Was TLJ the Right Step for the Franchise?

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  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    No, the movie divorced itself and detracted from the Star Wars Legacy
    I actually really liked Force Awakens. But The Last Jedi just seemed off. I hated all most of the attempts at humor. Luke just did not seem like Luke at all. Which I guess since everything that happened maybe he's changed so much. But I'm fine with a woman lead role. I also really like how Finn was a storm trooper, i've always been a fan of the clone troopers and storm troopers.

    I liked TFA, but didn't like that it stayed too close tot he plot of ANH. I felt it essentially gave us nothing new to think about or appreciate.

    TLJ certainly broke the mold and gave us something to think about but not in a positive fashion by any means.

    I was excited where TFA was going to lead - yes it played itself safe in its plot, but had cool setups:

    * How was Anakin's lightsaber recovered?
    * Who is Rey's parents/lineage
    * Where did Snoke come from - how did he co-exist with Palpatin in the same galaxy - where Palpatine does not "share" power
    * Who are the knights of Ren?
    * How did Kylo fall to the dark side?

    Many of these plots were ignored by Johnson.

    I was excited that the Force Awakening was not meant for just Rey - we had Finn, the only stormtrooper to break his brain washing. I thought the force awakening would have worked better if multiple force sensitives awakened to the call of the force. Perhaps all of them together would have been powerful enough to stop Kylo and Snoke - none of this transpired.

    I was eager for a Jedi Female lead - excited even! In the EU we had characters like Mara Jade r Ahsoka Tano - what we got in this new trilogy was a poorly written character who is overpowered for the sake of gender. Rey is boring, so boring.

    So many excellent possibilities they could have gone with this new trilogy and they tanked it!
  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    No, the movie divorced itself and detracted from the Star Wars Legacy
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    TLJ didn't divorce or distract from Star Wars legacy - it destroyed it and even killed it as it felt it had to.

    At the end of the day, Kennedy gave a promise to preserve and respect the characters Lucas created - she didn't. Her and Johnson insured that those characters are humiliated and destroyed.

    * Han was killed by his emo child son;
    * Luke drinks green milk from an alien tit and is no longer the Luke Skywalker we all know - he wasn't "preserved or respected"; and then
    * Leia - was given little to do and when she is killed off she returns to life by acting ,like Mary Poppins flying through space.

    I get Disney wanting their new characters to shine - just write better characters. Also if they wanted to really change star wars, do so in a different era that doesn't destroy Lucas' OT toons, like Kennedy promised not to do.

    I think taking the Jedi in a grey (light & dark) direction is good, but Johnson fell short of that compared to what was hinted in the trailers. In reality Luke doesn't want the Jedi to die - he just wants the force to die. Kylo remains dark while Rey perseveres and stay light true to the Jedi. There is no struggle between light and dark - only what we see from Kylo - who ultimately stays bad.

    So the last jedi didn't really risk anything or change anything - it just took a big poop on everything and we are all supposed to like it.

    The Luke drinking green milk thing I'll give you, but I don't understand why people are so upset about the Leia thing. Was it a bit cheesy, yes, but all SW movies have cheesy moments. And Han's death scene was incredible IMO.

    Luke doesn't want the force to die. He wants it to stop being wielded for evil. The whole purpose of this story line is that even the most powerful force wielder in the galaxy has become disillusioned with its ability to bring peace because no matter what he does that feels "right" it always turns into evil returning to power. In a sense, he becomes a pacifist. The Force will do its will and it's not right for an individual to try and bend that will toward their purposes, no matter how righteous. In the end, he returns to "if good people do nothing evil prevails."

    I don't like the way that Luke was portrayed. I'm an OT fanboi and it hurt to see a broken Luke on screen. But in the end, I think it will be best for the franchise. They no longer need to hold onto legacy themes and are able to take it whatever direction they choose. Han, Leia, and Luke were made mortal which is both sad to me, but true to humanity in general.

    Han's death I didn't really mind to be honest. Ford was wanting Solo to be killed off for ages anyway. He got his wish at the hands of his Darkside son - fair enough. I just wished this act should have turned Kylo into a ruthless evil character - but he was still struggling with the light (when faced the opportunity to kill leia) in TLJ, so in the end I felt Solo's "sacrifice" was pretty pointless - I guess just another jab from Johnson.

