Easiest fix for Arena collusion/shard-chart

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Graives
49 posts Member
Here's an idea that would probably make that sort of thing just about nonviable. Pretty sure it wouldn't be a heavy lift for CG, either.

Re-arrange the Arena shards by crystal payout times in as big of blocks as possible.

If you have literally hundreds, if not thousands of players, on the same shard who can only have the same payout time... I doubt you'd see as many third party groups form to rotate people through the top spots. For example, if you had a group of 20 that was intent on giving each member a chance at #1, then a single person could only stand in line to get #1 for a single time every 20 days. No other time slots would be available for that shard. Just that one. You wouldn't be able to organize a bunch of smaller subgroups into different payout time/rank rotations.

tl:dr -- drastically increase the competition for a single payout time slot by creating shards that are defined by a single crystal payout time.

Replies

  • Vertigo
    4020 posts Member
    Someone's bitter.
  • Vertigo wrote: »
    Someone's bitter.

    This and saltier then the ocean lol
  • Waqui
    3264 posts Member
    By doing so, you would end up with shards, where some players didn't join the arena until months after the first person joined (assuming an even distribution of players at each payout time and a shard taking several days to fill). At least that would be the case when reshuffling younger shards. That wouldn't be fair.
  • Darthpedro
    1175 posts Member
    And the people who complain about shard chats will be even more upset because they'll do even worse lol
  • five2zero
    441 posts Member
    edited May 15
    You only need to stop the payout time, but CG like Mafia Player.
    Make a 24h average and all player has the same chance. Not like it is now.
  • Nikoms565
    9479 posts Member
    This might be the worst suggestion I have ever seen for fixing the perceived "issue" of arena payout. The "TL;DR" section sound have simply said "fix arena by making it even worse".
    In game name: Lucas Gregory - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

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    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
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  • Ploosh
    564 posts Member
    Uhhh, isn't this what Marvel Strike Force does??? And it sucks and is a stupid way to do it. There's like zero competition outside of the top 10 whales in every shard, cuz everybody just sits at the same spots and never has a real chance to climb. Oh, and after the first 5 battles, every individual refresh costs crystals. I bet you're in favor of that too. All this would do is drastically decrease everyones crystals.

    PS: I'm not in a shard chat even tho I take top 10 pretty much every day. We've got a bunch of bigshot elitists that hellbent on keeping everyone out of the top 10. So I feel your pain ... but this is a horrible idea born of bitterness.
  • leef
    10504 posts Member
    "easiest" haha
    Also, the more crouded your pay-out is, the more it pays of to work together with a select few. Your proposed "fix" just decreases the amount of crystals won by the players drastically, but won't stop players from trying to get a leg up by working togehter instead of against eachother.
    I'm getting so gosh darn tired of all these anti shard chat threads, especially the ones where the OP claims his fix is "easy". I've got the growing supspision that most of these threads are made by noobs looking for something else to blame but themselfes.
    most =/= all
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • Huatimus
    2875 posts Member
    Dangit, I was hoping that nobody would reply and this thread will just die quietly and be sent to the Graives.
  • Darthpedro
    1175 posts Member
    Huatimus wrote: »
    Dangit, I was hoping that nobody would reply and this thread will just die quietly and be sent to the Graives.

    I see what you did there.
  • Graives
    49 posts Member
    Vertigo wrote: »
    Someone's bitter.

    This and saltier then the ocean lol

    Let's pretend for a second you guys are correct and not simply projecting your own bias.

    Please explain for the audience why you feel I might be bitter and/or salty over this issue without merely supporting the argument that a fairer system should be put in place.
  • leef
    10504 posts Member
    Graives wrote: »
    Vertigo wrote: »
    Someone's bitter.

    This and saltier then the ocean lol

    Let's pretend for a second you guys are correct and not simply projecting your own bias.

