That’s kinda the idea here I want to be sure CG see the multi threads to hopefully have the issue recognized
Trust me, they've seen them, a couple CG_(whoever's) have commented on the others, I for one definitely want the challenge gear removed, and it's rough on my guild, when we take a few days to be tier 4 of the raid, to essentially just get some guild currency..
Our first attempt at the raid had full participation. The numbers have dwindled down so bad it's taking way longer to finish. I asked the members why so few are hitting it and most said the gear rewards with a couple feeling overwhelmed by the daily needs.
Not expecting to get the elusive stun guns at tier 4 but the challenge gear in a new raid is a kick in the teeth. I think the more exposure of the gear issue the more likely it'll change. Right now, it's damaging guild morale on more than one level.
Fingers crossed at least the challenge gear is removed.
I have gotten full pieces on Heroic. I think the Sith Raid are very good actually. The only fix I could see is if they make the G12 gear higher numbers than 2 and 3 pieces.
I think the Rancor Raid needs to increase more pieces
Tenacity & HP-Pool is WAI
What does that mean?
Some new characters will arrive that either ignore tenacity or maybe have built-in abilities regarding high HP-pools, maybe even both...
Cannot think of anything else, as they‘ve stated that level cap and mod tier increase is not coming anytime „soon“ (we all know „soon“)
IMO a sneaky way around after expose nerf, but the only one I can currently imagine
Sith Raid Abilities:
I just faced Traya & activated Stand Alone on OB.
Every time he gained any TM either one of the Lightsabers removed it all, or Traya did. Repeatedly.
I did not get a single attack from Stand Alone and OB died when it finished.
None of Traya's abilities listed in the Raid Description state that they remove TM.
None of the Lightsaber abilities state that they remove TM.
Yet I was stuck in the reverse situation of the STH loop & lost both Stand Alone & my character.
Sith Raid Abilities:
I just faced Traya & activated Stand Alone on OB.
Every time he gained any TM either one of the Lightsabers removed it all, or Traya did. Repeatedly.
I did not get a single attack from Stand Alone and OB died when it finished.
None of Traya's abilities listed in the Raid Description state that they remove TM.
None of the Lightsaber abilities state that they remove TM.
Yet I was stuck in the reverse situation of the STH loop & lost both Stand Alone & my character.
Is this WAI?
Sabers without either foresight or retribution will stagger their target, which will have their TM removed the next time they are hit. It's possible that the stagger icon isn't appearing, but this is likely what's happening.
Sabers without either foresight or retribution will stagger their target, which will have their TM removed the next time they are hit. It's possible that the stagger icon isn't appearing, but this is likely what's happening.
Thank you for your assistance.
I definitely did not have the little man Stagger icon, the Lightsabers inflicted Daze on me & I was also Isolated (that's the locked icon, right?) by Traya.
I had roughly 60% TM and they hit again.
The first one removed all TM, the second one removed the small amount gained, the 3rd did not.
Then Traya hit me and removed the 40% that had built up.
Is that what Stagger does? Makes it so that next time you're hit you lose all TM?
Sabers without either foresight or retribution will stagger their target, which will have their TM removed the next time they are hit. It's possible that the stagger icon isn't appearing, but this is likely what's happening.
Thank you for your assistance.
I definitely did not have the Stagger icon (that's the locked icon, right?), the Lightsabers inflicted Daze on me & I was also Isolated by Traya.
I had roughly 60% TM and they hit again.
The first one removed all TM, the second one removed the small amount gained, the 3rd did not.
Then Traya hit me and removed the 40% that had built up.
Is that what Stagger does? Makes it so that next time you're hit you lose all TM?
Thank you, it is the little man I was thinking of. I definitely did not have that icon.
The 3 Lightsabers all attacked, as did Traya. At the end of their attacks I had the locked Isolated icon & the spiral Daze icon only, then they attacked again.
The first Lightsaber removed all TM.
The same debuffs remained active and the 2nd Lightsaber then removed all TM again. Twice in a row.
The 3rd did not remove any and I went to around 40% then Tray hit me with lightning and I lost all TM again.
Now I may have missed the Stagger icon once, don't think that I did, but is a possibility.
However, if the debuff is removed when I lose my TM, then I don't understand how it can happen from 2 Lightsaber attacks in a row?
Do you think that maybe the first one removed the debuff & my TM, then gave me back the debuff again?
That would seem to be the beginning of an infinite TM loop, until Stand Alone ends.
Like I mentioned before, it's possible that the stagger icon simply isn't showing up, because the sabers should be applying stagger. And that would explain the TMR you're seeing. So, it's likely a visual bug, and not a bug in the actual mechanics.
