Please fix Qui-Gon's Humbling Blow

2Next

Replies

  • Heisen
    364 posts Member

    You'd still be proccing Savage's self buff and Kylo's counter. What is the point of doing it the way you describe if you have to "tweak more things individually" anyway? Why are you still arguing at this point at all?

    What I said there and what I said before to fix the Savage case aren't mutually exclusive. Assuming this is a simple case of rearranging the order of operations in the code you can fix both the Savage/Kylo case and the case where you don't get the buff after a killing blow. That being said, I don't wish to get into a technical argument about how to go about fixing it because a) that's not my job and b) it might be more complicated than we think.

    I understand that it's supposed to be situational, but that doesn't automatically justify your position. You can't know the opinions of the devs any more than I can, and once again, they've already said it's not working as intended.

    Exactly! What you're failing to realize is that this applies to your opinions as well, but you seem to be speaking as everything you mention is an objective truth. The only thing we (sort of) know is that the devs want to fix the case where killing a buffed target with humbling blow never grants offense up. But then you go on to extend this into assuming that the case where advantage falls off because of the damage and not granting offense up must also be a bug when it's probably not. The damage portion coming first is likely intentional because they may not have wanted it to serve as a hard counter to foresight. Heck, for all we know the interaction with Savage could be intentional even though we both doubt it.

    You've also conveniently elected to ignore that Foresight itself is also bugged, thus already needing a re-work, anyway. This is interesting, given that it benefits you as a Yoda player. Megadeth3700 has imo correctly ascertained that you only want to see changes that benefit you, personally, which is fairly obvious at this point.

    I've ignored the foresight part because that sounds like a separate bug to me. As for arguing for what benefits me - you just want QGJ's humbling blow to be even more powerful so you can even more easily roll over the Poe/RG teams. See? I can play that game too, but let's not.

    p.s. I have QGJ but not Yoda or Rey
  • lunarwolf
    357 posts Member
    edited March 2016
    agreed.

    however I think Harmonious Assault CD should be increased. my QGJ is lvl 50 and can use Harmonious Assault every other turn. tbh that is ridiculous for burst dps characters. burst dps should do high initial dps, subsequent attacks should be lower dps, buff self-defense or enemy debuffs. as it stands QGJ can burst dps and sustain it with the low CD on Humbling Blow and his quick speed (+turn meter boost base attack).

    don't get me wrong I love my QGJ and use him, but if I am being honest and I compare him to the amount of useless or not viable characters in this game, he is a bit unbalanced

    my 2 cents

  • Telaan
    3454 posts Member
    edited March 2016
    lunarwolf wrote: »
    agreed.

    however I think Harmonious Assault CD should be increased. my QGJ is lvl 50 and can use Harmonious Assault every other turn. tbh that is ridiculous for burst dps characters. burst dps should do high initial dps, subsequent attacks should be lower dps, buff self-defense or enemy debuffs. as it stands QGJ can burst dps and sustain it with the low CD on Humbling Blow and his quick speed (+turn meter boost base attack).

    don't get me wrong I love my QGJ and use him, but if I am being honest and I compare him to the amount of useless or not viable characters in this game, he is a bit unbalanced

    my 2 cents

    QGJ gets one shotted and is one of the most easily cc'd toons in the game. Harmonious Assault hits for less than GS swarm; a toon which also only has its assist on a one turn cd, can't be one shotted, passively gains offense on its basic which also hits harder than QGJ's basic, is not easily cc'd, is faster when QGJ is not leader, and is more easily farmed.

    So how is QGJ op again? I crush team running him ever single day.
  • Also double his leadership stats or bring to at least +80 speed and triple his HP.
  • Telaan wrote: »
    TMRevan wrote: »
    TMRevan wrote: »
    No, he's already powerful enough

    It's a bug.

    How do u know that? I think its working as intended

    Because they acknowledged it as such in the past. It's one of the reasons that the team does not get buffed if QGJ kills his target in the process of stripping the buff with it. It's apparently on their to-do list.

    Also when he removed Kylo's counter buff Kylo still counter's him anyways. This is another bug for this move.

