Why is Modding Speed Even a Thing?

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Funderbolts
223 posts Member
edited February 2018
BLUF: Speed mods need to be adjusted to reflect similar stat increases offered by mods.

Dear developers, players, and fellow Star Wars fanatics,

First let me start by saying I love this game. Balance is a difficult thing to achieve in any game, and I appreciate the work put in by the CG crew to make this an enjoyable experience for every player, regardless of time in service or spending power. I understand that as a business, there's also the balance between making money and providing a product that anyone can enjoy. With that, I have a suggestion for further balance.

If I am not mistaken, the entire purpose of mods is to adjust the stats of your characters to either enhance their strengths, or help to minimize their flaws, e.g. beefing up a squishy character with some health or protection, or making a tank even tankier via the same stats.

Additionally, balance comes from having opposing stats that can be leveraged against each other. Potency vs. Tenacity, Offense vs Defense, Crit Chance vs. Crit Avoidance, Accuracy vs. Dodge, etc. But what currently counters speed? Nothing. It's the trump card. Stack that speed and everything else is just icing. Everyone knows it, which is why high speed secondaries and +30 speed arrows are unavoidably the most important mods in the game. The result is one stat to rule them all Lord of the Rings style.

EDIT: As such, the speed stat is a mechanic that should not be manipulated so drastically through mods. I would much rather see speed brought down to a comparable level as the other stats. E.g. you can have +30 speed, +5.88% offense, +11.75% defense, +12% accuracy, +5.88% health, +24% critical avoidance, or +23.5% protection on an arrow mod primary. That’s a total of 7 possible choices (unless I’m forgetting any). Yet speed 99% of the time is going to be the way to go, with the sole exception being protection for tanks that don’t need speed. Not only is that reflective of how speed affects the game, but notice it’s also the only mod that gives raw stats on the primary vs. % increases of every other stat. If the speed primary gave say a 10% increase, that would be drastically different than the +30 speed we are given. This problem is only further exacerbated by the raw speed secondaries. With speed mods, it’s entirely possible to DOUBLE the speed of a character, whereas you cannot possibly double a character’s offense, defense, or any other stat (exception being protection on tanks again, if you devote 4 slots to primaries with protection granting a bonus total +94% protection).

I would like to see more adjustable stats like dodge, armor/resistance penetration, and health steal. The intent is to focus on better customization of your characters based on actual strategy, whilst unshackling us from the over reliance on speed. It would immediately level the playing field, yes. In the long run however, it would pave the way for 6 and 7 star mods that we would welcome. Whereas in the current state, new higher tier mods would be a game-killer for the same reason: the speed mod grind.

I know this is likely a contentious subject and not everyone will agree, but I am curious to see what others think.

Very respectfully,
Funderbolts
Post edited by Funderbolts on

Replies

  • Kyno
    32056 posts Moderator
    Firstly, its funny you pick now to make a post like this with the Vader rework and plague around. DOT and plague are the anti speed. The faster they go the faster they die. Yes this is not a direct counter but its very effective right now.

    I would like to see more mods. but for the love of all things Jedi/Sith and anything else SW, please dont ever release a dodge stat on mods. EVER.

    You can't put the genie back in the bottle, other stats you listed are all aided by being faster.
  • Yeah , this subject, and why stop at speed let's add tenacity to the list I used to run tenacity crosses and sets even for tanks , support toons etc... I swore by them pre CLS days I would argue with guildmates and shardmates alike and I had proof of their viability. I mean what good was a ability blocked GK / rex am I right? But again CLS led to RJT and I have since swapped out with protections mods (not a deal breaker but they reduced the number of viable mods significantly adding these abilities that absolutely can't be resisted) quite sad but change is inevitable
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    I honestly don't see how it would be better without speed on mods. Well, maybe for players that don't have good speed mods.
    Lets not forget that very few people put speed set mods on all toons, so apparantly there's a trade off.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • Why?

    $
  • leef wrote: »
    I honestly don't see how it would be better without speed on mods. Well, maybe for players that don't have good speed mods.
    Lets not forget that very few people put speed set mods on all toons, so apparantly there's a trade off.


    Well, yeah... your never going to get 5 percent crit chance boost on a mod with 16+ speed secondary, so you NEED that set but you also NEED high speed secondary as well, that's why 90+ percent of mods find their way to the trash can. And probably the reason for our friends post here, probably feeling the mod farming blues
  • Funderbolts
    223 posts Member
    edited February 2018
    Kyno wrote: »
    Firstly, its funny you pick now to make a post like this with the Vader rework and plague around. DOT and plague are the anti speed. The faster they go the faster they die. Yes this is not a direct counter but its very effective right now.

