Star Wars: The Last Jedi Spoiler thread

Replies

  • I can easily say I've watched TLJ more times than I've watched TFA. I've also watched A New Hope more often than TFA since I brought it home on Blu Ray a few years ago.
  • I have appreciated TFA and TLJ for what they were but I see so many missed opportunities. Kylo Ren could have been a very interesting villain but he was never seen a true enemy and was easily beat in two movies. How do you make it interesting in the next one unless you bring another enemy for him to fight as we all know he will not beat Rey as she is the true balance of the Force.

    This next installment is already undoing the last film as Kylo Rens’s mask has been repaired and so has Anakin’s lightsaber. What is next, bring Luke back from the dead?

    I can see the next movie introducing a new villain or bring back one or even a few villains and having Rey and Kylo Ren join forces and defeating them. Maybe even joining together at the end and creating a school to train Force users to use both sides of the Force to bring true balance back to the universe like it was thousands of years before. The School of Skywalker that teaches all of the Force, true grey Jedi so to speak.

  • DuneSeaFarmer
    3039 posts Member
    edited April 26
    Lucasfilm/Disney has said there will be a Hiatus from movies for a while. I figure 3 years. Why? Recently renewed contracts will expire by then lol
    Leader: Grey Area 51 - My Squads: https://swgoh.gg/p/716522998/
  • kalidor
    1785 posts Member
    They'd do well to reflect a bit on the recent films. Solo would have been a great series - perfect for showing his growth from green street urchin to smuggler. Instead they blew it with a lackluster 2h film that gave almost no time to his backstory. I'm all for them backing away from the big screen and focusing on more series.
    xSWCr - Nov '15 shard - swgoh.gg kalidor-m
  • chron
    89 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    Thevideo and the other I mentioned are in context, there's nothing more to say about it.

    They are not complete videos and therefore lack the context needed to do Hamill's statements justice. There's everything more to say about it... if the complete videos are released.

  • chron
    89 posts Member
    Boo wrote:
    Mace's failings against Sidious reflect how the Jedi Order itself had failed and become corrupt at its core principals. The whole point of Luke's growth as a Jedi showed how he surpassed the teachings of the old Jedi. How Obi Wan and Yoda could not believe that Vader could be saved because attachment and love are forbidden emotions - they saw Luke as a weapon to destroy the Sith. However it was the father/son love and attachment that prevailed and saved the day. Luke's new Jedi Order was to be different - this was part of the balance set in motion by the Prophecy of the Chosen One. In TLJ, Luke did not save his friends or family, which was his key principals, this Luke just wasn't Luke at all.


    Luke could have reached out to Ben and tried to stop Snoke's influence. He didn't, insterad he would rather kill him in his sleep. Luke cutting himself off from the force to drain Kylo's power is nonsense spouted by Johnson and his lazy writing. Because there was also Snoke tipping the balance. Luke cutting himself would have or should have limited Snoke's power. At the end of the day this whole balance of light and dark is silly, because it is contradictory to the purpose of Anakin's prophecy brining balance to the force. If the force could truly be balanced this way, then Anakin's very existence was nonsensical.

    Again that whole plot line was silly. Without Leia and a crazy Holdo taking charge, maybe Poe rising on his own to overthrow an incompetent leader was all his plot needed. I don't know how Liea could have died, but it could have been written differently to reflect and respect the characters properly and that entire sub-plot to be honest.

    Mincing? You were the one who mentioned Empires do not necessarily require an Emperor to lead them. I agreed and pointed out the historical reference to the Roman Empire. If anyone is mincing it appears to be you good sir.
    Yes, Snoke very much so came out of nowhere to lead the First Order. He is old and clearly was around during the time of the Empire to see it rise and fall, as Snoke himself states. He is more powerful than Kylo, or at least is better trained and has better command over the force. Snoke tosses Rey around like a ragdoll and also blasts Kylo with his power - Kylo could not take Snoke head-on, this is why he had to slyly take him down the way he did. Again, The Emperor did not require a backstory in the OT - as we were walking into the middle of his story, him being a leader of an evil empire - but we see how he rose to power in the PT. We know nothing of SNoke - he literally popped out of nowhere and that does no justice or respect to the character of the emperor, or to star wars fans in general.

    Disney scrapped the EU as cannon so they were free to do what they wanted in terms of storyline, timeline and characters etc. going forward. Did I expect them to respect the lore of a franchise that has lasted for over 40 years with a loyal fanbase that cost them over $4B - Yes I did and everyone else should have done so as well. You destroy the foundations of anything great - expect it to crumble and fall. That's simple logic. That does not mean they could not do new things - as long as those new things were explained well and/or worked within the confines of already established law within the franchise - they didn't do that either.

    Whether JJ had plans in place or not, he set up crucial story and character questions that had fans excited where things could go. Johnson literally took all of those things and threw them out as rubbish. That not only was bad for the story it upset a lot of fans. Those mystery boxes create a lot of speculation and excitement. Johnson took everyone's excitement for where this trilogy was going and threw it all out as garbage in order to "subvert expectations", lol, NO. What a terrible idea. The fact that the fan base has been fractured since the last jedi shows whatever Johnson did was not in the best interest of the franchise or the fans at all.

