Why is Modding Speed Even a Thing?

Replies

  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    All i see in this thread are arguments why speed is imbalanced, not why it's bad. What would change if speed was more balanced? How would that affect the game? Would that really be desirable over the way it currently is and why?
    Simple questions that are very difficult to awnser.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    My point in this discussion is that speed is the stat above all other stats. It’s the one thing we look for on every mod, and essentially gives a mod it’s worth. I could get a gold mod and if it doesn’t have speed somewhere on there, it might as well be junk. It’s not that speed is even necessarily bad, but that it’s value makes all other stats inferior. I can completely get behind the argument that turn order is important and that’s why modding speed should be a part of the strategy. That’s a fair point. But as it stands, the relative value of speed makes the rest of the mod stats junk.

    Sounds to me like you don't want to farm mods.
    Sure, speed is the most effective stat boost mods can provide. It's not even close to the other stat boosts, moreover, it's not "speed or", but "speed and". There's not point denying that eventhough in some cases it's beneficial to settle for less speed in order to get a more beneficial set bonus or primary.
    What i fail to see is why this is a bad thing. It's not balanced, for example a +24% tenacity boost is way worse than a 5.8% offence boost on pretty much every character ingame, not just on attackers. So it's not just speed that isn't ballanced. Why is that such a bad thing though? It not being balanced isn't an argument in favour of it needing to be changed, it's just an observation of the current situation. Somehow people think that ballance is always the awnser, yet in this game it's the imballances that make the game fun to play.
    Speed is awesome and allows players to have a better squad than others. Farming mods is a major pita, but it's worth it. Without speed on mods there would be little to nothing to gain from mods that would benefit the one player more than the other, thus effectively making them completely useless (since the other stat boost aside from speed are easily farmed, or don't have a large impact on gameplay).
    That said, i wouldn't mind if some of the other stats would have a bigger impact on battles. It could be beneficial to the game if the trade off between speed and other stat boosts wasn't so skewed. Then again, that would probably result in even more mod farming because the "perfect mod" would have to include even more key stats.
    Full disclosure, i farmed a fudge ton of mods. 746 currently equiped. Out of those 746, 480 have a speed secondary and 94 a speed primary. That leaves only 172 mods equiped without any form of a speed boost on them.

    Farming mods isn’t the issue. I’ve farmed them, everyone has farmed them, and I’m pretty sure nobody is going to stop farming them regardless of how they feel about their current state. My point is not to gripe about the current energy cost, time it takes to acquire mods, or a general self pity party over my personal RNG experience. If that is all you are taking from my argument, then you are missing my point. My point is a system that: 1) requires you to look for one stat to determine a mod’s worth, 2) ends with 95% of mods in the trash, and 3) provides very little in terms of actual customization of your characters is a system that deserves to be reexamined.
    Point 1 and 2 both indicate that farming mods is in fact the issue. Point 3 could be debated, but removing speed won't allow for more actual customazition of your characters.
    Also, i would definately stop farming mods if speed was removed.

    Agree to disagree then. Writing off my argument against speed on mods as a complaint against farming is the same as if I were to write of your defense of it as you being a whale heavily invested in the current system. It’s a fallacy of logic (ad hominem) and doesn’t serve any use in honest discussion. You see, whether I have many good speed mods or not does not validate or invalidate the claim that speed needs to be evaluated moving forward.

    I was being honest. To me it looks like you're blaming speed on mods because you're having an issue with mod farming.
    Please give me a reason to believe it's in fact the speed on the mods that is the problem. You actually haven't countered any of my arguments, while i believe i countered all of yours.
    And yes, me being heavily invested in speed mods certainly influences my opinion. That's why i mentioned it, acknowledging one's bias isn't a bad thing imo. Regardless of that obvious bias, i still think i made valid arguments in favour of keeping speed on mods.

    You haven’t really countered anything here. You assert that speed is important as it determines turn order (something I agree on), then you go on to say that other stats are unbalanced too (also something I agree on) and that somehow imbalances make the game great (for whom?). You finish by stating that you wouldn’t mind if the other stats had a bigger impact on the battle (literally agreeing with my entire point, but suggesting somehow that raising all the other stats is better than simply lowering the speed stat). So actually man, I’m not really even sure what your counter argument really is since you seem to contradict a lot of what you’re saying. All I can gather is 1) you like speed because “speed is awesome and allows players to have a better squad than others”, 2) you admit that balance between stats on mods is an issue but somehow that’s a good thing (without explaining why that is) and 3) you “wouldn’t mind if some of the other stats would have a bigger impact on battles”, which seems to fly in direct contrast to you liking the imbalance that speed gives you. Honestly man, I get it, you love the high speed mods you’ve worked so hard to get. So do I. But it doesn’t do any good for the game to have one stat so highly coveted and imbalanced. You’re saying raise the other stats, I’m saying lower the one. In the end, we are arguing for the same thing, just one of us is holding on a little more tightly to the things on which they spent a lot of time and probably money.
  • leef wrote: »
    All i see in this thread are arguments why speed is imbalanced, not why it's bad. What would change if speed was more balanced? How would that affect the game? Would that really be desirable over the way it currently is and why?
    Simple questions that are very difficult to awnser.

    Once again, you are asserting that imbalance does not equal bad without explanation of why that is (I infer that imbalance helps keep your perceived status quo over the peasants who don’t buy speed mods). I assert to the contrary that imbalance is bad because it offers less choice in customization and devalues every other stat. I assumed that you could derive the changes that would occur if speed was balanced by looking at exactly what I’ve just stated. But hey, I’ll spell it out. If speed was balanced there would: be more choices in customization and every other stat would have more value.
  • I can say it also isn't fun, and I think drives people to leave.
    YMMV, but I farmed nov and dec every day, 3 crystal refreshes a day max tier CC mods. I ended with a best mod of 12 speed secondary, and it was a 4 star mod. Best 5 star was 11 speed. This was basically a waste of 18,000 crystals ( 300 a day for two months), as these are not very good. Also, it was therefore a waste of 2 months time as well.

