[Dev Post] Matchmaking clarification post: 3/15

Replies

  • CG_RyDiggs wrote: »
    Hello Territory Warriors,

    But it's still broken!

    We understand recent Territory Wars had guilds matched up at a wider ranges than design intended. As an appreciation and recognition for all the great player feedback and patience as we continue to improve the game:

    We will be distributing 500 Crystals to all players on 3/16 in their inbox
    Details to be posted in the Game Update section of the forums.

    DETAILS

    We have made some improvements to the matchmaking system in this week’s server update. Starting with this weekend’s Territory War, you should be seeing results closer to the original design intent.

    In order to help you understand that intent, here are some additional details about the system.

    Matchmaking seeks to create the most fair matchups, with two primary goals in mind:
    • The squad power of participating individuals in each guild should be near the same average power.
    • The strongest possible squads of both participating guilds should be near the same average power.

    To achieve this, matchmaking uses multiple parameters.

    As a primary consideration, matchmaking identifies the strongest characters/ships expected to be used by each participant in the Territory War and assigns a value to each roster. Then it looks for the single strongest squads and compares them to each other. Matchmaking then aggregates these criteria for the guild and finds the opponent that is most similar.

    Comparing Guild Galactic Power (GP), Active GP, or # of participants can be misleading.

    Rewards are determined solely by Active GP of the participants. Active GP refers to the total Guild Galactic Power of the guild at the time that each person has joined the Territory War. Galactic Power is locked at that point to ensure that matchmaking is calculated off a fixed number and can’t be drastically changed over the course of the Territory War.

    Finally, to promote a variety of opponents, we seek to avoid matching with recently fought opponents, however this can still happen if opponents meeting the above criteria are sparse.

    Thank you all for your great feedback as we continue to improve the Territory Wars feature. As with all areas of the game, we will continue to monitor the feature to ensure it is meeting target design goals.


    CG_RyDiggs

  • But it's still broken...
  • catharsis478
    676 posts Member
    edited April 2018
    Y'all really need to take into account number of participants.

    This time we were 41 (us) vs 26 (them)--in the 30 mil GP Range--and they cleared out our entire side of the battlefield, which we half-expected after they had one dude--one!--solo our entire first territory (and we front-load our defense, so all our strongest defense teams were up front). Yeesh, that wasn't fun.
  • Plain and simple the system is being exploited. It doesnt take a degree in astrophysics to figure out that when you face a guild with double,triple, or higher G11/G12 teams than your guild, that something is obviously wrong. The best analogy I can come up with is matching a local high school basketball team against an NBA all-star team and thinking that there is any chance that the high school players stand a chance at winning.

    TW used to be my favorite mode. I have literally had a match that came down to the last 60 seconds and we lost by 10 points. Moments like that are what makes the mode great. But that only works when you are matched appropriately. The higher our guild GP goes, the less it seems that the fair matches come our way. The bigger guilds are cutting their rosters in half to go down 2 or 3 brackets to match against 50. Why are they doing this? Because they cant win against a guild comparable to their participants. So they have 25 sign up and their win at 2 levels lower is better than a loss they would take at where they should be. If the Devs dont think this isnt happening then I challenge them to review some of these mismatched reports. The data speaks for itself. If you can convince me that facing a guild with a 25M GP advantage, an average per player advantage of over 1M, and rosters of their Top 10 are over the highest GP member I have, then I am all ears. A challenge is great. An impossible task sucks.
    SWGOH Guild: Peace Is A Lie SWGOH Profile: Boofpoof Discord: Buffpuff#3065
  • Again .. our TW : Us 37mil GP total against guild 57mil GP ... pathetic
  • mali3538
    104 posts Member
    In opponent guild one player have more g12 toons than my entire guild... We are not competitive... They ar going to clear us.
    They have players over 2m gp, i have most in my guild 1.7gp...and i have just 6 g12 toons

    I do not know what is used to matchmake, i assume it does not work as it intended.
  • Dobi_Wan_Kenobi
    28 posts Member
    edited May 2018
    As mentioned in my post (https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/168116/balancing-in-tw#latest)
    we are used that our opponents are usually more then 10M stronger then we are but this time in the first TW our Opponent was 103M and at the one currently running they are 91M ... we are playing in the 60-69M section. So whatever you changed... it didn't help and made it even worse.

