EP mass shock "potency" problem in RNG

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Whatelse73
2137 posts Member
Could you PLEASE look at your AI's use of "potency" in arena? Every time I go up against an EP lead, that EP stuns 4 or 5 of my team and when my mass shock is done, I mostly stun 1 or 2. My potency can be twice that of the AI's EP and still get outdone by mass shock almost every time. If I get 4 or 5 I'm shocked myself (no pun intended) because it happens so rarely. I can understand if the other EP has 90-100% potency. Got it. But when I'm facing teams where the enemy EP (whether Gear 10, 11, 12) has 30 or 40% potency and stuns 5 out of 5, that is broken RNG. It shouldn't happen nearly as much as it does.

I even look at potency rates and tenacity rates. Hell I saw a CLS once with base potency stun 3 or 4 times against my team with 40ish% tenacity each. (I know, tenacity is BROKEN and they haven't fixed it yet.)

Just very irritating to take a team that SHOULD be landing shocks, stuns, ability blocks, etc., and doesn't against a team that SHOULDN'T be landing shocks, stuns, ability blocks, etc., but does at a higher rate. The AI is favoring itself in RNG and it is tiresome. (Yes, that includes the fleet AI that does more than abuse RNG for itself.)

If there's some other specific info that deals with that, I'd be happy to hear about it.

Replies

  • Poxx
    2288 posts Member
    Palpatine in a lead slot has 85% potency b4 any mods so unless u have toons w/ over 85% tenacity...again, b4 mods, u have a 15% chance to resist.
  • VonZant
    3843 posts Member
    Sometimes I get zero stuns. Sometimes I get 5. RNG.
  • Whatelse73
    2137 posts Member
    Poxx wrote: »
    Palpatine in a lead slot has 85% potency b4 any mods so unless u have toons w/ over 85% tenacity...again, b4 mods, u have a 15% chance to resist.

    Right, but again, if I have MORE potency from mods and base before that 85% hits, then I should be stunning 4-5 more often than I am. Especially since the AI's EP stuns 4-5 as often as I stun 1-2. It just tells me that the AI favors itself in RNG, way too much and that shouldn't be the case.

    I want to face another team and beat that TEAM. Not beat a suped up cheating AI.
  • Poxx
    2288 posts Member
    They have never admitted it, but we all know the AI is bolstered to make up for lack of a human player, instead of making the AI smarter. AI will crit above its average, resist above its average, evade above its average etc. Nature of the beast. WAI
  • crzydroid
    7233 posts Moderator
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    Poxx wrote: »
    Palpatine in a lead slot has 85% potency b4 any mods so unless u have toons w/ over 85% tenacity...again, b4 mods, u have a 15% chance to resist.

    Right, but again, if I have MORE potency from mods and base before that 85% hits, then I should be stunning 4-5 more often than I am. Especially since the AI's EP stuns 4-5 as often as I stun 1-2. It just tells me that the AI favors itself in RNG, way too much and that shouldn't be the case.

    I want to face another team and beat that TEAM. Not beat a suped up cheating AI.

    At a certain point, it doesn't matter who has more potency. Once you hit the base 15% chance to resist, that's that. EP has a 70% chance to stun, so 0.70*.085 = 59.5% chance to stun any given toon. Your brain pays more attention to when rng is against you.

    In your example of CLS, he gets 40% potency from his unique, so that would completely override 40% tenacity just there.
  • Vendi1983
    5017 posts Member
    edited May 2018
    The way I thought it worked was: (made up example)

    Step 1: EP has 100% potency. Game randomly assigns a number between 1-100. Congrats. Stun will hit, but...

    Step 2: Target has 35% tenacity. Game randomly assigns 1-100. If it's between 1-35, stun is resisted.

    Hence why it's not just a direct 40% tenacity cancels 40% potency problem.

    I don't know maybe I'm overly simplifying it or completely wrong but it would explain the "bad" RNG people talk about.
  • Goodgil
    349 posts Member
    Here's how it actually works. Ignore anything else people tell you, it's just wrong.

    EP has a 70% chance to inflict stun when using his aoe. That means that 30% of the time, you won't even go to the potency/tenacity check, but it just won't happen.