    Since Kylo unmasked dropped in cantina I have been farming him, the same 300 crystals in refreshes a day. I will have him 7 starred by the end of the week. This is much more rewarding, fun, and is a much better way to keep players interested.

    Mythical speed mods are not.

    - almost forgot, during that two month time I also wasted hundreds of millions of credits on upgrading purple and gold mods that started with speed secondary but never increased
  • Naraic
    2243 posts Member
    edited February 2018
    I'll be honest I think the way to change the speed bias to to rework every single toon' s stats.

    I refer to a discussion about combat I had a with a USMC combat veteran who had a significant role in the design and development of usmcmap about speed in combat.

    It's not about being the fastest but you need to be fast enough to hit hard enough to influence the rest of the fight. At the moment any team in the top 3 or 4 metas can do that. In some cases they aren't hitting but they do something to influence the rest of the fight.

    The key point is everyone is strong enough so it's all about being first. If you made it so characters were less able to influence the fight as is they would need to go hunting mods that would let them do so.

    Let's look at one character R2D2. Let's add 40 speed to his base stats and take away 20% offense and 10% potency. He is fast but he does t land stuns and burns and hits like a wet noodle. You might chang3 his mods in this case looking fornpotency secondaries and swap your speed arrow for a offense arrow.

    You might see a r2d2 with similar speeds to current r2d2 in the end but different mods would be used. Or maybe not.

    The thing is it's a massive amount of work to rebalance every character like this,
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    leef wrote: »
    All i see in this thread are arguments why speed is imbalanced, not why it's bad. What would change if speed was more balanced? How would that affect the game? Would that really be desirable over the way it currently is and why?
    Simple questions that are very difficult to awnser.

    Once again, you are asserting that imbalance does not equal bad without explanation of why that is (I infer that imbalance helps keep your perceived status quo over the peasants who don’t buy speed mods). I assert to the contrary that imbalance is bad because it offers less choice in customization and devalues every other stat. I assumed that you could derive the changes that would occur if speed was balanced by looking at exactly what I’ve just stated. But hey, I’ll spell it out. If speed was balanced there would: be more choices in customization and every other stat would have more value.

    Imbalance is good because it's why your choices matter. If everything was equal, it wouldn't matter what you chose.
    Imbalance is also good because it provides the oppertunity to become a king instead of remaining a peasant. We can't all be peasants or all kings, (i'm f2p btw, in case you were wondering)
    Imbalance basically makes competition possible in this game. Beating the AI isn't challenging at all, so outperforming your peers has to come from something else than "skill", in this case; mods. (and toons obviously, but having the same maxed toons as your peers isn't exactly uncommon)
    Now that we've got that out of the way, i wonder if you could actually anwser the questions.
    What would change if speed was more balanced? How would that affect the game? Would that really be desirable over the way it currently is and why?
    The only argument thusfar has been that it allows for more customization.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • swgohfan29 wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    My point in this discussion is that speed is the stat above all other stats. It’s the one thing we look for on every mod, and essentially gives a mod it’s worth. I could get a gold mod and if it doesn’t have speed somewhere on there, it might as well be junk. It’s not that speed is even necessarily bad, but that it’s value makes all other stats inferior. I can completely get behind the argument that turn order is important and that’s why modding speed should be a part of the strategy. That’s a fair point. But as it stands, the relative value of speed makes the rest of the mod stats junk.

    Sounds to me like you don't want to farm mods.
    Sure, speed is the most effective stat boost mods can provide. It's not even close to the other stat boosts, moreover, it's not "speed or", but "speed and". There's not point denying that eventhough in some cases it's beneficial to settle for less speed in order to get a more beneficial set bonus or primary.
    What i fail to see is why this is a bad thing. It's not balanced, for example a +24% tenacity boost is way worse than a 5.8% offence boost on pretty much every character ingame, not just on attackers. So it's not just speed that isn't ballanced. Why is that such a bad thing though? It not being balanced isn't an argument in favour of it needing to be changed, it's just an observation of the current situation. Somehow people think that ballance is always the awnser, yet in this game it's the imballances that make the game fun to play.
    Speed is awesome and allows players to have a better squad than others. Farming mods is a major pita, but it's worth it. Without speed on mods there would be little to nothing to gain from mods that would benefit the one player more than the other, thus effectively making them completely useless (since the other stat boost aside from speed are easily farmed, or don't have a large impact on gameplay).
    That said, i wouldn't mind if some of the other stats would have a bigger impact on battles. It could be beneficial to the game if the trade off between speed and other stat boosts wasn't so skewed. Then again, that would probably result in even more mod farming because the "perfect mod" would have to include even more key stats.
    Full disclosure, i farmed a fudge ton of mods. 746 currently equiped. Out of those 746, 480 have a speed secondary and 94 a speed primary. That leaves only 172 mods equiped without any form of a speed boost on them.

    Farming mods isn’t the issue. I’ve farmed them, everyone has farmed them, and I’m pretty sure nobody is going to stop farming them regardless of how they feel about their current state. My point is not to gripe about the current energy cost, time it takes to acquire mods, or a general self pity party over my personal RNG experience. If that is all you are taking from my argument, then you are missing my point. My point is a system that: 1) requires you to look for one stat to determine a mod’s worth, 2) ends with 95% of mods in the trash, and 3) provides very little in terms of actual customization of your characters is a system that deserves to be reexamined.
    Point 1 and 2 both indicate that farming mods is in fact the issue. Point 3 could be debated, but removing speed won't allow for more actual customazition of your characters.
    Also, i would definately stop farming mods if speed was removed.