    Even if it fits from a GM Point of view because they have less persons or they are removing mods to start in lower classes - they have Teams that our guild cant beat no way. They just Need 2 of those Teams in the first fields and the war is over for us.
    I dont mind loosing if we are having a good war and they beat us Close but if they just rush to our strongest Teams like a hot knife through warm butter, there is something wrong with the balancing...

    We were faceing too strong opponents since we reached the 60M section and nobody is in the mood to Play the war since then. Not a good gaming experiance.
  • The matchmaking is way off. We are a 68K Guild and facing a 110K Guild in the current battle. They have 4 or 5 100K squads for every 1 of ours. There needs to be a better algorithm.
  • abc127
    19 posts Member
    You should also look at number of eligible squads per active player. This would prevent higher gp guilds from sending a minimum number of players, who have a high squad ratio, against guilds who have high participation but much lower quality squads.
  • sipi22
    20 posts Member
    mali3538 wrote: »
    In opponent guild one player have more g12 toons than my entire guild... We are not competitive... They ar going to clear us.
    They have players over 2m gp, i have most in my guild 1.7gp...and i have just 6 g12 toons

    I do not know what is used to matchmake, i assume it does not work as it intended.

    Just like this in our last TW. Our entire guild has 150 G12 toons, one player on their side had 94 (that we counted), plus large numbers from other players. Understandably, we got smashed.
    They only had 40/50 participants from their 105M GP guild, so their active GP might have been more like 85M (vs. our 65M).
  • UTmfUT
    47 posts Member
    Been awhile since I've posted and figured an update was due. In the last 2 months my guild has still never been lower in gp (only 1 time have we ever been higher and that was back in January). Must guilds we've played since entering the 100m bracket have been 6 to 10m active gp higher. We know because we won every one and track active gp defeated.

    This tw, we got matched wth a 126m gp guild vs our 105m. This guild was completing a merger for hsith raid. We are farming t5. They have 10 players over 3 mil total gp, we have 1. If your algorithms take into account full rosters they are woefully broken.

    The most disappointing part of all of this is the lack of communication from EA CG on what you are doing to address this.

    It seems most guilds are looking to one of two things:

    1 - lock matches to the same rewards brackets, or
    2 - give the lower gp guild eligible for the same rewards as the higher gp.

    These are not unreasonable for the amount of effort guilds put into TW.
  • UTmfUT
    47 posts Member
    As the edit functions on this board often don't work as intended:

    In the last 2 months my guild has always been lower in gp (only 1 time have we ever been higher and that was back in January).
  • Immorta1lynx
    192 posts Member
    edited May 2018
    Okay, so I need some help here. I run tw for my guild and I can usually see how we match up with our opponents. but every three or four tw we face a miss-match so great, I just can't see how this was logical. 123m guild. 590 total Zeta abilities in the guild. 394 g12 and even more g11. This is an impossible matchup. Not just hard, impossible. our guild is 90m with maybe 1/4th the zeta abilities and g12/11 characters. So help me out here @CG_Carrie
  • yancowsky
    1 posts Member
    edited May 2018
    Against our guild (called Tal Shiar https://swgoh.gg/g/10779/tal-shiar/), has been guild with GP > 100 (48 players). Our guild have only 80 (38 players). What’s happened ? It’s very unequal the battle and balance. It is not fair. What will do you do with it?

    May revoke the TW, and give away equilent prizes to both guilds?

    My Ally Code - 294-899-665

    Thanks
    Post edited by yancowsky on
  • OlafMontz
    4 posts Member
    edited May 2018
    Hello, here with the same problem, we have a 90-99M tier price and we fight a guild that are at 110-119M tier price, so this is insane, 2 tiers more heavy than us, we are at 21 Wins and always fight against more powerfull guilds but this time is enough, if EA dont make a change on this we are going to leave the game and thats going to be to bad for EA and us because we love this game so much but is not fair to have to wait who knows how much time to get this thing working properly.

    I have all the printscreens if you wanted to see the problem, have talk to the leader of the other guild and see that they have a lot of more GP than us.
  • XKurareX
    334 posts Member
    Your explained matchmaking doesnt work at all.