    I would like to see more mods. but for the love of all things Jedi/Sith and anything else SW, please dont ever release a dodge stat on mods. EVER.

    You can't put the genie back in the bottle, other stats you listed are all aided by being faster.

    Would you ever consider using a slower team against those though? If not, then you can’t really say that speed is being countered. I’d still use the fast team against Vader or Talzin leads without thinking twice.
  • leef wrote: »
    I honestly don't see how it would be better without speed on mods. Well, maybe for players that don't have good speed mods.
    Lets not forget that very few people put speed set mods on all toons, so apparantly there's a trade off.

    I think that’s because the speed sets are basically a “poor man’s” answer to not having high speed secondaries. I think our over dependance on speed is what creates all these secondary issues such as wanting better mod management for swapping those speed mods. There’s just too much emphasis on the need for speed.
  • The problem isn’t that speed has no counter. The problem is that speed is out of proportion with everything else. On a speed primary mod you can have +5% offense or +30 speed. For even the fastest characters that is a 20% increase over base. If it was +20% offense or +5% speed we would be talking about offense is overpowered.
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    leef wrote: »
    I honestly don't see how it would be better without speed on mods. Well, maybe for players that don't have good speed mods.
    Lets not forget that very few people put speed set mods on all toons, so apparantly there's a trade off.

    I think that’s because the speed sets are basically a “poor man’s” answer to not having high speed secondaries. I think our over dependance on speed is what creates all these secondary issues such as wanting better mod management for swapping those speed mods. There’s just too much emphasis on the need for speed.

    No, the speed set is the best way to get a character as fast as possible. Sometimes it's not worth it though, so you settle for a little less speed but more damage for example. Hence it being a trade off.
    Speed is a very important stat in this game, regardless of mods. It wouldn't make sence to not be able to influence speed with mods. Turn order can make or break a team.
    Still not seeying how this game would benefit from not having speed on mods.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    I honestly don't see how it would be better without speed on mods. Well, maybe for players that don't have good speed mods.
    Lets not forget that very few people put speed set mods on all toons, so apparantly there's a trade off.

    I think that’s because the speed sets are basically a “poor man’s” answer to not having high speed secondaries. I think our over dependance on speed is what creates all these secondary issues such as wanting better mod management for swapping those speed mods. There’s just too much emphasis on the need for speed.

    No, the speed set is the best way to get a character as fast as possible. Sometimes it's not worth it though, so you settle for a little less speed but more damage for example. Hence it being a trade off.
    Speed is a very important stat in this game, regardless of mods. It wouldn't make sence to not be able to influence speed with mods. Turn order can make or break a team.
    Still not seeying how this game would benefit from not having speed on mods.

    Sometimes it’s not worth it, because 10% of a character’s base speed isn’t worth 4 slots, which goes back to the point that speed is unbalanced in its approach to mods already. Yeah, you trade off speed for offense or something else when it comes to sets, but you would never consider trading your +30 speed arrow for a +5.88% offense arrow. That’s not balance. If it were, then every mod slot you have would be open to debate as to which primary stat you would put on there. But as it stands now, two mod slots aren’t even customizable (square and diamond), the arrow is hands down speed, and the circle 23.5% protection is almost always going to trump a 5.88% health especially for higher geared characters with more protection.

    So the way I see it, the only really customizable mods you’re looking at are the cross and the triangle. Is that really meeting the intent of character customization, or is it creating a cookie cutter meta?
  • If they wanted to fix the speed issue, just make max speed (29 secondary or whatever ) mods common . That would make speed an even playing field and make the other stats actually important. But as it is, it makes farming speed secondary mods an eternal, important, and lucrative (for CG) activity . But it is tiring and lame. Very checkers-ish when we wanna play chess.
  • I think u need to farm mods more, like everyone else here hmm :confused:
  • Liath
    5140 posts Member
    I wasn't playing then, but my understanding is that before mods, arena basically consisted of a coin flip to see whose Poe went first, and whichever side won the coin flip won, and there was pretty much nothing you could do about it, and it wasn't fun.
  • Good discussion, remember (regardless of if speed actually is "overpowered" or not) if it wasn't speed though, it would be something else that would be most important. There will always be an optimal.
    **Please tag me (@ShaolinPunk) if you need assistance.** My Collection. . My Poll.. Ally Code: 332-622-913 Discord: shaolin_punk#2107
  • Liath wrote: »
    I wasn't playing then, but my understanding is that before mods, arena basically consisted of a coin flip to see whose Poe went first, and whichever side won the coin flip won, and there was pretty much nothing you could do about it, and it wasn't fun.