    Agree to disagree then. Writing off my argument against speed on mods as a complaint against farming is the same as if I were to write of your defense of it as you being a whale heavily invested in the current system. It’s a fallacy of logic (ad hominem) and doesn’t serve any use in honest discussion. You see, whether I have many good speed mods or not does not validate or invalidate the claim that speed needs to be evaluated moving forward.
    What leef is saying is that he feels that the core message of your argument is that mod farming is bad. No it doesnt write of the argument, its just that he fells that you dont really know what you re impyling. And that is important, bcos you could. be fighting for the wrong thing.

    The core issue of my message is exactly what I said it is: speed is an unbalanced stat that devalues every other stat and hurts character customization for all the reasons I have listed. To deviate from exactly that which I have claimed is not an issue of what I am implying — it is an issue of what the reader is inferring. There is a difference. Especially since I’ve repeatedly denied that implication ( not that it should even matter, since it is a red herring).

    We complained about the speeds before mods - it's the mechanics that are strong and turn order is allowed to be paramount. Mods aren't driving the Need for Speed...it's the mechanics of the characters. You're barking up the wrong tree. Removing the ability to bump the speeds of some characters above their natural rate would make you more constrained to what the devs release. Similar to ships, a 1 speed difference on a released character could make or break it. You'd need character mechanics that fundamentally make taking first turns and consecutive turns detrimental.

    For example, what if there was a character with a unique that said at the start of an encounter, if the enemy took 3 or consecutive turns without any of their allies taking a turn than a 2 turn uncleansable and unresistable / unevadable ability block would be applied on the remaining enemy characters that haven't taken turns and 2 turn uncleansable and unresistable / unevadable offense down and speed down on the characters that already took turns....and the characters allies all gained offense up and 25% turn meter. That's an extreme example - but something like that would really fundamentally change the game.

    You could also have things in fighting games like a "combo breaker" toon that if the enemy took more than 4 turns (just an example) in a row at any point in the match something bad would happen to the enemy or something good for the allies to interrupt the combo string.

    To emphasize other stats capable of being beefed up through mods, they could create more powerful versions of the Bounty Hunter leader Boba has where they get more max health for Potency...they just need to go further with it. Like the DN lead - what if it converted protection in to health...but did it at 200% instead? People would be looking to maximize that protection than. They could even cheat somewhat and create a leader that added speed for varying levels of other stats...so take Boba's leader for example - let's say instead of gaining health for "X amount" of potency - all allies gained "X percent" of speed for combined potency amounts.

    The problem isn't speed on mods or even mods, it's just how they create their game. You can look to ship arena as an example of how they build and emphasize turns / damage since there's no mods there at all. TFP, FOTP and TM manipulation for more turns (Bistan / Reaper) are very dominant.
  • leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    All i see in this thread are arguments why speed is imbalanced, not why it's bad. What would change if speed was more balanced? How would that affect the game? Would that really be desirable over the way it currently is and why?
    Simple questions that are very difficult to awnser.

    Once again, you are asserting that imbalance does not equal bad without explanation of why that is (I infer that imbalance helps keep your perceived status quo over the peasants who don’t buy speed mods). I assert to the contrary that imbalance is bad because it offers less choice in customization and devalues every other stat. I assumed that you could derive the changes that would occur if speed was balanced by looking at exactly what I’ve just stated. But hey, I’ll spell it out. If speed was balanced there would: be more choices in customization and every other stat would have more value.

    Imbalance is good because it's why your choices matter. If everything was equal, it wouldn't matter what you chose.
    Imbalance is also good because it provides the oppertunity to become a king instead of remaining a peasant. We can't all be peasants or all kings, (i'm f2p btw, in case you were wondering)
    Imbalance basically makes competition possible in this game. Beating the AI isn't challenging at all, so outperforming your peers has to come from something else than "skill", in this case; mods. (and toons obviously, but having the same maxed toons as your peers isn't exactly uncommon)
    Now that we've got that out of the way, i wonder if you could actually anwser the questions.
    What would change if speed was more balanced? How would that affect the game? Would that really be desirable over the way it currently is and why?
    The only argument thusfar has been that it allows for more customization.

    “If everything was equal, it wouldn’t matter what you chose”.

    Ok so you’ve missed the entire point of this discussion. I can’t convince you that speed needs to be adjusted in mods, because I’d first have to convince you that balance is a good thing in a game...
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    All i see in this thread are arguments why speed is imbalanced, not why it's bad. What would change if speed was more balanced? How would that affect the game? Would that really be desirable over the way it currently is and why?
    Simple questions that are very difficult to awnser.

    Once again, you are asserting that imbalance does not equal bad without explanation of why that is (I infer that imbalance helps keep your perceived status quo over the peasants who don’t buy speed mods). I assert to the contrary that imbalance is bad because it offers less choice in customization and devalues every other stat. I assumed that you could derive the changes that would occur if speed was balanced by looking at exactly what I’ve just stated. But hey, I’ll spell it out. If speed was balanced there would: be more choices in customization and every other stat would have more value.

