.

    Finn's character development was his fear of the first order - which was resolved at the end of TFA, by returning to Starkiller Base to save Rey and even facing off against Kylo with a lightsaber. These new issues and character development of Finn were created by Johnson to serve a purpose for pointless plot line, written by Johnson. It was terrible.

    I think if a movie relies on hyped up on-line theories as fantastical as that, then the writing of the movie has serious issues. Which TLJ clearly does.

    That could have been achieved through a more logical plot, like the discussed mole. Again, this was all too terrible a plot we got.

    Any way, our exchange is getting bigger and bigger and hard to keep up with. Maybe just discuss each point separately if we can, if we need to go on that is, lol.

    1) Growth does not preclude a total aversion to darkness. We all have it in us, no matter how mature we may become. Mace would've turned to the Dark Side had he killed Palpatine. The Jedi Order edged to the Dark Side out of desperation. Luke believed in his own legend (as Rey did), and when he sensed his own apprentice, someone taught in the Light for so many years suddenly turn to the Dark despite Luke's teachings, it triggered Luke even after all that time. Luke didn't grasp any lesson of failure, cutting himself off from the Force before Yoda could teach him.

    2) What more could Luke have done with his own apprentice? Once again, for the billionth time, by turning away from Kylo, Luke thought he was draining his power from the balance, but didn't account for Rey's existence to renew the balance. As for help, at his age, he did what he could on Crait, allowing the Resistance to live on, just like Ben did aboard the Death Star for Leia's escape. Did you really think Luke was just going to grab a laser sword and take on the entire First Order himself? And, according to Hamill, Luke's story isn't over yet.

    3) What plan would have served after Carrie's death? How would Leia's death have served Last Jedi, considering that she was the voice of reason for Poe? Finished (not raw) footage in an unseen film isn't much of a matter of concern.

    4) You're mincing political phrasings. Besides, Star Wars > Rome. And does Snoke come out of nowhere? Is he "old" or just drained? Was he really powerful, or was Kylo more powerful all that time, which is why Snoke needed Kylo in order to transfer Snoke's essence into a stronger body built on legacy. Did Last Jedi have to provide an explanation just as Empire Stikres Back did not for the Emperor? Is "Snoke" really dead? Is his story really over? Is Luke's? Once again, middle-chapter-itis.

    5) By realizing that pillars are all it is standing on and becoming a franchise unto itself. Do you really think every... single... thing that Disneyfilm concocts is going to fit canon to a "t"? I never did when Disneyfilm bought the whole kit-n-kaboodle, and I'm surprised you ever thought they could. This is why I'm able to have fun with it, like back when Marvel Comics decided to introduce telepathic bunny wabbits and giants that save the Rebellion back in the 80s. It's usually when I have to sit through Harvey Korman and Bea Arthur provide a vaudville version of Star Wars that tests my patience, but that's just me.

    6) Openers don't necessarily have long term plans in mind. Abrams introduced ideas, not plans, nothing concrete, nothing answerable outside of their moments, and Johnson made something thematically concrete out of it, if not canonical. Now it's up to Abrams to open his precious Mystery Box world in the midst of Johnson's characters and circumstances, and the whole thing just might fall apart at that point. Because three-toed statue and polar bears and world-ending bunkers. Because savage E.T. that leaves Earth without any consequence. Because Clover just couldn't leave the main characters alone, no matter where they were, because I guess they owed him money... ? Because Abrams.

    7)
    HAN: We're going out of here at lightspeed.
    REY: From inside the hangar? Is that even possible?
    HAN: I never ask that question until after I've done it.

    Han didn't know jack. Flying through planetary shielding was a risk unto itself, let alone pulling out of it at nap-of-earth range. Faith. That's how the Force works, even if Han doesn't know it.

    8) Well, it's Disneyfilm canon. Like I said, not really canon for me. But that's another thing to consider: according to Lucasfilm canon, using gravity wells doesn't stop ships from entering/exiting/flying through hyperspace, it only alerts the hyperdrive sensors to shut off to prevent a collision. Holdo merely turned those off in the Raddus, as a carryover from canon-to-canon perhaps. Only someone insane or desperate would blindly turn those sensors off, even when evading an Interdictor, and she knew what her final destination would be and had a clear line of sight of it.

