Best way of telling how the franchise is doing is to look at merchandise sales. Jump on google... look it up... no discussion needed. Pretty obvious that the new movies failed to capture thier audience in this capacity at all.
i'm not that skilled in googling, can you provide a list of merchendise sales per year from 2000 to 2017 ?
A lot of the articles claim failure of the toy line is down to "Movie fatigue" which is utter nonsense and the marvel movies and its merchandise is proof of that, lol
Lol you guys know she's making them tons of money right?
And from a corporate standpoint, that's all that matters.
Correct, so therefore she is very unlikely to be fired.
From a fan standpoint, at least the older, wiser group, she is destroying the franchise.
Lol this is a ridiculous statement. How old are you? I'm mid-40s and I love the new movies.
Look at how much h8 TLJ is getting.
Welcome to the internet.
Really? Some of the most die hard fans I know can't stand TFA or TLJ, and think TLJ is worse than TFA. These people were either going to see the OT when it was released or grew up only having 3 Star Wars films.
I’m in my 40’s, I’m a die hard SW fan, there were only 3 SW films that really mattered until about 3 years ago bc the prequels are nearly unwatchable to me, and I’m one of those Han Shot First types who hates the reworks of the OT with the crappy new music and creatures.
I effing *loved* TFA, TLJ, and Solo, and liked Rogue One for many reasons. As a writer with some experience with screenplays, there are some choices made that I thought could have been done better in each, but I pick things apart like that like I detect misplaced modifiers in text. I just notice weird stuff like that.
I’m stoked TLJ is going to be on Netflix later this month, and I can’t wait to go see Solo again. I’m loving it all. I refuse to walk into the theater being anything less than open-minded like I was with Star Wars when I was a kid. I’ve not been disappointed yet.
The organized harassment of SW actors/producers and continual whining about subjects and themes that that people act like are new but really existed in the series since the release of episode iv sure is making me like Star Wars *fans* a lot less, though. The gross behavior has got to stop.
“All of this points to bad merchandising - who wants to buy L3 action figures etc???? or poor characters like Rey and Poe and porgs (don't get me started there) - No one!!!”
My six-year-old son. You know, one of the future of the fan base? He insisted on all of those, and adamantly.
The Star Wars toy aisles where I live are routinely ransacked, and out of the stuff we want. My kid was MAD we couldn’t find a Rey figure for so long (toy companies initially did not make any Rey toys and were astonished by the demand for them, and had to play catch-up). He has his porg Pez dispenser on DISPLAY with his BB8 one.
We need to get past thinking these movies are still being made for our age group, because they aren’t.
Lol you guys know she's making them tons of money right?
And from a corporate standpoint, that's all that matters.
Correct, so therefore she is very unlikely to be fired.
From a fan standpoint, at least the older, wiser group, she is destroying the franchise.
Lol this is a ridiculous statement. How old are you? I'm mid-40s and I love the new movies.
Look at how much h8 TLJ is getting.
Welcome to the internet.
Really? Some of the most die hard fans I know can't stand TFA or TLJ, and think TLJ is worse than TFA. These people were either going to see the OT when it was released or grew up only having 3 Star Wars films.
C'mon, you should understand sample size by now.
Here's your sample size
ONLY Star Wars film to fall under 50%.
Did you hear that there are groups who actively refused to see the films but coordinated to give negative reviews specifically to tank the film’s ranking on a variety of sites? That’s the very definition of why you can’t always trust polls. There are thousands of data points from people actively participating in an agenda to “destroy” these films. It’s pretty lame, and if you’re buying into it, it might be working.
Best way of telling how the franchise is doing is to look at merchandise sales. Jump on google... look it up... no discussion needed. Pretty obvious that the new movies failed to capture thier audience in this capacity at all.
i'm not that skilled in googling, can you provide a list of merchendise sales per year from 2000 to 2017 ?
A lot of the articles claim failure of the toy line is down to "Movie fatigue" which is utter nonsense and the marvel movies and its merchandise is proof of that, lol
I’m sure the largest toy retailer in the US being in financial trouble and entering liquidation during the same months the toys from the last two films were released are related. Sales expectations for toys and games will be wonky for a while.
Lol you guys know she's making them tons of money right?
And from a corporate standpoint, that's all that matters.
Correct, so therefore she is very unlikely to be fired.
From a fan standpoint, at least the older, wiser group, she is destroying the franchise.
Lol this is a ridiculous statement. How old are you? I'm mid-40s and I love the new movies.
Look at how much h8 TLJ is getting.
Welcome to the internet.
Really? Some of the most die hard fans I know can't stand TFA or TLJ, and think TLJ is worse than TFA. These people were either going to see the OT when it was released or grew up only having 3 Star Wars films.
I’m in my 40’s, I’m a die hard SW fan, there were only 3 SW films that really mattered until about 3 years ago bc the prequels are nearly unwatchable to me, and I’m one of those Han Shot First types who hates the reworks of the OT with the **** new music and creatures.
I effing *loved* TFA, TLJ, and Solo, and liked Rogue One for many reasons. As a writer with some experience with screenplays, there are some choices made that I thought could have been done better in each, but I pick things apart like that like I detect misplaced modifiers in text. I just notice weird stuff like that.
I’m stoked TLJ is going to be on Netflix later this month, and I can’t wait to go see Solo again. I’m loving it all. I refuse to walk into the theater being anything less than open-minded like I was with Star Wars when I was a kid. I’ve not been disappointed yet.
The organized harassment of SW actors/producers and continual whining about subjects and themes that that people act like are new but really existed in the series since the release of episode iv sure is making me like Star Wars *fans* a lot less, though. The gross behavior has got to stop.
With seemingly few exceptions, the majority of older fans, typical 25-30+ is where I'm hearing the poor ratings come from. Just like how you don't like the prequel trilogy, not sure of the reasons, but I'm sure I can guess a few. I can't stand the sequels most likely for similar reasons, and not because I read negative reviews and have to follow the crowd, if anything following the crowd is the wrong reason to like or hate something. I walked into the theater to see TFA with such a high expectation because it was Star Wars, J.J. Abrams was directing and co-wrote and I seen a few of his films and was impressed. I figured they got some good direction, an entire EU to glean a story from. It's going to be epic.I didn't think it was.