    Imbalance is good because it's why your choices matter. If everything was equal, it wouldn't matter what you chose.
    Imbalance is also good because it provides the oppertunity to become a king instead of remaining a peasant. We can't all be peasants or all kings, (i'm f2p btw, in case you were wondering)
    Imbalance basically makes competition possible in this game. Beating the AI isn't challenging at all, so outperforming your peers has to come from something else than "skill", in this case; mods. (and toons obviously, but having the same maxed toons as your peers isn't exactly uncommon)
    Now that we've got that out of the way, i wonder if you could actually anwser the questions.
    What would change if speed was more balanced? How would that affect the game? Would that really be desirable over the way it currently is and why?
    The only argument thusfar has been that it allows for more customization.

    “If everything was equal, it wouldn’t matter what you chose”.

    Ok so you’ve missed the entire point of this discussion. I can’t convince you that speed needs to be adjusted in mods, because I’d first have to convince you that balance is a good thing in a game...

    That's true. I don't think balance is a good thing in a game like this one. Imbalance is necessary, how much imbalance is open for debate.
    Honestly, and don't take this the wrong way, i really feel like your issue lies with mod farming, not with the speed on mods.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • swgohfan29 wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    My point in this discussion is that speed is the stat above all other stats. It’s the one thing we look for on every mod, and essentially gives a mod it’s worth. I could get a gold mod and if it doesn’t have speed somewhere on there, it might as well be junk. It’s not that speed is even necessarily bad, but that it’s value makes all other stats inferior. I can completely get behind the argument that turn order is important and that’s why modding speed should be a part of the strategy. That’s a fair point. But as it stands, the relative value of speed makes the rest of the mod stats junk.

    Sounds to me like you don't want to farm mods.
    Sure, speed is the most effective stat boost mods can provide. It's not even close to the other stat boosts, moreover, it's not "speed or", but "speed and". There's not point denying that eventhough in some cases it's beneficial to settle for less speed in order to get a more beneficial set bonus or primary.
    What i fail to see is why this is a bad thing. It's not balanced, for example a +24% tenacity boost is way worse than a 5.8% offence boost on pretty much every character ingame, not just on attackers. So it's not just speed that isn't ballanced. Why is that such a bad thing though? It not being balanced isn't an argument in favour of it needing to be changed, it's just an observation of the current situation. Somehow people think that ballance is always the awnser, yet in this game it's the imballances that make the game fun to play.
    Speed is awesome and allows players to have a better squad than others. Farming mods is a major pita, but it's worth it. Without speed on mods there would be little to nothing to gain from mods that would benefit the one player more than the other, thus effectively making them completely useless (since the other stat boost aside from speed are easily farmed, or don't have a large impact on gameplay).
    That said, i wouldn't mind if some of the other stats would have a bigger impact on battles. It could be beneficial to the game if the trade off between speed and other stat boosts wasn't so skewed. Then again, that would probably result in even more mod farming because the "perfect mod" would have to include even more key stats.
    Full disclosure, i farmed a fudge ton of mods. 746 currently equiped. Out of those 746, 480 have a speed secondary and 94 a speed primary. That leaves only 172 mods equiped without any form of a speed boost on them.

    Farming mods isn’t the issue. I’ve farmed them, everyone has farmed them, and I’m pretty sure nobody is going to stop farming them regardless of how they feel about their current state. My point is not to gripe about the current energy cost, time it takes to acquire mods, or a general self pity party over my personal RNG experience. If that is all you are taking from my argument, then you are missing my point. My point is a system that: 1) requires you to look for one stat to determine a mod’s worth, 2) ends with 95% of mods in the trash, and 3) provides very little in terms of actual customization of your characters is a system that deserves to be reexamined.
    Point 1 and 2 both indicate that farming mods is in fact the issue. Point 3 could be debated, but removing speed won't allow for more actual customazition of your characters.
    Also, i would definately stop farming mods if speed was removed.

    Agree to disagree then. Writing off my argument against speed on mods as a complaint against farming is the same as if I were to write of your defense of it as you being a whale heavily invested in the current system. It’s a fallacy of logic (ad hominem) and doesn’t serve any use in honest discussion. You see, whether I have many good speed mods or not does not validate or invalidate the claim that speed needs to be evaluated moving forward.
    What leef is saying is that he feels that the core message of your argument is that mod farming is bad. No it doesnt write of the argument, its just that he fells that you dont really know what you re impyling. And that is important, bcos you could. be fighting for the wrong thing.

    The core issue of my message is exactly what I said it is: speed is an unbalanced stat that devalues every other stat and hurts character customization for all the reasons I have listed. To deviate from exactly that which I have claimed is not an issue of what I am implying — it is an issue of what the reader is inferring. There is a difference. Especially since I’ve repeatedly denied that implication ( not that it should even matter, since it is a red herring).

    We complained about the speeds before mods - it's the mechanics that are strong and turn order is allowed to be paramount. Mods aren't driving the Need for Speed...it's the mechanics of the characters. You're barking up the wrong tree. Removing the ability to bump the speeds of some characters above their natural rate would make you more constrained to what the devs release. Similar to ships, a 1 speed difference on a released character could make or break it. You'd need character mechanics that fundamentally make taking first turns and consecutive turns detrimental.

    For example, what if there was a character with a unique that said at the start of an encounter, if the enemy took 3 or consecutive turns without any of their allies taking a turn than a 2 turn uncleansable and unresistable / unevadable ability block would be applied on the remaining enemy characters that haven't taken turns and 2 turn uncleansable and unresistable / unevadable offense down and speed down on the characters that already took turns....and the characters allies all gained offense up and 25% turn meter. That's an extreme example - but something like that would really fundamentally change the game.

    You could also have things in fighting games like a "combo breaker" toon that if the enemy took more than 4 turns (just an example) in a row at any point in the match something bad would happen to the enemy or something good for the allies to interrupt the combo string.