    It's the same bug. If you think of the effects of Humbling Blow as damage+buff removal+supplying the team with one turn of offense up if the buff removal is successful, it makes much more sense.

    Like I said, the damage portion of the attack just needs to go into effect AFTER the buff removal effect has had a chance to go off. If this were the case, we would be seeing the offense up group buff on a kill, or (if it's the second hit) after advantage was removed, and wouldn't be able to do it to an unbuffered Savage, and wouldn't see Kylo counter 'after' the buff was removed.
    Heisen wrote: »
    I feel like this is working as intended. It's meant to deal damage then dispel, not dispel then deal damage.

    Like I said, the Savage Opress example shows that it's clearly not working as intended. Kylo's counter going off 'after' it's been removed is also a clear sign of the same thing. This is a bug, and it's potentially exploitable. I posted this thread to ask that it be taken seriously.

    That being said, if you and TMRevan don't use him, and think he's too powerful already, then that's a different conversation entirely. I encourage either of you to open a new thread and state your case.

    Sorry bro, but I use him and have him 7*, still think is working as intended. Just like u said, is like his damage comes before the dispel.
  • MeetraSurik
    313 posts Member
    edited March 2016
    Heisen wrote: »

    You'd still be proccing Savage's self buff and Kylo's counter. What is the point of doing it the way you describe if you have to "tweak more things individually" anyway? Why are you still arguing at this point at all?

    What I said there and what I said before to fix the Savage case aren't mutually exclusive. Assuming this is a simple case of rearranging the order of operations in the code you can fix both the Savage/Kylo case and the case where you don't get the buff after a killing blow. That being said, I don't wish to get into a technical argument about how to go about fixing it because a) that's not my job and b) it might be more complicated than we think.

    But we're already in a technical discussion. You said they shouldn't reverse the order that effects are handled, and said it was because they'd have to change too many things after that. I pointed out the things that would need changed either way, and now you don't want to get in a technical discussion. I'd like to know why you still don't want to change the the order of effect handling, given that I've now pointed out multiple times that your "
    Heisen wrote: »

    I understand that it's supposed to be situational, but that doesn't automatically justify your position. You can't know the opinions of the devs any more than I can, and once again, they've already said it's not working as intended.

    Exactly! What you're failing to realize is that this applies to your opinions as well, but you seem to be speaking as everything you mention is an objective truth. The only thing we (sort of) know is that the devs want to fix the case where killing a buffed target with humbling blow never grants offense up. But then you go on to extend this into assuming that the case where advantage falls off because of the damage and not granting offense up must also be a bug when it's probably not. The damage portion coming first is likely intentional because they may not have wanted it to serve as a hard counter to foresight. Heck, for all we know the interaction with Savage could be intentional even though we both doubt it.

    I never said I was objectively correct; I only laid out the reasons I'd judged that the damage was coming before the proc effects, and what that would then mean procedurally. It was kind of implied that it was supposition, given that I can't know what's actually going in the code, just like you can't know what's going on inside the heads of the devs.

    Now, I'd like to further break down why the advantage example is so determinate to me. For a normal character, advantage will be applied, then after that character takes two hits, the buff disappears. Now QGJ can remove advantage on the first hit with Humbling Blow, and buff his team, as you'd expect. On the second hit, he'll still remove the buff, but won't get the offense up for his team. This, to me, makes it obvious that the attack is coming first.

    So obviously, intent is that HB is supposed to remove Advantage. That it will in the first attack but not the second is a bug. The interactions with Kylo's and Savage's abilities are bugs. I have submitted the reason for these bugs, that the attack is coming first, and proposed that it be changed, for the better of the game, because it affects not only QGJ, but other characters as well, like Yoda, Daka, JC, or Barriss, just to name a few. Anyone with an on-hit effect that procs a buff during a kill shot isn't getting the benefit of that buff right now. That you're ok with this, and apparently think that it's intended, baffles me.
    Heisen wrote: »
    You've also conveniently elected to ignore that Foresight itself is also bugged, thus already needing a re-work, anyway. This is interesting, given that it benefits you as a Yoda player. Megadeth3700 has imo correctly ascertained that you only want to see changes that benefit you, personally, which is fairly obvious at this point.

