Sith Triumvirate Raid Changes [MEGA]

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    I’ll also add this. I have no problem with a raid with a long lifespan that is maybe impossible to beat right now. There’s nothing wrong with even making the top tier being unattainable. But I think if that is the approach then you need to A) tell us that to start and B) Add Traya shards as rewards in lower tiers. Those are the rewards we want. If we earned them at lower tiers (obviously at a slower pace) then we wouldn’t be so frustrated that we can’t do heroic.
  • GRTL
    48 posts Member
    edited March 2018
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    CG_RyDiggs wrote: »
    CG_RyDiggs wrote: »
    jjkriv wrote: »
    DarthResin wrote: »
    Good thing I spent all that money and resources on RJT to have her Nerfed. Feels good man.

    http://imgur.com/zxOVoxI

    Im with this guy,Shes a legendary toon,whats the problem here?Commander Luke can stomp a mudhole in the rancor by himself and not a peep about nerfing him.If our guild cant complete the heroic haat after this foolishness,say goodbye to a bunch of quality peeps.Are you guys seriously trying to destroy this game?

    The problem is the Expose mechanic which will have current and long term effects. We needed to make the change for current raid along with all future Raid Bosses, and we decided to make the change along with fixing the ST Han loop.

    It was always going to happen, and we chose this update. HOWEVER, we're hoping the fact we gave you all a week's notice to provide feedback and for us to provide what ever clarity we can helps.

    It is not a popular change, but we want to make sure you all understand we're working for meeting the design goals of current and future Raid Bosses.

    We're never happy to miss player expectations, and will continue efforts to avoid that at all costs.

    Thank you for your support!

    RT

    It sounds like your design goals do not take into account what the customerbase wants.

    Heya Sirlagzalott,

    Sometimes game design goals and player expectations line up perfectly. Very often they DO!

    You want Sith Raid, WE want Sith Raid, we are aligned!

    When normal AAT released, after a few months, we deemed the difficulty was too high, and reduced the health of all the bosses. Players agreed and we were aligned.

    Sometimes the needs of the game are not what the players want. It is unfortunate, but it happens and we hate it, but we are working to design the game with many different design targets.

    We are working to change these divergences by talking to our beloved community BEFORE they happen, provide as much information as we can. Let you players voice your opinions and feedback and know we are listening.

    It's never ideal, but we want to make it the very best we possibly can when missing your expectations.

    Thanks for the question and supporting the game!

    RT

    @CG_RyDiggs I enjoy having to figure out a new puzzle and understand that the right teams had to be found for each phase. Now, my guild is nowhere near completing the raid on heroic, we actually backed out of tier 5 because of the amount of time it was going to take. I remember the original AAT before the nerf and my guild spent weeks on it, only to restart at the beginning of P3 after the health had been reduced.

    I appreciate that you have to make sure you balance the raids against what you believe should be needed to combat it, and fix things that are not working as intended (STH loop). I also appreciate that it is challenging to find every possible issue that may be found in the wild while doing internal testing, and that some unintended interactions will creep up. If those are game breaking they need to be fixed. In this case though, Expose was a known quantity and had to have been tested. You made a point earlier that JTR teams were stifling team diversity and experimentation.

    The community has tested probably thousands of teams to try and find teams that worked well and the only ones that really can do the 2% needed in a phase is the Jedi Training Rey teams. I could point you to http://petebutler.co.uk/mrpi/#tst where teams that have been found to work are listed. There are some really innovative teams on that list and there are more on some of the discord servers. However, basically none of these teams can get the required 2% to complete the raid other than JTR teams. The same teams are also the only effective teams in phases of the raid, this means that a guild can't send 50 teams in to each phase. This leads to three possible scenarios:
    1. Even after thousands of team compositions have been tried, no one has found the intended teams.
    2. The raid isn't actually intended to be completed yet.
    3. The raid isn't performing as intended.
    Number 1 is possible, but with 10s of thousands of players trying teams, I find that hard to believe.
    I find #2 very hard to believe, but I suppose is possible. That only really leaves number 3, that the raid isn't performing as designed.

    For evidence that the raid is not performing as designed, I refer you to the recommended levels for the raid. Tier 5 recommends Level 80, Gear 10 and Mk 3 mods and abilities omegaed for a guild of 40+. This is the same as the Heroic Tank. Almost everyone in my guild is level 85 and has several teams that are way over this stat (gear 12, multiple zetas), and we spent 2 days on Tier 5 to get through the first two phases before dropping to another tier. This tells me that the balance isn't where you wanted it and the raid needs to be modified to match the intended levels.