    Please explain for the audience why you feel I might be bitter and/or salty over this issue without merely supporting the argument that a fairer system should be put in place.

    obviously because the system you propose makes matters worse for everyone, colluder and non-colluder alike. Why would anyone suggest such a system if it were not out of salty/bitterness? Your post reeks of the good ol' "if i can't have it, no one should have it" sentiment.
    I'd also like to note that working together with your shardmates isn't necessarily unfair, working against specific other shardmates is a bit though.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • Graives
    49 posts Member
    leef wrote: »
    obviously because the system you propose makes matters worse for everyone, colluder and non-colluder alike. Why would anyone suggest such a system if it were not out of salty/bitterness? Your post reeks of the good ol' "if i can't have it, no one should have it" sentiment.
    I'd also like to note that working together with your shardmates isn't necessarily unfair, working against specific other shardmates is a bit though.

    Except ... someone would have it. Probably a different person every day, despite what some of the posts above imply. If you have a 100 whales sitting at the same payout time, for example, are they going to be happy letting the same dude win every single day? I'm suggesting of a way to remove the incentive to collude. There are probably better ways, granted. Someone above mentioned basing the reward on the highest rank you achieve in a 24hr period. That's a good idea too... but again, I've seen folks buck against that idea too in other threads. I suppose they don't like the idea of larger groups of people getting larger crystal rewards.

    Here's another couple of questions. Answer them honestly, please.

    Does every player in every shard have equal and open access to every relevant shard chat? Yes or no?

    Are specific players ever targeted by groups of shard-chatters to prevent said players from achieving a certain Arena rank? Yes or no?



  • xeynx
    38 posts Member
    The problem isn't the collusion per se. Nor is it the payout times (other than people who are screwed due to time zone being way off from where they are.)

    The problem is the weight of the crystal rewards in relation to the other aspects of the game. It's weighted to arena. If they made it more balanced across the modes in terms of crystal rewards, perhaps people wouldn't feel like this is such a vital part of the game.

    Unfortunately, I don't have a way to "rebalance" it to put those other modes on a more even footing.
    Some people prefer PVE over the arenas (I'm one of those.) But absent some method that was fair to replace them, you gotta roll with how it is and just keep asking for some change.

    Your idea would single handled take a slight annoyance here and there and turn it into a cluster. I already have enough problems competing against whales that started when I started, now you'd want me to deal with a whale with a 2-3 year account that could probably beat me with an all Han team =p? I would prefer not.
  • Graives
    49 posts Member
    xeynx wrote: »
    Your idea would single handled take a slight annoyance here and there and turn it into a cluster. I already have enough problems competing against whales that started when I started, now you'd want me to deal with a whale with a 2-3 year account that could probably beat me with an all Han team =p? I would prefer not.

    So how is that different from present day? Are you currently not competing against whales, or are you on a shard chat that gives you a rank?

    Apparently, there's a reddit thread up about this that one of the moderators here asked someone to start to take the topic off site. A lot of good ideas over there.

    One idea that wouldn't change anything about the current makeup is to simply hide the names of the teams you're facing. People could probably work it out eventually, but it would take a whole other level of communication to keep everyone's team straight. But... y'know. Do a good shard shuffle, then hide everybody's name. Only show the names on the daily ladders. The current Arena system stays in place... but everyone has to compete blindly.

  • Even easier way to fix - Remove crystal reward.
  • TVF
    6603 posts Member
    Even easier way to fix - Remove crystal reward.

    I can't believe someone found a worse solution but there it is.
  • leef
    10504 posts Member
    Lets say they ended cooperation between players in arena alltogether. Doesn't matter how, it's just a hypothetical question. Then what would happen? How would it be better than how it currently is?
    Would the top ranks look much different than how they currently look? I personally doubt they will, it will just be more of a hassle to deal with.
    There obviously also are downsides to shard chats. However, i'm willing to wager more players by far are affected possitively than there are players affected negatively. I mean really affected, not those players who barely crack the top50 and blame it on shardchats. I'm talking about the players who get targetted immediately when they enter the top20/top10.
    I must admit, if you're one of those players affected negatively by shard chats, it truly sucks. But i can't help but wonder whether the majority of players complaining about shard chats is actually affected negatively by them though. Consequenty i also wonder if by preventing cooperation the devs would just make life worse for the players partaking in those shard chats without making life better for the ones who are complaining about the cooperation, since it may very well not be the cause of why they're complaining, but just the easiest to put the blame on.
    I'm obviously biased, but who isn't?