    The fact that Starkiller Base's shields flickered with enough time for a ship travelling at lightspeed was highly probable for them to get through. The issue was being able to pull out of lightspeed in time within the distance of the shield and the surface - that was the near impossible part . But Han did it, because that's Han's character. Again when weaponizing lightspeed, the object or ship travelling at such speed does not need to stop, because that is the point of the weapon.

    This sounds logical. But again - why was hyperspace never used as a weapon before? It is lore breaking when comparing to the Death Star or the entire movie of Rogue One - who needs plans to blow the Death Star when a capital ship at lightspeed could have done the job?? Or a frigate against a Super Star Destroyer - it just doesn't make sense at all. All because it was a beautiful scene - which it was beautifully done, it was just lore breaking and that is my point.

    Again this is all pointless. His fear was of the First Order. How to escape it, run from it and keep them away. He was terrified to the point where he was going to abandon Rey, Solo, and the resistance at the first chance he had. It was because of his attachment to Rey that he faced the First Order head-on. He went to their heart of operations, putting his fear asaide and also faced Kylo Ren in lightsaber combat, because he had grown - his character did not need this "extra development". His character had already grown and come into its own. Which character needed development in TLJ was Rey, Snoke, Luke etc - but apparently not according to Johnson. No we needed to focus half the movie on Finn with new issues and Rose - what a great idea!

    Not getting into this, not my choice not to share things that are important.

    I disagree - again, Poe's issues are Johnson/TLJ created. He already was a competent leader and without Leia he could have been seen as too young or wqhatever, then crazy incompetent Holdo comes in and almost kills the resistance. Poe could have stood up to her as he did and saved the Resistance, instead of just being some hotheaded ****.


    1) The Saga's proceedings are clear. What remains to be clear is that Luke believed in his own grandiose legacy so much that someone under his own magnificent tutelage could fall to darkness beneath his legendary auspice. After which, for him to convert someone rejecting his teachings outright is akin to the definition of insanity. And, as stated, by excommunicating from the Force, he thought he was weakening Kylo. Luke had no idea about the First Order until Rey told him, so he wasn't aware of how much trouble his friends were in, and at that point it all sounded like some second-verse-same-as-the-first runaround. This rinse-repeat of destiny, as well as his disbelief of the Jedi way, helped inform him of his own uselessness. He became a broken man.

    2) Luke reached out to Kylo for decades during training and it did no good after all that time. He would go insane trying to keep doing the same thing. It didn't even work for Han...

    LEIA: Luke is a Jedi. You're his father.

    Anakin's prophecy was completely about balance, counteracting the unholy creation that was Sidious. Snoke feared Luke's return so much, that he thought his and Kylo's combined powers could stop Luke. Counterbalancing Luke's power from Kylo's was my own interpretation, not Johnson's. It's the idea that came to me from all the talk about legacy and balance that Luke and Snoke espoused (pretty sure I've said all this before). Therein lies the difference in storytelling: Johnson established paths and possibilities, while Abrams only set up people, places, and things. The former causes the viewer to think while the latter forces the viewer to micromanage.

    3) Holdo and Leia are on the same page: the education of Poe Dameron as the leader of the Resistance. At his current state, he was unreachable, as was Kylo when he turned, as was Luke when he became disillusioned. Holdo's plan required faith from someone who didn't want to hear it, who thought his plans were foolproof - so what if people died, things got done, despite the fact that his victory was Pyrrhic at best. That's not the mark of a true leader, it's the mark of an inhuman terrorist. It was when the Crait cannon was about to fire that he finally realized what was at stake - his friends. He assessed his situation and had more faith in their survival than in the cannon's destruction. Some would see this as a miscalculation, but from his experience, it certainly wasn't.

    4) I said no such thing. I said that Snoke =/= an emperor. At that point, he was merely in charge of his faction, not the galaxy. If you bring up that the opening scroll mentioned anything about the First Order controlling the galaxy, I'd say it contradicts what Rey mentioned to Luke...

    REY: The First Order will control all major systems within weeks.

    ... and since the timeframe and current power play matches what Rey regarded, that's the version I'm going with.

    It was Snoke's arrogance that ultimately caused his death. Kylo knew to take advantage of it when he saw that Rey resisted him at all and in the open. As to the reason why Snoke's backstory doesn't matter is because this story has already been largely told in another trilogy, one that started in the middle of it all and managed to tell enough, but this trilogy's clues are still there. A whithered usurper who needs an army to do his dirty work, deranged with a hero complex of the Sith, and a fascination with balance, as if he's intimate with its necessity. At this point, Occam's Razor starts hitting hard. If Rise of Skywalker's trailer is any indication, my Snoke theory seems to be coming true.

    5) The Expanded Universe was "great"? The fanbase was "loyal"? I wouldn't go that far. Disneyfilm scrapping it was necessary to junk all the convolution of 200+ novels, several videogames, a few cartoons, multiple lines of comics, and other various paraphernilia (all of which never really synched up), to set up their own story department and adhere to Disneyfilm's plan, not Lucas's. Fans should've abandoned ship right then and there, because Disneyfilm realized a while ago (with Alice in Wonderland) that the only thing better than a fanbase is a newer, younger, more disposable fanbase. To ask Disneyfilm to strike Force Lightning in a bottle the way Lucas did was asking the impossible. If fans want to make any real difference, "voting with your dollars" is the worst way to go - money only says "yes" or "no", it never says "why", and conglomerates listen only to Bocce.