    As for the comment that the game designs needs don't always line up with customer expectations, I highly recommend that your product managers take some courses in pragmatic marketing. The customer expectations and needs are what drive your business, what you have done is created an inside-out design. This is one of the largest failings of technology companies.
  • Options
    GRTL wrote: »
    CG_RyDiggs wrote: »
    CG_RyDiggs wrote: »
    jjkriv wrote: »
    DarthResin wrote: »
    Good thing I spent all that money and resources on RJT to have her Nerfed. Feels good man.

    http://imgur.com/zxOVoxI

    Im with this guy,Shes a legendary toon,whats the problem here?Commander Luke can stomp a mudhole in the rancor by himself and not a peep about nerfing him.If our guild cant complete the heroic haat after this foolishness,say goodbye to a bunch of quality peeps.Are you guys seriously trying to destroy this game?

    The problem is the Expose mechanic which will have current and long term effects. We needed to make the change for current raid along with all future Raid Bosses, and we decided to make the change along with fixing the ST Han loop.

    It was always going to happen, and we chose this update. HOWEVER, we're hoping the fact we gave you all a week's notice to provide feedback and for us to provide what ever clarity we can helps.

    It is not a popular change, but we want to make sure you all understand we're working for meeting the design goals of current and future Raid Bosses.

    We're never happy to miss player expectations, and will continue efforts to avoid that at all costs.

    Thank you for your support!

    RT

    It sounds like your design goals do not take into account what the customerbase wants.

    Heya Sirlagzalott,

    Sometimes game design goals and player expectations line up perfectly. Very often they DO!

    You want Sith Raid, WE want Sith Raid, we are aligned!

    When normal AAT released, after a few months, we deemed the difficulty was too high, and reduced the health of all the bosses. Players agreed and we were aligned.

    Sometimes the needs of the game are not what the players want. It is unfortunate, but it happens and we hate it, but we are working to design the game with many different design targets.

    We are working to change these divergences by talking to our beloved community BEFORE they happen, provide as much information as we can. Let you players voice your opinions and feedback and know we are listening.

    It's never ideal, but we want to make it the very best we possibly can when missing your expectations.

    Thanks for the question and supporting the game!

    RT

    This leads to three possible scenarios:
    1. Even after thousands of team compositions have been tried, no one has found the intended teams.
    2. The raid isn't actually intended to be completed yet.
    3. The raid isn't performing as intended.
    Number 1 is possible, but with 10s of thousands of players trying teams, I find that hard to believe.
    I find #2 very hard to believe, but I suppose is possible. That only really leaves number 3, that the raid isn't performing as designed.

    I'm more inclined to think #2. Why would they create the hardest content in the game so far, that doesn't require any additions to the top players rosters?

    If they continue farming Treya shards in heroic, what character is going to be released, and made available in packs that will be necessary to obtain?
  • Options
    CG_RyDiggs wrote: »
    Hello all,

    I'm heading out for the day, I know I haven't answered nearly all the great questions or responded to the passionate feedback here.

    I'll be out of the office tomorrow, BUT will be back Monday Morning. I'm hoping with more information to share, but certainly to reply to more comments.

    Until Monday!

    RT

    Lol try working at Apple around release times. Taking a 3-day weekend when you’re in the middle of a messed up release? That’s ridiculous and there better be another dev helping out. That’s insane, and I realize you’re probably not compensated nearly enough, so can understand not wanting to work for free...but come on, CG. Keep the responses coming! This is a PR disaster and it’s easy to fix, but not when 3-day weekends happen.
  • Platzman
    284 posts Member
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    Any guild with 40 decent JT Rey teams + several STH teams can kill Heroic. I guess developers hoped it would remain challenge for longer time...
    Ofc STH is broken. But since % effects and endless loops are the only (remaining) way to make a notable dent in those hyperdefense teflon siths, it is very frustrating to rip us of them too...

    If they eased some other things - like that stupid tenacity stacking along with tm and tena down immunity - this may be a nice raid. When they only nerf % effects to the ground and remove on damage trigger from Traya, what remains is senseless bashing vanilla style. (or TI style - and not meant as an offense, they say themselves that its their first brute force strategy to use all their maxed toons to make 2+% each sending team after team...)
  • Berator
    28 posts Member
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    A lot to read here.