    How is that any different than now? Except now you have to get really lucky and flip the coin and land it on its side (get a good speed mod)

    luck is still a huge part of this game

    Bigly
  • Liath
    5140 posts Member
    Liath wrote: »
    I wasn't playing then, but my understanding is that before mods, arena basically consisted of a coin flip to see whose Poe went first, and whichever side won the coin flip won, and there was pretty much nothing you could do about it, and it wasn't fun.

    How is that any different than now? Except now you have to get really lucky and flip the coin and land it on its side (get a good speed mod)

    luck is still a huge part of this game

    Bigly

    Luck will always be part of the game, but that's not the same as this sort of frustration. If you haven't had good luck farming mods you can at least farm more of them and keep trying and hope you get that unicorn. You can also be better than other people at selecting the right mods (some people really just don't understand them). Without mods, it's akin to whose TIE Fighter goes first at the same gear level in ship fights. People complain much more about RNG in ships than in regular arena now because once you've maxed your gear there is nothing more you can do to try to tip the scales in your favor.
  • My point in this discussion is that speed is the stat above all other stats. It’s the one thing we look for on every mod, and essentially gives a mod it’s worth. I could get a gold mod and if it doesn’t have speed somewhere on there, it might as well be junk. It’s not that speed is even necessarily bad, but that it’s value makes all other stats inferior. I can completely get behind the argument that turn order is important and that’s why modding speed should be a part of the strategy. That’s a fair point. But as it stands, the relative value of speed makes the rest of the mod stats junk.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Firstly, its funny you pick now to make a post like this with the Vader rework and plague around. DOT and plague are the anti speed. The faster they go the faster they die. Yes this is not a direct counter but its very effective right now.

    I would like to see more mods. but for the love of all things Jedi/Sith and anything else SW, please dont ever release a dodge stat on mods. EVER.

    You can't put the genie back in the bottle, other stats you listed are all aided by being faster.

    Actually this wrong Kyno. First of all, dots don't last long enough to kill anyone. The damage they do isn't all that remarkable and with a zetas like R2s they can easily be cleansed. Most characters in fact can lifesteal the difference. No dot lasts for more than 2-3 turns which won't kill anyone. The only way to make them last longer is with zeta vader lead. The issue with that is that is that there are far better leaderships in the game.

    Lets take what you said, "the faster they go, the faster they die". Do you think that anyone will say "hey let me not put any speed on my characters so that I take less turns and die less quickly"? No they won't. Firstly by getting fewer turns yourself it means the enemy will only reapply dots more easily, and not only mods. You risk stuns by Palpatine and cool down reductiond by Nihilus.

    We all know that speed isn't as much about continuation as much as it is about your characters initially going before the enemy and applying crowd control, opening up the field and setting up defense.

    Lastly, to the point of plague. Yeah going faster does kill you fast but going slower means getting many more stacks of plague. Possibly getting stunned by Daka, ect. In fact the key to beating nightsisters who have speed in their leaderships, is to make sure you get a full rotation before them. This way you can control daka and talzin, remove the taunt from zombie and if acolyte is there then you wanna make sure she doesn't stealth, if you aren't running aoe. Why would anyone want to open the battle with a bunch of plagues already on them before they can even have a turn?

    Respectfully, don't think you have thought this response well.
  • Lothario wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    I honestly don't see how it would be better without speed on mods. Well, maybe for players that don't have good speed mods.
    Lets not forget that very few people put speed set mods on all toons, so apparantly there's a trade off.


    Well, yeah... your never going to get 5 percent crit chance boost on a mod with 16+ speed secondary, so you NEED that set but you also NEED high speed secondary as well, that's why 90+ percent of mods find their way to the trash can. And probably the reason for our friends post here, probably feeling the mod farming blues

    Make that 95%+
  • I think the best way to fix speed is to remove it's effect on turn meter. Simply put it like this. All turn meter grows the same amount after each player's turn. What this means is that if you are in a 1v1 and one character has 90 speed and the other has 290 speed, one will always attack right after the other.

    The only thing that speed would determine is who goes first at the start of the battle. In a way at the start of the encounter you would determine a queue based on the speeds of the character and based on that queue all characters take their turn one after the other.

    Abilities like Han's shots first will no determing sequence, aka which ever Han attacks first will still abide by the speed rule.

    The abilities that give turn meter will still apply, changing the sequence. Speed down will work the same way.

    Basically TM will grow a fixed ammount after everyone's turn, independently of speed. Say 10% after everyone's turn, or something like that.
  • B0untryHR7 wrote: »
    I think the best way to fix speed is to remove it's effect on turn meter. Simply put it like this. All turn meter grows the same amount after each player's turn. What this means is that if you are in a 1v1 and one character has 90 speed and the other has 290 speed, one will always attack right after the other.