    9) Finn's fear wasn't resolved in Force Awakens. He went to save Rey due to his puppyish attachment to her, no doubt a virtue instilled in him as part of his First Order indoctrination...

    HAN: Sanitation? Then how do you know how to disable the shields?
    FINN: I don't. I'm just here to get Rey.

    ... just as he would have if Poe was in her place. These are the only people he had ever known to show him kindness (if not initially). He couldn't "save" Poe from the desert sink, so Rey became his new best and only buddy. He only stuck around Starkiller because Rey wanted to help the Resistance attack, and where she goes he follows, then he gets saber-spined, then he wakes up and what's the first thing he asks...

    FINN: Where's Rey?

    Dude is loyal, I'll give him that. He just needed Rose to show him how to expand that loayalty towards the greater good of the galaxy.

    10) But you also link videos regarding online criticisms that support your stance, so....

    11) Holdo's and Leia's reluctance to hand over the reins to Poe in his current Hero-Time state would've been illogical. They needed him to realize his failure on his own. Remember...

    PADME: All mentors have a way of seeing more faults than we would like. It's the only way we grow.

    ... which is an extension of...

    LEIA: Poe, get your head out of your cockpit! There are things you cannot solve by jumping into an X-Wing and blowing something up! I need you to learn that.

    Trust me, the answers are already in Star Wars, even if the slavish adherence to canon isn't. Star Wars is far more than just hyperspace theory or believing in own's own magical hype. At least Disneyfilm is getting that right.

    Post edited by chron on
  • Vendi1983
    3258 posts Member
    edited April 12
    Imagine the blowback if they had methodically gone through the entire ST just doing each film as pure fan-service or speculation-answering. I think the worst thing they did was let JJ have free reign to throw so many unanswered questions towards a ravenous fanbase that bleeds for this universe in Episode 7. If Episode 8 had bothered to try and even start answering all his garbage or all the "demanded" backstory and fill-in-the-thirty-year-gap information from fans it would have wasted half it's probably 3+ hour run time on pure exposition.
  • chron
    88 posts Member
    edited April 12
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    Imagine the blowback if they had methodically gone through the entire ST just doing each film as pure fan-service or speculation-answering. I think the worst thing they did was let JJ have free reign to throw so many unanswered questions towards a ravenous fanbase that bleeds for this universe in Episode 7. If Episode 8 had bothered to try and even start answering all his garbage or all the "demanded" backstory and fill-in-the-thirty-year-gap information from fans it would have wasted half it's probably 3+ hour run time on pure exposition.

    Exactly. The guy sets up bowling pins just fine, but then realizes that he's playing the wrong sport.

    I just now found out from the official site that the big face alien, on Hosnian Prime, looking at Starkiller's beam launching at him was the New Republic Chancellor. Where did he come from? What was his favorite Dejarik piece? Did he have a nickname? What was Johnson supposed to do with all that?
    Post edited by chron on
  • Boo
    3432 posts Member
    chron wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    chron wrote: »
    Your moment of Zen...


    And now this will be taken as "fan gospel" in 3... 2...1...

    Well it is straight from the horse's mouth.

    There is another video where he says the best result as a director of a movie is having half the audience love it and the other half hate it (I won't post that video as I may get in trouble but its not hard to find on YouTube).

    All in all when you put this and that video together it is clear to anyone Johnson was not the best choice to put at the helm of a franchise newly acquired by Disney at the cost of over $4B. Certainly an unnecessary risk on Disney or Lucasfilm's part for sure.

    Don't you know, especially in this day and age, that context is king? Where's the rest of that video?

    And doesn't the very nature of a "risk" imply the greater chance of failure? Everybody wants Hollywood to take risks without realizing what they're really asking for. It's comical.