    I personally like the idea of having a really hard new raid. That hard that Heroic can only be done with a very good coordination. But on the same time this raid should never be that hard that only P2P guilds will be able to make it. But so far I cannot see that.
    I really understand that CG does an 'adjustment' to this raid and STH. The new and difficult raid should not be possible with some kind of easy mode in P3/P4.

    To the devs -> as mentioned earlier the players did not do something wrong. STH was no bug abusing. It is a simple mechanic that was overseen. The expose nerf and making certain teams a lot weaker noone could foresee. Time and game resources of players have been wasted somehow. A compensation in terms of 1 free zeta for your players (customers?) should be something you consider to give out. I would then be quite happy again as I understand why you did the STH nerv.
  • Options
    This is a mess, plain and simple. There is serious incongruity among the difficulty, time investment, and rewards. My 100M GP guild is on day 3 of T5. I just spent half an hour entering and retreating with various g11/12 combinations. Found one that was doing some damage, surviving to enrage. Less than 2%!

    I am not having fun with this raid. It’s a game. If it’s not fun, I don’t want to do it. Now I’m faced with a choice of letting down my guild, or trucking along doing 3-4 mil a day on a T5.

    So, what does this have to do with this thread? Even with the current JTR and sthan mechanics, guilds are struggling. That’s ok, except people lose interest when you don’t see measurable improvement, you’re already attacking with maxed toons, and the rewards are utterly inadequate (completion is not a reward).
  • DaFunk
    72 posts Member
    Options
    Why bother nerfing anything. Just give Traya a tiny splash ability that hits all characters once she hits enrage. Problem solved.

    Also happy for you to change the expose issue if you alter the tenacity issue so that it enables the rest of our roster to play the raid.

    You might think ok you can use the rest of your roster to get the required 2% in each heroic phase. However in reality once you have used one squad, if you try and send in another the TM from the bosses goes crazy and I think I counted that the boss and adds took 20 consecutive turns against my squad. So you have to have at least a squad that does 2% each phase. If you can find one that does that other than JTR, NS and Kru teams then please let us all know.

    TLDR: If you nerf JTR nerf the tenacity.
  • Ghostwolf
    59 posts Member
    edited March 2018
    Options
    Of course STH was broken! Saying otherwise is sillytalk, especialy coming from a ”long time player”..

    The fact that STH is the login character for this month tells us that they had to have 1) tested his influence in the raid thoroughly and were aware of the loop or 2) did NOT test his TM manipulation as they should have on the very character they were pushing to us. Obviously the second option is the correct one and that is quite frankly alarming. But it is the raid that is broken, not STH.
  • Options
    Zader is still useful for other raids, some dude just solo'd Heroic AAT with him as leader.
    https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/158226/full-haat-solo-with-zvader-and-wampa#latest
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    But nothing is being done about the worthless rewards? I am very disappointed in this raid as a whole. Very long battles w little damage output. Feel good about doing 2m damage but realize its lile 1%. I am speaking on behalf of our 90m gp guild that does not like the raid at all
  • Options
    What 'long term player' doesn't have vader lead zeta
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    What 'long term player' doesn't have vader lead zeta

    "Long Term" is perfectly relative. My 15 months might be long term to some, but I'm still a baby compared to launch players. What's long term to you @Th3NameLess? Probably not 15 months, since I don't have a zeta on my Vader's lead. If you wanted to be rational about your comment and say "It would be surprising that anyone that has been around since the introduction of zetas doesn't have a Zader lead", that would make more sense.
  • Reptile
    114 posts Member
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    Why is Sion on this list. New character, released with raid, by himself doesn't break anything. Besides, can barely land pain as it is in any phase and that is his main ability.
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
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    Its already such a slow grind to get any zetas, and now that I have apparently wasted 20, I'm set back about 2 months.

    whut?
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • Atrreyu
    130 posts Member
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    I just lol at people using the term whale here. This is not the casino, you aren't getting anything of real value back.
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    The developers and game designers need to read up on the tragic fall of Star Wars Galaxies. Those developers and designers also started making very unpopular decisions that they felt was best for the game. The players were very vocal about not wanting the changes but they decided to go through with them anyways. This game is heading in the same direction.
  • kalidor
    2124 posts Member
    Options
    Independent of this, they still need to rework the rewards. Not just an increase of the quantities that are currently there, but also moving some of the G12 and raid rewards down a tier. G12 gear should be in T5, and tank gear should also be in T4. Greatly increasing the coin rewards would help a lot as well.
    If they're going to force guilds to drop a tier just to complete the raid in a timely manner with these changes, then they need to rework the rewards, or there is just no point to even launching it.
    xSWCr - Nov '15 shard - swgoh.gg kalidor-m
  • TVF
    36767 posts Member
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    Atrreyu wrote: »
    I just lol at people using the term whale here. This is not the casino, you aren't getting anything of real value back.