    Oh and, so you know offhand, I really don't care about Star Wars "fans". "Fans" care more about "fans" than about their alleged source of allegiance. They actually believe that only they exist, and there's no such thing as a VAST majority casual audience, turning them into armchair crusaders. I care about the Star Wars Saga specifically, so much so that I knew that Disneyfilm could never match up to Lucas's vision, so I don't bother being one of those "fans" who thinks Disney can or should. Only pain and suffering will they find in those recordings. Nothing the Franchise does could ever match the Saga, and that's why I can have fun with their wares. Every time you mention how offended "fans" are will never matter to me, and I hope that's also the case with any filmmaker working on the Franchise, no matter how much they succeed or fail in anyone's eyes, even my own.

    6) Abrams set up details. That's it. They were very entertaining, but still just all Mystery Boxes. Johnson gave those things path and purpose as a sequel should, which were far more necessary than needless exposition, which should've been The Force Awakens's job. I fear that Rise of Skywalker will be all back-track lectures with callback references to give the illusion of Star Wars while stunting its growth. Johnson never "subverted expectations" (an extremely tired complaint if ever there was one), because expectations were the problems with nearly all the characters, and dare I say the fans as well. Johnson was clearly stating that expectations nothing but unremitting, unrealistic demands which are evil and should never be created, adhered, or worshiped, and it's exactly what I've believed all my life. In fact, I was hoping Hollywood would make any movie at all that would explain this truth, but I never believed it come from a Star Wars movie! Good on you, Johnson. Good on you.

    Wait, Johnson "fractured the fan base" which "was not in the best interest of the fans at all"? Which is it? Fracturing alludes to disparate elements which differ from one another, thus our conversation, not to the utter destruction of those elements. Frankly, the "fanbase" was fractured ever since Murder Bears hit the scene, and I couldn't stand the "fanbase" even then.

    7) Han hoped it was probable. That's no certainty. Han only had faith to get through the shields. Remember...

    FINN: I can disable the shields, but I have to be there, on the planet.
    HAN: We'll get you there.
    LEIA: Han, how?
    HAN: If I told you, you wouldn't like it.

    That implies that even he thought it was a bad idea that could work. Being "Han Solo" does not automatically give him carte blanche to survive unscathed or shoot first or anything, or else he wouldn't have ended up with a hollow chest and in the core of a Dyson Sphere. That's the beauty that I saw in his arc: a veteran who survived a galactic war reverts back to his old ways, only to return for one last mission, and that's the one that gets him killed. Had I not heard, for decades, about Ford's insistence of killing off Solo, Han's death actually would've gotten to me. But instead... meh.

    8) Weaponizing lightspeed is and will always be a desperate ploy, not a person, place, or thing to be normalized. Using captial ships in a kamikaze manner whenever anything big shows up is a total Poe move, to the detriment of the crew and possibly the entire fleet needing that captial ship in play. Do all shields operate on the same refractional rate? Would a lightspeed captial ship have destroyed a small moon with its shields up? Too many variables to pin on a tactic so outlandish to normalize it with micromanagement. The Force was with Holdo. Raddus... maybe not.

    You might as well ask why the Falcon didn't just ram Starkiller at lightspeed. Because even Han Solo doesn't believe in his legacy THAT MUCH.

    9) Finn did temporarily turn from Rey and Han indeed, thinking that she was going to be alright in the present, but when the attack happened, his loyal instinct kicked in when his friends were in immediate danger, which led him back to wanting to rescue Rey, which led him to helping disable Starkiller's oscillator, which lead to the saber-spine, which lead to fear, which lead to anger, which lead to hate, which lead to suffering... ah, you get it.

    He didn't all of a sudden grow into a hero because he got to hold a fancy glowrod. He battled Kylo because he thought Kylo was going to kill Rey. Once again, the loyal friend steps up... AND DOWN GOES FINN, OOOO I DON'T CARE WHAT UNIVERSE YOU'RE FROM, THAT'S GOTTA HURT! He wakes up, asks for Rey, and he resumes to who he was pre-coma. He tries to escape the Raddus to intercept Rey. In steps Rose, DJ, and Canto Bight to teach him about being a better hero, aaaaand Luke's yer uncle. That's when his growth took place, so much so that he needed course correcting from his own Hero Complex or else he would've pulled his own Holdo maneuver straight to hell.

    10) Even though they are cherrypicked, subjective viewpoints that are either reactionary for its own sake or deny a greater discussion?

    11) Poe was gung-ho in Force Awakens and is even moreso in Last Jedi mainly because, and I hope this is made clear.... he blew up an entire planet full of bad guys. That's bound to mess with one's ego immensely, even to the point of causing one to believe in one's own legacy. It's the same with Marty McFly: in the first movie, he thwarted the demise of himself and his siblings by restoring his parents' relationship, and after that his ego became so huge that anyone calling him "chicken" would trigger him. Poe was the next in line to be the Resistance leader...

    LEIA: What're looking at me for? Follow him.