Lol you guys know she's making them tons of money right?
And from a corporate standpoint, that's all that matters.
Correct, so therefore she is very unlikely to be fired.
From a fan standpoint, at least the older, wiser group, she is destroying the franchise.
Lol this is a ridiculous statement. How old are you? I'm mid-40s and I love the new movies.
Look at how much h8 TLJ is getting.
Welcome to the internet.
Really? Some of the most die hard fans I know can't stand TFA or TLJ, and think TLJ is worse than TFA. These people were either going to see the OT when it was released or grew up only having 3 Star Wars films.
I’m in my 40’s, I’m a die hard SW fan, there were only 3 SW films that really mattered until about 3 years ago bc the prequels are nearly unwatchable to me, and I’m one of those Han Shot First types who hates the reworks of the OT with the **** new music and creatures.
I effing *loved* TFA, TLJ, and Solo, and liked Rogue One for many reasons. As a writer with some experience with screenplays, there are some choices made that I thought could have been done better in each, but I pick things apart like that like I detect misplaced modifiers in text. I just notice weird stuff like that.
I’m stoked TLJ is going to be on Netflix later this month, and I can’t wait to go see Solo again. I’m loving it all. I refuse to walk into the theater being anything less than open-minded like I was with Star Wars when I was a kid. I’ve not been disappointed yet.
The organized harassment of SW actors/producers and continual whining about subjects and themes that that people act like are new but really existed in the series since the release of episode iv sure is making me like Star Wars *fans* a lot less, though. The gross behavior has got to stop.
With seemingly few exceptions, the majority of older fans, typical 25-30+ is where I'm hearing the poor ratings come from.
Lol you guys know she's making them tons of money right?
And from a corporate standpoint, that's all that matters.
Correct, so therefore she is very unlikely to be fired.
From a fan standpoint, at least the older, wiser group, she is destroying the franchise.
Lol this is a ridiculous statement. How old are you? I'm mid-40s and I love the new movies.
Look at how much h8 TLJ is getting.
Welcome to the internet.
Really? Some of the most die hard fans I know can't stand TFA or TLJ, and think TLJ is worse than TFA. These people were either going to see the OT when it was released or grew up only having 3 Star Wars films.
I’m in my 40’s, I’m a die hard SW fan, there were only 3 SW films that really mattered until about 3 years ago bc the prequels are nearly unwatchable to me, and I’m one of those Han Shot First types who hates the reworks of the OT with the **** new music and creatures.
I effing *loved* TFA, TLJ, and Solo, and liked Rogue One for many reasons. As a writer with some experience with screenplays, there are some choices made that I thought could have been done better in each, but I pick things apart like that like I detect misplaced modifiers in text. I just notice weird stuff like that.
I’m stoked TLJ is going to be on Netflix later this month, and I can’t wait to go see Solo again. I’m loving it all. I refuse to walk into the theater being anything less than open-minded like I was with Star Wars when I was a kid. I’ve not been disappointed yet.
The organized harassment of SW actors/producers and continual whining about subjects and themes that that people act like are new but really existed in the series since the release of episode iv sure is making me like Star Wars *fans* a lot less, though. The gross behavior has got to stop.
With seemingly few exceptions, the majority of older fans, typical 25-30+ is where I'm hearing the poor ratings come from.
Citation needed
So you want me to site personal conversations I've had with numerous individuals of various ages?
What are your impressions on the movies themselves? Fan or not?
So you want me to site personal conversations I've had with numerous individuals of various ages?
What are your impressions on the movies themselves? Fan or not?
Sorry for some reason I thought you were saying a majority of fans in that age group disliked it. As opposed to what you were saying being anecdotal. I've just seen so much "this movie is objectively bad" talk and conflated the two. I personally like to love all the new films with TLJ being my favorite and am in my early 30s.
The organized harassment of SW actors/producers and continual whining about subjects and themes that that people act like are new but really existed in the series since the release of episode iv sure is making me like Star Wars *fans* a lot less, though. The gross behavior has got to stop.
The organized harassment of SW actors/producers and continual whining about subjects and themes that that people act like are new but really existed in the series since the release of episode iv sure is making me like Star Wars *fans* a lot less, though. The gross behavior has got to stop.
This. Oh so much this
I agree that most of the topics brought up for the movies downfalls are more off topic than they need to be, my personal disdain for them is from the actual movies themselves and my expectations of what a star wars movie is. For instance, the prequels are viewed in a negative light due to the CG work, Hayden's acting and Jar Jar...
I get that, I enjoyed the prequels, not exactly as much as the OT, and don't think most of the criticism is justified and the same is true for the sequel trilogy as well. Rey isn't exactly a Mary Sue, growing up in a desert by yourself would make you a strong individual, but her character seemed to me to be the Luke of the sequels. Same basic character pattern, re-skinned because at this point the name Star Wars alone gets people into the seats.
I think my task now should be watching the 2 movies and writing a list of Pros and Cons.
Lol you guys know she's making them tons of money right?
And from a corporate standpoint, that's all that matters.
Correct, so therefore she is very unlikely to be fired.
From a fan standpoint, at least the older, wiser group, she is destroying the franchise.
Lol this is a ridiculous statement. How old are you? I'm mid-40s and I love the new movies.
Look at how much h8 TLJ is getting.
Welcome to the internet.
Really? Some of the most die hard fans I know can't stand TFA or TLJ, and think TLJ is worse than TFA. These people were either going to see the OT when it was released or grew up only having 3 Star Wars films.
I’m in my 40’s, I’m a die hard SW fan, there were only 3 SW films that really mattered until about 3 years ago bc the prequels are nearly unwatchable to me, and I’m one of those Han Shot First types who hates the reworks of the OT with the **** new music and creatures.
