Sith raid nerf?

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Just checking in to see if the devs have decided to change the raid to make actually enjoyable. No? You think it “WAI?” Do you really not like your player base that much? Because it needs to be fixed.

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  • Sewpot
    2010 posts Member
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    No I like it as is please leave it alone.
    Agree it’s a tough one but in time we have beat heroic.
    People with bigger guilds and rosters need end game content as to not get bored.
  • Fanatic
    415 posts Member
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    Given that "enjoyable" is highly subjective, you are going to need to be a bit more specific than that.

    I don't enjoy the inconsistent behavior with when DN gets to use annihilate or not. Sometimes its got a CD of 1 remaining, and after his first basic attack it goes down to zero and he annihilates one toon. Usually the CD doesn't change though until after he has taken both moves, leaving annihilate for the following set of actions he gets. (And no I'm not talking about him using force drain for his first action - that while annoying, is at least predictable).

    I do enjoy fighting against Sion and Traya though, so... what do you mean by enjoyable?
  • Options
    Fanatic wrote: »
    Given that "enjoyable" is highly subjective, you are going to need to be a bit more specific than that.

    I don't enjoy the inconsistent behavior with when DN gets to use annihilate or not. Sometimes its got a CD of 1 remaining, and after his first basic attack it goes down to zero and he annihilates one toon. Usually the CD doesn't change though until after he has taken both moves, leaving annihilate for the following set of actions he gets. (And no I'm not talking about him using force drain for his first action - that while annoying, is at least predictable).

    I do enjoy fighting against Sion and Traya though, so... what do you mean by enjoyable?

    I think everyone knows what enjoyable means and what this guy means. It is NOT an enjoyable raid. Many youtubers and easily 60 to 65% of the player base is not having fun with the Sith Raid. The AAT raid, while tough, is managable and provides uniqueness. Rencor raid is more enjoyable and offers better rewards as well.

    It could be the reward system is better than the Sith Raid and the fact that the other raids dont feel like its dragging for weeks. My raid finished the sith raid in 2 weeks..anyone attacking the sith can barely achieve 1% damage or maybe 2%.
    Other raids a single attack could yield 4 to 5%. You feel more accomplished.
    At least thats my opinion
  • Vertigo
    4497 posts Member
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    Fanatic wrote: »
    Given that "enjoyable" is highly subjective, you are going to need to be a bit more specific than that.

    I don't enjoy the inconsistent behavior with when DN gets to use annihilate or not. Sometimes its got a CD of 1 remaining, and after his first basic attack it goes down to zero and he annihilates one toon. Usually the CD doesn't change though until after he has taken both moves, leaving annihilate for the following set of actions he gets. (And no I'm not talking about him using force drain for his first action - that while annoying, is at least predictable).

    I do enjoy fighting against Sion and Traya though, so... what do you mean by enjoyable?

    If his basic attack dispels any buffs it reduces the cooldown of Drain Force AND Annihilate by 1. So if Annihilate is on a cooldown of 1, he uses his basic and strips any buffs, the cooldown is reduced immediately and he can use annihilate. When that's the case try to make sure someone uses the shield skill while they have a buff so he's forced to attack them, and then annihilate. If the person with the shield skill isn't buffed, but others are you're kinda screwed. At that point just retreat and let RNG take you away yet again.

    Now, I didn't say this was enjoyable, just pointing out that Annihilate isn't random. Phase 1 is just a huge turn-off to most guilds that aren't extremely competitive, while I like that they've started making more use of raid mechanics with the Sith Raid, P1 is much more difficult to manage than the others which is rather annoying.
  • Options
    Fanatic wrote: »
    Given that "enjoyable" is highly subjective, you are going to need to be a bit more specific than that.

    I don't enjoy the inconsistent behavior with when DN gets to use annihilate or not. Sometimes its got a CD of 1 remaining, and after his first basic attack it goes down to zero and he annihilates one toon. Usually the CD doesn't change though until after he has taken both moves, leaving annihilate for the following set of actions he gets. (And no I'm not talking about him using force drain for his first action - that while annoying, is at least predictable).