    ... and Leia needed him to step up to the task, but he needed to first learn that there are more important things than shooting X-Wings at problems. Finn, Rey, Luke, Rose, Poe, Snoke, and Kylo all fell for the legacy of the Hero Complex, either thinking oneself as important or someone else is automatically greater. That's the beauty of Last Jedi, each character learning that hero worship is a trap.
    Now I'm thinking, what IS the driving theme of the sequel trilogy? Two films in and I haven't found one yet.

    I'm thinking it's "legacy".
    Lor San Tekka ... yeah where the sand did he get that map and just exactly what is going on around here?

    HAN: People who knew him best think he went looking for the first Jedi temple.

    That map came from those people who compiled and handed it to Tekka. It's not exactly Luke's location, it's the exact location of that temple. That's why there's a line along the map. Those researchers backtracked temple history leading all the way back to Act Two... I mean, Ahch-To.
    Obi-Wan Kenobi was a hero at heart and always embraced the role. Yoda was always the Jedi Zen master. Palpatine was always the cunning antihero out to take over the galaxy. The characters stay true to their ideals. And then they take Luke the underdog, knight of redemption, hero of the rebellion, and break his character by turning him into a coward who thinks to stab his nephew in the back while he sleeps.

    Obi-Wan became Ben the hermit. Yoda became Yoda the hermit. They had to abandon the galaxy because they believed in a new hope. Luke had to abandon the Force because he believed in diminishing Kylo's power. They changed and they did what they could with that change. Palpatine never needed to change, because arrogance. Evil never sees a need for change, because it thinks it's always right.
  • chron
    89 posts Member
    LordDirt wrote: »
    I have appreciated TFA and TLJ for what they were but I see so many missed opportunities. Kylo Ren could have been a very interesting villain but he was never seen a true enemy and was easily beat in two movies. How do you make it interesting in the next one unless you bring another enemy for him to fight as we all know he will not beat Rey as she is the true balance of the Force.

    This next installment is already undoing the last film as Kylo Rens’s mask has been repaired and so has Anakin’s lightsaber. What is next, bring Luke back from the dead?

    I can see the next movie introducing a new villain or bring back one or even a few villains and having Rey and Kylo Ren join forces and defeating them. Maybe even joining together at the end and creating a school to train Force users to use both sides of the Force to bring true balance back to the universe like it was thousands of years before. The School of Skywalker that teaches all of the Force, true grey Jedi so to speak.

    1) Well, he was beat in two movies whose timespan indicated a few days. Not much time for growth.

    2) Yeah... yeah. There's... that. MYSTERY BOX!!!!

    3) If Keri Russell's role is what I think it is, I've got a bad feeling about this. Also, phooey on Grey Jedi!
  • chron
    89 posts Member
    kalidor wrote: »
    They'd do well to reflect a bit on the recent films. Solo would have been a great series - perfect for showing his growth from green street urchin to smuggler. Instead they blew it with a lackluster 2h film that gave almost no time to his backstory. I'm all for them backing away from the big screen and focusing on more series.

    Wasn't that movie 2 hours of all backstory? Kinda the point of a prequel.

  • Boo
    3519 posts Member
    chron wrote: »
    Boo wrote:
    Mace's failings against Sidious reflect how the Jedi Order itself had failed and become corrupt at its core principals. The whole point of Luke's growth as a Jedi showed how he surpassed the teachings of the old Jedi. How Obi Wan and Yoda could not believe that Vader could be saved because attachment and love are forbidden emotions - they saw Luke as a weapon to destroy the Sith. However it was the father/son love and attachment that prevailed and saved the day. Luke's new Jedi Order was to be different - this was part of the balance set in motion by the Prophecy of the Chosen One. In TLJ, Luke did not save his friends or family, which was his key principals, this Luke just wasn't Luke at all.


    Luke could have reached out to Ben and tried to stop Snoke's influence. He didn't, insterad he would rather kill him in his sleep. Luke cutting himself off from the force to drain Kylo's power is nonsense spouted by Johnson and his lazy writing. Because there was also Snoke tipping the balance. Luke cutting himself would have or should have limited Snoke's power. At the end of the day this whole balance of light and dark is silly, because it is contradictory to the purpose of Anakin's prophecy brining balance to the force. If the force could truly be balanced this way, then Anakin's very existence was nonsensical.

    Again that whole plot line was silly. Without Leia and a crazy Holdo taking charge, maybe Poe rising on his own to overthrow an incompetent leader was all his plot needed. I don't know how Liea could have died, but it could have been written differently to reflect and respect the characters properly and that entire sub-plot to be honest.

    Mincing? You were the one who mentioned Empires do not necessarily require an Emperor to lead them. I agreed and pointed out the historical reference to the Roman Empire. If anyone is mincing it appears to be you good sir.
    Yes, Snoke very much so came out of nowhere to lead the First Order. He is old and clearly was around during the time of the Empire to see it rise and fall, as Snoke himself states. He is more powerful than Kylo, or at least is better trained and has better command over the force. Snoke tosses Rey around like a ragdoll and also blasts Kylo with his power - Kylo could not take Snoke head-on, this is why he had to slyly take him down the way he did. Again, The Emperor did not require a backstory in the OT - as we were walking into the middle of his story, him being a leader of an evil empire - but we see how he rose to power in the PT. We know nothing of SNoke - he literally popped out of nowhere and that does no justice or respect to the character of the emperor, or to star wars fans in general.