    Save water, drink champagne!
  • Ok once players hit level 85 rotate them through shards weekly
  • Vertigo
    4020 posts Member
    Ok once players hit level 85 rotate them through shards weekly

    The difference between someone who is just reached lvl 85 and someone who has been playing since launch and is lvl 85 is extremely large. This would only benefit longtime players and make any new players really upset when they reach the level cap. Basically that's an awful idea.
  • xeynx
    38 posts Member
    Graives wrote: »
    xeynx wrote: »
    Your idea would single handled take a slight annoyance here and there and turn it into a cluster. I already have enough problems competing against whales that started when I started, now you'd want me to deal with a whale with a 2-3 year account that could probably beat me with an all Han team =p? I would prefer not.

    So how is that different from present day? Are you currently not competing against whales, or are you on a shard chat that gives you a rank?

    Apparently, there's a reddit thread up about this that one of the moderators here asked someone to start to take the topic off site. A lot of good ideas over there.

    One idea that wouldn't change anything about the current makeup is to simply hide the names of the teams you're facing. People could probably work it out eventually, but it would take a whole other level of communication to keep everyone's team straight. But... y'know. Do a good shard shuffle, then hide everybody's name. Only show the names on the daily ladders. The current Arena system stays in place... but everyone has to compete blindly.

    How is it different? Because the whales I compete against don't have 2+ years worth of mod farming for god mods. I have a chance to win, where against someone who's been farming mods for 2+ years for their arena meta I probably do not. It's plausible because RNG, just less likely.

    Are there shards with people that aren't whales that are 2+ years? Sure, but they've also had the opportunity to farm mods too for 2+ years.

    The shard chat can create coordination, and depending on how nice the people are in your shard chat, might guarantee you a nice position (whether that's 1st, 2nd, or 10th).

    Hiding the name of the teams: Wouldn't stop my shard chat. We'd just end up with a bot for people to do something like this: /arena rank 12. Then people could just look at the ranks of everyone around them and still coordinate payouts. So all you do is introduce another bot to solve that particular problem.

    Shard shuffle? How would this work? Again, the shards are devised around everyone obtaining arena level at around the same time. (Or is it account start, I can't remember which.) Shuffling the shards does nothing other than create work for CG, which they've said isn't happening.

    Trust me, I'm no lover of the arenas period, and I'm in the top 0.05% (yes 5 hundredths of a percent) of my shard. I'm all for new ideas, but my opinion is that this particular idea wouldn't work.

    I would rather see the "best rank in 24 hours." Even though we know that it's unlikely they'd implement it. It seems more people support that.

    I'd rather see arena crystals reduced and redistributed to other (or a new mode) than this proposal. Obviously, that's the issue, what new mode could they add to move those crystals to? That is the true problem, as I've mentioned in other threads, that the arena carries too much weight compared to the other modes. It's basically saying "we're glad you enjoy all the different parts of the game, but they're less important than arenas." This is the case given the skewing of crystal rewards in arena versus, say, GW.
  • Graives
    49 posts Member
    leef wrote: »
    "easiest" haha
    Also, the more crouded your pay-out is, the more it pays of to work together with a select few.

    "Select" few. Select. Who gets to decide the "select"? And is it a fair, even-handed, open-to-all process? Yes, or no?

    Are specific players targeted by some shard chats for the express purposes of denying that player a progression in rank? Yes or no?
  • Vertigo
    4020 posts Member
    edited May 15
    Graives wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    "easiest" haha
    Also, the more crouded your pay-out is, the more it pays of to work together with a select few.

    "Select" few. Select. Who gets to decide the "select"? And is it a fair, even-handed, open-to-all process? Yes, or no?

    Are specific players targeted by some shard chats for the express purposes of denying that player a progression in rank? Yes or no?

    Pick the nicest ones, people who want to be rude or mean can deal with getting locked out. If they're gonna be cooperative, theres no reason not to let them join. That's how our arena chat works. We find people and tell them how we share, and if they don't want to share they're welcome to leave, although everyone seems to be ok with sharing despite the fact that we have 9 people rotating top spots for one payout. Sure that means you're only guaranteed 1st once in over a weeks span, but it's so much better than trying to deal with 9 people sniping and locking themselves.
  • Graives
    49 posts Member
    xeynx wrote: »
    and depending on how nice the people are in your shard chat, might guarantee you a nice position (whether that's 1st, 2nd, or 10th).
    Vertigo wrote: »
    Pick the nicest ones, people who want to be rude or mean can deal with getting locked out.