    If it does apply, you go to the check. The way it's calculated is [{defending unit tenacity}-{attacking unit potency}] chance to resist, minimum 15%. That is, if tenacity-potency > 15%, than that's the chance to resist. If tenacity-potency</= 15%, than chance to resist is 15%.
  • Zevox
    172 posts Member
    edited May 2018
    Goodgil wrote: »
    Here's how it actually works. Ignore anything else people tell you, it's just wrong.

    EP has a 70% chance to inflict stun when using his aoe. That means that 30% of the time, you won't even go to the potency/tenacity check, but it just won't happen.

    If it does apply, you go to the check. The way it's calculated is [{defending unit tenacity}-{attacking unit potency}] chance to resist, minimum 15%. That is, if tenacity-potency > 15%, than that's the chance to resist. If tenacity-potency</= 15%, than chance to resist is 15%.
    Almost completely correct - and that middle part is the important thing. Palpatine's AoE isn't even guaranteed to try to stun the targets. On a particularly bad roll of RNG, he may never even do a potency/tenacity check against any of them, because they all hit that 30% chance for him to just not attempt to apply the stun. That's why there such a huge variance to how effective Palpatine's AoE is.

    And the one error in the calculation is that it's 100+P-T = chance debuff is applied in %, minimum 15, where P = attacker's potency and T = defender's tenacity. Yes, the odds of a debuff being applied start at 100% (or 85%, technically, due to the minimum). See this video (link) where one of the Game Changers explained it last year after getting that information from the devs themselves. That's why tenacity is largely a useless stat - you need it to be huge to actually have an effect past the built-in advantage potency has in the equation.
  • Potency means nothing RNG is everything
  • Vendi1983
    5017 posts Member
    Goodgil wrote: »
    Here's how it actually works. Ignore anything else people tell you, it's just wrong.

    EP has a 70% chance to inflict stun when using his aoe. That means that 30% of the time, you won't even go to the potency/tenacity check, but it just won't happen.

    If it does apply, you go to the check. The way it's calculated is [{defending unit tenacity}-{attacking unit potency}] chance to resist, minimum 15%. That is, if tenacity-potency > 15%, than that's the chance to resist. If tenacity-potency</= 15%, than chance to resist is 15%.

    So, for example:

    My Palpatine, as leader, is 120% potency. If he faces CLS with a 40% tenacity, there's a negative 80% chance to resist so they just default to a positive 15% resist chance? That's bull. Why bother with increasing potency?
  • TVF
    36489 posts Member
    Potency means nothing RNG is everything

    Completely incorrect.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Huatimus
    3669 posts Member
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    Goodgil wrote: »
    Here's how it actually works. Ignore anything else people tell you, it's just wrong.

    EP has a 70% chance to inflict stun when using his aoe. That means that 30% of the time, you won't even go to the potency/tenacity check, but it just won't happen.

    If it does apply, you go to the check. The way it's calculated is [{defending unit tenacity}-{attacking unit potency}] chance to resist, minimum 15%. That is, if tenacity-potency > 15%, than that's the chance to resist. If tenacity-potency</= 15%, than chance to resist is 15%.

    So, for example:

    My Palpatine, as leader, is 120% potency. If he faces CLS with a 40% tenacity, there's a negative 80% chance to resist so they just default to a positive 15% resist chance? That's bull. Why bother with increasing potency?

    That's because some people zeta CLS who will receive 100% extra Tenacity. But yes, by default most EP have more than enough Potency already and don't need to mod for it. I don't even understand why people bother. It's as though they believe that Potency will help increase that 70%.
  • Degs29
    360 posts Member
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    The way I thought it worked was: (made up example)

    Step 1: EP has 100% potency. Game randomly assigns a number between 1-100. Congrats. Stun will hit, but...

    Step 2: Target has 35% tenacity. Game randomly assigns 1-100. If it's between 1-35, stun is resisted.

    Hence why it's not just a direct 40% tenacity cancels 40% potency problem.

    I don't know maybe I'm overly simplifying it or completely wrong but it would explain the "bad" RNG people talk about.