    I've ignored the foresight part because that sounds like a separate bug to me. As for arguing for what benefits me - you just want QGJ's humbling blow to be even more powerful so you can even more easily roll over the Poe/RG teams. See? I can play that game too, but let's not.

    p.s. I have QGJ but not Yoda or Rey

    I brought up the foresight issue because, again, more things need changed than just reworking HB. You're changing your argument so much that it's now probably not obvious, at this point.

    1) Me: Attacks need reworked, so that damage comes after procs.
    2) You:
    Heisen wrote: »
    Simply switching the damage and dispel component is not the answer though, that's for sure. Because then you run into the foresight issue and having to tweak more things individually.
    3) Me: Not only does that not by itself not fix the issue without needing tons more changes on top, but Foresight itself still needs a rework anyway, so they might as well fix both at the same time. For the umpteenth time, you can't say that having to tweak more things individually is a reason to not do it while at the same time having to tweak more things individually.

    As for you not using QGJ, I was apparently wrong. For what it's worth, I hardly "Roll over" any team in the current meta, Poe or not. Were this fixed, it would just take out one auto-lose condition when I face these teams, and make the game better overall due to more abilities working when they're supposed to.

    Furthermore, even with this change, QGJ still wouldn't be as powerful as GS, who has survived multiple updates with a very similar, but superior, skill set.
    TMRevan wrote: »
    Telaan wrote: »
    TMRevan wrote: »
    TMRevan wrote: »
    No, he's already powerful enough

    It's a bug.

    How do u know that? I think its working as intended

    Because they acknowledged it as such in the past. It's one of the reasons that the team does not get buffed if QGJ kills his target in the process of stripping the buff with it. It's apparently on their to-do list.

    Also when he removed Kylo's counter buff Kylo still counter's him anyways. This is another bug for this move.

    It's the same bug. If you think of the effects of Humbling Blow as damage+buff removal+supplying the team with one turn of offense up if the buff removal is successful, it makes much more sense.

    Like I said, the damage portion of the attack just needs to go into effect AFTER the buff removal effect has had a chance to go off. If this were the case, we would be seeing the offense up group buff on a kill, or (if it's the second hit) after advantage was removed, and wouldn't be able to do it to an unbuffered Savage, and wouldn't see Kylo counter 'after' the buff was removed.
    Heisen wrote: »
    I feel like this is working as intended. It's meant to deal damage then dispel, not dispel then deal damage.

    Like I said, the Savage Opress example shows that it's clearly not working as intended. Kylo's counter going off 'after' it's been removed is also a clear sign of the same thing. This is a bug, and it's potentially exploitable. I posted this thread to ask that it be taken seriously.

    That being said, if you and TMRevan don't use him, and think he's too powerful already, then that's a different conversation entirely. I encourage either of you to open a new thread and state your case.

    Sorry bro, but I use him and have him 7*, still think is working as intended. Just like u said, is like his damage comes before the dispel.

    It's not working as intended. On-hit effects should be being applied on kill hits, but aren't.
  • Heisen
    364 posts Member
    Now, I'd like to further break down why the advantage example is so determinate to me. For a normal character, advantage will be applied, then after that character takes two hits, the buff disappears. Now QGJ can remove advantage on the first hit with Humbling Blow, and buff his team, as you'd expect. On the second hit, he'll still remove the buff, but won't get the offense up for his team. This, to me, makes it obvious that the attack is coming first.
    So obviously, intent is that HB is supposed to remove Advantage. That it will in the first attack but not the second is a bug. The interactions with Kylo's and Savage's abilities are bugs. I have submitted the reason for these bugs, that the attack is coming first, and proposed that it be changed, for the better of the game, because it affects not only QGJ, but other characters as well, like Yoda, Daka, JC, or Barriss, just to name a few. Anyone with an on-hit effect that procs a buff during a kill shot isn't getting the benefit of that buff right now. That you're ok with this, and apparently think that it's intended, baffles me.