    Thevideo and the other I mentioned are in context, there's nothing more to say about it.
  • Boo
    3432 posts Member
    chron wrote: »
    1) Growth does not preclude a total aversion to darkness. We all have it in us, no matter how mature we may become. Mace would've turned to the Dark Side had he killed Palpatine. The Jedi Order edged to the Dark Side out of desperation. Luke believed in his own legend (as Rey did), and when he sensed his own apprentice, someone taught in the Light for so many years suddenly turn to the Dark despite Luke's teachings, it triggered Luke even after all that time. Luke didn't grasp any lesson of failure, cutting himself off from the Force before Yoda could teach him.

    Mace's failings against Sidious reflect how the Jedi Order itself had failed and become corrupt at its core principals. The whole point of Luke's growth as a Jedi showed how he surpassed the teachings of the old Jedi. How Obi Wan and Yoda could not believe that Vader could be saved because attachment and love are forbidden emotions - they saw Luke as a weapon to destroy the Sith. However it was the father/son love and attachment that prevailed and saved the day. Luke's new Jedi Order was to be different - this was part of the balance set in motion by the Prophecy of the Chosen One. In TLJ, Luke did not save his friends or family, which was his key principals, this Luke just wasn't Luke at all.

    2) What more could Luke have done with his own apprentice? Once again, for the billionth time, by turning away from Kylo, Luke thought he was draining his power from the balance, but didn't account for Rey's existence to renew the balance. As for help, at his age, he did what he could on Crait, allowing the Resistance to live on, just like Ben did aboard the Death Star for Leia's escape. Did you really think Luke was just going to grab a laser sword and take on the entire First Order himself? And, according to Hamill, Luke's story isn't over yet.

    Luke could have reached out to Ben and tried to stop Snoke's influence. He didn't, insterad he would rather kill him in his sleep. Luke cutting himself off from the force to drain Kylo's power is nonsense spouted by Johnson and his lazy writing. Because there was also Snoke tipping the balance. Luke cutting himself would have or should have limited Snoke's power. At the end of the day this whole balance of light and dark is silly, because it is contradictory to the purpose of Anakin's prophecy brining balance to the force. If the force could truly be balanced this way, then Anakin's very existence was nonsensical.

    3) What plan would have served after Carrie's death? How would Leia's death have served Last Jedi, considering that she was the voice of reason for Poe? Finished (not raw) footage in an unseen film isn't much of a matter of concern.

    Again that whole plot line was silly. Without Leia and a crazy Holdo taking charge, maybe Poe rising on his own to overthrow an incompetent leader was all his plot needed. I don't know how Liea could have died, but it could have been written differently to reflect and respect the characters properly and that entire sub-plot to be honest.

    4) You're mincing political phrasings. Besides, Star Wars > Rome. And does Snoke come out of nowhere? Is he "old" or just drained? Was he really powerful, or was Kylo more powerful all that time, which is why Snoke needed Kylo in order to transfer Snoke's essence into a stronger body built on legacy. Did Last Jedi have to provide an explanation just as Empire Stikres Back did not for the Emperor? Is "Snoke" really dead? Is his story really over? Is Luke's? Once again, middle-chapter-itis.

    Mincing? You were the one who mentioned Empires do not necessarily require an Emperor to lead them. I agreed and pointed out the historical reference to the Roman Empire. If anyone is mincing it appears to be you good sir.

    Yes, Snoke very much so came out of nowhere to lead the First Order. He is old and clearly was around during the time of the Empire to see it rise and fall, as Snoke himself states. He is more powerful than Kylo, or at least is better trained and has better command over the force. Snoke tosses Rey around like a ragdoll and also blasts Kylo with his power - Kylo could not take Snoke head-on, this is why he had to slyly take him down the way he did. Again, The Emperor did not require a backstory in the OT - as we were walking into the middle of his story, him being a leader of an evil empire - but we see how he rose to power in the PT. We know nothing of SNoke - he literally popped out of nowhere and that does no justice or respect to the character of the emperor, or to star wars fans in general.