    Leia's Mary Poppins was beyond ridiculous compared to anything we have ever seen in star wars. I almost don't mind jar jar in comparison. This was absolutely pointless - especially as Carrie Fisher passed away - why bring her character back, especially as this could have been tweaked, as Carrie passed away before the film's release. They could have killed her off and save Luke instead for E9 - giving Luke's character more depth, IDK, they didn't - another jab from Johnson.

    Luke - no one argues against the green milk thing. But that wasn't as bad as his overall character. Kennedy promised to preserve and respect Lucas' characters as we know them - we did not get a Luke we all know in TLJ. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but lets look at the luke we do know:

    ANH - Luke dives into the detention area of the death Star (at own personal risk) to save a princess he doesn't even know - because its the right thing to do!

    ESB - Luke goes against the wise guidance of Obi Wan and Yoda and abandons his training to save his friends, again at his own personal risk and again, because it is the right thing to do.

    ROTJ - Luke leaves his friends to end the Sith threat - he believes in the redemption of his Sith Lord father, a father he does not know who has murdered countless people. He does so because it is the right thing to do.

    TLJ - Luke decides to murder his nephew to prevent a possible future - yes he stopped himself, but he never wanted to murder his Sith Lord father, but felt justified to do this to a nephew he has known all his life, and in his sleep no less?!!! This was not the right thing to do

    Luke then abandons his friends, the galaxy to the mercy and tyranny of the first order (this is not the right thing to do). Despite Han being killed - he still does not care.

    Luke does want the force (maybe not die) but never be used. He hides away like a coward and cuts even himself off from the force.

    None of this is the Luke Skywalker we knew.

    Abrams also left TFA with Luke standing on a cliff dressed in his Jedi robes - Johnson comes along, destroys the anticipated reconnection with lightsaber scene and has luke run away to immediately change into his dark rain coat - why was he dressed in his Jedi robes to begin with??? - this is yet another jab from Johnson.

    What Luke would we have had if Abrams directed all 3 ST movies?

    I am all for taking star wars in a new direction - Johnson can do that with his new trilogy (although I hope he gets fired from that project). This could be done in a different era, with a different take on the force and the lore of the galaxy - You don't have to destroy beloved characters to do so.

    It was entirely possible for the OT characters to be respected and preserved while passing the torch over to the new generation - that is expected - but what we got was a knife in the back from Kennedy (her promise to Lucas) and destruction of beloved characters. Characters this saga was built on!

    This saga also makes all star wars movies pointless - what were they all fighting for in the first place???

    there are so many things wrong with this new trilogy and movies it is impossible to put all in one post - the above is only covering some of the misuse of the original characters.

    Abrams has a lot of work to do, if there is any hope of salvaging this franchise.

    We're not disagreeing on the Luke thing. Again, the character arc doesn't follow what I know and loved about him. The movie itself is an interesting story. Artists try to be edgy, and this attempt obviously didn't connect with one of the most beloved characters in any movie series. I don't interpret it as a knife in the bank, but rather a miscalculation. It didn't bring us any closer to the humanity of Luke, all it did was make him mortal, which isn't going to endear the movie to its most ardent fan base.

    I personally liked that they incorporated Leia's force sensitivity, but that's just a personal preference, so I didn't mind the Mary Poppins scene. It is what it is. Not everyone is going to agree on this and I'm ok with that.

    My personal opinion is that as a stand alone trilogy, it was a good second movie that opens up a lot of possibilities. As an ardent OT fan, I was left a bit disheartened by how they shaped Luke's story. It doesn't in any way reshape my thoughts about the Star Wars universe. It's a sci-fi battle of good versus evil that tries to tackle the complexities of war.

    Luke didn't need to be shown as mortal - he already was. He struggled in the original trilogy. Learning his connection to the jedi and to one of the greatest - Anakin Skywalker! He trained hard and failed multiple times. He had his hand cut off by his own father! - we saw him overcome his struggles and show curage and determination for himself and bravery for those he cares about at the risk of his own demise!

    He is a loser in TLJ - nothing more than that. He's like "The Dude" from the Big Lebowski!