    Yes, the damage knocking off advantage is being prioritized before humbling blow's dispel effect. Until the devs state otherwise, you can't really say for certain that this is a bug. The death being triggered might be another action in the code so there's no real reason to assume these issues (where killing blows don't grant offense up) are one and the same. Saying this is a bug is the same as saying it is a bug that you still have to hit a stealthed taunter. That's because in this game, taunt is currently prioritized over the stealth mechanic. In other games it could be the other way around. Again it's simply up to the devs to decide what's prioritized over what.

    Now I would be interested if you can elaborate a bit more on how this issue is affecting other characters that you mentioned. Are you suggesting that Daka never stuns a secondary target when she gets a killing blow? Because as a frequent Daka user I can assure you that is not the case. Similarly with Bariss, her invigorating strike does indeed have a chance to heal regardless if she gets the killing blow or not. Perhaps this issue is not as game-wide as you believe or am I missing something here?
  • Heisen wrote: »
    Now, I'd like to further break down why the advantage example is so determinate to me. For a normal character, advantage will be applied, then after that character takes two hits, the buff disappears. Now QGJ can remove advantage on the first hit with Humbling Blow, and buff his team, as you'd expect. On the second hit, he'll still remove the buff, but won't get the offense up for his team. This, to me, makes it obvious that the attack is coming first.
    So obviously, intent is that HB is supposed to remove Advantage. That it will in the first attack but not the second is a bug. The interactions with Kylo's and Savage's abilities are bugs. I have submitted the reason for these bugs, that the attack is coming first, and proposed that it be changed, for the better of the game, because it affects not only QGJ, but other characters as well, like Yoda, Daka, JC, or Barriss, just to name a few. Anyone with an on-hit effect that procs a buff during a kill shot isn't getting the benefit of that buff right now. That you're ok with this, and apparently think that it's intended, baffles me.

    Yes, the damage knocking off advantage is being prioritized before humbling blow's dispel effect. Until the devs state otherwise, you can't really say for certain that this is a bug. The death being triggered might be another action in the code so there's no real reason to assume these issues (where killing blows don't grant offense up) are one and the same. Saying this is a bug is the same as saying it is a bug that you still have to hit a stealthed taunter. That's because in this game, taunt is currently prioritized over the stealth mechanic. In other games it could be the other way around. Again it's simply up to the devs to decide what's prioritized over what.

    Now I would be interested if you can elaborate a bit more on how this issue is affecting other characters that you mentioned. Are you suggesting that Daka never stuns a secondary target when she gets a killing blow? Because as a frequent Daka user I can assure you that is not the case. Similarly with Bariss, her invigorating strike does indeed have a chance to heal regardless if she gets the killing blow or not. Perhaps this issue is not as game-wide as you believe or am I missing something here?

    Again, I never said for certain that it is definitely a bug. I am postulating, as to do otherwise would be to say that I know the minds of the devs. To say that this is on the level of taunt/stealth is a bit disingenuous, though, due to the multitude of effects that are working counter to one would expect because of it. The advantage case especially, or Savage, are obviously (to me) not behaving how they should. If you believe that these are working intended, that's great, but I'd like more than just your constant restating of that opinion. Take the advantage case especially, why do you believe that it's supposed to be granting offense up on the first attack, but knock it off on the second? That was actually why I'd originally accused you of only wanting to see changes that didn't benefit QGJ, because that's a clear example (to me) of clunky, half-broken interactions. Ditto for the Savage case.

    I am very intrigued that you've seen Daka double-stun on killing blow. I haven't, ever. Now as far as Barriss, I wouldn't be able to say, because I only very rarely use her, even for GW. If this issue isn't as prevalent as I'd first thought, then that's great, and actually gives me hope that it'll actually be fixed at some point, at least for killing blows. Although, it does make me wonder why you think that a killing blow should give Barriss' team the heal, but not give QGJ's team offense up...
  • Heisen
    364 posts Member


    I am very intrigued that you've seen Daka double-stun on killing blow. I haven't, ever.