    5) By realizing that pillars are all it is standing on and becoming a franchise unto itself. Do you really think every... single... thing that Disneyfilm concocts is going to fit canon to a "t"? I never did when Disneyfilm bought the whole kit-n-kaboodle, and I'm surprised you ever thought they could. This is why I'm able to have fun with it, like back when Marvel Comics decided to introduce telepathic bunny wabbits and giants that save the Rebellion back in the 80s. It's usually when I have to sit through Harvey Korman and Bea Arthur provide a vaudville version of Star Wars that tests my patience, but that's just me.

    Disney scrapped the EU as cannon so they were free to do what they wanted in terms of storyline, timeline and characters etc. going forward. Did I expect them to respect the lore of a franchise that has lasted for over 40 years with a loyal fanbase that cost them over $4B - Yes I did and everyone else should have done so as well. You destroy the foundations of anything great - expect it to crumble and fall. That's simple logic. That does not mean they could not do new things - as long as those new things were explained well and/or worked within the confines of already established law within the franchise - they didn't do that either.

    6) Openers don't necessarily have long term plans in mind. Abrams introduced ideas, not plans, nothing concrete, nothing answerable outside of their moments, and Johnson made something thematically concrete out of it, if not canonical. Now it's up to Abrams to open his precious Mystery Box world in the midst of Johnson's characters and circumstances, and the whole thing just might fall apart at that point. Because three-toed statue and polar bears and world-ending bunkers. Because savage E.T. that leaves Earth without any consequence. Because Clover just couldn't leave the main characters alone, no matter where they were, because I guess they owed him money... ? Because Abrams.

    Whether JJ had plans in place or not, he set up crucial story and character questions that had fans excited where things could go. Johnson literally took all of those things and threw them out as rubbish. That not only was bad for the story it upset a lot of fans. Those mystery boxes create a lot of speculation and excitement. Johnson took everyone's excitement for where this trilogy was going and threw it all out as garbage in order to "subvert expectations", lol, NO. What a terrible idea. The fact that the fan base has been fractured since the last jedi shows whatever Johnson did was not in the best interest of the franchise or the fans at all.

    7)
    HAN: We're going out of here at lightspeed.
    REY: From inside the hangar? Is that even possible?
    HAN: I never ask that question until after I've done it.

    Han didn't know jack. Flying through planetary shielding was a risk unto itself, let alone pulling out of it at nap-of-earth range. Faith. That's how the Force works, even if Han doesn't know it.

    The fact that Starkiller Base's shields flickered with enough time for a ship travelling at lightspeed was highly probable for them to get through. The issue was being able to pull out of lightspeed in time within the distance of the shield and the surface - that was the near impossible part . But Han did it, because that's Han's character. Again when weaponizing lightspeed, the object or ship travelling at such speed does not need to stop, because that is the point of the weapon.


    8) Well, it's Disneyfilm canon. Like I said, not really canon for me. But that's another thing to consider: according to Lucasfilm canon, using gravity wells doesn't stop ships from entering/exiting/flying through hyperspace, it only alerts the hyperdrive sensors to shut off to prevent a collision. Holdo merely turned those off in the Raddus, as a carryover from canon-to-canon perhaps. Only someone insane or desperate would blindly turn those sensors off, even when evading an Interdictor, and she knew what her final destination would be and had a clear line of sight of it.

    This sounds logical. But again - why was hyperspace never used as a weapon before? It is lore breaking when comparing to the Death Star or the entire movie of Rogue One - who needs plans to blow the Death Star when a capital ship at lightspeed could have done the job?? Or a frigate against a Super Star Destroyer - it just doesn't make sense at all. All because it was a beautiful scene - which it was beautifully done, it was just lore breaking and that is my point.

    9) Finn's fear wasn't resolved in Force Awakens. He went to save Rey due to his puppyish attachment to her, no doubt a virtue instilled in him as part of his First Order indoctrination...

    HAN: Sanitation? Then how do you know how to disable the shields?
    FINN: I don't. I'm just here to get Rey.