    Reading that rank is apparently dependent upon the benevolence of other people and how well they like you.

    @xeynx, I agree the crystals also are part of the problem.

  • leef
    10504 posts Member
    Graives wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    "easiest" haha
    Also, the more crouded your pay-out is, the more it pays of to work together with a select few.

    "Select" few. Select. Who gets to decide the "select"? And is it a fair, even-handed, open-to-all process? Yes, or no?

    Are specific players targeted by some shard chats for the express purposes of denying that player a progression in rank? Yes or no?

    i'm just pointing out an obvious flaw in your suggested sollution. From what i can gather from you comment you don't seem to want players to work together, to prevent that you came up with a fantastic idea that just makes everything worse without preventing cooperation.
    may i ask why you don't like shard chats?
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • Graives
    49 posts Member
    leef wrote: »
    i'm just pointing out an obvious flaw in your suggested sollution. From what i can gather from you comment you don't seem to want players to work together, to prevent that you came up with a fantastic idea that just makes everything worse without preventing cooperation.
    may i ask why you don't like shard chats?

    Exactly. I would prefer players not working together in the Arena mode. Plenty of other major modes of the game (TW, TB's, raids, etc) provide an outlet for player cooperation.

    And none of my suggestions really make the game worse for me. Regardless, I'm not out to make it any easier or harder for myself. Coming up with a way to level the field would only really make it worse for people who collude for top rank spots. Those people might have to play Arena the same as the other 99% of players -- i.e. grind as high as you can go and hope for the best come payout.

    But I do get it. If you're raking in the crystals far beyond most of your peers due to an artificial ranking wall, I can understand the reluctance, if not outright hostility, toward any suggestion the gravy train should end.

  • leef
    10504 posts Member
    edited May 15
    Graives wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    i'm just pointing out an obvious flaw in your suggested sollution. From what i can gather from you comment you don't seem to want players to work together, to prevent that you came up with a fantastic idea that just makes everything worse without preventing cooperation.
    may i ask why you don't like shard chats?

    Exactly. I would prefer players not working together in the Arena mode. Plenty of other major modes of the game (TW, TB's, raids, etc) provide an outlet for player cooperation.

    And none of my suggestions really make the game worse for me. Regardless, I'm not out to make it any easier or harder for myself. Coming up with a way to level the field would only really make it worse for people who collude for top rank spots. Those people might have to play Arena the same as the other 99% of players -- i.e. grind as high as you can go and hope for the best come payout.

    But I do get it. If you're raking in the crystals far beyond most of your peers due to an artificial ranking wall, I can understand the reluctance, if not outright hostility, toward any suggestion the gravy train should end.

    I can assure you that 99% of the players have an easier time in arean than players on shardchats that compete for top ranks.
    Being on a shardchat doesn't magically result in a top rank each day. That's just misconception. You still need to grind to get as high as you can. If you can't reach the top ranks, there's litterally no benefit in being on a shard chat.
    The big difference between top ranks and low ranks is that the difference in pay-out is quite large, while the difference in rank is quite small. If you get drop from #110 to #180 in the last hour / 30 min before pay-out, it's not a big deal, if you get drop from #1 to #11 however you're getting 300 crystals less. Not because of the grind, but because people are attacking you last minute. That's why people are on shardchats.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • Graives
    49 posts Member
    leef wrote: »
    I can assure you that 99% of the players have an easier time in arean than players on shardchats that compete for top ranks.
    Being on a shardchat doesn't magically result in a top rank each day. That's just misconception. You still need to grind to get as high as you can. If you can't reach the top ranks, there's litterally no benefit in being on a shard chat.
    The big difference between top ranks and low ranks is that the difference in pay-out is quite large, while the difference in rank is quite small. If you get drop from #110 to #180 it's not a big deal, if you get drop from #1 to #11 you're getting 300 crystals less. Not because of the grind, but because people are attacking you last minute. That's why people are on shardchats.