    To emphasize other stats capable of being beefed up through mods, they could create more powerful versions of the Bounty Hunter leader Boba has where they get more max health for Potency...they just need to go further with it. Like the DN lead - what if it converted protection in to health...but did it at 200% instead? People would be looking to maximize that protection than. They could even cheat somewhat and create a leader that added speed for varying levels of other stats...so take Boba's leader for example - let's say instead of gaining health for "X amount" of potency - all allies gained "X percent" of speed for combined potency amounts.

    The problem isn't speed on mods or even mods, it's just how they create their game. You can look to ship arena as an example of how they build and emphasize turns / damage since there's no mods there at all. TFP, FOTP and TM manipulation for more turns (Bistan / Reaper) are very dominant.

    I agree that if speed was unchangeable through mods, we would very much be at the mercy of the designers and their arbitrarily assigned base speed stats (I mean really, what’s the justification for Darth Maul being so slow?). Additionally, the ability to manipulate initial turn order in a battle is a fair strategic goal. So That’s why I’ve conceded that modding speed is necessary, however, I find that the imbalance of speed compared to every other stat in mods is creating a system of over reliance. For example, speed is the only stat that comes in a raw form on mods. By that I mean your primary on the arrow and those secondaries only read: speed +n (n being the number value assigned). Other stats are broken down into raw and percentage bonuses. That right out the gate gives speed a huge advantage from a simply mathematical aspect, as +30 speed is always always always going to be vastly preferable to +% accuracy/critical avoidance/offense/etc. (save the sole exception of possibly a tank with more protection). Therefore, you have the arrow slot with the most possible combinations, yet the fewest number of decent primary stats. You’re never excited to get a crit avoidance arrow, ever. So there’s no comparison, there’s no decision making process, there’s no strategic or tactical trade off: there’s only speed.
  • leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    All i see in this thread are arguments why speed is imbalanced, not why it's bad. What would change if speed was more balanced? How would that affect the game? Would that really be desirable over the way it currently is and why?
    Simple questions that are very difficult to awnser.

    Once again, you are asserting that imbalance does not equal bad without explanation of why that is (I infer that imbalance helps keep your perceived status quo over the peasants who don’t buy speed mods). I assert to the contrary that imbalance is bad because it offers less choice in customization and devalues every other stat. I assumed that you could derive the changes that would occur if speed was balanced by looking at exactly what I’ve just stated. But hey, I’ll spell it out. If speed was balanced there would: be more choices in customization and every other stat would have more value.

    Imbalance is good because it's why your choices matter. If everything was equal, it wouldn't matter what you chose.
    Imbalance is also good because it provides the oppertunity to become a king instead of remaining a peasant. We can't all be peasants or all kings, (i'm f2p btw, in case you were wondering)
    Imbalance basically makes competition possible in this game. Beating the AI isn't challenging at all, so outperforming your peers has to come from something else than "skill", in this case; mods. (and toons obviously, but having the same maxed toons as your peers isn't exactly uncommon)
    Now that we've got that out of the way, i wonder if you could actually anwser the questions.
    What would change if speed was more balanced? How would that affect the game? Would that really be desirable over the way it currently is and why?
    The only argument thusfar has been that it allows for more customization.

    “If everything was equal, it wouldn’t matter what you chose”.

    Ok so you’ve missed the entire point of this discussion. I can’t convince you that speed needs to be adjusted in mods, because I’d first have to convince you that balance is a good thing in a game...

    That's true. I don't think balance is a good thing in a game like this one. Imbalance is necessary, how much imbalance is open for debate.
    Honestly, and don't take this the wrong way, i really feel like your issue lies with mod farming, not with the speed on mods.

    Again, it’s not. The only thing that frustrates me about the farming process, is the fact that so many mods are going straight to the trash can. I’m not frustrated that speed is rare, or that I don’t have enough speed. I’m frustrated that there’s effectually no other place for the critical avoidance (as one of many examples) arrows to go except the garbage can. I attribute this frustration to a design flaw in stats, and the effect mods have on that. But rather than rewriting entire stats of every character in the game, I’m suggesting a bandaid for a bullet hole in the form of mod adjustment.
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    All i see in this thread are arguments why speed is imbalanced, not why it's bad. What would change if speed was more balanced? How would that affect the game? Would that really be desirable over the way it currently is and why?
    Simple questions that are very difficult to awnser.

    Once again, you are asserting that imbalance does not equal bad without explanation of why that is (I infer that imbalance helps keep your perceived status quo over the peasants who don’t buy speed mods). I assert to the contrary that imbalance is bad because it offers less choice in customization and devalues every other stat. I assumed that you could derive the changes that would occur if speed was balanced by looking at exactly what I’ve just stated. But hey, I’ll spell it out. If speed was balanced there would: be more choices in customization and every other stat would have more value.

    Imbalance is good because it's why your choices matter. If everything was equal, it wouldn't matter what you chose.
    Imbalance is also good because it provides the oppertunity to become a king instead of remaining a peasant. We can't all be peasants or all kings, (i'm f2p btw, in case you were wondering)
    Imbalance basically makes competition possible in this game. Beating the AI isn't challenging at all, so outperforming your peers has to come from something else than "skill", in this case; mods. (and toons obviously, but having the same maxed toons as your peers isn't exactly uncommon)
    Now that we've got that out of the way, i wonder if you could actually anwser the questions.
    What would change if speed was more balanced? How would that affect the game? Would that really be desirable over the way it currently is and why?
    The only argument thusfar has been that it allows for more customization.

    “If everything was equal, it wouldn’t matter what you chose”.

    Ok so you’ve missed the entire point of this discussion. I can’t convince you that speed needs to be adjusted in mods, because I’d first have to convince you that balance is a good thing in a game...