    ... just as he would have if Poe was in her place. These are the only people he had ever known to show him kindness (if not initially). He couldn't "save" Poe from the desert sink, so Rey became his new best and only buddy. He only stuck around Starkiller because Rey wanted to help the Resistance attack, and where she goes he follows, then he gets saber-spined, then he wakes up and what's the first thing he asks...

    FINN: Where's Rey?

    Dude is loyal, I'll give him that. He just needed Rose to show him how to expand that loayalty towards the greater good of the galaxy.

    Again this is all pointless. His fear was of the First Order. How to escape it, run from it and keep them away. He was terrified to the point where he was going to abandon Rey, Solo, and the resistance at the first chance he had. It was because of his attachment to Rey that he faced the First Order head-on. He went to their heart of operations, putting his fear asaide and also faced Kylo Ren in lightsaber combat, because he had grown - his character did not need this "extra development". His character had already grown and come into its own. Which character needed development in TLJ was Rey, Snoke, Luke etc - but apparently not according to Johnson. No we needed to focus half the movie on Finn with new issues and Rose - what a great idea!


    10) But you also link videos regarding online criticisms that support your stance, so....

    Not getting into this, not my choice not to share things that are important.

    11) Holdo's and Leia's reluctance to hand over the reins to Poe in his current Hero-Time state would've been illogical. They needed him to realize his failure on his own. Remember...

    PADME: All mentors have a way of seeing more faults than we would like. It's the only way we grow.

    ... which is an extension of...

    LEIA: Poe, get your head out of your cockpit! There are things you cannot solve by jumping into an X-Wing and blowing something up! I need you to learn that.

    Trust me, the answers are already in Star Wars, even if the slavish adherence to canon isn't. Star Wars is far more than just hyperspace theory or believing in own's own magical hype. At least Disneyfilm is getting that right.

    I disagree - again, Poe's issues are Johnson/TLJ created. He already was a competent leader and without Leia he could have been seen as too young or wqhatever, then crazy incompetent Holdo comes in and almost kills the resistance. Poe could have stood up to her as he did and saved the Resistance, instead of just being some hotheaded ****.

  • Boo
    3432 posts Member
    chron wrote: »
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    Imagine the blowback if they had methodically gone through the entire ST just doing each film as pure fan-service or speculation-answering. I think the worst thing they did was let JJ have free reign to throw so many unanswered questions towards a ravenous fanbase that bleeds for this universe in Episode 7. If Episode 8 had bothered to try and even start answering all his garbage or all the "demanded" backstory and fill-in-the-thirty-year-gap information from fans it would have wasted half it's probably 3+ hour run time on pure exposition.

    Exactly. The guy sets up bowling pins just fine, but then realizes that he's playing the wrong sport.

    I just now found out from the official site that the big face alien, on Hosnian Prime, looking at Starkiller's beam launching at him was the New Republic Chancellor. Where did he come from? What was his favorite Dejarik piece? Did he have a nickname? What was Johnson supposed to do with all that?

    New chancellor was not important. We all \know that the EMpire was defeated and the New Rupublic was formed. The New Republic likely elected a new Chancellor. He did little in the way of adding to the strory and died with billions of other people when Hosnian blew up. Any person could have been the new Chancellor.