    I do enjoy fighting against Sion and Traya though, so... what do you mean by enjoyable?

    I think everyone knows what enjoyable means and what this guy means. It is NOT an enjoyable raid. Many youtubers and easily 60 to 65% of the player base is not having fun with the Sith Raid. The AAT raid, while tough, is managable and provides uniqueness. Rencor raid is more enjoyable and offers better rewards as well.

    It could be the reward system is better than the Sith Raid and the fact that the other raids dont feel like its dragging for weeks. My raid finished the sith raid in 2 weeks..anyone attacking the sith can barely achieve 1% damage or maybe 2%.
    Other raids a single attack could yield 4 to 5%. You feel more accomplished.
    At least thats my opinion

    You can do 5% at Heroic. Leaders and officers need to do the maths and determine how many of the ok teams their guild has before attempting heroic. Heroic has much lower HP so just need to say 'do we have 20-25 JTR teams for Phase 1 or do I have 20-25 zHan teams for P3 etc.

    Mid tier guilds should plan for the next 3 days gap between TW and TB and maybe bring in 5-10 mercenaries who can deal good damage in heroic sith to get you across the line
  • Fanatic
    415 posts Member
    edited March 2018
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    I think everyone knows what enjoyable means and what this guy means. It is NOT an enjoyable raid. Many youtubers and easily 60 to 65% of the player base is not having fun with the Sith Raid. The AAT raid, while tough, is managable and provides uniqueness. Rencor raid is more enjoyable and offers better rewards as well.

    It could be the reward system is better than the Sith Raid and the fact that the other raids dont feel like its dragging for weeks. My raid finished the sith raid in 2 weeks..anyone attacking the sith can barely achieve 1% damage or maybe 2%.
    Other raids a single attack could yield 4 to 5%. You feel more accomplished.
    At least thats my opinion

    Coming to the boards and saying "I hate the sith raid" isn't useful to the dev team. Coming and saying "I hate the sith raid because of X, Y, and Z" is. Assuming x, y, and z are meaningful points. e.g, I hate DN's inconsistency in using annihilate.

    As for comparing gear, I don't think that is a meaningful comparison. I'd much rather have a couple of pieces of t12 gear salvage over the heroic rancor drops (mostly challenge gear... sigh). I could agree with you I'd like to see more than 2-3 pieces of each salvage gear, but that is a different issue.

    And if it took your guild 2 weeks to clear the sith raid, what tier level is your guild doing? Is your guild 50 members? Did all members participate? Saying it took two weeks and nothing more doesn't really say anything. For all we know you have a guild of ten, and you are the only person who was attacking it during those two weeks.

    Now if you say something like "we are a 75M gp guild and it took us two weeks to clear t6" that is more useful information, but then at 75m gp, t6 probably isn't the tier for your guild to be doing yet. That's the equivalent of complaining rancor t6 is to hard and to boring for a 10m gp guild. Build your roster up to it. It will take time of course, but that is expected if you aren't in a 140m+ gp guild.
    Post edited by Fanatic on
  • Options
    Probably later.. if do the nerf now, gigantic guild will protest bcause it's allow other people (FTP) to get traya. But few months after gigantic guild get their traya *7 probably there will be sith raid nerf.

    Add : Indicator there will be nerf usually there is complaint from gigantic guild. But i haven't see one. Mostly from medium n small guild.
  • TVF
    36742 posts Member
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    Changed how?

    Our guild took weeks to beat Rancor heroic. It took us a month for Tank heroic.

    We cleared heroic Sith from day one.

    This is by far the easiest raid at launch. We already are putting in rules because we clear it too fast for everyone to record a 0.

    You don't think it has anything to do with the progress you've made as a guild between the time you cleared the Rancor and now?

    "By far the easiest raid at launch" is both relative and subjective.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Options
    There's literally nothing wrong with the raid.

    You need to either get into a better guild, or build the proper teams and learn the mechanics.