    I would have hoped to have seen Leia in a more jedi role - but turning her into Mary Poppins is just bad, so bad!
  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    No, the movie divorced itself and detracted from the Star Wars Legacy
    I actually really liked Force Awakens. But The Last Jedi just seemed off. I hated all most of the attempts at humor. Luke just did not seem like Luke at all. Which I guess since everything that happened maybe he's changed so much. But I'm fine with a woman lead role. I also really like how Finn was a storm trooper, i've always been a fan of the clone troopers and storm troopers.

    Most people are fine with the lead role being female - what we got was a poorly written character, with no depth, no struggle and no relativity with the audience. What we got was a boring character. I would say the same thing if Rey were a blonde haired, blue eyed, white male - the character is just far too boring and its a shame because they could have made her great!
  • No, the movie divorced itself and detracted from the Star Wars Legacy
    Boo wrote: »
    I actually really liked Force Awakens. But The Last Jedi just seemed off. I hated all most of the attempts at humor. Luke just did not seem like Luke at all. Which I guess since everything that happened maybe he's changed so much. But I'm fine with a woman lead role. I also really like how Finn was a storm trooper, i've always been a fan of the clone troopers and storm troopers.

    Most people are fine with the lead role being female - what we got was a poorly written character, with no depth, no struggle and no relativity with the audience. What we got was a boring character. I would say the same thing if Rey were a blonde haired, blue eyed, white male - the character is just far too boring and its a shame because they could have made her great!

    Rey is an incredibly boring character who overcomes everything thrown at her with ease. There’s no struggle, no growth, and nothing to look forward to. The only way to defend such a horribly written character is to say that the fans are sexist for criticizing her, which is so weak and misplaced.
  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    No, the movie divorced itself and detracted from the Star Wars Legacy
    Boo wrote: »
    I actually really liked Force Awakens. But The Last Jedi just seemed off. I hated all most of the attempts at humor. Luke just did not seem like Luke at all. Which I guess since everything that happened maybe he's changed so much. But I'm fine with a woman lead role. I also really like how Finn was a storm trooper, i've always been a fan of the clone troopers and storm troopers.

    Most people are fine with the lead role being female - what we got was a poorly written character, with no depth, no struggle and no relativity with the audience. What we got was a boring character. I would say the same thing if Rey were a blonde haired, blue eyed, white male - the character is just far too boring and its a shame because they could have made her great!

    Rey is an incredibly boring character who overcomes everything thrown at her with ease. There’s no struggle, no growth, and nothing to look forward to. The only way to defend such a horribly written character is to say that the fans are sexist for criticizing her, which is so weak and misplaced.

    Exactly!!! - why do so many people fail to see this?, its beyond me.
  • Teague
    939 posts Member
    Why didn't they take the first cruiser as it was running low on gas and kamikaze it into the FO. Then the 2nd one could have escaped entirely.

    It's glaring plot holes like this that make me hate TLJ. Every single character, good and bad, seemed like completely incompetent fools. Poe was the only one acting logically, and they spent 90% of the movie admonishing him for it.
  • No, the movie divorced itself and detracted from the Star Wars Legacy
    I think Rey could have had an excellent story. From Jaku waiting for her parents to return, but no they threw all of that down the drain that her parents were just junkers and sold her (although that could possibly not be true. Kylo says they are buried on Jakku but they are clearly flying away from Jakku unless they returned and didn't tell her).

    I think the other part is her finding her place in the galaxy/balance of the force. Which again they do in an awful way. She has those visions with the lightsabe in TFA, then just trains and bam becomes good instantly in TLJ.

    A lot of bad decisions, which is very unfortunate. But I wouldn't extend my hate for Rey (Daisy), rather just disappointed in the directors/writers choices.
  • NicWester
    8928 posts Member
    Yes, the movie built on and improved the legacy of Star Wars
    Should add age to the poll. I bet 99% of those that like TLJ are under 30

    I’m 35, I loved it. But even if I was 22, who cares? You say “under 30” like it’s a bad thing.
    Ceterum censeo Patientia esse meliat.
  • No, the movie divorced itself and detracted from the Star Wars Legacy
    Boo wrote: »
    I actually really liked Force Awakens. But The Last Jedi just seemed off. I hated all most of the attempts at humor. Luke just did not seem like Luke at all. Which I guess since everything that happened maybe he's changed so much. But I'm fine with a woman lead role. I also really like how Finn was a storm trooper, i've always been a fan of the clone troopers and storm troopers.