    As for Snoke, he took over from Palpatine - who had a thorough storyline and character develpement. Not everyone can command the force, especially not in the way Snoke was able to. So "no one" could step into the Emperor's shoes and command the Empire/First Order - all the more reason Snoke required a story as to where the hec he came from.
  • Snoke's didn't even need much backfilling, just an explanation. I mean, all we really know about Kylo's backstory was that he was the son of Han & Leia, and that is all we really need.
    Other backstories are not terribly important. Finn could be any trooper, his background is unimportant. The important item of note for Poe is that he is an ace pilot; how he got there doesn't matter. Hux could be any rabid, angry tyrant commanding the First Order navy whose backstory is as important as Tarkin's; it means little to the driving theme of the film.
    But Supreme Leader Snoke, Dark Side Force user extraordinaire when we the audience thought we knew who all the important Force users were, and that they were all dead except Luke? Yeah, we need to know where this powerful entity popped up from. Give us something, anything. A two-minute exchange with Hux/Kylo/Phasma where he refers to his development in the Outer Rim Imperial expansion zone would do it.
  • Now I'm thinking, what IS the driving theme of the sequel trilogy? Two films in and I haven't found one yet.
  • Snoke's didn't even need much backfilling, just an explanation. I mean, all we really know about Kylo's backstory was that he was the son of Han & Leia, and that is all we really need.
    Other backstories are not terribly important. Finn could be any trooper, his background is unimportant. The important item of note for Poe is that he is an ace pilot; how he got there doesn't matter. Hux could be any rabid, angry tyrant commanding the First Order navy whose backstory is as important as Tarkin's; it means little to the driving theme of the film.
    But Supreme Leader Snoke, Dark Side Force user extraordinaire when we the audience thought we knew who all the important Force users were, and that they were all dead except Luke? Yeah, we need to know where this powerful entity popped up from. Give us something, anything. A two-minute exchange with Hux/Kylo/Phasma where he refers to his development in the Outer Rim Imperial expansion zone would do it.
    Read: Backstories aren't important unless I say they're important.

  • TarlaBille wrote: »
    Snoke's didn't even need much backfilling, just an explanation. I mean, all we really know about Kylo's backstory was that he was the son of Han & Leia, and that is all we really need.
    Other backstories are not terribly important. Finn could be any trooper, his background is unimportant. The important item of note for Poe is that he is an ace pilot; how he got there doesn't matter. Hux could be any rabid, angry tyrant commanding the First Order navy whose backstory is as important as Tarkin's; it means little to the driving theme of the film.
    But Supreme Leader Snoke, Dark Side Force user extraordinaire when we the audience thought we knew who all the important Force users were, and that they were all dead except Luke? Yeah, we need to know where this powerful entity popped up from. Give us something, anything. A two-minute exchange with Hux/Kylo/Phasma where he refers to his development in the Outer Rim Imperial expansion zone would do it.
    Read: Backstories aren't important unless I say they're important.

    Read: I like to argue to hear myself rant.
  • I'll just keep mentioning that we literally knew nothing about Palpatine for twenty plus years.

    He dissolved the Senate. End of explanation in A New Hope.

    He was a disembodied hologram in ESB.

    Boom - ROTJ shows up and he's shooting lightning out his finger tips and cackling.

    Don't know where he's from. Don't know why he's so powerful. All we know is Vader follows his orders. Up to a definitive point.
  • Boo
    3432 posts Member
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    I'll just keep mentioning that we literally knew nothing about Palpatine for twenty plus years.

    He dissolved the Senate. End of explanation in A New Hope.

    He was a disembodied hologram in ESB.

    Boom - ROTJ shows up and he's shooting lightning out his finger tips and cackling.

    Don't know where he's from. Don't know why he's so powerful. All we know is Vader follows his orders. Up to a definitive point.

    Yes but we know he dissolved the senate and vader fell to the darkside as Palp being his master - so we knew he was crazy powerful with the force - he was the Emperor of the Evil Galactic Empire!

    We then got the PT backstory where we learned of the Jedi and the Sith - how the entire plot - fall of republic and jedi to rise of Sith and EMpire, to fall of Empire and Sith and the rise of the Jedi and new republic - we know all force users and what parts they played that shaped the course of the galaxy for decades and many movies -

    The we get snoke, who pops up out of nowhere and railroads everything - ya, back story to some extent is warranted/required.

    Unless you just want mindless movies that have no sense of story at all.
  • Vendi1983
    3258 posts Member
    Backstory is not warranted/required at all. Just because you're demanding answers to your own questions doesn't mean the filmmakers have to do it.
  • Vendi1983 wrote: »
    I'll just keep mentioning that we literally knew nothing about Palpatine for twenty plus years.

    He dissolved the Senate. End of explanation in A New Hope.

    He was a disembodied hologram in ESB.

    Boom - ROTJ shows up and he's shooting lightning out his finger tips and cackling.