I effing *loved* TFA, TLJ, and Solo, and liked Rogue One for many reasons. As a writer with some experience with screenplays, there are some choices made that I thought could have been done better in each, but I pick things apart like that like I detect misplaced modifiers in text. I just notice weird stuff like that.
I’m stoked TLJ is going to be on Netflix later this month, and I can’t wait to go see Solo again. I’m loving it all. I refuse to walk into the theater being anything less than open-minded like I was with Star Wars when I was a kid. I’ve not been disappointed yet.
The organized harassment of SW actors/producers and continual whining about subjects and themes that that people act like are new but really existed in the series since the release of episode iv sure is making me like Star Wars *fans* a lot less, though. The gross behavior has got to stop.
With seemingly few exceptions, the majority of older fans, typical 25-30+ is where I'm hearing the poor ratings come from. Just like how you don't like the prequel trilogy, not sure of the reasons, but I'm sure I can guess a few. I can't stand the sequels most likely for similar reasons, and not because I read negative reviews and have to follow the crowd, if anything following the crowd is the wrong reason to like or hate something. I walked into the theater to see TFA with such a high expectation because it was Star Wars, J.J. Abrams was directing and co-wrote and I seen a few of his films and was impressed. I figured they got some good direction, an entire EU to glean a story from. It's going to be epic.I didn't think it was.
Man, that’s wild! The fans I know, other than young children, are exclusively in that age bracket and they have NO IDEA what is upsetting people so much. Like they’re listening, but don’t quite get the hate. My circles of fans of people 28-50 universally love the films. We all seem to agree that some storytelling bits should have been a little clearer (Rey’s power makes much more sense in TFA book), and yet we all still love the films.
I think the crew that hates this SW is just particularly loud and vocal, so maybe that’s why the complaints seem so universal.
Lol you guys know she's making them tons of money right?
And from a corporate standpoint, that's all that matters.
Correct, so therefore she is very unlikely to be fired.
From a fan standpoint, at least the older, wiser group, she is destroying the franchise.
Lol this is a ridiculous statement. How old are you? I'm mid-40s and I love the new movies.
Look at how much h8 TLJ is getting.
Welcome to the internet.
Really? Some of the most die hard fans I know can't stand TFA or TLJ, and think TLJ is worse than TFA. These people were either going to see the OT when it was released or grew up only having 3 Star Wars films.
I’m in my 40’s, I’m a die hard SW fan, there were only 3 SW films that really mattered until about 3 years ago bc the prequels are nearly unwatchable to me, and I’m one of those Han Shot First types who hates the reworks of the OT with the **** new music and creatures.
I effing *loved* TFA, TLJ, and Solo, and liked Rogue One for many reasons. As a writer with some experience with screenplays, there are some choices made that I thought could have been done better in each, but I pick things apart like that like I detect misplaced modifiers in text. I just notice weird stuff like that.
I’m stoked TLJ is going to be on Netflix later this month, and I can’t wait to go see Solo again. I’m loving it all. I refuse to walk into the theater being anything less than open-minded like I was with Star Wars when I was a kid. I’ve not been disappointed yet.
The organized harassment of SW actors/producers and continual whining about subjects and themes that that people act like are new but really existed in the series since the release of episode iv sure is making me like Star Wars *fans* a lot less, though. The gross behavior has got to stop.
With seemingly few exceptions, the majority of older fans, typical 25-30+ is where I'm hearing the poor ratings come from. Just like how you don't like the prequel trilogy, not sure of the reasons, but I'm sure I can guess a few. I can't stand the sequels most likely for similar reasons, and not because I read negative reviews and have to follow the crowd, if anything following the crowd is the wrong reason to like or hate something. I walked into the theater to see TFA with such a high expectation because it was Star Wars, J.J. Abrams was directing and co-wrote and I seen a few of his films and was impressed. I figured they got some good direction, an entire EU to glean a story from. It's going to be epic.I didn't think it was.
Man, that’s wild! The fans I know, other than young children, are exclusively in that age bracket and they have NO IDEA what is upsetting people so much. Like they’re listening, but don’t quite get the hate. My circles of fans of people 28-50 universally love the films. We all seem to agree that some storytelling bits should have been a little clearer (Rey’s power makes much more sense in TFA book), and yet we all still love the films.
I think the crew that hates this SW is just particularly loud and vocal, so maybe that’s why the complaints seem so universal.
Very interesting. Personally I have a lot of issues with the films, mostly TFA, and by continuation TLJ. All of my grievances stem more from the writing and plot, or lack thereof, IMHO. But I'm thinking a second viewing at home is warranted, see what changed they made from big to lil screen and try to clear my mind of bias.
Lol you guys know she's making them tons of money right?
And from a corporate standpoint, that's all that matters.
Correct, so therefore she is very unlikely to be fired.
From a fan standpoint, at least the older, wiser group, she is destroying the franchise.
Lol this is a ridiculous statement. How old are you? I'm mid-40s and I love the new movies.
Look at how much h8 TLJ is getting.
Welcome to the internet.
Really? Some of the most die hard fans I know can't stand TFA or TLJ, and think TLJ is worse than TFA. These people were either going to see the OT when it was released or grew up only having 3 Star Wars films.
I’m in my 40’s, I’m a die hard SW fan, there were only 3 SW films that really mattered until about 3 years ago bc the prequels are nearly unwatchable to me, and I’m one of those Han Shot First types who hates the reworks of the OT with the **** new music and creatures.
I effing *loved* TFA, TLJ, and Solo, and liked Rogue One for many reasons. As a writer with some experience with screenplays, there are some choices made that I thought could have been done better in each, but I pick things apart like that like I detect misplaced modifiers in text. I just notice weird stuff like that.
I’m stoked TLJ is going to be on Netflix later this month, and I can’t wait to go see Solo again. I’m loving it all. I refuse to walk into the theater being anything less than open-minded like I was with Star Wars when I was a kid. I’ve not been disappointed yet.
The organized harassment of SW actors/producers and continual whining about subjects and themes that that people act like are new but really existed in the series since the release of episode iv sure is making me like Star Wars *fans* a lot less, though. The gross behavior has got to stop.