    The only thing that speed would determine is who goes first at the start of the battle. In a way at the start of the encounter you would determine a queue based on the speeds of the character and based on that queue all characters take their turn one after the other.

    Abilities like Han's shots first will no determing sequence, aka which ever Han attacks first will still abide by the speed rule.

    The abilities that give turn meter will still apply, changing the sequence. Speed down will work the same way.

    Basically TM will grow a fixed ammount after everyone's turn, independently of speed. Say 10% after everyone's turn, or something like that.

    Sounds like a bad idea. Or a major step backwards and sideways into chaos
  • Another possibility is that there is an algorith that will pick the lowest speed character and the fastest character at the start of the encounter and it will calculate a number from 1 to 10 based on their speed. For example of you have baze being the slowest at 90 and CLS being the fastest at 250 the game will assign 1 at Baze and a 10 at CLS. Based on that number the characters will have their turn in sequence. Ties are determined by RNG. So if there are 2 characters with 5 each, the game will assign one with 4.9 and the other woth 5.1.

    The effect of speed down will work as a -2 penalty. This way if you have a Han who is at 170 speed and that lands him a 6 out of 10. With speed down he gets to 4 out of 10. Meaning that in the next rotation whoever has 4 will be 50-50. Whoever has 5 and 6 will go before him until the speed is removed.

    I know it sounds complicated, but it's really not. The only issue is with raids. I'm not sure how that would work in raids
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    My point in this discussion is that speed is the stat above all other stats. It’s the one thing we look for on every mod, and essentially gives a mod it’s worth. I could get a gold mod and if it doesn’t have speed somewhere on there, it might as well be junk. It’s not that speed is even necessarily bad, but that it’s value makes all other stats inferior. I can completely get behind the argument that turn order is important and that’s why modding speed should be a part of the strategy. That’s a fair point. But as it stands, the relative value of speed makes the rest of the mod stats junk.

    Sounds to me like you don't want to farm mods.
    Sure, speed is the most effective stat boost mods can provide. It's not even close to the other stat boosts, moreover, it's not "speed or", but "speed and". There's not point denying that eventhough in some cases it's beneficial to settle for less speed in order to get a more beneficial set bonus or primary.
    What i fail to see is why this is a bad thing. It's not balanced, for example a +24% tenacity boost is way worse than a 5.8% offence boost on pretty much every character ingame, not just on attackers. So it's not just speed that isn't ballanced. Why is that such a bad thing though? It not being balanced isn't an argument in favour of it needing to be changed, it's just an observation of the current situation. Somehow people think that ballance is always the awnser, yet in this game it's the imballances that make the game fun to play.
    Speed is awesome and allows players to have a better squad than others. Farming mods is a major pita, but it's worth it. Without speed on mods there would be little to nothing to gain from mods that would benefit the one player more than the other, thus effectively making them completely useless (since the other stat boost aside from speed are easily farmed, or don't have a large impact on gameplay).
    That said, i wouldn't mind if some of the other stats would have a bigger impact on battles. It could be beneficial to the game if the trade off between speed and other stat boosts wasn't so skewed. Then again, that would probably result in even more mod farming because the "perfect mod" would have to include even more key stats.
    Full disclosure, i farmed a fudge ton of mods. 746 currently equiped. Out of those 746, 480 have a speed secondary and 94 a speed primary. That leaves only 172 mods equiped without any form of a speed boost on them.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • leef wrote: »
    My point in this discussion is that speed is the stat above all other stats. It’s the one thing we look for on every mod, and essentially gives a mod it’s worth. I could get a gold mod and if it doesn’t have speed somewhere on there, it might as well be junk. It’s not that speed is even necessarily bad, but that it’s value makes all other stats inferior. I can completely get behind the argument that turn order is important and that’s why modding speed should be a part of the strategy. That’s a fair point. But as it stands, the relative value of speed makes the rest of the mod stats junk.