Personally, I think it's a cheese mechanic implemented by the devs.... just as cheesy as the STHan mechanics that were immediately nerfed because it benefitted the players instead of the raid characters.
Like I mentioned before, it's possible that the stagger icon simply isn't showing up, because the sabers should be applying stagger. And that would explain the TMR you're seeing. So, it's likely a visual bug, and not a bug in the actual mechanics.
Personally, I think it's a cheese mechanic implemented by the devs.... just as cheesy as the STHan mechanics that were immediately nerfed because it benefitted the players instead of the raid characters.
If the Lightsabre inflicts Stagger & then the next one removes TM and re-inflicts Stagger, then that is why I said it was the beginning of an infinite TM loop that only ends in death, the opposite of the STH one.
Bit like the Expose train.
It's only when the Lightsabre has Advantage or no buff that it has a chance to apply Stagger.
If it has Retribution then it is supposed to apply Daze.
If it has Foresight then it is supposed to apply Ability Block.
But it does also seem to undermine the ability to develop any tactics, if there is no way to prevent this other than Tenacity Up.
That's a pretty limited start point for tactical development.
@AnnerDoon I already recognised and responded to that, when you mentioned it before. I got what you were saying but wanted to understand more.
I presumed that when you took the damage & lost your TM, that it would remove the Stagger debuff.
Also, only the Lightsabre with either Advantage, or no buff has a chance to apply Stagger.
As I said before, if Lightsabre A inflicts Stagger & then Lightsabre B hits, removes TM and re-applies Stagger, then you are potentially facing an infinite TM loop, the opposite method (TM removal, rather than gain) but the same end result as the reason for the STH nerf.
I didn't propose that there was a bug in the mechanics, I just asked if it was WAI as I did not know if it was.
That aside, I'm pretty sure we're in agreement here?
As another thought on this, the infinite TM loop for the Lightsabres completely undoes the purpose of the Stand Alone Raid buff.
I'm sure, in that Q & A, that I saw CG saying that using the Raid buffs had shown in their testing (I know, I know) to significantly increase their scores & longevity.
I've had the infinite TM loop kill 2 of my characters in Stand Alone & the potential for the effect is clearly identifiable.
It really does, once again, bring the standard & quality of their testing into question.
Or, if it's that way by intent, then it only serves to support the speculation of them releasing a specific character with the necessary skill-set to do well.
I'm sure Meetra Surik has to show up for this Raid. They brought in Visas without Faction, so surely Meetra will follow suit.
At the moment I only use stand alone right before toppling, just to reset the debuffs. It's an interesting mechanic, but it just doesn't work properly.
The potential infinite TM loop does also seem to undermine the ability to develop any tactics, if there is no way to prevent this other than Tenacity Up.
That's a pretty limited start point for tactical development.
At the moment I only use stand alone right before toppling, just to reset the debuffs. It's an interesting mechanic, but it just doesn't work properly.
You do it before toppling? You do know that the BoW that it resets doesn't act or increase while she's toppled?
Seems a bit of a waste to use it then? I've been trying to aim for using it at the end of the topple, so that when she gets back up and lays into me it's only one toon, who has the benefit of the other team member's stats & she's not got a load of BoW stacks for when the rest of the team come back into it, her infinite TM loop withstanding.
I seem to be one of the few who doesn't hate the raid, however I have a rather large problem with the fact that Nihilus gains protection from a toon's basic attack once defense down is applied. That is complete horsecrap. It basically eliminates any toon that counters or attacks more than once (ie. Raid Han, Leia, Dooku.) You basically have to run a team with multiple cleansers and always have tenacity up applied just to do any damage. Combine that with the other 50 ways he can gain protection and you have a recipe for madness. My guild is running 73 mil GP and we can't even get past phase 1 on a tier 5 simply due to Nihilus. We can beat a tier 4 but it takes us the same amount of time to get past phase 1 as it does to complete the entire rest of the raid. If the devs are gonna nerf expose and STHan then Nihilus needs to also be taken down a notch.
I disagree with this. Getting a debuff and punishnent for using basics does require good tactics. Most regular comps that counter and assist and multi shot will be useless, but tjats the whole point, theres a challenge and you need to figure it out. I was running toons with lots of special attack spamming options, like kylo ren or boba, but you also came up with 2 very viable tactics, to throw in heavy cleansers or group tenacity uppers. Thats exciting, instead of using the same lame groups that work with the other raids, on auto.