    Do you mean like this?

    ucNoU57.png
    K3AtSo4.png

    And as for Bariss

    bNOKpZW.png

    The reason it works for Bariss is that the heal proc is simply rolled for after the damage part and doesn't care about what happens to the target. Daka's case is even less relevant here because her secondary stun is just a separate roll. In QGJ's case, it's a little more complicated because it has too fetch more information from the target.

    They are totally different animals so I don't see any real inconsistency here. The only thing that really needs fixing IMO is the Savage case. This can and should be handled separately by the devs as they did with Asajj's rampage falling off when she got the killing blows. Other than that all I can say is that it is in my opinion that everything else with Humbling Blow is okay and seems intuitive to me.
  • Heisen wrote: »

    I am very intrigued that you've seen Daka double-stun on killing blow. I haven't, ever.

    Do you mean like this?

    ucNoU57.png
    K3AtSo4.png

    And as for Bariss

    bNOKpZW.png

    The reason it works for Bariss is that the heal proc is simply rolled for after the damage part and doesn't care about what happens to the target. Daka's case is even less relevant here because her secondary stun is just a separate roll. In QGJ's case, it's a little more complicated because it has too fetch more information from the target.

    They are totally different animals so I don't see any real inconsistency here. The only thing that really needs fixing IMO is the Savage case. This can and should be handled separately by the devs as they did with Asajj's rampage falling off when she got the killing blows. Other than that all I can say is that it is in my opinion that everything else with Humbling Blow is okay and seems intuitive to me.

    Nice screens! I stand corrected! I was definitely wrong about it affecting those extra examples, then.

    I still would like to see a more comprehensive change than just Savage's self-buffs, though. I'm (obviously) unconvinced that HB is working as intended in any of the examples I'd pointed out, but intent is not the sort of thing that can be substantiated with the info available. It really doesn't matter how it's done, so long as those clunky interactions, especially killing blows, are sorted out.
  • Heisen wrote: »

    I am very intrigued that you've seen Daka double-stun on killing blow. I haven't, ever.

    Do you mean like this?

    ucNoU57.png
    K3AtSo4.png

    And as for Bariss

    bNOKpZW.png

    The reason it works for Bariss is that the heal proc is simply rolled for after the damage part and doesn't care about what happens to the target. Daka's case is even less relevant here because her secondary stun is just a separate roll. In QGJ's case, it's a little more complicated because it has too fetch more information from the target.

    They are totally different animals so I don't see any real inconsistency here. The only thing that really needs fixing IMO is the Savage case. This can and should be handled separately by the devs as they did with Asajj's rampage falling off when she got the killing blows. Other than that all I can say is that it is in my opinion that everything else with Humbling Blow is okay and seems intuitive to me.

    Nice screens! I stand corrected! I was definitely wrong about it affecting those extra examples, then.

    I still would like to see a more comprehensive change than just Savage's self-buffs, though. I'm (obviously) unconvinced that HB is working as intended in any of the examples I'd pointed out, but intent is not the sort of thing that can be substantiated with the info available. It really doesn't matter how it's done, so long as those clunky interactions, especially killing blows, are sorted out.

    Agreed, I still think it needs to be fixed. It's very frustrating not to gain offence up on killing blow, no offense on second advantage hit and getting countered by Kylo after removal with sometime being hit with healing immunity and so on. All of these seemingly broken functions appear to be caused by the damage occurring before the buff removal. Aside from frustrations and forgetting the fact that the dev's already posted that is not working as intended. Using the advantage is the perfect example to show/explain why it IS broken. It works on the first advantage tells us that it is supposed to give offence of from someone with advantage. Therefore the fact that it does not on the second hit indicates that is indeed broken.

    Besides, the same broken function issue affects Mace Windu's Smite, removes Kylo's counter then gets hit with healing immunity....

    Changing it to buff removal then damage would change the Savage, Kylo, killing blow, and advantage bug.
    ☮ Consular ☮
  • Too bad this fix wasn't in the last update...
    ☮ Consular ☮
Sign In or Register to comment.