    Don't know where he's from. Don't know why he's so powerful. All we know is Vader follows his orders. Up to a definitive point.

    That's all we needed to know about Palps at the time. And it was sufficient. Then we had a whole trilogy covering how the whole Empire emerged and who the power players were. After six films, we the audience have a firm grasp of how we got here. Six films explaining why Jedi and Sith are so rare. And then a god like Force user pops up to take over the remnants of the Empire. You don't think that merits at least a small explanation? Really?
    I do. And this is just a small part of how TLJ fractured the fan base.
  • Vendi1983
    3258 posts Member
    edited April 16
    How about no explanation of Han and Leia falling apart? C3PO's red arm? Lor San Tekka? I could go on about Episode 7's major story telling faux pas, but apparently all we care about is TLJ here.

    You know Snoke was in The Force Awakens, with no backstory or explanation. Don't blame TLJ for JJ's terrible story telling ability and lack of closure/plan.
  • Boo
    3432 posts Member
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    Backstory is not warranted/required at all. Just because you're demanding answers to your own questions doesn't mean the filmmakers have to do it.

    Ok so lets have a new character come into E9. This person shadows Rey and is the one who kills Kylo restoring the galaxy.

    No need to explain where he comes from because no one needs a backstory ...right?

    Your argument is no argument. For the purpose of continuity, good story, character development, lore of the franchise and lastly down right respect for the invested fans of the franchise, Snoke's backstory is warranted/required - why else do you think Johnson trolled us for 2 years "Your Snoke Theory Sucks"? Because he had no idea. Creating a good villain to rival that of Palpatine in a logical way was too complicated for Johnson to endure - so he just pretended he was nothing and killed him off - "gotcha"!

    NO. This was absolutely terrible. JJ did set up a lot of things, but I bet SNoke was to be of some importance to the story, as well as who he was, if not for Johnson and TLJ.
  • Vendi1983 wrote: »
    How about no explanation of Han and Leia falling apart? C3PO's red arm? Lor San Tekka? I could go on about Episode 7's major story telling faux pas, but apparently all we care about is TLJ here.

    You know Snoke was in The Force Awakens, with no backstory or explanation. Don't blame TLJ for JJ's terrible story telling ability and lack of closure/plan.

    Yes, I would like answers to all those questions. The C3PO red arm thing was silly. Why even bring it up if it isn't a relevant plot point. We never talked about his silver leg and that was fine because it didn't matter. Han and Leia falling apart ... hmmmmm well offhand I would say that their son destroying Luke's academy and murdering everyone in a quest to be more like old granddad put a major strain on their relationship, one that they could not overcome. Lor San Tekka ... yeah where the sand did he get that map and just exactly what is going on around here? That's exactly what we were supposed to find out in TLJ, but instead we got ... whatever we got. Don't blame TLJ and Rian Johnson? I think I will. While we are at it, how about we also blame everyone else involved in making both of these films for the mess we are in.
    Obi-Wan Kenobi was a hero at heart and always embraced the role. Yoda was always the Jedi Zen master. Palpatine was always the cunning antihero out to take over the galaxy. The characters stay true to their ideals. And then they take Luke the underdog, knight of redemption, hero of the rebellion, and break his character by turning him into a coward who thinks to stab his nephew in the back while he sleeps.
    No. It's never going to fly.
  • Vendi1983 wrote: »
    Backstory is not warranted/required at all. Just because you're demanding answers to your own questions doesn't mean the filmmakers have to do it.

    True, they don't. They only need to tell the story if, you know, they want to tell an actual story. If they don't feel like actually telling a story, I don't need to watch their films. Which is where we are now.
    Give the audience a story worth telling, or they just might stop listening.
  • Boo
    3432 posts Member
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    How about no explanation of Han and Leia falling apart? C3PO's red arm? Lor San Tekka? I could go on about Episode 7's major story telling faux pas, but apparently all we care about is TLJ here.

    You know Snoke was in The Force Awakens, with no backstory or explanation. Don't blame TLJ for JJ's terrible story telling ability and lack of closure/plan.