Yes there are obviously tactics that work but the amount of damage that can be done overall is extremely low and we're only talking about a tier 4. I don't even want to think about tier 6 or 7. There are only so many toons who can cleanse and fewer who can grant tenacity up. I've ran squads with a single cleanser or single tenacity toon and it simply doesn't work, you need multiple to keep the debuff away (which also doesn't work half the time because Nihilus removes buffs with every basic attack.) This then means if you expend multiple of them in the first two attempts, you then are back at square one for the remaining three.
Again, overall I like the raid and the challenges it presents but this one section needs to be corrected. A character who basically cannot be debuffed, cannot have TM removed, gains protection with every basic attack, has an instant kill and removes/steals your buffs is a bit much.
Our first attempt at the raid had full participation. The numbers have dwindled down so bad it's taking way longer to finish. I asked the members why so few are hitting it and most said the gear rewards with a couple feeling overwhelmed by the daily needs.
Not expecting to get the elusive stun guns at tier 4 but the challenge gear in a new raid is a kick in the teeth. I think the more exposure of the gear issue the more likely it'll change. Right now, it's damaging guild morale on more than one level.
Fingers crossed at least the challenge gear is removed.
This!
Our guild is 95M gp and I'd say about 15-20 members just don't care. The whole thing is a grinding chore even at T5.
The problem with this raid as opposed to the other two is it requires specific toons & teams to beat each phase, and also this raid is a group effort as opposed to the other two which were solo every man for themselves.
This creates problems for guilds & guild officers trying to coordinate 50 people into doing something all at once at the same time; it just doesn't work unless you have 50 people who are completely devoted to the game at all times.
Our first attempt at the raid had full participation. The numbers have dwindled down so bad it's taking way longer to finish. I asked the members why so few are hitting it and most said the gear rewards with a couple feeling overwhelmed by the daily needs.
Not expecting to get the elusive stun guns at tier 4 but the challenge gear in a new raid is a kick in the teeth. I think the more exposure of the gear issue the more likely it'll change. Right now, it's damaging guild morale on more than one level.
Fingers crossed at least the challenge gear is removed.
Our guild is having the same problem. We're only at 60% participation on the Sith raid right now and some of that is only token attacks to get a reward, not real contributions. Obviously it's something we have to address as a guild but the underlying factor is simply that the rewards are nowhere near worth the effort and time required to finish.
Since this raid has started I have noticed in my guild the time of completing it is taking longer and longer. We are a medium GP guild around 98 Million. We are doing the Tier 5 raid. It seems members are loosing interest in the raid completely. When Pit or Tank come around everyone is scoring. The first Phase is definitely the problem. Loose the protection on DN and it will be a much better experience for everyone. Still it will be challenging but I think a lot more participation will happen with the change.
Replies
Trust me, they've seen them, a couple CG_(whoever's) have commented on the others, I for one definitely want the challenge gear removed, and it's rough on my guild, when we take a few days to be tier 4 of the raid, to essentially just get some guild currency..
Not expecting to get the elusive stun guns at tier 4 but the challenge gear in a new raid is a kick in the teeth. I think the more exposure of the gear issue the more likely it'll change. Right now, it's damaging guild morale on more than one level.
Fingers crossed at least the challenge gear is removed.
I think the Rancor Raid needs to increase more pieces
Tenacity & HP-Pool is WAI
What does that mean?
Some new characters will arrive that either ignore tenacity or maybe have built-in abilities regarding high HP-pools, maybe even both...
Cannot think of anything else, as they‘ve stated that level cap and mod tier increase is not coming anytime „soon“ (we all know „soon“)
IMO a sneaky way around after expose nerf, but the only one I can currently imagine
I just faced Traya & activated Stand Alone on OB.
Every time he gained any TM either one of the Lightsabers removed it all, or Traya did. Repeatedly.
I did not get a single attack from Stand Alone and OB died when it finished.
None of Traya's abilities listed in the Raid Description state that they remove TM.
None of the Lightsaber abilities state that they remove TM.
Yet I was stuck in the reverse situation of the STH loop & lost both Stand Alone & my character.
Is this WAI?
Sabers without either foresight or retribution will stagger their target, which will have their TM removed the next time they are hit. It's possible that the stagger icon isn't appearing, but this is likely what's happening.
I definitely did not have the little man Stagger icon, the Lightsabers inflicted Daze on me & I was also Isolated (that's the locked icon, right?) by Traya.
I had roughly 60% TM and they hit again.
The first one removed all TM, the second one removed the small amount gained, the 3rd did not.
Then Traya hit me and removed the 40% that had built up.