    Most people are fine with the lead role being female - what we got was a poorly written character, with no depth, no struggle and no relativity with the audience. What we got was a boring character. I would say the same thing if Rey were a blonde haired, blue eyed, white male - the character is just far too boring and its a shame because they could have made her great!

    Rey is an incredibly boring character who overcomes everything thrown at her with ease. There’s no struggle, no growth, and nothing to look forward to. The only way to defend such a horribly written character is to say that the fans are sexist for criticizing her, which is so weak and misplaced.

    That’s exactly why I didn’t like TFA because she was able to overcome everything with no adversity. TLJ was just as bad because of them forcing characters that didn’t help the story and that they have no backstory.
  • Yes, the movie built on and improved the legacy of Star Wars
    Not everyone had to need a great backstory. Remember Anakin? His mother is nobody, only a slave on Tatooine but the Force chose her to give birth to the Chosen One...Luke had a great backstory, he is the son of the Sith Lord Darth Vader but in the end is not him that destroys the Sith, and Kenobi...hello there he didn't had a clear backstory, and we loved how he became one of the most important character in the saga, the same goes for Han Solo.

    So we didn't need Rey to be a daughter of some of the movie greats (Skywalker, Kenobi, etc), because everyone can be a hero even if their ancestors is nobodies or not important, the same goes with Kenobi, Yoda, Han Solo, Ezra, etc
  • No, the movie divorced itself and detracted from the Star Wars Legacy
    Not everyone had to need a great backstory. Remember Anakin? His mother is nobody, only a slave on Tatooine but the Force chose her to give birth to the Chosen One...Luke had a great backstory, he is the son of the Sith Lord Darth Vader but in the end is not him that destroys the Sith, and Kenobi...hello there he didn't had a clear backstory, and we loved how he became one of the most important character in the saga, the same goes for Han Solo.

    So we didn't need Rey to be a daughter of some of the movie greats (Skywalker, Kenobi, etc), because everyone can be a hero even if their ancestors is nobodies or not important, the same goes with Kenobi, Yoda, Han Solo, Ezra, etc

    You are right, not so many SW character has a backstorie, but the main complain agains Rey, is that she is more powerful than the "older" jedi but without any force training. She is good melee fighter, it's acceptable, but she has no teaching about the force, and able to make mind trick, telekinesis, etc.
  • NicWester
    8928 posts Member
    Yes, the movie built on and improved the legacy of Star Wars
    Fürkész wrote: »
    Not everyone had to need a great backstory. Remember Anakin? His mother is nobody, only a slave on Tatooine but the Force chose her to give birth to the Chosen One...Luke had a great backstory, he is the son of the Sith Lord Darth Vader but in the end is not him that destroys the Sith, and Kenobi...hello there he didn't had a clear backstory, and we loved how he became one of the most important character in the saga, the same goes for Han Solo.

    So we didn't need Rey to be a daughter of some of the movie greats (Skywalker, Kenobi, etc), because everyone can be a hero even if their ancestors is nobodies or not important, the same goes with Kenobi, Yoda, Han Solo, Ezra, etc

    You are right, not so many SW character has a backstorie, but the main complain agains Rey, is that she is more powerful than the "older" jedi but without any force training. She is good melee fighter, it's acceptable, but she has no teaching about the force, and able to make mind trick, telekinesis, etc.

    And Anakin was more powerful than the older jedi without any training, too, that's why Qui-Gon was so insistent on getting him trained and the grandmasters were so insistent he didn't.

    Come on, people, he literally got his powers from Space Jesus.
    Ceterum censeo Patientia esse meliat.
  • Fürkész
    211 posts Member
    edited June 2018
    No, the movie divorced itself and detracted from the Star Wars Legacy
    NicWester wrote: »
    Fürkész wrote: »
    Not everyone had to need a great backstory. Remember Anakin? His mother is nobody, only a slave on Tatooine but the Force chose her to give birth to the Chosen One...Luke had a great backstory, he is the son of the Sith Lord Darth Vader but in the end is not him that destroys the Sith, and Kenobi...hello there he didn't had a clear backstory, and we loved how he became one of the most important character in the saga, the same goes for Han Solo.