    H-AAT was the same way when it first launched. It was difficult and everyone hated it. Eventually after it has been out for a bit and people have figured out the ideal comps, it will become trivial.

    Until then, your options have been listed above.
  • TVF
    36742 posts Member
    edited March 2018
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    nvm, going round in circles.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Naraic
    2243 posts Member
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    Gear xiii and level 90 will nerf the Sith raid. No harm giving the game space to grow.
  • Mullato
    2582 posts Member
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    TVF wrote: »
    Changed how?

    Our guild took weeks to beat Rancor heroic. It took us a month for Tank heroic.

    We cleared heroic Sith from day one.

    This is by far the easiest raid at launch. We already are putting in rules because we clear it too fast for everyone to record a 0.

    You don't think it has anything to do with the progress you've made as a guild between the time you cleared the Rancor and now?

    "By far the easiest raid at launch" is both relative and subjective.

    No way, his entire guild has the exact same rosters as 2 years ago.
  • Nikoms565
    14242 posts Member
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    I went to bed with my guild entering p2 Sith Heroic. I woke up in 4. I slept for 6 hours. Phase 4 lasted about 2 hours. We're not even a "Top Guild" - several f2p long-time players and a few whales. Most of us are just guppies who have played since launch.

    It's end-game content. It's supposed to be hard if you've only been playing for a year or less. I think it's WAI.
    In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • Mullato
    2582 posts Member
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    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    I went to bed with my guild entering p2 Sith Heroic. I woke up in 4. I slept for 6 hours. Phase 4 lasted about 2 hours. We're not even a "Top Guild" - several f2p long-time players and a few whales. Most of us are just guppies who have played since launch.

    It's end-game content. It's supposed to be hard if you've only been playing for a year or less. I think it's WAI.

    Get more sleep!
    Good for the body.
    But not too much!
  • Waqui
    8802 posts Member
    edited March 2018
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    Just checking in to see if the devs have decided to change the raid to make actually enjoyable.

    Keep an eye out for various viable teams for the raid. Videos and posts are popping up everywhere. There are quite a few reports of viable tier 6 teams composed of farmable toons or legendary toons, that have been around for a while. JC, JE, GAT, FOO, Hera f.ex. for phase 1.

  • Options
    Vertigo wrote: »
    If his basic attack dispels any buffs it reduces the cooldown of Drain Force AND Annihilate by 1. So if Annihilate is on a cooldown of 1, he uses his basic and strips any buffs, the cooldown is reduced immediately and he can use annihilate. When that's the case try to make sure someone uses the shield skill while they have a buff so he's forced to attack them, and then annihilate. If the person with the shield skill isn't buffed, but others are you're kinda screwed. At that point just retreat and let RNG take you away yet again.

    Now, I didn't say this was enjoyable, just pointing out that Annihilate isn't random. Phase 1 is just a huge turn-off to most guilds that aren't extremely competitive, while I like that they've started making more use of raid mechanics with the Sith Raid, P1 is much more difficult to manage than the others which is rather annoying.

    Thank you. I was missing that piece of info.
  • Ender22
    1194 posts Member
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    I’m enjoying this raid thoroughly! Almost a little disappointed that it is this easy.. but, at some point it’s be impossible to create a raid that is tough enough. I still enjoy competing with my guild mates for the better scores
  • Options
    A complaint that I've been seeing a lot is that so many people find the raid tedious that their guilds are not participating or just putting in teams and tapping "Auto".