    That's true. I don't think balance is a good thing in a game like this one. Imbalance is necessary, how much imbalance is open for debate.
    Honestly, and don't take this the wrong way, i really feel like your issue lies with mod farming, not with the speed on mods.

    Again, it’s not. The only thing that frustrates me about the farming process, is the fact that so many mods are going straight to the trash can. I’m not frustrated that speed is rare, or that I don’t have enough speed. I’m frustrated that there’s effectually no other place for the critical avoidance (as one of many examples) arrows to go except the garbage can. I attribute this frustration to a design flaw in stats, and the effect mods have on that. But rather than rewriting entire stats of every character in the game, I’m suggesting a bandaid for a bullet hole in the form of mod adjustment.

    So you're frustrated that you're farming useless mods, yet you're not frustrated with farming mods, but with speed on mods. Gotcha. ;)
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    All i see in this thread are arguments why speed is imbalanced, not why it's bad. What would change if speed was more balanced? How would that affect the game? Would that really be desirable over the way it currently is and why?
    Simple questions that are very difficult to awnser.

    Once again, you are asserting that imbalance does not equal bad without explanation of why that is (I infer that imbalance helps keep your perceived status quo over the peasants who don’t buy speed mods). I assert to the contrary that imbalance is bad because it offers less choice in customization and devalues every other stat. I assumed that you could derive the changes that would occur if speed was balanced by looking at exactly what I’ve just stated. But hey, I’ll spell it out. If speed was balanced there would: be more choices in customization and every other stat would have more value.

    Imbalance is good because it's why your choices matter. If everything was equal, it wouldn't matter what you chose.
    Imbalance is also good because it provides the oppertunity to become a king instead of remaining a peasant. We can't all be peasants or all kings, (i'm f2p btw, in case you were wondering)
    Imbalance basically makes competition possible in this game. Beating the AI isn't challenging at all, so outperforming your peers has to come from something else than "skill", in this case; mods. (and toons obviously, but having the same maxed toons as your peers isn't exactly uncommon)
    Now that we've got that out of the way, i wonder if you could actually anwser the questions.
    What would change if speed was more balanced? How would that affect the game? Would that really be desirable over the way it currently is and why?
    The only argument thusfar has been that it allows for more customization.

    “If everything was equal, it wouldn’t matter what you chose”.

    Ok so you’ve missed the entire point of this discussion. I can’t convince you that speed needs to be adjusted in mods, because I’d first have to convince you that balance is a good thing in a game...

    That's true. I don't think balance is a good thing in a game like this one. Imbalance is necessary, how much imbalance is open for debate.
    Honestly, and don't take this the wrong way, i really feel like your issue lies with mod farming, not with the speed on mods.

    Again, it’s not. The only thing that frustrates me about the farming process, is the fact that so many mods are going straight to the trash can. I’m not frustrated that speed is rare, or that I don’t have enough speed. I’m frustrated that there’s effectually no other place for the critical avoidance (as one of many examples) arrows to go except the garbage can. I attribute this frustration to a design flaw in stats, and the effect mods have on that. But rather than rewriting entire stats of every character in the game, I’m suggesting a bandaid for a bullet hole in the form of mod adjustment.

    So you're frustrated that you're farming useless mods, yet you're not frustrated with farming mods, but with speed on mods. Gotcha. ;)

    I’m more frustrated trying to explain this in a way you can understand than I ever was with mods.
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    All i see in this thread are arguments why speed is imbalanced, not why it's bad. What would change if speed was more balanced? How would that affect the game? Would that really be desirable over the way it currently is and why?
    Simple questions that are very difficult to awnser.

    Once again, you are asserting that imbalance does not equal bad without explanation of why that is (I infer that imbalance helps keep your perceived status quo over the peasants who don’t buy speed mods). I assert to the contrary that imbalance is bad because it offers less choice in customization and devalues every other stat. I assumed that you could derive the changes that would occur if speed was balanced by looking at exactly what I’ve just stated. But hey, I’ll spell it out. If speed was balanced there would: be more choices in customization and every other stat would have more value.

    Imbalance is good because it's why your choices matter. If everything was equal, it wouldn't matter what you chose.
    Imbalance is also good because it provides the oppertunity to become a king instead of remaining a peasant. We can't all be peasants or all kings, (i'm f2p btw, in case you were wondering)
    Imbalance basically makes competition possible in this game. Beating the AI isn't challenging at all, so outperforming your peers has to come from something else than "skill", in this case; mods. (and toons obviously, but having the same maxed toons as your peers isn't exactly uncommon)
    Now that we've got that out of the way, i wonder if you could actually anwser the questions.
    What would change if speed was more balanced? How would that affect the game? Would that really be desirable over the way it currently is and why?
    The only argument thusfar has been that it allows for more customization.

    “If everything was equal, it wouldn’t matter what you chose”.

    Ok so you’ve missed the entire point of this discussion. I can’t convince you that speed needs to be adjusted in mods, because I’d first have to convince you that balance is a good thing in a game...

    That's true. I don't think balance is a good thing in a game like this one. Imbalance is necessary, how much imbalance is open for debate.
    Honestly, and don't take this the wrong way, i really feel like your issue lies with mod farming, not with the speed on mods.

    Again, it’s not. The only thing that frustrates me about the farming process, is the fact that so many mods are going straight to the trash can. I’m not frustrated that speed is rare, or that I don’t have enough speed. I’m frustrated that there’s effectually no other place for the critical avoidance (as one of many examples) arrows to go except the garbage can. I attribute this frustration to a design flaw in stats, and the effect mods have on that. But rather than rewriting entire stats of every character in the game, I’m suggesting a bandaid for a bullet hole in the form of mod adjustment.

