Change in Apple App Store policy regarding loot boxes / Inadequate answer in Q&A

SoylentGreen
84 posts Member
edited March 2018
As mentioned by a user in the Q&A session, Apple has put in place new rules regarding loot box mechanics in games, namely that the odds need to be clearly and openly shown prior to purchasing a box:

Quote:
"Apps offering “loot boxes” or other mechanisms that provide randomized virtual items for purchase must disclose the odds of receiving each type of item to customers prior to purchase."
https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/

In a different game (from Disney), the (often laughable) chances of receiving a specific item are clearly shown already.

CG's answer in the Q&A was inadequate to say the least ("discussing with Apple what that means to this game"). It's pretty simple: Show the odds for every item. Period.

Edit:
Everybody knows why CG is reluctant to show the odds.
However, this reluctance is a good sign of bad (predatory?) business practices.

Replies

  • i believe they re looking for ways to loophole the rules. For example, theres a argument that all chronium packs are F2P and as such you dont "purchase" them with real money.
  • SoylentGreen
    84 posts Member
    edited March 2018
    swgohfan29 wrote: »
    i believe they re looking for ways to loophole the rules. For example, theres a argument that all chronium packs are F2P and as such you dont "purchase" them with real money.

    Of course they are.
    But the fact that packs can be bought for crystals F2P players receive via arena payouts / make-goods does not necessarily mean that it is OK to not tell P2P players the odds of their "investment".

    As I said in my edit above: Reluctance to show the odds clearly is a clear sign of predatory practices.
    In every lottery, in every gambling scenario, the odds are either known or can be calculated.
    Not so much in this game (and many other video/mobile games).
  • Casinos also do not post the odds of each game in the house. It'd be interesting to see what the Attorney General of Calif has to say on the status.
  • Casinos also do not post the odds of each game in the house. It'd be interesting to see what the Attorney General of Calif has to say on the status.

    Pretty much all casino games have well-known odds.
    Slots machines usually have around 95% payout rate (which should be defined by law).
    So the chances of winning are pretty much known (you lose 5$ for every 100$ you bet).
    Also, there's only one item you can win (money), so the win/lose structure is way simpler than in games like SWGOH.
  • Emmant
    93 posts Member
    Casino’s are subject to rules depending on their platforms just the same. In most casino games the “rules” allow for odds calculation/research - Also there are fundamental differences which makes it a rather weak comparison in my opinion

    Regardless, I definately applaud Apples initiative in the matter - Philosophically I feel that the moral thing to do is to provide transparency so people can make educated decisions - If a product, virtual or not, is a good product, transparency should not hinder it
  • Emmant wrote: »
    If a product, virtual or not, is a good product, transparency should not hinder it

    Exactly.
    I would even go as far as putting it this way:
    ....transparency WILL not hinder it.

    This is not a good sign regarding CG's confidence in the products they sell.
  • Emmant
    93 posts Member
    edited March 2018
    Well SoylentGreen

    CG has stood upon a tradition long established by trading card games like magic, basketball cards and so on and so forth...

    While tradition is an argument in the lines of “everybody else does it”, that does not make it more okay or right morally - I would quote the abolishment of slavery and such historical instances, where people have justified their actions with traditions, and change has been met with resistance from people in positions of power.

    Thus - now that an initiative to end this tradition/practice has been put forth, I can understand why CG would reserve time to consider it, regardless of my own belief in the matter, it is reasonable that it takes some time to adjust

    Edit: my point is that I do not agree that it clearly shows malicious intent to take reasonable time to consider/adjust
  • A voice of reason in these forums, I can't believe it!
    Thanks for your input, @Emmant ! Very well received! Chapeau!
  • Emmant
    93 posts Member
    However, in the spirit of the original post - I too am anticipating higher levels of communication in the road ahead - and this is definately a subject I will keep my eyes out for information regarding
  • As I understand it is that the rng chances only needs to be shown for loot boxes that can be purchased for cash. Not for boxes you get from ingame currency even if that currency was bought for cash in the first place.

    Is that correct or am I misunderstanding something?
    Ally code 428-543-243
  • @Human3001

    It’s not 100% clear, which is why the answer in Q/A states they are looking into how it affects swgoh I suppose.

    “Apps offering “loot boxes” or other mechanisms that provide randomized virtual items for purchase must disclose the odds of receiving each type of item to customers prior to purchase.”

    (Apple -
    https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#business)

    However, statements go further

    “In one sentence, Apple enacted a massive change that impacts the biggest iPhone games and iPhone game makers: "Apps offering 'loot boxes' or other mechanisms that provide randomized virtual items for purchase must disclose the odds of receiving each type of item to customers prior to purchase."

    Many of the top games on the iPhone, from "Hearthstone" to "Clash Royale," use loot boxes.

    You either earn them through play, or you outright pay real money for them, and they give you a randomized shot at earning beneficial virtual items. In "Hearthstone," that means packs of cards you can add to your deck - maybe you've got a 5:1 shot at getting a "rare," especially powerful card. But maybe the game doesn't tell you.