    Disney scrapped the EU as cannon so they were free to do what they wanted in terms of storyline, timeline and characters etc. going forward. Did I expect them to respect the lore of a franchise that has lasted for over 40 years with a loyal fanbase that cost them over $4B - Yes I did and everyone else should have done so as well. You destroy the foundations of anything great - expect it to crumble and fall. That's simple logic. That does not mean they could not do new things - as long as those new things were explained well and/or worked within the confines of already established law within the franchise - they didn't do that either.

    Whether JJ had plans in place or not, he set up crucial story and character questions that had fans excited where things could go. Johnson literally took all of those things and threw them out as rubbish. That not only was bad for the story it upset a lot of fans. Those mystery boxes create a lot of speculation and excitement. Johnson took everyone's excitement for where this trilogy was going and threw it all out as garbage in order to "subvert expectations", lol, NO. What a terrible idea. The fact that the fan base has been fractured since the last jedi shows whatever Johnson did was not in the best interest of the franchise or the fans at all.

    The fact that Starkiller Base's shields flickered with enough time for a ship travelling at lightspeed was highly probable for them to get through. The issue was being able to pull out of lightspeed in time within the distance of the shield and the surface - that was the near impossible part . But Han did it, because that's Han's character. Again when weaponizing lightspeed, the object or ship travelling at such speed does not need to stop, because that is the point of the weapon.

    This sounds logical. But again - why was hyperspace never used as a weapon before? It is lore breaking when comparing to the Death Star or the entire movie of Rogue One - who needs plans to blow the Death Star when a capital ship at lightspeed could have done the job?? Or a frigate against a Super Star Destroyer - it just doesn't make sense at all. All because it was a beautiful scene - which it was beautifully done, it was just lore breaking and that is my point.

    Again this is all pointless. His fear was of the First Order. How to escape it, run from it and keep them away. He was terrified to the point where he was going to abandon Rey, Solo, and the resistance at the first chance he had. It was because of his attachment to Rey that he faced the First Order head-on. He went to their heart of operations, putting his fear asaide and also faced Kylo Ren in lightsaber combat, because he had grown - his character did not need this "extra development". His character had already grown and come into its own. Which character needed development in TLJ was Rey, Snoke, Luke etc - but apparently not according to Johnson. No we needed to focus half the movie on Finn with new issues and Rose - what a great idea!

    Not getting into this, not my choice not to share things that are important.

    I disagree - again, Poe's issues are Johnson/TLJ created. He already was a competent leader and without Leia he could have been seen as too young or wqhatever, then crazy incompetent Holdo comes in and almost kills the resistance. Poe could have stood up to her as he did and saved the Resistance, instead of just being some hotheaded ****.


    1) The Saga's proceedings are clear. What remains to be clear is that Luke believed in his own grandiose legacy so much that someone under his own magnificent tutelage could fall to darkness beneath his legendary auspice. After which, for him to convert someone rejecting his teachings outright is akin to the definition of insanity. And, as stated, by excommunicating from the Force, he thought he was weakening Kylo. Luke had no idea about the First Order until Rey told him, so he wasn't aware of how much trouble his friends were in, and at that point it all sounded like some second-verse-same-as-the-first runaround. This rinse-repeat of destiny, as well as his disbelief of the Jedi way, helped inform him of his own uselessness. He became a broken man.

    2) Luke reached out to Kylo for decades during training and it did no good after all that time. He would go insane trying to keep doing the same thing. It didn't even work for Han...

    LEIA: Luke is a Jedi. You're his father.

    Anakin's prophecy was completely about balance, counteracting the unholy creation that was Sidious. Snoke feared Luke's return so much, that he thought his and Kylo's combined powers could stop Luke. Counterbalancing Luke's power from Kylo's was my own interpretation, not Johnson's. It's the idea that came to me from all the talk about legacy and balance that Luke and Snoke espoused (pretty sure I've said all this before). Therein lies the difference in storytelling: Johnson established paths and possibilities, while Abrams only set up people, places, and things. The former causes the viewer to think while the latter forces the viewer to micromanage.

    3) Holdo and Leia are on the same page: the education of Poe Dameron as the leader of the Resistance. At his current state, he was unreachable, as was Kylo when he turned, as was Luke when he became disillusioned. Holdo's plan required faith from someone who didn't want to hear it, who thought his plans were foolproof - so what if people died, things got done, despite the fact that his victory was Pyrrhic at best. That's not the mark of a true leader, it's the mark of an inhuman terrorist. It was when the Crait cannon was about to fire that he finally realized what was at stake - his friends. He assessed his situation and had more faith in their survival than in the cannon's destruction. Some would see this as a miscalculation, but from his experience, it certainly wasn't.

    4) I said no such thing. I said that Snoke =/= an emperor. At that point, he was merely in charge of his faction, not the galaxy. If you bring up that the opening scroll mentioned anything about the First Order controlling the galaxy, I'd say it contradicts what Rey mentioned to Luke...