    The raid may be doable in its current form, but if it isn't fun, then this game kinda fails as a game. Games are supposed to be fun, that's kinda their entire purpose.
  • Ender22
    1194 posts Member
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    The rewards are definitely worth more than just an auto. Don’t know if my guild would be able to complete it on auto. Perhaps a 160mil+ can
  • Options
    i hink this raidd isnt hard overall it only sucks cuz of p1...and hero8c is very easy overall also... its just a matter of guild all participating and doing there part.... my guild is 118mil and almost completed heroic... only reason we didnt was lack of jtr...... 25jtr...25 imp troopers.. and 25 chex mix. and 1st 3 phases are done and it will get easier as new char. are released that are built directly to the raid... 6 months from now everyone will be saying sith raids to easy we need a new raid thats harder....... everything is a repeating cycle even ppls complaining if you could look back to AAT release u would see these exact same complaints... but i do agree that this raid is not fun and will cause some ppl to leave the game once u get to fi ish heroic prizes are great but until then raid prizes suck
  • Options
    Vertigo wrote: »
    Fanatic wrote: »
    Given that "enjoyable" is highly subjective, you are going to need to be a bit more specific than that.

    I don't enjoy the inconsistent behavior with when DN gets to use annihilate or not. Sometimes its got a CD of 1 remaining, and after his first basic attack it goes down to zero and he annihilates one toon. Usually the CD doesn't change though until after he has taken both moves, leaving annihilate for the following set of actions he gets. (And no I'm not talking about him using force drain for his first action - that while annoying, is at least predictable).

    I do enjoy fighting against Sion and Traya though, so... what do you mean by enjoyable?

    If his basic attack dispels any buffs it reduces the cooldown of Drain Force AND Annihilate by 1. So if Annihilate is on a cooldown of 1, he uses his basic and strips any buffs, the cooldown is reduced immediately and he can use annihilate. When that's the case try to make sure someone uses the shield skill while they have a buff so he's forced to attack them, and then annihilate. If the person with the shield skill isn't buffed, but others are you're kinda screwed. At that point just retreat and let RNG take you away yet again.

    Now, I didn't say this was enjoyable, just pointing out that Annihilate isn't random. Phase 1 is just a huge turn-off to most guilds that aren't extremely competitive, while I like that they've started making more use of raid mechanics with the Sith Raid, P1 is much more difficult to manage than the others which is rather annoying.

    I may be mis-reading what you say but, nihilus sometimes gets annihilate useable on his bonus action (which you've prepared for and used the shield) but then just does a normal attack rather than use it, meaning you've wasted a shield, and next turn he uses it and you're screwed. It's WAI as per the devs, but it's making it a bigger time sink having to retreat if this happens early to one of your better toons.

    Fyi I enjoy the raid and attack all phases every day, I can just understand people's frustrations.
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
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    A complaint that I've been seeing a lot is that so many people find the raid tedious that their guilds are not participating or just putting in teams and tapping "Auto".

    The raid may be doable in its current form, but if it isn't fun, then this game kinda fails as a game. Games are supposed to be fun, that's kinda their entire purpose.

    "Yes, i finally have a team that can auto the rancor. It's so much fun !"
    "Man, that new sith raid is tedious, i'll just auto my teams."

    Save water, drink champagne!
  • VonZant
    3843 posts Member
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    For me personally, all dislike of the raid revolves around Nihilus parts. The mechanics are slightly annoying but that isnt it. Its the fact that I have to fight him 4 times for for a total of 20 squads. My 60M guild has 1 JTR and we do t4. So I have to spend 5 teams twice in phase 1 and 5 teams twice in phase 4 - JUST on Nihilus parts. So that tedium coupled with the fact that his mechanic is annoying just sours the whole raid. They just need to reduce his HP in the lower tier raids so us lessers dont have to fight him 4 times. Fix that and the raid is much better off the bat.
  • Options
    Artery wrote: »
    Vertigo wrote: »
    Fanatic wrote: »
    Given that "enjoyable" is highly subjective, you are going to need to be a bit more specific than that.

    I don't enjoy the inconsistent behavior with when DN gets to use annihilate or not. Sometimes its got a CD of 1 remaining, and after his first basic attack it goes down to zero and he annihilates one toon. Usually the CD doesn't change though until after he has taken both moves, leaving annihilate for the following set of actions he gets. (And no I'm not talking about him using force drain for his first action - that while annoying, is at least predictable).

    I do enjoy fighting against Sion and Traya though, so... what do you mean by enjoyable?