    So you're frustrated that you're farming useless mods, yet you're not frustrated with farming mods, but with speed on mods. Gotcha. ;)

    I’m more frustrated trying to explain this in a way you can understand than I ever was with mods.

    haha, i know the feeling. I'm like 99% sure that in the long run you won't like the changes you proposed yourself if they were to be implemented, or atleast didn't have the desired effect you thought they would have.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • First off, let me say that although I am new to this game (about two months in), I am not new to games like this at all.

    Even at my current level (63), I already feel the negative impact of Speed mods. I ran into a QGJ lead team in Arena that I decided to fight as it looked like a pretty balanced fight (I didn't bother to check the mods and I should have). Long story short, my team barely even got a chance to attack. It wasn't fun; it was frustrating.

    Now, of course I could even the playing field by stacking Speed Mods, but 1) I'm not going to seriously start farming Mods until I am at least level 80; 2) I shouldn't have to run Speed just to have a chance to win. The Mods that I have chosen to use (admittedly at this point just a hodge podge of whatever I have that is best) should have SOME impact on the game, yet they don't. That is the problem with Speed currently.

    There is nothing wrong with Speed Mods, but they do give too much compared to other Mods. Whether Speed is nerfed, or other Mods are buffed, at the end of the day it's the same thing. It brings Speed more in line with everything else, and then you really have a chance to customize your toons to your playstyle, instead of simply keeping up with the Kardashians.

    And I find it funny that some people keep arguing that the game benefits from this imbalance. First of all, I think any person of average or better intelligence is well aware that perfect balance will never exist in any game ever (not even chess). But that doesn't mean that you stop trying to better balance the game. Second, points are brought up that you get a small advantage over your opponent by having those Speed Mods over them, except for the part where you don't because they more than likely have those same Mods.
  • Naraic
    2243 posts Member
    edited February 2018
    @Xoulrath are you sure that the qgj team had speed mods. His leadership gives a decent speed boost to Jedi allies.

    Anyway to be honest speed ruling is a fairly common theme in games like this.
  • @Naraic I am well aware of that. I've played every type of game on every type of format (card games, minis, console, pc, mobile) that there is. This isn't the first game where speed was prioritized over everything else.

    And being the competitive player that I am, I just go along with the status quo, otherwise I leave myself at a disadvantage which I am unwilling to do. So I begrudgingly stack speed in games like this (where it is pretty much necessary).

    My whole point is that I wish that it wasn't. I'm all for speed and I would still use it for certain toons even if it were brought more in line with other Mods. But as it stands now, you pretty much have to have it just to keep up. And this was the same case in other games that I have played. Stack speed, go before your opponent, drop CC, easy and unsatisfying win. I'll play the game of Speed if I have to, because I want to win. I just wish it wasn't the only option (which it currently is).

    As for QGJ, I have faced plenty of them at lead, and this one was definitely modded for Speed. His entire team got in two turns each before I even got to move, and I was already down one toon on my side. It is what it is, and until I'm at least 80, I'm not really putting in any effort to farm Mods as I just started unlocking 5s. But when the time comes, unless CG changes Speed Mods, I'll be farming them like crazy, not because I want to, but because I have to. Which kind of defeats the point of Mods in the first place.
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    Xoulrath wrote: »

    And I find it funny that some people keep arguing that the game benefits from this imbalance. First of all, I think any person of average or better intelligence is well aware that perfect balance will never exist in any game ever (not even chess). But that doesn't mean that you stop trying to better balance the game. Second, points are brought up that you get a small advantage over your opponent by having those Speed Mods over them, except for the part where you don't because they more than likely have those same Mods.

    I'm fairly certain no one in this discussion actually thinks perfect balance is possible. I'm also fairly certain the devs aren't even trying to come as close as possible to perfect balance, wich actually makes the game more fun to play (eventhough it may not seem like that at times). If that is what you meant with "trying to better balance the game".
    And no, i've got better mods(read: higher speed) than the overwhelming majority of my leaderboard. It's one of the reasons i'm able to compete for top ranks. That's not a bragg, that's just the way it is. The advantage isn't that small either, superior mods win battles on both offence and defence.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • leef wrote: »
    Xoulrath wrote: »

    And I find it funny that some people keep arguing that the game benefits from this imbalance. First of all, I think any person of average or better intelligence is well aware that perfect balance will never exist in any game ever (not even chess). But that doesn't mean that you stop trying to better balance the game. Second, points are brought up that you get a small advantage over your opponent by having those Speed Mods over them, except for the part where you don't because they more than likely have those same Mods.

    I'm fairly certain no one in this discussion actually thinks perfect balance is possible. I'm also fairly certain the devs aren't even trying to come as close as possible to perfect balance, wich actually makes the game more fun to play (eventhough it may not seem like that at times). If that is what you meant with "trying to better balance the game".
    And no, i've got better mods(read: higher speed) than the overwhelming majority of my leaderboard. It's one of the reasons i'm able to compete for top ranks. That's not a bragg, that's just the way it is. The advantage isn't that small either, superior mods win battles on both offence and defence.

    We get it, you don’t like balance. Take a poll and I would wager that you are in the minority with that belief.
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    leef wrote: »
    Xoulrath wrote: »

    And I find it funny that some people keep arguing that the game benefits from this imbalance. First of all, I think any person of average or better intelligence is well aware that perfect balance will never exist in any game ever (not even chess). But that doesn't mean that you stop trying to better balance the game. Second, points are brought up that you get a small advantage over your opponent by having those Speed Mods over them, except for the part where you don't because they more than likely have those same Mods.