With seemingly few exceptions, the majority of older fans, typical 25-30+ is where I'm hearing the poor ratings come from. Just like how you don't like the prequel trilogy, not sure of the reasons, but I'm sure I can guess a few. I can't stand the sequels most likely for similar reasons, and not because I read negative reviews and have to follow the crowd, if anything following the crowd is the wrong reason to like or hate something. I walked into the theater to see TFA with such a high expectation because it was Star Wars, J.J. Abrams was directing and co-wrote and I seen a few of his films and was impressed. I figured they got some good direction, an entire EU to glean a story from. It's going to be epic.I didn't think it was.
Man, that’s wild! The fans I know, other than young children, are exclusively in that age bracket and they have NO IDEA what is upsetting people so much. Like they’re listening, but don’t quite get the hate. My circles of fans of people 28-50 universally love the films. We all seem to agree that some storytelling bits should have been a little clearer (Rey’s power makes much more sense in TFA book), and yet we all still love the films.
I think the crew that hates this SW is just particularly loud and vocal, so maybe that’s why the complaints seem so universal.
Very interesting. Personally I have a lot of issues with the films, mostly TFA, and by continuation TLJ. All of my grievances stem more from the writing and plot, or lack thereof, IMHO. But I'm thinking a second viewing at home is warranted, see what changed they made from big to lil screen and try to clear my mind of bias.
The films definitely have issues. So did the OT and prequels.
Episode 4 definitely did not have Luke “always feeling his whole life like something was guiding him” or have a history of being some exceptional pilot. We have all backfilled that in. He was a whiny hothead brat like Kylo and Poe and Anakin. And so so many people forget how horrid the reviews and reaction to Empire was. It was only well after the release of Return that fans got it and Empire became the best-appreciated of the OT. At the time, the gripes were similar to what we hear now about TLJ.
TFA as a film does a poor job of showing Rey’s high level tech skills, sixth sense (force sense? not sure what to call it), excellent piloting skills, etc. It does a garbage job of showing Rey’s force history, and certainly doesn’t make clear what happened in the “mind meld” while Kylo was interrogating her, nor how that helped her kick his bum later. It certainly does not show that Rey, used to being alone and self-sufficient, had long listened to The Force without knowing what it was, and was used to following its lead, therefore making her a fast learner.
TLJ does a poor job of continuing showing that learning. Fans forget that Finn is occupying the same moral grey area that was Han’s area in the OT. There are no powers that happen in the film that are not listed in one of the many SW books, guides, or resources. The film does not get across how much trauma changes people, nor why Luke would be affected in that particular way. It suffered from the fans bringing a ton, but not all, of information with them, and the film didn’t bring enough to bridge the gap. There were a couple of unnecessary gag setups, imo, and I always loathe the “These ppl have known each other for like 4 hours but now they’re in luuuurve” rom-com stuff. There were a couple of continuity/universe integrity things that set me off, but that’s script errors for you. Do not get me started on how badly Phasma got repeatedly punked, although movies only have so long a run time before people won’t go to see them. That limits character development. She needs time in that upcoming Resistance series (crossing fingers).
All that said, they were still everything I love about SW. I will watch them again and again. My kid being scared at the theater, then spending a week doing somersaults and beeping while pretending to be BB8 says they’re doing it right. He pretends to be Yoda, Finn, Phasma, Rey, Chewie, whoever. They’ve sparked his imagination. I think many of us older fans underestimate just how much it did for us, too. It helped us have such active inner lives. What film could possibly live up to that?
We just assume Luke grew out of his peevish huffs, like (we hope) we did, and we find out he’s fallible and did not outgrow having tantrums. That makes us uncomfortable because what does that say about us? If Luke The Jedi Master ™️ cant leave his childishness behind, how can we?
It’s very difficult for humans to set their notions aside; we only see what we want to see. I believe that’s absolutely what’s in play here with some fan reactions. It is a lot of people in terms of quantity of fans, but not in terms of percent of fans. And let’s face it, this is still for kids and we are not kids. We don’t like to be told the world isn’t all about us.
I agree that these movies fail to bridge gaps, and I think TFA fails to maintain a manageable story line, and that is what killed the movie for me. It was a movie for the sake of a movie and didn't feel like it went anywhere. Maybe Star Wars is for kids, but a lot of other movies, coming from Disney have content aimed towards adults and they go somewhere. TFA was riding the coattails of the 6 other movies. Big mistake, IMHO.
I am glad that your child finds enjoyment, how I miss those days, when things were simpler.
Thinking all this over, including all the comments about diversity, etc. I'm finding myself having an easier time relating to Rey and the brief backstory, if it can be called one, than Luke. There are differences and similarities. I will admit I had high expectations, with a decent knowledge of the EU going into the theater and that probably helped with my poor reception.
Thank you for your answer, I found it more enlightening.
Lol you guys know she's making them tons of money right?
And from a corporate standpoint, that's all that matters.
Correct, so therefore she is very unlikely to be fired.
From a fan standpoint, at least the older, wiser group, she is destroying the franchise.
Lol this is a ridiculous statement. How old are you? I'm mid-40s and I love the new movies.
Look at how much h8 TLJ is getting.
Welcome to the internet.
Really? Some of the most die hard fans I know can't stand TFA or TLJ, and think TLJ is worse than TFA. These people were either going to see the OT when it was released or grew up only having 3 Star Wars films.
C'mon, you should understand sample size by now.
Here's your sample size
ONLY Star Wars film to fall under 50%.
Did you hear that there are groups who actively refused to see the films but coordinated to give negative reviews specifically to tank the film’s ranking on a variety of sites? That’s the very definition of why you can’t always trust polls. There are thousands of data points from people actively participating in an agenda to “destroy” these films. It’s pretty lame, and if you’re buying into it, it might be working.
But why are fans giving bad reviews for TLJ and Solo???? or even deliberately skewing those numbers???