    If his basic attack dispels any buffs it reduces the cooldown of Drain Force AND Annihilate by 1. So if Annihilate is on a cooldown of 1, he uses his basic and strips any buffs, the cooldown is reduced immediately and he can use annihilate. When that's the case try to make sure someone uses the shield skill while they have a buff so he's forced to attack them, and then annihilate. If the person with the shield skill isn't buffed, but others are you're kinda screwed. At that point just retreat and let RNG take you away yet again.

    Now, I didn't say this was enjoyable, just pointing out that Annihilate isn't random. Phase 1 is just a huge turn-off to most guilds that aren't extremely competitive, while I like that they've started making more use of raid mechanics with the Sith Raid, P1 is much more difficult to manage than the others which is rather annoying.

    I may be mis-reading what you say but, nihilus sometimes gets annihilate useable on his bonus action (which you've prepared for and used the shield) but then just does a normal attack rather than use it, meaning you've wasted a shield, and next turn he uses it and you're screwed. It's WAI as per the devs, but it's making it a bigger time sink having to retreat if this happens early to one of your better toons.

    Fyi I enjoy the raid and attack all phases every day, I can just understand people's frustrations.

    Agreed. The unpredictability of DN isn't fun, it's frustrating. All the other elements of this Raid I like (except maybe the health pools are too high in T1-6), but Annihilate shouldn't reduce cool down by 1 for removing a buff if the in game toon doesn't do the same. Plus, when he doesn't prioritize annihilate for his attack when the counter is at 0 you're left with a situation where the next toon you can use to put up defensive shield may not get a turn before him and you're sunk.
  • Vertigo
    4497 posts Member
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    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    Artery wrote: »
    Vertigo wrote: »
    Fanatic wrote: »
    Given that "enjoyable" is highly subjective, you are going to need to be a bit more specific than that.

    I don't enjoy the inconsistent behavior with when DN gets to use annihilate or not. Sometimes its got a CD of 1 remaining, and after his first basic attack it goes down to zero and he annihilates one toon. Usually the CD doesn't change though until after he has taken both moves, leaving annihilate for the following set of actions he gets. (And no I'm not talking about him using force drain for his first action - that while annoying, is at least predictable).

    I do enjoy fighting against Sion and Traya though, so... what do you mean by enjoyable?

    If his basic attack dispels any buffs it reduces the cooldown of Drain Force AND Annihilate by 1. So if Annihilate is on a cooldown of 1, he uses his basic and strips any buffs, the cooldown is reduced immediately and he can use annihilate. When that's the case try to make sure someone uses the shield skill while they have a buff so he's forced to attack them, and then annihilate. If the person with the shield skill isn't buffed, but others are you're kinda screwed. At that point just retreat and let RNG take you away yet again.

    Now, I didn't say this was enjoyable, just pointing out that Annihilate isn't random. Phase 1 is just a huge turn-off to most guilds that aren't extremely competitive, while I like that they've started making more use of raid mechanics with the Sith Raid, P1 is much more difficult to manage than the others which is rather annoying.

    I may be mis-reading what you say but, nihilus sometimes gets annihilate useable on his bonus action (which you've prepared for and used the shield) but then just does a normal attack rather than use it, meaning you've wasted a shield, and next turn he uses it and you're screwed. It's WAI as per the devs, but it's making it a bigger time sink having to retreat if this happens early to one of your better toons.

    Fyi I enjoy the raid and attack all phases every day, I can just understand people's frustrations.

    Agreed. The unpredictability of DN isn't fun, it's frustrating. All the other elements of this Raid I like (except maybe the health pools are too high in T1-6), but Annihilate shouldn't reduce cool down by 1 for removing a buff if the in game toon doesn't do the same. Plus, when he doesn't prioritize annihilate for his attack when the counter is at 0 you're left with a situation where the next toon you can use to put up defensive shield may not get a turn before him and you're sunk.