    Obviously, but I didn't say it easier or harder, just that those people would have to play the same as the other 99%.

    But it seems like you are saying that coming up with a way to remove the potential benefit of shard-chatting would actually make it easier for shard-chatters to play the game? They could just ... play their nodes like the rest of us and hope for the best?

    But I guess it's how you define "easier." Is "easier" having a guaranteed crystal advantage to upgrade gear faster and SIM nodes more quickly than the other guy? Is it easier to hold the ... say... #4 spot if you have a team of 10 people dedicated to knocking down any outsiders who might challenge you? I mean... it's all relative and subjective. If I make it to rank 100, or 50, or 20, or whatever, nobody is there to keep someone from sniping that spot other than me. Trust me, people still attack you last minute at 100 and 50 and any other milestone.

    I did agree with xeynx above that the crystals were part of the problem -- I should clarify that I mean the payout disparity between the ranks.


  • leef
    10504 posts Member
    Graives wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    I can assure you that 99% of the players have an easier time in arean than players on shardchats that compete for top ranks.
    Being on a shardchat doesn't magically result in a top rank each day. That's just misconception. You still need to grind to get as high as you can. If you can't reach the top ranks, there's litterally no benefit in being on a shard chat.
    The big difference between top ranks and low ranks is that the difference in pay-out is quite large, while the difference in rank is quite small. If you get drop from #110 to #180 it's not a big deal, if you get drop from #1 to #11 you're getting 300 crystals less. Not because of the grind, but because people are attacking you last minute. That's why people are on shardchats.

    Obviously, but I didn't say it easier or harder, just that those people would have to play the same as the other 99%.
    It's not the same, it's never going to be the same. Even on a shard without cooperation (if it exists), playing for top ranks is entirely different than not playing for top ranks. So what you want is impossible.

    But it seems like you are saying that coming up with a way to remove the potential benefit of shard-chatting would actually make it easier for shard-chatters to play the game? They could just ... play their nodes like the rest of us and hope for the best?
    That's not what i'm saying at all. I'm saying that even with cooperation it takes way more effort and/or a better team to get top5 consistandly than it takes to get top100 consistandly.
    But I guess it's how you define "easier." Is "easier" having a guaranteed crystal advantage to upgrade gear faster and SIM nodes more quickly than the other guy?
    There is no guaranteed crystals advantage, if for some reason you can't reach top ranks, the shard chat isn't going to guarantee sith. No matter what you think of shardchats, those crystals are still earned and not just handed out because you're on a shardchat.
    Is it easier to hold the ... say... #4 spot if you have a team of 10 people dedicated to knocking down any outsiders who might challenge you? I mean... it's all relative and subjective. If I make it to rank 100, or 50, or 20, or whatever, nobody is there to keep someone from sniping that spot other than me. Trust me, people still attack you last minute at 100 and 50 and any other milestone.
    It's definately easier to maintain #4 if a team of 10 people are dedicated to knocking down any outsiders who might challenge you. I do not think there are many shardchats out there that have a group of 10 players (or players at all) dedicated to protect pay-outs throughout the day though. Personally i'm not a fan of that kind of behaviour either. I'm however a big fan of not messing with eachothers pay-out. Taking #2 instead of spiping #1 from #5 for example, working together that way is just beneficial for both and hurts no one.
    Obviously you can still get sniped for the top50 and top100, but lets not pretent that it's remotely the same as in the top10.
    I did agree with xeynx above that the crystals were part of the problem -- I should clarify that I mean the payout disparity between the ranks.
    Ha ! common ground ! Without the disparity there woud be less sniping, so less need for shardchats. I just dislike sniping. Shardchats make that aspect more "managable". I'm all for competition, but when you reach a certain point the only way to improve/maintain your rank is by being online at the right time and do the whole locking/sniping dance. Not something that i consider to be fun, neither do i consider it to be a suitable way to determine rank. It's just lame, but that's a personal opinion.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • five2zero
    441 posts Member
    Even easier way to fix - Remove crystal reward.

    Move Crystal to PvE should work.
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