Never have the fans reactd like this, even in regard to the PT - its because TLJ flopped in the eyes of many fans and in reality it did flop in comparison to what it should have made - Solo is a reaction to TLJ because of how peeved people are.
Not only are these movies bad, but additionally the political agendas being pushed and the reverse racism remarks from Lucasfilm and other media sources (such as Forbes) - this is all a reaction from the fanbase to all of that.
You are saying these movies are being targeted because these numbers are off - lets say that is the case, but why are these movies being targeted? get my point?
Lol you guys know she's making them tons of money right?
And from a corporate standpoint, that's all that matters.
Correct, so therefore she is very unlikely to be fired.
From a fan standpoint, at least the older, wiser group, she is destroying the franchise.
Lol this is a ridiculous statement. How old are you? I'm mid-40s and I love the new movies.
Look at how much h8 TLJ is getting.
Welcome to the internet.
Really? Some of the most die hard fans I know can't stand TFA or TLJ, and think TLJ is worse than TFA. These people were either going to see the OT when it was released or grew up only having 3 Star Wars films.
C'mon, you should understand sample size by now.
Here's your sample size
ONLY Star Wars film to fall under 50%.
Did you hear that there are groups who actively refused to see the films but coordinated to give negative reviews specifically to tank the film’s ranking on a variety of sites? That’s the very definition of why you can’t always trust polls. There are thousands of data points from people actively participating in an agenda to “destroy” these films. It’s pretty lame, and if you’re buying into it, it might be working.
But why are fans giving bad reviews for TLJ and Solo???? or even deliberately skewing those numbers???
Never have the fans reactd like this, even in regard to the PT - its because TLJ flopped in the eyes of many fans and in reality it did flop in comparison to what it should have made - Solo is a reaction to TLJ because of how peeved people are.
Not only are these movies bad, but additionally the political agendas being pushed and the reverse racism remarks from Lucasfilm and other media sources (such as Forbes) - this is all a reaction from the fanbase to all of that.
You are saying these movies are being targeted because these numbers are off - lets say that is the case, but why are these movies being targeted? get my point?
It doesn't really matter about the agendas, we need to take that out of the equation and look at the merit of the films themselves. Both sides of those debates need to go. The reviews do seem to point that the movies aren't on par with the OT. But so far I haven't read much on the merit of the films.
Lol you guys know she's making them tons of money right?
And from a corporate standpoint, that's all that matters.
Correct, so therefore she is very unlikely to be fired.
From a fan standpoint, at least the older, wiser group, she is destroying the franchise.
Lol this is a ridiculous statement. How old are you? I'm mid-40s and I love the new movies.
Look at how much h8 TLJ is getting.
Welcome to the internet.
Really? Some of the most die hard fans I know can't stand TFA or TLJ, and think TLJ is worse than TFA. These people were either going to see the OT when it was released or grew up only having 3 Star Wars films.
C'mon, you should understand sample size by now.
Here's your sample size
ONLY Star Wars film to fall under 50%.
Did you hear that there are groups who actively refused to see the films but coordinated to give negative reviews specifically to tank the film’s ranking on a variety of sites? That’s the very definition of why you can’t always trust polls. There are thousands of data points from people actively participating in an agenda to “destroy” these films. It’s pretty lame, and if you’re buying into it, it might be working.
But why are fans giving bad reviews for TLJ and Solo???? or even deliberately skewing those numbers???
Never have the fans reactd like this, even in regard to the PT - its because TLJ flopped in the eyes of many fans and in reality it did flop in comparison to what it should have made - Solo is a reaction to TLJ because of how peeved people are.
Not only are these movies bad, but additionally the political agendas being pushed and the reverse racism remarks from Lucasfilm and other media sources (such as Forbes) - this is all a reaction from the fanbase to all of that.
You are saying these movies are being targeted because these numbers are off - lets say that is the case, but why are these movies being targeted? get my point?
It doesn't really matter about the agendas, we need to take that out of the equation and look at the merit of the films themselves. Both sides of those debates need to go. The reviews do seem to point that the movies aren't on par with the OT. But so far I haven't read much on the merit of the films.
I thought TLJ was way better than TFA.
The agendas do matter though because it all factors in to how these Disney Star Wars movies are being received by its fan base audience - its not a general audience they are catering to - that's the problem. There is a generic audience seeing these movies of course, but a majority is star wars fans.
In total these are the reasons why people are annoyed and boycotting star wars - the boycott is a huge reason for the success or flop of these movies:
* Disiney makes all fan loved EU stories non-cannon as if they are nothing. This hurt a lot of fans
* Clone wars is cancelled abruptly, leaving gaping plot holes to make way for Rebels.
* The first of the new trilogy was a remake of ANH - a bit of a let down - not imaginative enough
* The sequel trilogy hero is female - not that's an issue, but lacks character development and relativity to audience. Overpowered for the sake of gender alone.
* Rogue One - another female lead - we just had this with TFA
* Battlefront 2 - another female lead - this is getting annoying to some fans - particularly as Star Wars is a male dominant franchise and so is computer games - BF2 lacks relativity for most players
* BF2 pay to win/gambling allegations didn't help this game either - as well as new content is not fast enough and not enjoyable enough - lost a lot of interest and money.
* Kennedy's promise to Lucas to preserve and respect the character he created
- Han is killed by his emo son
- Luke drinks green milk from an alien's tit; and is nothing like how or who his character was
- Leia turns into the force of Mary Poppins flying through space.
This upset the fans...huge.
* Political agendas - pushing the feminism (Rey, Jynn, Iden now L3 and oh ya, according to Kennedy...the Force is female too). Holdo and now Lando (Lando being an OT toon - again not preserving Lucas' created characters) are "Pansexual". L3 is an SJW droid who is "the firs female droid" she isn't and if she was...who cares, C3P0 is gay and the media didn't spin that down our throats.
* Rose (nothing against the actress) but was a boring character - merely thrown in for feminism and diversity - she added 0% to the entire movie of TLJ.