    Priorities of Nihilus:
    1) Summoning the Sith Assassin + Sith Marauder
    2) Annihilate
    3) Drain Force
    4) Basic

    Basic Removing a buff reduces cooldown of Drain Force AND Annihilate by 1.
    Drain Force reduces cooldown of Annihilate when it hits a debuffed toon.

    Note that neither of those two abilities work exactly the way the toon we can use works. The playable version of Nihilus Basic attack only reduces the cooldown of Drain Force when it dispels, AND the playable version's Drain Force still has a 50% chance to increase cooldowns of people without debuffs. I'm actually glad the Devs removed the RNG in that one as to actually make Annihilate somewhat predictable based on the debuffs your team has.
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
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    @Vertigo
    i'm sure your comment is mostly ignored because people prefer complaining over understanding, but you've actually helped me out. Mistook his 2 moves for 2 turns because the CD timer went down.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • Options
    Vertigo wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    Artery wrote: »
    Vertigo wrote: »
    Fanatic wrote: »
    Given that "enjoyable" is highly subjective, you are going to need to be a bit more specific than that.

    I don't enjoy the inconsistent behavior with when DN gets to use annihilate or not. Sometimes its got a CD of 1 remaining, and after his first basic attack it goes down to zero and he annihilates one toon. Usually the CD doesn't change though until after he has taken both moves, leaving annihilate for the following set of actions he gets. (And no I'm not talking about him using force drain for his first action - that while annoying, is at least predictable).

    I do enjoy fighting against Sion and Traya though, so... what do you mean by enjoyable?

    If his basic attack dispels any buffs it reduces the cooldown of Drain Force AND Annihilate by 1. So if Annihilate is on a cooldown of 1, he uses his basic and strips any buffs, the cooldown is reduced immediately and he can use annihilate. When that's the case try to make sure someone uses the shield skill while they have a buff so he's forced to attack them, and then annihilate. If the person with the shield skill isn't buffed, but others are you're kinda screwed. At that point just retreat and let RNG take you away yet again.

    Now, I didn't say this was enjoyable, just pointing out that Annihilate isn't random. Phase 1 is just a huge turn-off to most guilds that aren't extremely competitive, while I like that they've started making more use of raid mechanics with the Sith Raid, P1 is much more difficult to manage than the others which is rather annoying.

    I may be mis-reading what you say but, nihilus sometimes gets annihilate useable on his bonus action (which you've prepared for and used the shield) but then just does a normal attack rather than use it, meaning you've wasted a shield, and next turn he uses it and you're screwed. It's WAI as per the devs, but it's making it a bigger time sink having to retreat if this happens early to one of your better toons.

    Fyi I enjoy the raid and attack all phases every day, I can just understand people's frustrations.

    Agreed. The unpredictability of DN isn't fun, it's frustrating. All the other elements of this Raid I like (except maybe the health pools are too high in T1-6), but Annihilate shouldn't reduce cool down by 1 for removing a buff if the in game toon doesn't do the same. Plus, when he doesn't prioritize annihilate for his attack when the counter is at 0 you're left with a situation where the next toon you can use to put up defensive shield may not get a turn before him and you're sunk.

    Priorities of Nihilus:
    1) Summoning the Sith Assassin + Sith Marauder
    2) Annihilate
    3) Drain Force
    4) Basic

    Basic Removing a buff reduces cooldown of Drain Force AND Annihilate by 1.
    Drain Force reduces cooldown of Annihilate when it hits a debuffed toon.

    Note that neither of those two abilities work exactly the way the toon we can use works. The playable version of Nihilus Basic attack only reduces the cooldown of Drain Force when it dispels, AND the playable version's Drain Force still has a 50% chance to increase cooldowns of people without debuffs. I'm actually glad the Devs removed the RNG in that one as to actually make Annihilate somewhat predictable based on the debuffs your team has.

    This is very helpful. I'm curious where you discovered it because I couldn't find that info when I read the raid mechanics on https://swgoh.gg/db/raids/the-sith-triumvirate/
  • TVF
    36742 posts Member
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    You can figure it out by watching in what order he makes his moves when they're all available.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
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