    So just like a casino then.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
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    On se fou de nous
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    @CG_RyDiggs my problem isn't with STH being fixed it needed to be done that was obvious. I realize that you guys only have so many people and every aspect of the game can't possibly be tested. I know this from working for sofware companies my self and doing in house beta testing and such. It is impossible to find every possible issue or bug that may arise with any new software or update. You do your best and that's all you can do then you deal with the problems that you didn't find when they arise. I don't fault you guys for any of that. I also know that making something challenging is a balancing act. Can't make it so challenging that it turns people off and can't make it so easy that it has the same effect. I don't expect to be able to down a heroic raid a couple of days after it is released but, I am telling you from a player perspective what I am seeing is T4 and T5 lvls of the raid. According to your own info posted for the raid is for lvl 70 star 4 characters. I don't see how that would even be possible for a guild with only that lvl of characters in inventory when a guild with lvl 85 and G11 and g12 star 7 characters is struggling to down a T4 in a reasonable amount of time. The difficulty doesn't seem to be scaling right. But over all as a player this raid has quickly killed all of the fun in this game for me. I am really at a point that I don't care about this raid at all and really could careless about figuring anything out with it. running in with a team and fighting till they die to get less than 2% just isn't fun for me. I will continue to play this game but the sith raid is dead to me. Its not fun I will maybe put a few teams in here and there on full auto just to score and contribute something but I would rather focus on TB or TW or even the other raids and arena at this point and just forget the sith raid even exists. This to me is sad though because I know it just came out and was supposed to be something new and exciting but to me it has just fallen flat on its face unfortunately. All this talk of fixing STH and other mechanics on the player side of things which I agree need to be fixed without also addressing the issues on the raid side of the mechanics that need to be fixed doesn't make me want this raid anymore. Decreasing the health pool of the bosses slightly doesn't do nearly enough to address the issue with the raid side of the mechanics imo. Also sick and tired of seeing the its all about JTR show that this raid has become and that hasn't happened because of issue with JTR that need to be nerfed. That has been created by issues with the raid mechanics that need to be fixed. It was said by the devs somewhere that they wanted this raid to showcase some under used factions but so far I don't see anything in this raid that has given any other faction advantages.
  • TVF
    36767 posts Member
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    Woof. Try using a few paragraph breaks if you want people to read your posts.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Djarlaks
    9 posts Member
    edited March 2018
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    Dear CG, Devs, people around,

    I’d like to tell you something...And I know that it is not only my opinion. When you’ve played swgoh for 2+ years and then such a hard raid appears, there are no challenging emotions at all! Many of you are talking about good guild cooperation, BUT in reality only 50-60% of all members makes valuable efforts during the raid. Huge amount of players are not gonna spend 2+ hours every day only for this new raid. It means that only top guilds with diligent members will be successful. For the rest of the community this raid will be a fancy kitten. Even t5 takes a lot of time for guilds under 100kk and they will not beat heroic till next year.
    And one more thing. Mobile gaming is growing and there are a lot of great upcoming titles this year which means that swgoh has to be much more friendly and thoughtful, otherwise...the end.
    Post edited by Kyno on
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    aloomis16 wrote: »
    Can I offer some perspective? I am in a very competitive guild and through our first two heroics I have spend hours grinding runs to help get our guild through the raid. Then I go to sleep and someone comes in when it goes into p3 and hits auto and can literally walk away from their phone while I've had to micromanage my runs and then end up on top of me in the raid leaderboard. If you just so happen to be around when p3 opens great, otherwise no matter how much effort you put into other phases you won't get a top spot. Those same people will likely contribute very little to other phases in the raid as well. Am I bitter I haven't been able to use this mechanic? absolutely. But realistically, this early after release you should not be able to hit auto and clear a phase. Anyone arguing against this is clearly in a guild that would otherwise not be able to clear heroic. I know I don't have a popular opinion but I want to make clear that there are players who value genuine competition and challenge in this game.

    Sounds like you need to keep grinding in order to have the ability to auto attack. Trust me, when you've been grinding characters for 1.5 years and you've finally reached the point where you can save some time, you take advantage of it. Keep it up and you'll understand why the Auto Attack is totally fair.