    Guild GM opponent +20%
    Average player GM opponent +20%
    Arena rating opponent average -20%

    I am not sure how far away your written explanation and your mathematics are. Test your stuff - it doesnt work.
  • Ronius
    4 posts Member
    Hello,

    Since the beginning of TW we’ve only drawn opponents that are stronger than our guild. And nog a bit stronger. Usually 10-30 mil gp stronger. We’re facing walls of special chars (general kenobi, Rey Jedi training) that are rare in our guild. The change of last March didn’t change that.
    Sometimes we think in some guilds only 75% of the players lock so they can fight weaker guilds. Better win 3 wars in 2 weeks(6 zeta’s) than lose 4 (4 zeta’s). Have you considered this in the matchmaking?
    Gr.
    Ronius
  • MisterXanderFr
    33 posts Member
    edited May 2018
    Once again, we fight higher guild in TW. it's always the case and i suppose it's mainly because quite all of us register to the TW.

    but our mean GP is 700k per guy. And when you fight guilds with players at 2.5MGP it's really unfair. A guy with 2.5MGP is much stronger than 3 or 4 guys with 700k !

    As an exemple, see current TW :
    we are : https://swgoh.gg/g/34604/the-force-within-your-wallet/
    our ennemy is : https://swgoh.gg/g/21697/scruffy-nerbherders/

    we register 41 players for 26MGP. so less than 600k mean per player.
    They register 29 players but are in the 30-39MGP reward range (i had a chat with one of them). so more than 1MGP per player...

    this is a HUGE difference.

    lot of G12 toons for them, quite none for us.
    Many many many more squads for them.

    They filled ALL available slots in defense phase. this is huge ! And they are able to quite clear all of our map...

    So, i really think that the matchmaking is not as described. it's not possible.

    thanks in advance for any feedback from CG about this

  • XKurareX
    334 posts Member
    edited May 2018
    Issue is that GP and real fighting power are not a linear system. It is more like a quadratic function.

    Firstly all units below 6000 power cant even be used - especially for the lower tier this means a lot units are completely out of the fight.

    Secondly the fighting power between a good g12 squad and a good g10 squad is a huge difference especially on defence.

    Thirdly the accumulating of TM on certain squads can completely jinx smaller guilds as everyone who will go in afterwards will just die (as most dont even know about how to reset certain squads if your team got toasted and you didnt killed anything).

    And last a higher guild may have at all access to certain rare and powerful characters - be it wampa, traya, hyoda, jtr, kenobi or even just han solo...it all matters

    So 20% higher GP means in reality the double of fighting power. It means the tactics most likely of your own team doesnt matter at all. The SWGOH system tells "sorry this time you get second place" by rng...thanks a lot for this insult of a matchmaking system.

    Sure you can win it anyways sometimes. But than it only means you have been way better in tactics, in battles and in communication. So thumbs up for everyone who did it - and thumbs down for this matchmaking system.

    EDIT:
    7 Star character lvl1 g1 unskilled - about 4700 power
    7 star character lvl85 g1 unskilled - about 6700 power
    7 star character lvl85 g10 skilled - about 14000 power
    7 star character lvl85 g11 skilled - about 17000 power
    7 star character lvl85 g12 skilled - about 20000 power

    Powergap between g11 and g12 is just about 7% gp change - this shows how much impact a 20% increase in GM has
  • I'm suspecting there's a glitch to match making, my 130 m gp guild was matched with a 170million guild. I am assuming that some kind of problem must have occurred with matchmaking because if not then that would mean one thing; it would mean the system was to force your win rate down to a near 50% if it detects that your guild is doing very well and gaining too many zetas.
  • UTmfUT
    47 posts Member
    edited May 2018
    Once again we were matched up in a tw where we found ourselves at a significant disadvantage.

    Overall they were plus 9 mil active gp as they had full participation 110m gp for us 119 for them.

    Roster comparison:
    - 5/50 3M+ GP vs. our 1/50, 34 have 2M+ GP vs. our 32
    - Their avg GP is 2.4M vs. our 2.2M
    - Avg arena is 90 vs. our 135
    - 13 in top 20 arena vs. our 8

    Characters:
    - 720 G12 vs. our 515,
    - 867 G11 vs our 703
    - 30 RJT vs. our 18
    - 43 G11+ GK vs. our 28
    - 21 G11+ Sion (we have 9)

    Zetas:
    - 797 zetas vs our 605

    Being matched up continually in TW after TW is dampening my enthusiasm for this game. This is compounded by the lack of clarification from the devs or anyone at EA/CG especially in light of recent promises for increased communication.