    Sounds to me like you don't want to farm mods.
    Sure, speed is the most effective stat boost mods can provide. It's not even close to the other stat boosts, moreover, it's not "speed or", but "speed and". There's not point denying that eventhough in some cases it's beneficial to settle for less speed in order to get a more beneficial set bonus or primary.
    What i fail to see is why this is a bad thing. It's not balanced, for example a +24% tenacity boost is way worse than a 5.8% offence boost on pretty much every character ingame, not just on attackers. So it's not just speed that isn't ballanced. Why is that such a bad thing though? It not being balanced isn't an argument in favour of it needing to be changed, it's just an observation of the current situation. Somehow people think that ballance is always the awnser, yet in this game it's the imballances that make the game fun to play.
    Speed is awesome and allows players to have a better squad than others. Farming mods is a major pita, but it's worth it. Without speed on mods there would be little to nothing to gain from mods that would benefit the one player more than the other, thus effectively making them completely useless (since the other stat boost aside from speed are easily farmed, or don't have a large impact on gameplay).
    That said, i wouldn't mind if some of the other stats would have a bigger impact on battles. It could be beneficial to the game if the trade off between speed and other stat boosts wasn't so skewed. Then again, that would probably result in even more mod farming because the "perfect mod" would have to include even more key stats.
    Full disclosure, i farmed a fudge ton of mods. 746 currently equiped. Out of those 746, 480 have a speed secondary and 94 a speed primary. That leaves only 172 mods equiped without any form of a speed boost on them.

    Farming mods isn’t the issue. I’ve farmed them, everyone has farmed them, and I’m pretty sure nobody is going to stop farming them regardless of how they feel about their current state. My point is not to gripe about the current energy cost, time it takes to acquire mods, or a general self pity party over my personal RNG experience. If that is all you are taking from my argument, then you are missing my point. My point is a system that: 1) requires you to look for one stat to determine a mod’s worth, 2) ends with 95% of mods in the trash, and 3) provides very little in terms of actual customization of your characters is a system that deserves to be reexamined.
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    leef wrote: »
    My point in this discussion is that speed is the stat above all other stats. It’s the one thing we look for on every mod, and essentially gives a mod it’s worth. I could get a gold mod and if it doesn’t have speed somewhere on there, it might as well be junk. It’s not that speed is even necessarily bad, but that it’s value makes all other stats inferior. I can completely get behind the argument that turn order is important and that’s why modding speed should be a part of the strategy. That’s a fair point. But as it stands, the relative value of speed makes the rest of the mod stats junk.

    Sounds to me like you don't want to farm mods.
    Sure, speed is the most effective stat boost mods can provide. It's not even close to the other stat boosts, moreover, it's not "speed or", but "speed and". There's not point denying that eventhough in some cases it's beneficial to settle for less speed in order to get a more beneficial set bonus or primary.
    What i fail to see is why this is a bad thing. It's not balanced, for example a +24% tenacity boost is way worse than a 5.8% offence boost on pretty much every character ingame, not just on attackers. So it's not just speed that isn't ballanced. Why is that such a bad thing though? It not being balanced isn't an argument in favour of it needing to be changed, it's just an observation of the current situation. Somehow people think that ballance is always the awnser, yet in this game it's the imballances that make the game fun to play.
    Speed is awesome and allows players to have a better squad than others. Farming mods is a major pita, but it's worth it. Without speed on mods there would be little to nothing to gain from mods that would benefit the one player more than the other, thus effectively making them completely useless (since the other stat boost aside from speed are easily farmed, or don't have a large impact on gameplay).
    That said, i wouldn't mind if some of the other stats would have a bigger impact on battles. It could be beneficial to the game if the trade off between speed and other stat boosts wasn't so skewed. Then again, that would probably result in even more mod farming because the "perfect mod" would have to include even more key stats.
    Full disclosure, i farmed a fudge ton of mods. 746 currently equiped. Out of those 746, 480 have a speed secondary and 94 a speed primary. That leaves only 172 mods equiped without any form of a speed boost on them.

    Farming mods isn’t the issue. I’ve farmed them, everyone has farmed them, and I’m pretty sure nobody is going to stop farming them regardless of how they feel about their current state. My point is not to gripe about the current energy cost, time it takes to acquire mods, or a general self pity party over my personal RNG experience. If that is all you are taking from my argument, then you are missing my point. My point is a system that: 1) requires you to look for one stat to determine a mod’s worth, 2) ends with 95% of mods in the trash, and 3) provides very little in terms of actual customization of your characters is a system that deserves to be reexamined.
    Point 1 and 2 both indicate that farming mods is in fact the issue. Point 3 could be debated, but removing speed won't allow for more actual customazition of your characters.
    Also, i would definately stop farming mods if speed was removed.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    My point in this discussion is that speed is the stat above all other stats. It’s the one thing we look for on every mod, and essentially gives a mod it’s worth. I could get a gold mod and if it doesn’t have speed somewhere on there, it might as well be junk. It’s not that speed is even necessarily bad, but that it’s value makes all other stats inferior. I can completely get behind the argument that turn order is important and that’s why modding speed should be a part of the strategy. That’s a fair point. But as it stands, the relative value of speed makes the rest of the mod stats junk.