* TLJ ignored all plot setups left from TFA - fans were left with a feeling that there is no overall story to adhere to and Disney are making this all up as they go (unlike the OT and PT - the OT also had different directors, but followed a main story arch).
* White men go down - Luke is grumpy and not his character as we saw him, Hux is a feeble useless joke and Kylo is a miserable emo child - all the "white men" in the new trilogy are totally incompetent - is this coincidence or a message to from the new regime at Lucasfilm? Additionally check out some of the articles from Forbes:
Not only are these articles being defensive in favour of these new movies, ignoring the above reasons, but go as far to be racist towards white men.
Indeed Kathleen Kennedy herself and Rian Johnson defend their actions in the same way - anyone with points I have listed above are automatically targeted as overweight white fanboys who are racist and sexist bigots - I am sorry but lashing out to your fans that way is like poisoning the well from which you drink - they expect us to now show up and watch these movies?!!!!!
Solo, after the last jedi and all of the above had it tough. It was going to be tough. Especially as Ron Howard was brought in to save the movie after the firing of previous directors with most of the movie already shot - production cost went up big time. Solo will be lucky to break even.
Then there was the casting of Han - which upset a lot of people - he might be ok, but this is just another issue that gave fans a reason to question what is going on at Disney and Lucasfilm. Solo needed to be brilliant after TLJ - it wasn't. More political agendas and nonsense, hence the boycott.
As for merchandise - ya its failing. Star Wars merchandise is failing compared to that of Marvel. Yes children may like Rose or whatever, but collectors (grown men) don't care for action figures of Rose or L3 - they just don't, why because Disney and the media have been attacking those "fanboys".
Is the reason Star Wars fatigue??? Solo is in theatres within 5 months from TLJ! - WRONG. Within a space of 12 months Marvel releases at least 3 movies. We had Black Panther, Infinity war, now around the corner is Ant Man and the Wasp - Marvel is not fatigued..yet. On the contrary they are top at the box office. So fatigue as a reason just doesn't cut it.
Fans want good stories, good characters - we don't care what race or gender they are - just don't make that all what they are about. Just bring good characters to the table, with good stories that respect Lucas' characters as promised and fit in nicely with the galaxy - its not hard. Some of the (now scrap) EU stories were great and had a massive fan following - so its possible to do.
Rant over - if none of these points sink in at all, especially if Disney and Lucasfilm don't get it and continue attacking the fans which they rely upon for their survival - the franchise is over.
if none of these points sink in at all, especially if Disney and Lucasfilm don't get it and continue attacking the fans which they rely upon for their survival - the franchise is over.
Lol you guys know she's making them tons of money right?
And from a corporate standpoint, that's all that matters.
Correct, so therefore she is very unlikely to be fired.
From a fan standpoint, at least the older, wiser group, she is destroying the franchise.
Lol this is a ridiculous statement. How old are you? I'm mid-40s and I love the new movies.
Look at how much h8 TLJ is getting.
Welcome to the internet.
Really? Some of the most die hard fans I know can't stand TFA or TLJ, and think TLJ is worse than TFA. These people were either going to see the OT when it was released or grew up only having 3 Star Wars films.
C'mon, you should understand sample size by now.
Here's your sample size
ONLY Star Wars film to fall under 50%.
Did you hear that there are groups who actively refused to see the films but coordinated to give negative reviews specifically to tank the film’s ranking on a variety of sites? That’s the very definition of why you can’t always trust polls. There are thousands of data points from people actively participating in an agenda to “destroy” these films. It’s pretty lame, and if you’re buying into it, it might be working.
“But why are fans giving bad reviews for TLJ and Solo???? or even deliberately skewing those numbers???”
All the reasons I have read have filed under “entitled whining”.
“Never have the fans reactd like this, even in regard to the PT - its because TLJ flopped in the eyes of many fans and in reality it did flop in comparison to what it should have made - Solo is a reaction to TLJ because of how peeved people are.”
This is exactly how the angry fans reacted to the PT. It’s just those movies came out before Twitter, selfies, iphones, rotten tomatoes, and the complete mainstreaming of the internet, so most of the hate carried on in person or in ‘zines or in write-ins or at cons. Jake Lloyd’s life was ruined. He was just a kid.
Although this reminds me of another massive screaming of a fanbase at the creators of an intellectual property; I remember my stepsister getting involved in the 90’s in a write in and call in to magazines and TV stations because some very loud fans didn’t like what happened on Days of Our Lives. The venom I’ve seen from mad Star Wars fans looks very similar to that soap opera debacle.
“Not only are these movies bad,”
To you.
“ but additionally the political agendas being pushed and the reverse racism remarks from Lucasfilm and other media sources (such as Forbes) - this is all a reaction from the fanbase to all of that.”
Disney and lucasfilm are not responsible for the actions of a third entity. Also, please use the more accurate term ‘bigotry’.
“You are saying these movies are being targeted because these numbers are off - lets say that is the case, but why are these movies being targeted? get my point?”
*I’m* not saying the movies are being targeted, I’m saying the actual groups who are targeting these films have *said* they are targeting these films, are taking credit for any failures, and an intentional group contribution undermines the data integrity of any poll-based reporting system, which you referenced as being proof that the films were universally hated. If the data is compromised, you can’t trust the results of that data.
I agree that these movies fail to bridge gaps, and I think TFA fails to maintain a manageable story line, and that is what killed the movie for me. It was a movie for the sake of a movie and didn't feel like it went anywhere. Maybe Star Wars is for kids, but a lot of other movies, coming from Disney have content aimed towards adults and they go somewhere. TFA was riding the coattails of the 6 other movies. Big mistake, IMHO.
I am glad that your child finds enjoyment, how I miss those days, when things were simpler.
Thinking all this over, including all the comments about diversity, etc. I'm finding myself having an easier time relating to Rey and the brief backstory, if it can be called one, than Luke. There are differences and similarities. I will admit I had high expectations, with a decent knowledge of the EU going into the theater and that probably helped with my poor reception.
Thank you for your answer, I found it more enlightening.