    I'm fairly certain no one in this discussion actually thinks perfect balance is possible. I'm also fairly certain the devs aren't even trying to come as close as possible to perfect balance, wich actually makes the game more fun to play (eventhough it may not seem like that at times). If that is what you meant with "trying to better balance the game".
    And no, i've got better mods(read: higher speed) than the overwhelming majority of my leaderboard. It's one of the reasons i'm able to compete for top ranks. That's not a bragg, that's just the way it is. The advantage isn't that small either, superior mods win battles on both offence and defence.

    We get it, you don’t like balance. Take a poll and I would wager that you are in the minority with that belief.

    You actually don't like balance either, you just think you do.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    Xoulrath wrote: »

    And I find it funny that some people keep arguing that the game benefits from this imbalance. First of all, I think any person of average or better intelligence is well aware that perfect balance will never exist in any game ever (not even chess). But that doesn't mean that you stop trying to better balance the game. Second, points are brought up that you get a small advantage over your opponent by having those Speed Mods over them, except for the part where you don't because they more than likely have those same Mods.

    I'm fairly certain no one in this discussion actually thinks perfect balance is possible. I'm also fairly certain the devs aren't even trying to come as close as possible to perfect balance, wich actually makes the game more fun to play (eventhough it may not seem like that at times). If that is what you meant with "trying to better balance the game".
    And no, i've got better mods(read: higher speed) than the overwhelming majority of my leaderboard. It's one of the reasons i'm able to compete for top ranks. That's not a bragg, that's just the way it is. The advantage isn't that small either, superior mods win battles on both offence and defence.

    We get it, you don’t like balance. Take a poll and I would wager that you are in the minority with that belief.

    You actually don't like balance either, you just think you do.

    Pineapple belongs on pizza. This is the balance I seek.
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    Xoulrath wrote: »

    And I find it funny that some people keep arguing that the game benefits from this imbalance. First of all, I think any person of average or better intelligence is well aware that perfect balance will never exist in any game ever (not even chess). But that doesn't mean that you stop trying to better balance the game. Second, points are brought up that you get a small advantage over your opponent by having those Speed Mods over them, except for the part where you don't because they more than likely have those same Mods.

    I'm fairly certain no one in this discussion actually thinks perfect balance is possible. I'm also fairly certain the devs aren't even trying to come as close as possible to perfect balance, wich actually makes the game more fun to play (eventhough it may not seem like that at times). If that is what you meant with "trying to better balance the game".
    And no, i've got better mods(read: higher speed) than the overwhelming majority of my leaderboard. It's one of the reasons i'm able to compete for top ranks. That's not a bragg, that's just the way it is. The advantage isn't that small either, superior mods win battles on both offence and defence.

    We get it, you don’t like balance. Take a poll and I would wager that you are in the minority with that belief.

    You actually don't like balance either, you just think you do.

    Pineapple belongs on pizza. This is the balance I seek.

    Now you're really just talking crazy ^_^
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • @Funderbolts I can no longer agree with you sir. You have just ruined a perfectly good pizza. I'll take my pineapple a la carte, or in an upside down cake. These are the only acceptable balance mods for pineapple.
  • Having such large speed mods is like having one gigantic pineapple slice covering the entire pizza. There is no room for pepperoni, cheese, or ham. Poor little critical avoidance is ham. Balance is having the choice to say you don’t like pineapple, and would rather have ham.
  • Having such large speed mods is like having one gigantic pineapple slice covering the entire pizza. There is no room for pepperoni, cheese, or ham. Poor little critical avoidance is ham. Balance is having the choice to say you don’t like pineapple, and would rather have ham.

    Wa-Wait.. what speed? this? :flushed:
    20180213_224125.jpg
  • RacerDejak wrote: »
    Having such large speed mods is like having one gigantic pineapple slice covering the entire pizza. There is no room for pepperoni, cheese, or ham. Poor little critical avoidance is ham. Balance is having the choice to say you don’t like pineapple, and would rather have ham.

    Wa-Wait.. what speed? this? :flushed:
    20180213_224125.jpg

    See, that example there is an 81% increase in speed through mods. If you could achieve an 81% increase in offense through the same means, it would be absurd. But it’s basically the same thing, because DPS is affected by damage output over speed. If speed can be increased that drastically, not only are you getting the turn order advantage, which affects the battle greatly, but also you’re getting way more DPS per character. It’s offense, but better.
  • We were told the entire purpose of mods was to create character diversity. If that were true it would have been great for the game. Instead there is a right way to mod each character and mods have really just been a way to increase the grind and extract more money from players. If the stats were more balanced then we would have more choices and mods and character customization would be a lot more fun. As someone who loves to theory craft, this would add an extra element to designing teams that would be a ton of fun. But it’s just grind and stack speed instead.
  • TVF
    31052 posts Member
    Having such large speed mods is like having one gigantic pineapple slice covering the entire pizza. There is no room for pepperoni, cheese, or ham. Poor little critical avoidance is ham. Balance is having the choice to say you don’t like pineapple, and would rather have ham.

    Reported for hate speech against ham. ;)
    The CGDF is no more. Now we hate CG because of conquest. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • So far I’ve really loved throwing away every gold and purple mod I’ve received from mythic event rewards. The intent of handing us more mod rewards was to alleviate the horrible mod grind forced upon the community. But there’s no alleviating the fact that every mod you hand out that doesn’t have speed, is a worthless mod. That’s because the mod farm isn’t broken, speed is.
  • TVF
    31052 posts Member
    But there’s no alleviating the fact that every mod you hand out that doesn’t have speed, is a worthless mod.

    Thanks to the introduction of TB and TW, this is not true for non-endgame players. Especially if you're still improving your roster for those events.
    The CGDF is no more. Now we hate CG because of conquest. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
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