    Sounds to me like you don't want to farm mods.
    Sure, speed is the most effective stat boost mods can provide. It's not even close to the other stat boosts, moreover, it's not "speed or", but "speed and". There's not point denying that eventhough in some cases it's beneficial to settle for less speed in order to get a more beneficial set bonus or primary.
    What i fail to see is why this is a bad thing. It's not balanced, for example a +24% tenacity boost is way worse than a 5.8% offence boost on pretty much every character ingame, not just on attackers. So it's not just speed that isn't ballanced. Why is that such a bad thing though? It not being balanced isn't an argument in favour of it needing to be changed, it's just an observation of the current situation. Somehow people think that ballance is always the awnser, yet in this game it's the imballances that make the game fun to play.
    Speed is awesome and allows players to have a better squad than others. Farming mods is a major pita, but it's worth it. Without speed on mods there would be little to nothing to gain from mods that would benefit the one player more than the other, thus effectively making them completely useless (since the other stat boost aside from speed are easily farmed, or don't have a large impact on gameplay).
    That said, i wouldn't mind if some of the other stats would have a bigger impact on battles. It could be beneficial to the game if the trade off between speed and other stat boosts wasn't so skewed. Then again, that would probably result in even more mod farming because the "perfect mod" would have to include even more key stats.
    Full disclosure, i farmed a fudge ton of mods. 746 currently equiped. Out of those 746, 480 have a speed secondary and 94 a speed primary. That leaves only 172 mods equiped without any form of a speed boost on them.

    Farming mods isn’t the issue. I’ve farmed them, everyone has farmed them, and I’m pretty sure nobody is going to stop farming them regardless of how they feel about their current state. My point is not to gripe about the current energy cost, time it takes to acquire mods, or a general self pity party over my personal RNG experience. If that is all you are taking from my argument, then you are missing my point. My point is a system that: 1) requires you to look for one stat to determine a mod’s worth, 2) ends with 95% of mods in the trash, and 3) provides very little in terms of actual customization of your characters is a system that deserves to be reexamined.
    Point 1 and 2 both indicate that farming mods is in fact the issue. Point 3 could be debated, but removing speed won't allow for more actual customazition of your characters.
    Also, i would definately stop farming mods if speed was removed.

    Agree to disagree then. Writing off my argument against speed on mods as a complaint against farming is the same as if I were to write of your defense of it as you being a whale heavily invested in the current system. It’s a fallacy of logic (ad hominem) and doesn’t serve any use in honest discussion. You see, whether I have many good speed mods or not does not validate or invalidate the claim that speed needs to be evaluated moving forward.
  • leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    My point in this discussion is that speed is the stat above all other stats. It’s the one thing we look for on every mod, and essentially gives a mod it’s worth. I could get a gold mod and if it doesn’t have speed somewhere on there, it might as well be junk. It’s not that speed is even necessarily bad, but that it’s value makes all other stats inferior. I can completely get behind the argument that turn order is important and that’s why modding speed should be a part of the strategy. That’s a fair point. But as it stands, the relative value of speed makes the rest of the mod stats junk.

    Sounds to me like you don't want to farm mods.
    Sure, speed is the most effective stat boost mods can provide. It's not even close to the other stat boosts, moreover, it's not "speed or", but "speed and". There's not point denying that eventhough in some cases it's beneficial to settle for less speed in order to get a more beneficial set bonus or primary.
    What i fail to see is why this is a bad thing. It's not balanced, for example a +24% tenacity boost is way worse than a 5.8% offence boost on pretty much every character ingame, not just on attackers. So it's not just speed that isn't ballanced. Why is that such a bad thing though? It not being balanced isn't an argument in favour of it needing to be changed, it's just an observation of the current situation. Somehow people think that ballance is always the awnser, yet in this game it's the imballances that make the game fun to play.
    Speed is awesome and allows players to have a better squad than others. Farming mods is a major pita, but it's worth it. Without speed on mods there would be little to nothing to gain from mods that would benefit the one player more than the other, thus effectively making them completely useless (since the other stat boost aside from speed are easily farmed, or don't have a large impact on gameplay).
    That said, i wouldn't mind if some of the other stats would have a bigger impact on battles. It could be beneficial to the game if the trade off between speed and other stat boosts wasn't so skewed. Then again, that would probably result in even more mod farming because the "perfect mod" would have to include even more key stats.
    Full disclosure, i farmed a fudge ton of mods. 746 currently equiped. Out of those 746, 480 have a speed secondary and 94 a speed primary. That leaves only 172 mods equiped without any form of a speed boost on them.