    So we didn't need Rey to be a daughter of some of the movie greats (Skywalker, Kenobi, etc), because everyone can be a hero even if their ancestors is nobodies or not important, the same goes with Kenobi, Yoda, Han Solo, Ezra, etc

    You are right, not so many SW character has a backstorie, but the main complain agains Rey, is that she is more powerful than the "older" jedi but without any force training. She is good melee fighter, it's acceptable, but she has no teaching about the force, and able to make mind trick, telekinesis, etc.

    And Anakin was more powerful than the older jedi without any training, too, that's why Qui-Gon was so insistent on getting him trained and the grandmasters were so insistent he didn't.

    Come on, people, he literally got his powers from Space Jesus.

    No. Anakin was a padawan first, learned all the force techniques from Yoda, Kenobi, etc. not autodidactic way during a few day like Rey did. In Anakin just the potencial was gigantic, at age 9 he was just a boy with great reflexes.
  • DuneSeaFarmer
    3525 posts Member
    edited June 2018
    No, the movie divorced itself and detracted from the Star Wars Legacy
    I have sat and read, and wandered the net watching and reading. I have found the majority of the Fans are not upset that a female was the star/focus. I think the majority of us are on the same page there. With a 9 year old in our house, I am all for giving her positive imagery. The failing of TLJ was the writing, or lack of it. The pace was rushed and sloppy. It's like a fan fic. RJ has said we need to read the book, it fills in the gaps. Well should we skip the next movie and just read the book? Certainly cheaper. JJ had a story arc mapped out, it was tossed. Now they expect him to save the ending. I guess he gets to be the Seventh Calvary (Old Movie reference). I just wish they could have let Luke go out in a blaze of glory. That would be a great push to unite those to fight under. But Carrie passing left a gapping hole. Mark has said 7 was to focus on Han, 8 was to focus on Luke, and 9 is/was to focus on Leia. I guess it's possible RJ was blindsided by Carries passing story wise? And had to scramble? He claims to be a huge fan of SW, so it "Might" be possible that he didn't have as much control of the script as he would have liked. We'll never know.

    I am almost 60. I grew up in a time when we had heroes. I think girls having a heroine is long over due. All I ask, is make the stories good, let them put forth a strong message, that they can be anything they want to be, and are no less than men. Just one thing, do not forget to tell a compelling story. Disney has said they are mapping out the next 20 or 30 years of Star Wars (memory fails) so they darn sure have the time to tell a good story. Families like to pass on stories, and shared experiences. My now 80 year old mother, used to call my younger brother her "Mal functioning little twerp" which refers to R2. He's gone now, but that image and fond memory will go with me. SW gave families common ground. With so many families struggling to stay together in unsure times, they need a break, adventure, and humor, and love. I really hope SW 9 can deliver that and let the healing begin in the fandom. Call it an old mans wish.
    Post edited by DuneSeaFarmer on
  • No, the movie divorced itself and detracted from the Star Wars Legacy
    The thought occurs, could there be a "Luke: a Star Wars Story" coming?
  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    No, the movie divorced itself and detracted from the Star Wars Legacy
    The thought occurs, could there be a "Luke: a Star Wars Story" coming?

    Haha - I wouldn't be surprised! Who wants that no one, so of course Disney will likely make a movie of it.

    or how about a backstory movie on Admiral Ackbar or Nien Numb! - Now those would be cool! (sarcasm)
  • I think Rey could have had an excellent story. From Jaku waiting for her parents to return, but no they threw all of that down the drain that her parents were just junkers and sold her (although that could possibly not be true. Kylo says they are buried on Jakku but they are clearly flying away from Jakku unless they returned and didn't tell her).

    I think the other part is her finding her place in the galaxy/balance of the force. Which again they do in an awful way. She has those visions with the lightsabe in TFA, then just trains and bam becomes good instantly in TLJ.

    A lot of bad decisions, which is very unfortunate. But I wouldn't extend my hate for Rey (Daisy), rather just disappointed in the directors/writers choices.

    They did seem to make a lot of bad choices in writing the movies, maybe E9 will make everything make sense? I hope so.