    That's actually not how tenacity works. You'd think it's how it works, but it's not.

    Basically, if you have more potency than their tenacity, their tenacity doesn't come into play at all. Even if they have 15% more tenacity than your potency, it doesn't come into play because you already always have a 15% chance to resist.

    The chance to resist is Potency minus Tenacity (with a 15% minimum).
  • Degs29
    360 posts Member
    crzydroid wrote: »
    At a certain point, it doesn't matter who has more potency. Once you hit the base 15% chance to resist, that's that. EP has a 70% chance to stun, so 0.70*.085 = 59.5% chance to stun any given toon.

    This is your answer OP. The chance of you actually stunning all five toons even with crazy high potency is about 8%. Not much more than that for four.

    As another mentioned by another poster, the AI may get buffed by the devs to counteract the fact that they lack human intuition, but that has never been confirmed. But if so, that may explain why the enemy palp shocks so many of your toons.
  • Whatelse73
    2137 posts Member
    Degs29 wrote: »
    crzydroid wrote: »
    At a certain point, it doesn't matter who has more potency. Once you hit the base 15% chance to resist, that's that. EP has a 70% chance to stun, so 0.70*.085 = 59.5% chance to stun any given toon.

    This is your answer OP. The chance of you actually stunning all five toons even with crazy high potency is about 8%. Not much more than that for four.

    As another mentioned by another poster, the AI may get buffed by the devs to counteract the fact that they lack human intuition, but that has never been confirmed. But if so, that may explain why the enemy palp shocks so many of your toons.

    Yep, because the AI is programmed to cheat. lol
  • Whatelse73
    2137 posts Member
    Degs29 wrote: »
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    The way I thought it worked was: (made up example)

    Step 1: EP has 100% potency. Game randomly assigns a number between 1-100. Congrats. Stun will hit, but...

    Step 2: Target has 35% tenacity. Game randomly assigns 1-100. If it's between 1-35, stun is resisted.

    Hence why it's not just a direct 40% tenacity cancels 40% potency problem.

    I don't know maybe I'm overly simplifying it or completely wrong but it would explain the "bad" RNG people talk about.

    That's actually not how tenacity works. You'd think it's how it works, but it's not.

    Basically, if you have more potency than their tenacity, their tenacity doesn't come into play at all. Even if they have 15% more tenacity than your potency, it doesn't come into play because you already always have a 15% chance to resist.

    The chance to resist is Potency minus Tenacity (with a 15% minimum).

    Thanks for the math, still just goes to show we aren't just facing the team, we're facing an AI with the ability to boost itself, cheat, do what it wants, etc. That's what irritates me about it. I might get all 5 stunned once in a day. The AI fights me and stuns all 5 in one match, then 4, then maybe 2, then 4/5 again, etc.

    It could be worse I guess? It isn't as bad as the AI in fleet arena? :P
  • Maztoras
    153 posts Member
    Ill say i believe AI does get boosted stats. Enemy AI..like palp on average always stuns more. 4 is about average. My ep....1-2. I face ep mirror all day...since thats only team anyone runs and that has been my observation.
  • The team works best with a lot of potency. Mostly on the rest of the team. I have always had more “RNG” LUCK using mass stun on only debuffed enemies. If there is a buff don’t except any stuns to land. That’s also why Vader and Ep make a great combo.
  • So glad to finally ditch palp lead. I was tired of always losing the RNG match.
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    JijackCana wrote: »
    The team works best with a lot of potency. Mostly on the rest of the team. I have always had more “RNG” LUCK using mass stun on only debuffed enemies. If there is a buff don’t except any stuns to land. That’s also why Vader and Ep make a great combo.

    the team actually rarely benefits from adding potency through mods.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • This is really a sobering fact that cannot be explained with maths/statistics. I average about two shocks with my 76% (basic potency) EP (opponent has no significant heightened tenacity), and the A.I. enemy (around 40% potency) regularly scores an average of four on me. I really have no problem losing in a good fight, but this feels so much like cheating that it takes the fun out of it.
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    Kanega101 wrote: »
    This is really a sobering fact that cannot be explained with maths/statistics. I average about two shocks with my 76% (basic potency) EP (opponent has no significant heightened tenacity), and the A.I. enemy (around 40% potency) regularly scores an average of four on me. I really have no problem losing in a good fight, but this feels so much like cheating that it takes the fun out of it.

    how can the AI regularly score an average though? It's either average of 4 stuns, or regularly 4 stuns. The former being rather strange, the latter easily explained.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • Whatelse73
    2137 posts Member
    crzydroid wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    Poxx wrote: »
    Palpatine in a lead slot has 85% potency b4 any mods so unless u have toons w/ over 85% tenacity...again, b4 mods, u have a 15% chance to resist.