    Farming mods isn’t the issue. I’ve farmed them, everyone has farmed them, and I’m pretty sure nobody is going to stop farming them regardless of how they feel about their current state. My point is not to gripe about the current energy cost, time it takes to acquire mods, or a general self pity party over my personal RNG experience. If that is all you are taking from my argument, then you are missing my point. My point is a system that: 1) requires you to look for one stat to determine a mod’s worth, 2) ends with 95% of mods in the trash, and 3) provides very little in terms of actual customization of your characters is a system that deserves to be reexamined.
    Point 1 and 2 both indicate that farming mods is in fact the issue. Point 3 could be debated, but removing speed won't allow for more actual customazition of your characters.
    Also, i would definately stop farming mods if speed was removed.

    Agree to disagree then. Writing off my argument against speed on mods as a complaint against farming is the same as if I were to write of your defense of it as you being a whale heavily invested in the current system. It’s a fallacy of logic (ad hominem) and doesn’t serve any use in honest discussion. You see, whether I have many good speed mods or not does not validate or invalidate the claim that speed needs to be evaluated moving forward.
    What leef is saying is that he feels that the core message of your argument is that mod farming is bad. No it doesnt write of the argument, its just that he fells that you dont really know what you re impyling. And that is important, bcos you could. be fighting for the wrong thing.

  • Funderbolts
    223 posts Member
    edited February 2018
    swgohfan29 wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    My point in this discussion is that speed is the stat above all other stats. It’s the one thing we look for on every mod, and essentially gives a mod it’s worth. I could get a gold mod and if it doesn’t have speed somewhere on there, it might as well be junk. It’s not that speed is even necessarily bad, but that it’s value makes all other stats inferior. I can completely get behind the argument that turn order is important and that’s why modding speed should be a part of the strategy. That’s a fair point. But as it stands, the relative value of speed makes the rest of the mod stats junk.

    Sounds to me like you don't want to farm mods.
    Sure, speed is the most effective stat boost mods can provide. It's not even close to the other stat boosts, moreover, it's not "speed or", but "speed and". There's not point denying that eventhough in some cases it's beneficial to settle for less speed in order to get a more beneficial set bonus or primary.
    What i fail to see is why this is a bad thing. It's not balanced, for example a +24% tenacity boost is way worse than a 5.8% offence boost on pretty much every character ingame, not just on attackers. So it's not just speed that isn't ballanced. Why is that such a bad thing though? It not being balanced isn't an argument in favour of it needing to be changed, it's just an observation of the current situation. Somehow people think that ballance is always the awnser, yet in this game it's the imballances that make the game fun to play.
    Speed is awesome and allows players to have a better squad than others. Farming mods is a major pita, but it's worth it. Without speed on mods there would be little to nothing to gain from mods that would benefit the one player more than the other, thus effectively making them completely useless (since the other stat boost aside from speed are easily farmed, or don't have a large impact on gameplay).
    That said, i wouldn't mind if some of the other stats would have a bigger impact on battles. It could be beneficial to the game if the trade off between speed and other stat boosts wasn't so skewed. Then again, that would probably result in even more mod farming because the "perfect mod" would have to include even more key stats.
    Full disclosure, i farmed a fudge ton of mods. 746 currently equiped. Out of those 746, 480 have a speed secondary and 94 a speed primary. That leaves only 172 mods equiped without any form of a speed boost on them.

    Farming mods isn’t the issue. I’ve farmed them, everyone has farmed them, and I’m pretty sure nobody is going to stop farming them regardless of how they feel about their current state. My point is not to gripe about the current energy cost, time it takes to acquire mods, or a general self pity party over my personal RNG experience. If that is all you are taking from my argument, then you are missing my point. My point is a system that: 1) requires you to look for one stat to determine a mod’s worth, 2) ends with 95% of mods in the trash, and 3) provides very little in terms of actual customization of your characters is a system that deserves to be reexamined.
    Point 1 and 2 both indicate that farming mods is in fact the issue. Point 3 could be debated, but removing speed won't allow for more actual customazition of your characters.
    Also, i would definately stop farming mods if speed was removed.

    Agree to disagree then. Writing off my argument against speed on mods as a complaint against farming is the same as if I were to write of your defense of it as you being a whale heavily invested in the current system. It’s a fallacy of logic (ad hominem) and doesn’t serve any use in honest discussion. You see, whether I have many good speed mods or not does not validate or invalidate the claim that speed needs to be evaluated moving forward.
    What leef is saying is that he feels that the core message of your argument is that mod farming is bad. No it doesnt write of the argument, its just that he fells that you dont really know what you re impyling. And that is important, bcos you could. be fighting for the wrong thing.