    Now, under Apple's new rule, the game must tell players "the odds of receiving each type of item" and it has to do that before purchase” (businessinsider.com)
  • Emmant
    93 posts Member
    edited March 2018
    personally I would assume the condition encompasses in game currency as well, at least if said currency can be bought with real money.

    Otherwise every company will sell VC to sell loot boxes exclusively (like swgoh)

    But this remains to be seen
  • I would imagine that most companies operating a loot box model will be evaluating their strategy going forward to see the options that are available rather than simply disclosing the odds.

    Companies have responsibilities to investors and so taking any action that could potentially hurt sales would never be welcomed.

    If CG disclosed tomorrow that the odds of 330 shards dropping on a single purchase was 100,000 to 1 for example, this may not put off players who typically max out characters but it would likely put off players who buying a couple of packs on the off-chance.
  • Emmant
    93 posts Member
    edited March 2018
    @Mattikin

    I concur with you - but then maybe the easy strategies are to tweak pricing or drop chances to the point where they are perceived by the consumer to be a worthwhile investment/gamble

    There are plenty other ways to pace a game than obscure low drop rates (if that is the case)

    If the product is good enough people will buy it

    If that was the case they might loose out on some whale money who spend all they have to for 7* but they would probably gain more repeat business from less spending customers, although this is pure speculation since I (we) don’t have access to the demographics of the revenue streams
  • The drop chances are so bad, they are going to resist this change as much as they can. I'm curious to know the chance to get 330 shards from the shard packs. Seems really sketchy they can't get behind what they offer with a little pride.
  • hi SoylentGreen,

    first, thanks for opening this discussion.


    i think it‘s only fair to know our chances.


    *330 shards...

    1%?
    0,01%?
    0,001%
    ...


    *upgrading speed secondary mods...

    do they have really the same chance as others to climb?
    (my experience makes me NOT BUY the mod-store mods, because they don‘t climb with the same possibility or rng hates me)


    *rng in the raid-awards

    there are player, who make a top3-rank and got no full gear piece 4 times... ;-)
    why should i play nearly an hour in haat, if a guild-member posts his full piece for rank 14 and i got only.....
    btw we never saw a full gear12 material since our first territory battle... frustrating with the time!


    what‘s the problem with showing us the chances?
    total easy!
    if the chances are bad and we don‘t buy cards, mods, ... then they have to change them.

    so what?

    nobody will quit the game if his chances are better but i‘m sure some player will leave if they got only bad odds for his crystals/dollars/euros...





  • Nikoms565
    14242 posts Member
    A minor aside: most of the Q&A session was inadequate. Based on the fact that they dropped the CLS event with no communication (not even the usual "hints") it seems that it was mostly a PR spin move.

    I will be honestly surprised if 3 months from now there is anything palpably different from a player's perspective about this game. At least any differences that are seen in a positive light. I realize that may sound a bit harsh, but I've played this game since launch. If I had a nickel for every "we hear you" and promises to do better, I could buy a vault.
    In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
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  • EPMAN
    76 posts Member
    You dont need any numbers, just expect to get the lowest and worst, if you are ok with that you can bye, if not, dont.
  • Stop asking for this information please let me answer this so it can stop this is about Apple and google both companies have to comply with laws that only apply for the United Kingdom and that’s all it’s about if you don’t live there then you will never get the odds as it only applies for them under.geveva convention rules or whatever but it’s just for that country and the laws that apply for them only hopefully this will stop this ridiculous amount of the same posts that are taking up to much space for more important things
  • scuba
    14034 posts Member
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    A minor aside: most of the Q&A session was inadequate. Based on the fact that they dropped the CLS event with no communication (not even the usual "hints") it seems that it was mostly a PR spin move.

    I will be honestly surprised if 3 months from now there is anything palpably different from a player's perspective about this game
    . At least any differences that are seen in a positive light. I realize that may sound a bit harsh, but I've played this game since launch. If I had a nickel for every "we hear you" and promises to do better, I could buy a vault.

    I hope you are wrong but well.... History.
    Remember those dev updates that happen every Friday, till they just decided to stop and not tell anyone why.
    We have had dev Q&A before that just stopped
    We had a reliable schedule for EP/Yoda events (every other month) that just stopped.

    These things just stopped happening with no communication as to why. So.... Yeah.... History.
    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it
  • scuba
    14034 posts Member
    Emmant wrote: »
    Casino’s are subject to rules depending on their platforms just the same. In most casino games the “rules” allow for odds calculation/research - Also there are fundamental differences which makes it a rather weak comparison in my opinion

    Regardless, I definately applaud Apples initiative in the matter - Philosophically I feel that the moral thing to do is to provide transparency so people can make educated decisions - If a product, virtual or not, is a good product, transparency should not hinder it

    You applaud apple in leaving a possible loop hole?

    Apple is a business just like any other and they now about use and provide loopholes.

    Had Apple new policy defined the word "purchase" to include virtual, in game and real/hard currency I might give them credit. However all Apple did was leave them and others a loophole, most likely on purpose, and get the consumers hopes up.
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