    REY: The First Order will control all major systems within weeks.

    ... and since the timeframe and current power play matches what Rey regarded, that's the version I'm going with.

    It was Snoke's arrogance that ultimately caused his death. Kylo knew to take advantage of it when he saw that Rey resisted him at all and in the open. As to the reason why Snoke's backstory doesn't matter is because this story has already been largely told in another trilogy, one that started in the middle of it all and managed to tell enough, but this trilogy's clues are still there. A whithered usurper who needs an army to do his dirty work, deranged with a hero complex of the Sith, and a fascination with balance, as if he's intimate with its necessity. At this point, Occam's Razor starts hitting hard. If Rise of Skywalker's trailer is any indication, my Snoke theory seems to be coming true.

    5) The Expanded Universe was "great"? The fanbase was "loyal"? I wouldn't go that far. Disneyfilm scrapping it was necessary to junk all the convolution of 200+ novels, several videogames, a few cartoons, multiple lines of comics, and other various paraphernilia (all of which never really synched up), to set up their own story department and adhere to Disneyfilm's plan, not Lucas's. Fans should've abandoned ship right then and there, because Disneyfilm realized a while ago (with Alice in Wonderland) that the only thing better than a fanbase is a newer, younger, more disposable fanbase. To ask Disneyfilm to strike Force Lightning in a bottle the way Lucas did was asking the impossible. If fans want to make any real difference, "voting with your dollars" is the worst way to go - money only says "yes" or "no", it never says "why", and conglomerates listen only to Bocce.

    Oh and, so you know offhand, I really don't care about Star Wars "fans". "Fans" care more about "fans" than about their alleged source of allegiance. They actually believe that only they exist, and there's no such thing as a VAST majority casual audience, turning them into armchair crusaders. I care about the Star Wars Saga specifically, so much so that I knew that Disneyfilm could never match up to Lucas's vision, so I don't bother being one of those "fans" who thinks Disney can or should. Only pain and suffering will they find in those recordings. Nothing the Franchise does could ever match the Saga, and that's why I can have fun with their wares. Every time you mention how offended "fans" are will never matter to me, and I hope that's also the case with any filmmaker working on the Franchise, no matter how much they succeed or fail in anyone's eyes, even my own.

    6) Abrams set up details. That's it. They were very entertaining, but still just all Mystery Boxes. Johnson gave those things path and purpose as a sequel should, which were far more necessary than needless exposition, which should've been The Force Awakens's job. I fear that Rise of Skywalker will be all back-track lectures with callback references to give the illusion of Star Wars while stunting its growth. Johnson never "subverted expectations" (an extremely tired complaint if ever there was one), because expectations were the problems with nearly all the characters, and dare I say the fans as well. Johnson was clearly stating that expectations nothing but unremitting, unrealistic demands which are evil and should never be created, adhered, or worshiped, and it's exactly what I've believed all my life. In fact, I was hoping Hollywood would make any movie at all that would explain this truth, but I never believed it come from a Star Wars movie! Good on you, Johnson. Good on you.

    Wait, Johnson "fractured the fan base" which "was not in the best interest of the fans at all"? Which is it? Fracturing alludes to disparate elements which differ from one another, thus our conversation, not to the utter destruction of those elements. Frankly, the "fanbase" was fractured ever since Murder Bears hit the scene, and I couldn't stand the "fanbase" even then.

    7) Han hoped it was probable. That's no certainty. Han only had faith to get through the shields. Remember...

    FINN: I can disable the shields, but I have to be there, on the planet.
    HAN: We'll get you there.
    LEIA: Han, how?
    HAN: If I told you, you wouldn't like it.

    That implies that even he thought it was a bad idea that could work. Being "Han Solo" does not automatically give him carte blanche to survive unscathed or shoot first or anything, or else he wouldn't have ended up with a hollow chest and in the core of a Dyson Sphere. That's the beauty that I saw in his arc: a veteran who survived a galactic war reverts back to his old ways, only to return for one last mission, and that's the one that gets him killed. Had I not heard, for decades, about Ford's insistence of killing off Solo, Han's death actually would've gotten to me. But instead... meh.

    8) Weaponizing lightspeed is and will always be a desperate ploy, not a person, place, or thing to be normalized. Using captial ships in a kamikaze manner whenever anything big shows up is a total Poe move, to the detriment of the crew and possibly the entire fleet needing that captial ship in play. Do all shields operate on the same refractional rate? Would a lightspeed captial ship have destroyed a small moon with its shields up? Too many variables to pin on a tactic so outlandish to normalize it with micromanagement. The Force was with Holdo. Raddus... maybe not.

    You might as well ask why the Falcon didn't just ram Starkiller at lightspeed. Because even Han Solo doesn't believe in his legacy THAT MUCH.

    9) Finn did temporarily turn from Rey and Han indeed, thinking that she was going to be alright in the present, but when the attack happened, his loyal instinct kicked in when his friends were in immediate danger, which led him back to wanting to rescue Rey, which led him to helping disable Starkiller's oscillator, which lead to the saber-spine, which lead to fear, which lead to anger, which lead to hate, which lead to suffering... ah, you get it.