    Yes, I would like answers to all those questions. The C3PO red arm thing was silly. Why even bring it up if it isn't a relevant plot point. We never talked about his silver leg and that was fine because it didn't matter. Han and Leia falling apart ... hmmmmm well offhand I would say that their son destroying Luke's academy and murdering everyone in a quest to be more like old granddad put a major strain on their relationship, one that they could not overcome. Lor San Tekka ... yeah where the sand did he get that map and just exactly what is going on around here? That's exactly what we were supposed to find out in TLJ, but instead we got ... whatever we got. Don't blame TLJ and Rian Johnson? I think I will. While we are at it, how about we also blame everyone else involved in making both of these films for the mess we are in.
    Obi-Wan Kenobi was a hero at heart and always embraced the role. Yoda was always the Jedi Zen master. Palpatine was always the cunning antihero out to take over the galaxy. The characters stay true to their ideals. And then they take Luke the underdog, knight of redemption, hero of the rebellion, and break his character by turning him into a coward who thinks to stab his nephew in the back while he sleeps.
    No. It's never going to fly.

    100%!
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  • Nihion
    2172 posts Member
    I think I’ve cooled down enough to post here.

    I’ve seen the TLJ 2.5 times. I was so excited in the months leading up to it. I mean, the hype was on another level. Of course, my family saw it opening weekend. I went into the movie feeling great, and ready for Star Wars to change forever. At the end of the movie, I was completely and utterly disappointed.

    I was shocked at my feeling of pure distaste with an addition to my favorite franchise of all time. I was not around to see the OT or the prequels in theaters, and I enjoyed the Clone Wars, TFA, and Rogue One dearly. They never failed to intrigue me. So you can imagine my unease at being so let down with my initial viewing of TLJ.

    I had no idea why I didn’t like it. I just couldn’t get a grasp of it. I figured that the new themes and story was beyond me and that you had to be a truly invested fan to enjoy it. I thought it was just me. As it turns out, however, half of the world seemed disappointed as well. And the answers as to why it was so disappointing to some and a wonderful movie to others were widely disputed and ultimately, a mystery. So I went to see the movie again with friends.

    This time, I was a different kind of disappointed. I realized what got me the first time: The overhype. There was too much weight on this movies shoulders after so much marketing, and I was ready for a truly groundbreaking reveal at the end. But the second time, I began to realize just how many theories were shot down, and how lame the movie made the saga look. It felt like seeing an Avengers movie where all the heroes get old and give up. Then a new one strolls in and seems invincible...

    Due to my dislike for the movie as a whole, I picked certain new elements to despise, such as the new characters. I took out my anger on Rose and Holdo, and while I still find Rose as edgy and foolish, Holdo was actually a decent addition. I hated the themes, I hated the planets, I hated the Porgs.

    Naturally, I stayed as far away from the film as I could. It was too much for me to take in. I mean what happens now? How do you fix a broken fan base? So I went and saw Solo, and like every other Star Wars film before TLJ, I came out satisfied and hungry for more. You can chalk this up to my skeptical and low expectations, but overall I really enjoyed the film. Thus, I forgot TLJ and moved on.

    Towards the end of 2018, I found my father on Netflix half way through TLJ. I decided to sit down and give it another chance. To my great surprise, I was less disappointed at the end. Granted, I missed most of the Finn/Rose endeavor and sad Luke, I still came out of it happier than before.

    Now, The Rise Of Skywalker trailer is out. And I’m beginning to appreciate TLJ more and more. Maybe it set up so something greater than itself. Maybe it wasn’t as damaging as I thought. The fan theories are back after a dry spell, and it seems as though we got over the mess.

    So I ask you: How many chances have you given this new trilogy? Does it deserve more than 1? What has it introduced? What will be its legacy? Does it really have that much to do with the first 2 trilogies? Where do we go from here?

    But most importantly: Will we have to be disappointed again to accept the changes that the new film brings? Is that what TLJ was preparing us for? How are my kids, and their kids going to view the saga that happened a long time ago in a galaxy far far away?
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