    As for Kylo, if we can give any credibility to his statement that Rey's parents are dead, or nobodies, we also have to consider his version of Uncle Luke standing over him with a lightsaber, ready to kill him.
  • No, the movie divorced itself and detracted from the Star Wars Legacy
    Boo wrote: »
    The thought occurs, could there be a "Luke: a Star Wars Story" coming?

    Haha - I wouldn't be surprised! Who wants that no one, so of course Disney will likely make a movie of it.

    or how about a backstory movie on Admiral Ackbar or Nien Numb! - Now those would be cool! (sarcasm)

    Well, it could fill in the gaps. I'd be interested depending on the director etc. They could have Sebastian Stan play Luke. Many have wanted him to do just that. As for going forward, I'm still bummed Rebels ended. I liked it.
  • DuneSeaFarmer
    3525 posts Member
    edited June 2018
    No, the movie divorced itself and detracted from the Star Wars Legacy
    I think Rey could have had an excellent story. From Jaku waiting for her parents to return, but no they threw all of that down the drain that her parents were just junkers and sold her (although that could possibly not be true. Kylo says they are buried on Jakku but they are clearly flying away from Jakku unless they returned and didn't tell her).

    I think the other part is her finding her place in the galaxy/balance of the force. Which again they do in an awful way. She has those visions with the lightsabe in TFA, then just trains and bam becomes good instantly in TLJ.

    A lot of bad decisions, which is very unfortunate. But I wouldn't extend my hate for Rey (Daisy), rather just disappointed in the directors/writers choices.

    They did seem to make a lot of bad choices in writing the movies, maybe E9 will make everything make sense? I hope so.

    As for Kylo, if we can give any credibility to his statement that Rey's parents are dead, or nobodies, we also have to consider his version of Uncle Luke standing over him with a lightsaber, ready to kill him.


    I truly hope E9 works. I have a feeling Rey may find her end.

    Re:http://www.businessinsider.com/former-star-wars-director-allegedly-made-daisy-ridley-cry-when-revealing-rey-fate-2018-1


    Couple this with the fact Daisy said she will end playing Rey with EP 9

    Re: https://variety.com/2017/film/news/daisy-ridley-star-wars-no-more-after-episode-9-1202627235/

    An older article but I haven't seen anything disputing it since?


    But I need to split again. I hope all works out, and we are happy with things going forward. I think my biggest hardship with TLJ is seeing the trio go, and feeling time catching up with me. The curse of growing old is seeing those you care about, go.. Such is life though. Later people..

  • I think Rey could have had an excellent story. From Jaku waiting for her parents to return, but no they threw all of that down the drain that her parents were just junkers and sold her (although that could possibly not be true. Kylo says they are buried on Jakku but they are clearly flying away from Jakku unless they returned and didn't tell her).

    I think the other part is her finding her place in the galaxy/balance of the force. Which again they do in an awful way. She has those visions with the lightsabe in TFA, then just trains and bam becomes good instantly in TLJ.

    A lot of bad decisions, which is very unfortunate. But I wouldn't extend my hate for Rey (Daisy), rather just disappointed in the directors/writers choices.

    They did seem to make a lot of bad choices in writing the movies, maybe E9 will make everything make sense? I hope so.

    As for Kylo, if we can give any credibility to his statement that Rey's parents are dead, or nobodies, we also have to consider his version of Uncle Luke standing over him with a lightsaber, ready to kill him.


    I truly hope E9 works. I have a feeling Rey may find her end.

    Re:http://www.businessinsider.com/former-star-wars-director-allegedly-made-daisy-ridley-cry-when-revealing-rey-fate-2018-1


    Couple this with the fact Daisy said she will end playing Rey with EP 9

    Re: https://variety.com/2017/film/news/daisy-ridley-star-wars-no-more-after-episode-9-1202627235/

    An older article but I haven't seen anything disputing it since?


    But I need to split again. I hope all works out, and we are happy with things going forward. I think my biggest hardship with TLJ is seeing the trio go, and feeling time catching up with me. The curse of growing old is seeing those you care about, go.. Such is life though. Later people..

    Nothing concrete yet. Old Luke and the way he became one with the force will be more of an impact on me than the fate of any of the new characters. I say if anything, Finn should sacrifice himself Rose style for Rey.
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