    He didn't all of a sudden grow into a hero because he got to hold a fancy glowrod. He battled Kylo because he thought Kylo was going to kill Rey. Once again, the loyal friend steps up... AND DOWN GOES FINN, OOOO I DON'T CARE WHAT UNIVERSE YOU'RE FROM, THAT'S GOTTA HURT! He wakes up, asks for Rey, and he resumes to who he was pre-coma. He tries to escape the Raddus to intercept Rey. In steps Rose, DJ, and Canto Bight to teach him about being a better hero, aaaaand Luke's yer uncle. That's when his growth took place, so much so that he needed course correcting from his own Hero Complex or else he would've pulled his own Holdo maneuver straight to hell.

    10) Even though they are cherrypicked, subjective viewpoints that are either reactionary for its own sake or deny a greater discussion?

    11) Poe was gung-ho in Force Awakens and is even moreso in Last Jedi mainly because, and I hope this is made clear.... he blew up an entire planet full of bad guys. That's bound to mess with one's ego immensely, even to the point of causing one to believe in one's own legacy. It's the same with Marty McFly: in the first movie, he thwarted the demise of himself and his siblings by restoring his parents' relationship, and after that his ego became so huge that anyone calling him "chicken" would trigger him. Poe was the next in line to be the Resistance leader...

    LEIA: What're looking at me for? Follow him.

    ... and Leia needed him to step up to the task, but he needed to first learn that there are more important things than shooting X-Wings at problems. Finn, Rey, Luke, Rose, Poe, Snoke, and Kylo all fell for the legacy of the Hero Complex, either thinking oneself as important or someone else is automatically greater. That's the beauty of Last Jedi, each character learning that hero worship is a trap.
    Now I'm thinking, what IS the driving theme of the sequel trilogy? Two films in and I haven't found one yet.

    I'm thinking it's "legacy".
    Lor San Tekka ... yeah where the sand did he get that map and just exactly what is going on around here?

    HAN: People who knew him best think he went looking for the first Jedi temple.

    That map came from those people who compiled and handed it to Tekka. It's not exactly Luke's location, it's the exact location of that temple. That's why there's a line along the map. Those researchers backtracked temple history leading all the way back to Act Two... I mean, Ahch-To.
    Obi-Wan Kenobi was a hero at heart and always embraced the role. Yoda was always the Jedi Zen master. Palpatine was always the cunning antihero out to take over the galaxy. The characters stay true to their ideals. And then they take Luke the underdog, knight of redemption, hero of the rebellion, and break his character by turning him into a coward who thinks to stab his nephew in the back while he sleeps.

    Obi-Wan became Ben the hermit. Yoda became Yoda the hermit. They had to abandon the galaxy because they believed in a new hope. Luke had to abandon the Force because he believed in diminishing Kylo's power. They changed and they did what they could with that change. Palpatine never needed to change, because arrogance. Evil never sees a need for change, because it thinks it's always right.

    Sorry, but I don't concede to any of your major points and with logical reasoning. I think we just have to agree to disagree with a lot of that stuff. I cant keep going back and forth with you on it, we are writing novels, lol
  • @chron why so much writing 😁
    This is... SPARTAAAAAAA
  • Thought about Reys lineage. Padme wore her hair in 1 bun. Leia 2, Rey 3. Funny that.. lol
    Leader: Grey Area 51 - My Squads: https://swgoh.gg/p/716522998/
  • Thought about Reys lineage. Padme wore her hair in 1 bun. Leia 2, Rey 3. Funny that.. lol

    This is the most solid evidence since Rey's blaster face.... which means Luke and Leia are Reys parents? :#
  • Boo
    3519 posts Member
    Thought about Reys lineage. Padme wore her hair in 1 bun. Leia 2, Rey 3. Funny that.. lol

    This is the most solid evidence since Rey's blaster face.... which means Luke and Leia are Reys parents? :#

    I've said this (jokingly before). Luke loved Leia and she him before they knew they were siblings, they even kissed several times.

    Perhaps they had an affair, not unheard of if you watch Game of Thrones, lol.

    With their union (each Luke and Leia representing half Anakin and half Padme) Rey would have a stronger blood line to the Skywalker lineage than Kylo would, which would explain why she beats him time and time again.

    Perhaps Han found out and this was the real reason he and Leia broke up?
  • The Skywalker Saga ending most likely points to Rey either dying, or she is NOT a Skywalker. Daisy has said she is not interested in the role of Rey past SW9. She said "Maybe in 30 years if we aren't all living in caves, maybe". So it could follow Rey is killed off or just forgotten. I actually hope she is NOT a Skywalker. It needs to end.
    Leader: Grey Area 51 - My Squads: https://swgoh.gg/p/716522998/
  • Boo
    3519 posts Member
    The Skywalker Saga ending most likely points to Rey either dying, or she is NOT a Skywalker. Daisy has said she is not interested in the role of Rey past SW9. She said "Maybe in 30 years if we aren't all living in caves, maybe". So it could follow Rey is killed off or just forgotten. I actually hope she is NOT a Skywalker. It needs to end.