    Right, but again, if I have MORE potency from mods and base before that 85% hits, then I should be stunning 4-5 more often than I am. Especially since the AI's EP stuns 4-5 as often as I stun 1-2. It just tells me that the AI favors itself in RNG, way too much and that shouldn't be the case.

    I want to face another team and beat that TEAM. Not beat a suped up cheating AI.

    At a certain point, it doesn't matter who has more potency. Once you hit the base 15% chance to resist, that's that. EP has a 70% chance to stun, so 0.70*.085 = 59.5% chance to stun any given toon. Your brain pays more attention to when rng is against you.

    In your example of CLS, he gets 40% potency from his unique, so that would completely override 40% tenacity just there.

    And, I understand that. All things being equal, our teams "should" be equal and my EP should mass shock 4 or 5 of the other team as often as the AI does it to me. However, that is not the case. My EP is shocking 1-2 most often, while your AI is shocking 4-5 most often. Since "it doesn't matter who has more potency", it means your AI is getting boosted, giving itself better odds, cheating, programmed to cheat, etc etc. :)
  • DarthArt
    28 posts Member
    Same for me, my ep stun with higher potency 1-2 toon 80% of time, while enemy ep stun 4-5 of my toons 90% of the time... almost everytime my whole squad got stunned from ep without potency mod set,no potency on cross, and ep even not a leader in that squad :O I guess its just a bad rng which pursues me more than a month :neutral:
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    crzydroid wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    Poxx wrote: »
    Palpatine in a lead slot has 85% potency b4 any mods so unless u have toons w/ over 85% tenacity...again, b4 mods, u have a 15% chance to resist.

    Right, but again, if I have MORE potency from mods and base before that 85% hits, then I should be stunning 4-5 more often than I am. Especially since the AI's EP stuns 4-5 as often as I stun 1-2. It just tells me that the AI favors itself in RNG, way too much and that shouldn't be the case.

    I want to face another team and beat that TEAM. Not beat a suped up cheating AI.

    At a certain point, it doesn't matter who has more potency. Once you hit the base 15% chance to resist, that's that. EP has a 70% chance to stun, so 0.70*.085 = 59.5% chance to stun any given toon. Your brain pays more attention to when rng is against you.

    In your example of CLS, he gets 40% potency from his unique, so that would completely override 40% tenacity just there.

    And, I understand that. All things being equal, our teams "should" be equal and my EP should mass shock 4 or 5 of the other team as often as the AI does it to me. However, that is not the case. My EP is shocking 1-2 most often, while your AI is shocking 4-5 most often. Since "it doesn't matter who has more potency", it means your AI is getting boosted, giving itself better odds, cheating, programmed to cheat, etc etc. :)

    when it comes to an EP lead team and stuns, things are pretty much always equal given the base potency+lead bonus and the tenacity of all toons used in arena. So you're right about that.
    I'm however willing to doubt that the AI is actually being boosted.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • crzydroid
    7233 posts Moderator
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    crzydroid wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    Poxx wrote: »
    Palpatine in a lead slot has 85% potency b4 any mods so unless u have toons w/ over 85% tenacity...again, b4 mods, u have a 15% chance to resist.

    Right, but again, if I have MORE potency from mods and base before that 85% hits, then I should be stunning 4-5 more often than I am. Especially since the AI's EP stuns 4-5 as often as I stun 1-2. It just tells me that the AI favors itself in RNG, way too much and that shouldn't be the case.

    I want to face another team and beat that TEAM. Not beat a suped up cheating AI.