    The core issue of my message is exactly what I said it is: speed is an unbalanced stat that devalues every other stat and hurts character customization for all the reasons I have listed. To deviate from exactly that which I have claimed is not an issue of what I am implying — it is an issue of what the reader is inferring. There is a difference. Especially since I’ve repeatedly denied that implication ( not that it should even matter, since it is a red herring).
  • @leef you did have a very good point about turn order which I agree with though. That is why my initial stance of speed shouldn’t be anywhere on mods has changed to speed on mods should be balanced to reflect the impact of other mods. For example that +30 speed arrow, as @Bulldog1205 pointed out, reflects a much greater percentage of a character’s base speed. For a fast character with 180 base speed, that’s a 16.7% increase. For a slower character at 120 base speed, that’s an increase of 25%. That’s just for the primary. With a lot of good secondary speed stats, you can effectively increase a character’s speed by 100, which for some characters is doubling their base speed or close to it. If the same effects could be reached with say offense and you could effectively double a character’s offense, there would be an equal issue of imbalance. So I think @Bulldog1205 hit the issue head-on and what needs to be adjusted is how dramatic of an increase these high speed mods give.
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    My point in this discussion is that speed is the stat above all other stats. It’s the one thing we look for on every mod, and essentially gives a mod it’s worth. I could get a gold mod and if it doesn’t have speed somewhere on there, it might as well be junk. It’s not that speed is even necessarily bad, but that it’s value makes all other stats inferior. I can completely get behind the argument that turn order is important and that’s why modding speed should be a part of the strategy. That’s a fair point. But as it stands, the relative value of speed makes the rest of the mod stats junk.

    Sounds to me like you don't want to farm mods.
    Sure, speed is the most effective stat boost mods can provide. It's not even close to the other stat boosts, moreover, it's not "speed or", but "speed and". There's not point denying that eventhough in some cases it's beneficial to settle for less speed in order to get a more beneficial set bonus or primary.
    What i fail to see is why this is a bad thing. It's not balanced, for example a +24% tenacity boost is way worse than a 5.8% offence boost on pretty much every character ingame, not just on attackers. So it's not just speed that isn't ballanced. Why is that such a bad thing though? It not being balanced isn't an argument in favour of it needing to be changed, it's just an observation of the current situation. Somehow people think that ballance is always the awnser, yet in this game it's the imballances that make the game fun to play.
    Speed is awesome and allows players to have a better squad than others. Farming mods is a major pita, but it's worth it. Without speed on mods there would be little to nothing to gain from mods that would benefit the one player more than the other, thus effectively making them completely useless (since the other stat boost aside from speed are easily farmed, or don't have a large impact on gameplay).
    That said, i wouldn't mind if some of the other stats would have a bigger impact on battles. It could be beneficial to the game if the trade off between speed and other stat boosts wasn't so skewed. Then again, that would probably result in even more mod farming because the "perfect mod" would have to include even more key stats.
    Full disclosure, i farmed a fudge ton of mods. 746 currently equiped. Out of those 746, 480 have a speed secondary and 94 a speed primary. That leaves only 172 mods equiped without any form of a speed boost on them.

    Farming mods isn’t the issue. I’ve farmed them, everyone has farmed them, and I’m pretty sure nobody is going to stop farming them regardless of how they feel about their current state. My point is not to gripe about the current energy cost, time it takes to acquire mods, or a general self pity party over my personal RNG experience. If that is all you are taking from my argument, then you are missing my point. My point is a system that: 1) requires you to look for one stat to determine a mod’s worth, 2) ends with 95% of mods in the trash, and 3) provides very little in terms of actual customization of your characters is a system that deserves to be reexamined.
    Point 1 and 2 both indicate that farming mods is in fact the issue. Point 3 could be debated, but removing speed won't allow for more actual customazition of your characters.
    Also, i would definately stop farming mods if speed was removed.

    Agree to disagree then. Writing off my argument against speed on mods as a complaint against farming is the same as if I were to write of your defense of it as you being a whale heavily invested in the current system. It’s a fallacy of logic (ad hominem) and doesn’t serve any use in honest discussion. You see, whether I have many good speed mods or not does not validate or invalidate the claim that speed needs to be evaluated moving forward.

    I was being honest. To me it looks like you're blaming speed on mods because you're having an issue with mod farming.
    Please give me a reason to believe it's in fact the speed on the mods that is the problem. You actually haven't countered any of my arguments, while i believe i countered all of yours.
    And yes, me being heavily invested in speed mods certainly influences my opinion. That's why i mentioned it, acknowledging one's bias isn't a bad thing imo. Regardless of that obvious bias, i still think i made valid arguments in favour of keeping speed on mods.
    Save water, drink champagne!
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