    In 30 years they could follow-up with Rey and she can be a cranky hermit not caring if Fin is killed and drinks sea cow milk, cuts herself off from the force and kills herself - watch all TLJ lovers get upset with that one, lol

    Karma.
  • New question: What if ALL the Star Wars Movies had Rogue One's edge? There wasn't always a happily ever after each movie? Not debating they were good or bad, just what if?
    Leader: Grey Area 51 - My Squads: https://swgoh.gg/p/716522998/
  • Tbirds01
    1235 posts Member
    New question: What if ALL the Star Wars Movies had Rogue One's edge? There wasn't always a happily ever after each movie? Not debating they were good or bad, just what if?

    @DuneSeaFarmer that’s why rouge one was so powerful imo, it had hope at the end, but many main characters died. It wasn’t an impossible fairytale, it felt more real.
    Tag me if you reply to my comment so I know I should answer you!😀 My roster: https://swgoh.gg/p/842694912/
  • DuneSeaFarmer
    3039 posts Member
    edited May 19
    Tbirds01 wrote: »
    New question: What if ALL the Star Wars Movies had Rogue One's edge? There wasn't always a happily ever after each movie? Not debating they were good or bad, just what if?

    @DuneSeaFarmer that’s why rouge one was so powerful imo, it had hope at the end, but many main characters died. It wasn’t an impossible fairytale, it felt more real.

    Yep, in many ways (nothing against the rest) it's my favorite movie.
    But given the drama it's not one I will learn the lines backwards and forwards from re-watching it. Still it had that WW2 feel, the resistance fighters. When Chiruut dies, the pain was evidenced on Baze's face "Don't go, please, don't go.." "Look for the force, and you will always find me". Heart wrenching.
    Leader: Grey Area 51 - My Squads: https://swgoh.gg/p/716522998/
  • Tbirds01
    1235 posts Member
    Yes, a very sad part. I also like the standalone feel to it, you can watch it without feeling like you need to watch the next one soon. It felt more like a real war or battle, because their was actually death.
    Tag me if you reply to my comment so I know I should answer you!😀 My roster: https://swgoh.gg/p/842694912/
  • DuneSeaFarmer
    3039 posts Member
    edited May 20
    Tbirds01 wrote: »
    Yes, a very sad part. I also like the standalone feel to it, you can watch it without feeling like you need to watch the next one soon. It felt more like a real war or battle, because their was actually death.

    I had the same feeling actually when I finally started watching "Rebels" TV show. Okay, animated I wasn't too excited, but I noticed when Ezra threw a grenade the Stormies didn't get up dazed and walk away, they died. I was surprised and drawn in. It was animated but more real somehow.

    And of course lest we forget.. (scene from final season of Rebels)
    0no4sebbixpb.png
    Post edited by DuneSeaFarmer on
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  • chron
    89 posts Member
    Boo wrote:
    Sorry, but I don't concede to any of your major points and with logical reasoning. I think we just have to agree to disagree with a lot of that stuff. I cant keep going back and forth with you on it, we are writing novels, lol

    Well, let's just chok it up to this: Rise of Skywalker has me worried, so we may be in the same hate boat eventually, albeit different decks.
    Dinotank46 wrote:
    @chron why so much writing 😁

    Me want be writer. With wordthings and stuff. :D
    Boo wrote: »
    In 30 years they could follow-up with Rey and she can be a cranky hermit not caring if Fin is killed and drinks sea cow milk, cuts herself off from the force and kills herself - watch all TLJ lovers get upset with that one, lol

    Karma.

    More likely, they'll say "SIMPSONS DID IT!". bart_mooning.gif



  • I am concerned too. This could “blind us forever,” as Palpatine says, if they screw this up.
  • Iceninja wrote: »
    I am concerned too. This could “blind us forever,” as Palpatine says, if they screw this up.

    Enter with no expectations, then you cannot be disappointed.
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  • Nihion
    2227 posts Member
    Iceninja wrote: »
    I am concerned too. This could “blind us forever,” as Palpatine says, if they screw this up.

    Enter with no expectations, then you cannot be disappointed.

    I think this is why I loved Solo
  • Boo
    3519 posts Member
    Iceninja wrote: »
    I am concerned too. This could “blind us forever,” as Palpatine says, if they screw this up.

    Enter with no expectations, then you cannot be disappointed.

    You don't have to have expectations to be disappointed with the absolute **** they making into modern star wars movies - poop is poop.


  • More likely, they'll say "SIMPSONS DID IT!". bart_mooning.gif



    [/quote]

    To be fair, what haven't the Simpsons done yet? lol
  • Hi
  • Nihion
    2227 posts Member
    commish44 wrote: »
    Hi

    ...

    Hello?
  • chron
    89 posts Member
    New question: What if ALL the Star Wars Movies had Rogue One's edge? There wasn't always a happily ever after each movie? Not debating they were good or bad, just what if?

    The only Saga movies to have happy endings are A New Hope and Return of the Jedi. The others' were either bittersweet or deviously "happy".
  • chron wrote: »
    New question: What if ALL the Star Wars Movies had Rogue One's edge? There wasn't always a happily ever after each movie? Not debating they were good or bad, just what if?

    The only Saga movies to have happy endings are A New Hope and Return of the Jedi. The others' were either bittersweet or deviously "happy".

    Lot of people died blowing up the Death Star in ANH.
    Luke wasnt too happy his father died in RotJ.
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