    BTW, thanks EA for the QoL update. I'm all about the ability to sim almost everything now. My wife is way happier too. haha
  • Oceley
    10 posts Member
    Options
    Changing the raid to reduce the sthan mechanic, fine, making it global to all on hit abilities, fine... but can we address the crazy tenacity of raid bosses in this raid?

    I was so excited for zeta Sion (and his potential uses in the new raid) but with the incredible tenacity, as well as no more on hit mechanic, applying his unique debuff to bosses is nearly impossible. By way of anecdote, I managed 1 pain in a t6 p3 run all the way to enrage, really hurts Sion's usefulness.
  • Options
    Nothing was broken though, STH was finally a useful character again, along with him being this months character... To make matters worse in the letter talking about the nerfs they said that they wanted people to use characters outside of the meta, but so far JTR is the only team that can do any damage, and she certainly is meta. So all the evidence pointed to this being a legit strategy, but hey that's just me.

    It was broken... Clearly...

    Great insight
  • Temujin2009
    33 posts Member
    edited March 2018
    Options
    CG_RyDiggs wrote: »
    jjkriv wrote: »
    DarthResin wrote: »
    Good thing I spent all that money and resources on RJT to have her Nerfed. Feels good man.

    http://imgur.com/zxOVoxI

    Im with this guy,Shes a legendary toon,whats the problem here?Commander Luke can stomp a mudhole in the rancor by himself and not a peep about nerfing him.If our guild cant complete the heroic haat after this foolishness,say goodbye to a bunch of quality peeps.Are you guys seriously trying to destroy this game?

    The problem is the Expose mechanic which will have current and long term effects. We needed to make the change for current raid along with all future Raid Bosses, and we decided to make the change along with fixing the ST Han loop.

    It was always going to happen, and we chose this update. HOWEVER, we're hoping the fact we gave you all a week's notice to provide feedback and for us to provide what ever clarity we can helps.

    It is not a popular change, but we want to make sure you all understand we're working for meeting the design goals of current and future Raid Bosses.

    We're never happy to miss player expectations, and will continue efforts to avoid that at all costs.

    Thank you for your support!

    RT

    Excuse me, what week notice are you referring to? I literally burned my first zeta on Finn 3 days ago. If anyone had told us that Finn was going to be nerfed it would have been appreciated, I personally would have chosen differently.

    HAAT is a huge hurdle for us mid guilds. I think you guys don't get it, we are all building FO/bb/vets to get to the meta and you guys just trashed months of effort for a Sith raid that few of us like or care about.
    Post edited by Temujin2009 on
  • Options
    Orcsbane13 wrote: »
    The developers and game designers need to read up on the tragic fall of Star Wars Galaxies. Those developers and designers also started making very unpopular decisions that they felt was best for the game. The players were very vocal about not wanting the changes but they decided to go through with them anyways. This game is heading in the same direction.

    That is my saddest gaming experience. So sad. Loved that game.
  • Options

    The main problem here is that the stacking tenacity is very strangely designed. It shouldn't be a trigger on taking damage, it should be a trigger on suffering a debuff. And it shouldn't reset on making an attack. While this does open up for some timing strategies, TM gains makes it very random, and it's really annoying when I am forced to hit with a non-debuffer that will increase tenacity so my debuffer going next can't hit any more.

    How about implementing this mechanic instead:

    "Each time the boss suffers a debuff, increase tenacity by 1% until the end of the encounter".

    Obviously, the 1% could be adjusted properly. This might actually work fine in arena and other encounters as well. Having a mechanic that behaves different in different encounters is a bad mechanic.

    While you're at it, why not simply change expose to "20% damage, capped at 25,000" or so, whatever the numbers are for HAAT, and you won't affect the older raids, and you don't have to readjust it when you release the next raid with more hitpoints, or when lvl increase makes the percentage attacks way too efficient in the arena as well next year. Do the same thing for Deathmark and Thermals and other percentage skills while you're at it.

    Another very important general bad design that becomes obvious with the high tenacity is the irresistable effects. I really think you need to revisit potency vs tenacity so irresistable isn't required to do things. It's not the expose itself that makes Rey teams so overpowered, it's the fact that they can apply it at all, which other exposers can't with the current tenacity solution. I would assume the irresistable mechanic is to counter tenacity up in arena, but again, fix the root problem instead of adding another bad design to counter it.

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