Is that what Stagger does? Makes it so that next time you're hit you lose all TM?
http://gaming-fans.com/2017/11/swgoh-zeta-review-sabine-wren/
in the first image on that page
the 2nd icon GK has is stagger , it removes all TM on damage and then goes away
The 3 Lightsabers all attacked, as did Traya. At the end of their attacks I had the locked Isolated icon & the spiral Daze icon only, then they attacked again.
The first Lightsaber removed all TM.
The same debuffs remained active and the 2nd Lightsaber then removed all TM again. Twice in a row.
The 3rd did not remove any and I went to around 40% then Tray hit me with lightning and I lost all TM again.
Now I may have missed the Stagger icon once, don't think that I did, but is a possibility.
However, if the debuff is removed when I lose my TM, then I don't understand how it can happen from 2 Lightsaber attacks in a row?
Do you think that maybe the first one removed the debuff & my TM, then gave me back the debuff again?
That would seem to be the beginning of an infinite TM loop, until Stand Alone ends.
Still puzzled how it happened twice in a row, though.
Personally, I think it's a cheese mechanic implemented by the devs.... just as cheesy as the STHan mechanics that were immediately nerfed because it benefitted the players instead of the raid characters.
Bit like the Expose train.
It's only when the Lightsabre has Advantage or no buff that it has a chance to apply Stagger.
If it has Retribution then it is supposed to apply Daze.
If it has Foresight then it is supposed to apply Ability Block.
But it does also seem to undermine the ability to develop any tactics, if there is no way to prevent this other than Tenacity Up.
That's a pretty limited start point for tactical development.
I presumed that when you took the damage & lost your TM, that it would remove the Stagger debuff.
Also, only the Lightsabre with either Advantage, or no buff has a chance to apply Stagger.
As I said before, if Lightsabre A inflicts Stagger & then Lightsabre B hits, removes TM and re-applies Stagger, then you are potentially facing an infinite TM loop, the opposite method (TM removal, rather than gain) but the same end result as the reason for the STH nerf.
I didn't propose that there was a bug in the mechanics, I just asked if it was WAI as I did not know if it was.
That aside, I'm pretty sure we're in agreement here?
I'm sure, in that Q & A, that I saw CG saying that using the Raid buffs had shown in their testing (I know, I know) to significantly increase their scores & longevity.
I've had the infinite TM loop kill 2 of my characters in Stand Alone & the potential for the effect is clearly identifiable.
It really does, once again, bring the standard & quality of their testing into question.
Or, if it's that way by intent, then it only serves to support the speculation of them releasing a specific character with the necessary skill-set to do well.
I'm sure Meetra Surik has to show up for this Raid. They brought in Visas without Faction, so surely Meetra will follow suit.
That's a pretty limited start point for tactical development.
You do it before toppling? You do know that the BoW that it resets doesn't act or increase while she's toppled?
Seems a bit of a waste to use it then? I've been trying to aim for using it at the end of the topple, so that when she gets back up and lays into me it's only one toon, who has the benefit of the other team member's stats & she's not got a load of BoW stacks for when the rest of the team come back into it, her infinite TM loop withstanding.
Yes there are obviously tactics that work but the amount of damage that can be done overall is extremely low and we're only talking about a tier 4. I don't even want to think about tier 6 or 7. There are only so many toons who can cleanse and fewer who can grant tenacity up. I've ran squads with a single cleanser or single tenacity toon and it simply doesn't work, you need multiple to keep the debuff away (which also doesn't work half the time because Nihilus removes buffs with every basic attack.) This then means if you expend multiple of them in the first two attempts, you then are back at square one for the remaining three.
Again, overall I like the raid and the challenges it presents but this one section needs to be corrected. A character who basically cannot be debuffed, cannot have TM removed, gains protection with every basic attack, has an instant kill and removes/steals your buffs is a bit much.
This!
Our guild is 95M gp and I'd say about 15-20 members just don't care. The whole thing is a grinding chore even at T5.
The problem with this raid as opposed to the other two is it requires specific toons & teams to beat each phase, and also this raid is a group effort as opposed to the other two which were solo every man for themselves.
This creates problems for guilds & guild officers trying to coordinate 50 people into doing something all at once at the same time; it just doesn't work unless you have 50 people who are completely devoted to the game at all times.
Our guild is having the same problem. We're only at 60% participation on the Sith raid right now and some of that is only token attacks to get a reward, not real contributions. Obviously it's something we have to address as a guild but the underlying factor is simply that the rewards are nowhere near worth the effort and time required to finish.