    At a certain point, it doesn't matter who has more potency. Once you hit the base 15% chance to resist, that's that. EP has a 70% chance to stun, so 0.70*.085 = 59.5% chance to stun any given toon. Your brain pays more attention to when rng is against you.

    In your example of CLS, he gets 40% potency from his unique, so that would completely override 40% tenacity just there.

    And, I understand that. All things being equal, our teams "should" be equal and my EP should mass shock 4 or 5 of the other team as often as the AI does it to me. However, that is not the case. My EP is shocking 1-2 most often, while your AI is shocking 4-5 most often. Since "it doesn't matter who has more potency", it means your AI is getting boosted, giving itself better odds, cheating, programmed to cheat, etc etc. :)

    And your arguments would be one thing if we could see the numbers. So far we have your word, but knowing what we know about the human mind, while you may fully believe the computer out stuns you at an unnatural rate, it is not necessarily so. If you were to sit down for a week or two and for every arena battle you played, recorded the number of stuns per attempt for both you and your opponent (also recording potencies, tenacities, and whether certain characters dodged rather than resisted), then people could run the numbers and investigate the veracity of the claims that the computer cheats.
  • Phoenixeon
    1840 posts Member
    Because AI has % bolstered.
    Like enemy Leia almost always shoots 3 times and yours shoots 2 most of the time.

    Or back to the old days when you face so many 5s in GW. His 80% chance to counter is like 96% or so.
  • Random9
    510 posts Member
    https://youtu.be/4Cru7AT5Dqc
    That might help
    Not sure what all this about AI having bolstered stats is but it’s all speculation none is confirmed or has any real solid basis
  • Whatelse73
    2137 posts Member
    Random9 wrote: »
    https://youtu.be/4Cru7AT5Dqc
    That might help
    Not sure what all this about AI having bolstered stats is but it’s all speculation none is confirmed or has any real solid basis

    Watched the video already. As was mentioned, we all have so much potency already with an EP lead team that it becomes irrelevant who has more. Yet, an AI with an EP will outstun "my" team most all the time.
  • Whatelse73
    2137 posts Member
    crzydroid wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    crzydroid wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    Poxx wrote: »
    Palpatine in a lead slot has 85% potency b4 any mods so unless u have toons w/ over 85% tenacity...again, b4 mods, u have a 15% chance to resist.

    Right, but again, if I have MORE potency from mods and base before that 85% hits, then I should be stunning 4-5 more often than I am. Especially since the AI's EP stuns 4-5 as often as I stun 1-2. It just tells me that the AI favors itself in RNG, way too much and that shouldn't be the case.

    I want to face another team and beat that TEAM. Not beat a suped up cheating AI.

    At a certain point, it doesn't matter who has more potency. Once you hit the base 15% chance to resist, that's that. EP has a 70% chance to stun, so 0.70*.085 = 59.5% chance to stun any given toon. Your brain pays more attention to when rng is against you.

    In your example of CLS, he gets 40% potency from his unique, so that would completely override 40% tenacity just there.

    And, I understand that. All things being equal, our teams "should" be equal and my EP should mass shock 4 or 5 of the other team as often as the AI does it to me. However, that is not the case. My EP is shocking 1-2 most often, while your AI is shocking 4-5 most often. Since "it doesn't matter who has more potency", it means your AI is getting boosted, giving itself better odds, cheating, programmed to cheat, etc etc. :)

    And your arguments would be one thing if we could see the numbers. So far we have your word, but knowing what we know about the human mind, while you may fully believe the computer out stuns you at an unnatural rate, it is not necessarily so. If you were to sit down for a week or two and for every arena battle you played, recorded the number of stuns per attempt for both you and your opponent (also recording potencies, tenacities, and whether certain characters dodged rather than resisted), then people could run the numbers and investigate the veracity of the claims that the computer cheats.

    Hey good idea! CG, show us the numbers. Same for ships and AI fleet wins vs players. We know they have the data and they can track the data and can pull the data. So, show us the numbers for AI EP stuns vs player EP stuns. :)

    I'll test it for them, if they pay me to just play mirror matches for two weeks. But I'd much rather have chances to win and climb in arena if they won't. ;-)
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