Thank you! I’m enjoying your responses as well. I’m glad we can have this discussion, and so politely, too!
Lol you guys know she's making them tons of money right?
And from a corporate standpoint, that's all that matters.
Correct, so therefore she is very unlikely to be fired.
From a fan standpoint, at least the older, wiser group, she is destroying the franchise.
Lol this is a ridiculous statement. How old are you? I'm mid-40s and I love the new movies.
Look at how much h8 TLJ is getting.
Welcome to the internet.
Really? Some of the most die hard fans I know can't stand TFA or TLJ, and think TLJ is worse than TFA. These people were either going to see the OT when it was released or grew up only having 3 Star Wars films.
C'mon, you should understand sample size by now.
Here's your sample size
ONLY Star Wars film to fall under 50%.
Did you hear that there are groups who actively refused to see the films but coordinated to give negative reviews specifically to tank the film’s ranking on a variety of sites? That’s the very definition of why you can’t always trust polls. There are thousands of data points from people actively participating in an agenda to “destroy” these films. It’s pretty lame, and if you’re buying into it, it might be working.
But why are fans giving bad reviews for TLJ and Solo???? or even deliberately skewing those numbers???
Never have the fans reactd like this, even in regard to the PT - its because TLJ flopped in the eyes of many fans and in reality it did flop in comparison to what it should have made - Solo is a reaction to TLJ because of how peeved people are.
Not only are these movies bad, but additionally the political agendas being pushed and the reverse racism remarks from Lucasfilm and other media sources (such as Forbes) - this is all a reaction from the fanbase to all of that.
You are saying these movies are being targeted because these numbers are off - lets say that is the case, but why are these movies being targeted? get my point?
It doesn't really matter about the agendas, we need to take that out of the equation and look at the merit of the films themselves. Both sides of those debates need to go. The reviews do seem to point that the movies aren't on par with the OT. But so far I haven't read much on the merit of the films.
I thought TLJ was way better than TFA.
The agendas do matter though because it all factors in to how these Disney Star Wars movies are being received by its fan base audience - its not a general audience they are catering to - that's the problem. There is a generic audience seeing these movies of course, but a majority is star wars fans.
In total these are the reasons why people are annoyed and boycotting star wars - the boycott is a huge reason for the success or flop of these movies:
* Disiney makes all fan loved EU stories non-cannon as if they are nothing. This hurt a lot of fans
* Clone wars is cancelled abruptly, leaving gaping plot holes to make way for Rebels.
* The first of the new trilogy was a remake of ANH - a bit of a let down - not imaginative enough
* The sequel trilogy hero is female - not that's an issue, but lacks character development and relativity to audience. Overpowered for the sake of gender alone.
* Rogue One - another female lead - we just had this with TFA
* Battlefront 2 - another female lead - this is getting annoying to some fans - particularly as Star Wars is a male dominant franchise and so is computer games - BF2 lacks relativity for most players
* BF2 pay to win/gambling allegations didn't help this game either - as well as new content is not fast enough and not enjoyable enough - lost a lot of interest and money.
* Kennedy's promise to Lucas to preserve and respect the character he created
- Han is killed by his emo son
- Luke drinks green milk from an alien's tit; and is nothing like how or who his character was
- Leia turns into the force of Mary Poppins flying through space.
This upset the fans...huge.
* Political agendas - pushing the feminism (Rey, Jynn, Iden now L3 and oh ya, according to Kennedy...the Force is female too). Holdo and now Lando (Lando being an OT toon - again not preserving Lucas' created characters) are "Pansexual". L3 is an SJW droid who is "the firs female droid" she isn't and if she was...who cares, C3P0 is gay and the media didn't spin that down our throats.
* Rose (nothing against the actress) but was a boring character - merely thrown in for feminism and diversity - she added 0% to the entire movie of TLJ.
* TLJ ignored all plot setups left from TFA - fans were left with a feeling that there is no overall story to adhere to and Disney are making this all up as they go (unlike the OT and PT - the OT also had different directors, but followed a main story arch).
* White men go down - Luke is grumpy and not his character as we saw him, Hux is a feeble useless joke and Kylo is a miserable emo child - all the "white men" in the new trilogy are totally incompetent - is this coincidence or a message to from the new regime at Lucasfilm? Additionally check out some of the articles from Forbes:
Not only are these articles being defensive in favour of these new movies, ignoring the above reasons, but go as far to be racist towards white men.
Indeed Kathleen Kennedy herself and Rian Johnson defend their actions in the same way - anyone with points I have listed above are automatically targeted as overweight white fanboys who are racist and sexist bigots - I am sorry but lashing out to your fans that way is like poisoning the well from which you drink - they expect us to now show up and watch these movies?!!!!!
Solo, after the last jedi and all of the above had it tough. It was going to be tough. Especially as Ron Howard was brought in to save the movie after the firing of previous directors with most of the movie already shot - production cost went up big time. Solo will be lucky to break even.
Then there was the casting of Han - which upset a lot of people - he might be ok, but this is just another issue that gave fans a reason to question what is going on at Disney and Lucasfilm. Solo needed to be brilliant after TLJ - it wasn't. More political agendas and nonsense, hence the boycott.
As for merchandise - ya its failing. Star Wars merchandise is failing compared to that of Marvel. Yes children may like Rose or whatever, but collectors (grown men) don't care for action figures of Rose or L3 - they just don't, why because Disney and the media have been attacking those "fanboys".
Is the reason Star Wars fatigue??? Solo is in theatres within 5 months from TLJ! - WRONG. Within a space of 12 months Marvel releases at least 3 movies. We had Black Panther, Infinity war, now around the corner is Ant Man and the Wasp - Marvel is not fatigued..yet. On the contrary they are top at the box office. So fatigue as a reason just doesn't cut it.
Fans want good stories, good characters - we don't care what race or gender they are - just don't make that all what they are about. Just bring good characters to the table, with good stories that respect Lucas' characters as promised and fit in nicely with the galaxy - its not hard. Some of the (now scrap) EU stories were great and had a massive fan following - so its possible to do.