  • UTmfUT
    47 posts Member
    edited May 2018
    To go further, if EA/CG is exploring reducing the frequency of tw there needs to be a much better match making system. Reduced tw means reduced chances at zetas and guild event currency which exacerbates the current pain points guilds building to heroic Sith raid face. Instead it feels like a "rich get richer" scenario where guilds on the cusp of progressing in game get faced with increasing frustrations and the guilds already at the end game level get increased benefits.
  • If we were only outmatched by 9m we would be ecstatic. The two tw this time around we were 30m under our opponent. Roster depth is one of the biggest factors in tw, along with average gp. If your algorithm doesn't take these into account then we'll never have proper matches.

    If my guilds top average team, regardless of synergy, is 100k, but our next average is 82k, then how can we match against a guild whose top team average is 102k, but next average is 100k? That's the mismatch that we always seem to face.

    You're turning the best and most fun mode in the game into one of the worst.
  • TheAcademy
    51 posts Member
    edited May 2018
    Deleted
  • *** Important *** I have a fix for twars. Aussie and Canadian guilds have been using spies for some time now to read enemy guild comms. Best read was 3hrs pre def stage, and a peek at every member in their guild. If the lowest gp guild in twars gets comms Intel, would level the playing field somewhat, and fewer complaints from guilds that were underdogs.
  • Check a guild called Aussie made. Spy training school for twars.
  • I posted a bug today to see if there would be any reply. I'm not sure if they care about improving the algorithm. I also commented in the bug thread for the issue. You many want to check this out as well.

    https://answers.ea.com/t5/Bug-Reports/Broken-matchmaking-Facing-a-guild-with-60-million-more-gp-in-TW/m-p/6828955#M13319

    I see at least two issues.

    1. Guilds split off players to get lower power match-ups. This is low IMHO but could be addressed by considering the number of players so guilds don't draw opponents with a large player count disparity. IOW, if you have 30 members in TW you get a get matched with as close as possible to a similar number of players.

    2. IMHO it appears algorithm focuses too much on top end rosters of players. I believe what is happening is after a player has a certain number of top end rosters the rest are not counted or greatly reduced in value for matchmaking. Obviously a larger number of team particularly good ones is a big help on offense and defense.

    Since we don't know how the matchmaking works this is obviously conjecture on my part but the one guild in our alliance that is constantly affected has always had smart players with good rosters for their GP at top focused on guild events and legendary stuff. They beat HSR at a low GP because they build good teams for the HSR. After matchmaking changed they started drawing teams with similar top end rosters but also multiple other excellent rosters leading to a huge mismatch in gear levels, zetas and the number of squads. Our top guild has much deeper rosters and has never drawn a mismatch in the 150m+ GP range.

    In terms of motivation for CG EA to fix this versus adding new content I guess it comes down to the profit motive of using development resources on even more new content that generates revenue. Also the guilds splitting off players or with the deep rosters in scenario #2 are more likely to spend money and are likely not the ones complaining about current matchmaking system.

    I'd just appreciate a response saying the system is working as intended in which case I would not put so much time in that guild planning for TW and focus more of our efforts on LS and DS TB now that HSR is farm. We have a very detailed TW defensive and offensive system which lets us do well but in a grossly unfair match-up it is really hard to win with tactics and most guilds in 130m+ range and not terrible at TW.
  • Remember. We can only win 50% of the time if the game dev's get it right. Strategy sways that %.
  • Ronius
    4 posts Member
    Again 25m difference and still no fix or reaction of EA. The best match we had last month was 15m disadvantage. Why place a defense anyway if you don’t stand a chance from the first moment? Better accept the loss and not put any effort in it.
  • UTmfUT wrote: »
    Once again we were matched up in a tw where we found ourselves at a significant disadvantage.

    Overall they were plus 9 mil active gp as they had full participation 110m gp for us 119 for them.

    Roster comparison:
    - 5/50 3M+ GP vs. our 1/50, 34 have 2M+ GP vs. our 32
    - Their avg GP is 2.4M vs. our 2.2M
    - Avg arena is 90 vs. our 135
    - 13 in top 20 arena vs. our 8

    Characters:
    - 720 G12 vs. our 515,
    - 867 G11 vs our 703
    - 30 RJT vs. our 18
    - 43 G11+ GK vs. our 28
    - 21 G11+ Sion (we have 9)

    Zetas:
    - 797 zetas vs our 605

    Being matched up continually in TW after TW is dampening my enthusiasm for this game. This is compounded by the lack of clarification from the devs or anyone at EA/CG especially in light of recent promises for increased communication.


    Send a padawan to guild: ' Aussie made' for spy training for 2 days. Level the playing field in twars. :)
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