Rant over - if none of these points sink in at all, especially if Disney and Lucasfilm don't get it and continue attacking the fans which they rely upon for their survival - the franchise is over.
You make a lot of points, some of them I agree with, and others I have to question. In a few of your previous posts on this thread you have pointed out the changes to characters such as Lando and about the inclusion of many female leads in the various different movies/games.
Let me ask you this: If Lando's sexuality was never expressly mentioned in the original trilogy, why is it so upsetting to imagine that he could have very well been pansexual the entire time? Simply because most people didn't think of him as such, so therefore he was not? Sure, I doubt Lucas intended him to be that, but Star Wars is no longer in his hands, so as it stands, his intentions are no longer valid. In addition to this, it doesn't make Lando any less of a compelling or interesting character.
As for the fact there have been many female leads. What difference does it make, truly? You state the fanbase was "ready" for one. Fair enough, but the line is drawn at just one? If there had been a string of movies and games released with male characters as the leads, no one would have commented on their gender because that's a fairly common thing. Having a female lead is comparatively uncommon, so it is not only promoted but criticized as a result. In the end, it doesn't really make a difference what gender the lead is, and I'm sure you agree. That said, why do we bother to bring it up?
When the media and Disney (or whoever) celebrates things like inclusiveness and diversity, why do people feel the need to make a big deal out of it? If it doesn't matter to you, then so be it, but rest assured it matters a great deal to some. By going on about "agendas" it makes the fans seem exactly like the kind of people Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy are going on about. I understand that many of the fans who oppose having Star Wars used as a platform for social change in movies most likely have nothing against the idea of more diversity, so much as they simply oppose their favorite movie franchise being utilized for it. I get that, but I'd also like to ask "Is it such a bad thing?". If a movie franchise I loved helped make an actual positive change in the world beyond just entertaining people, I'd feel like that would be a wonderful thing.
I know you're probably thinking "Well, the movies are suffering because of the agenda. They made Rey purposefully overpowered for no reason other than to push 'Girl Power'". That's a (mostly) valid criticism, but it's the fault of the writing, not the fact that she's a female lead. I think we all agree that the writing is the problem, not the genders, or the message, or any of that. Therefore, why even bother to mention all that? Calling it to the forefront, again, makes the fans seem like the nasty individuals they are being labeled.
The concept of furthering diversity in films is beyond reproach. There is no "yes, but" to this. It cannot be argued that there is equal representation, and I think we all know this whether we are willing to admit it or not. There is no winning argument against this and any attempt simply makes a person look bad. As far as I can tell, this is public opinion.
Just so you know, I'm not trying to dismiss your criticisms, as a lot of them I agree with, but we need to stay focused and not get drawn into a debate about things that have no real bearing to the films. Just as promoting diversity in a movie doesn't automatically make it good, it doesn't make it bad either.
(As a side note, I want to also state that there has been no official statement from Kelly Marie Tran or her agent regarding the reasoning behind her leaving instagram. There was surely harassment going on, as there always is for nearly any celebrity, but this has not been officially stated as the reason for her departure from social media at this time. It also bears to remind that it was speculated that Daisy Ridley left instagram over harassment, but Ms. Ridley herself later came out and stated that she left because she felt too pressured to post and simply didn't want to keep up with it. I'm not suggesting that harassment isn't a huge issue, just that we should probably wait for confirmation before coming to conclusions. It's never, ever, okay to harass anyone.)
Replies
Hey Leaf - here are some articles for ya:
http://fortune.com/2018/01/18/with-star-wars-toys-the-force-is-strong-but-retail-sales-arent/
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-last-jedi-toy-shipments-down-sharply-force-awakens-1069479
https://www.cosmicbooknews.com/star-wars-last-jedi-toy-sales-tank
http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/despite-last-jedi-star-wars-toy-sales-dip-in-2017-due-to-apparent-‘movie-fatigue’
A lot of the articles claim failure of the toy line is down to "Movie fatigue" which is utter nonsense and the marvel movies and its merchandise is proof of that, lol
Here's a funny video
I’m in my 40’s, I’m a die hard SW fan, there were only 3 SW films that really mattered until about 3 years ago bc the prequels are nearly unwatchable to me, and I’m one of those Han Shot First types who hates the reworks of the OT with the crappy new music and creatures.
I effing *loved* TFA, TLJ, and Solo, and liked Rogue One for many reasons. As a writer with some experience with screenplays, there are some choices made that I thought could have been done better in each, but I pick things apart like that like I detect misplaced modifiers in text. I just notice weird stuff like that.
I’m stoked TLJ is going to be on Netflix later this month, and I can’t wait to go see Solo again. I’m loving it all. I refuse to walk into the theater being anything less than open-minded like I was with Star Wars when I was a kid. I’ve not been disappointed yet.
The organized harassment of SW actors/producers and continual whining about subjects and themes that that people act like are new but really existed in the series since the release of episode iv sure is making me like Star Wars *fans* a lot less, though. The gross behavior has got to stop.
My six-year-old son. You know, one of the future of the fan base? He insisted on all of those, and adamantly.
The Star Wars toy aisles where I live are routinely ransacked, and out of the stuff we want. My kid was MAD we couldn’t find a Rey figure for so long (toy companies initially did not make any Rey toys and were astonished by the demand for them, and had to play catch-up). He has his porg Pez dispenser on DISPLAY with his BB8 one.
We need to get past thinking these movies are still being made for our age group, because they aren’t.
Did you hear that there are groups who actively refused to see the films but coordinated to give negative reviews specifically to tank the film’s ranking on a variety of sites? That’s the very definition of why you can’t always trust polls. There are thousands of data points from people actively participating in an agenda to “destroy” these films. It’s pretty lame, and if you’re buying into it, it might be working.
I’m sure the largest toy retailer in the US being in financial trouble and entering liquidation during the same months the toys from the last two films were released are related. Sales expectations for toys and games will be wonky for a while.
With seemingly few exceptions, the majority of older fans, typical 25-30+ is where I'm hearing the poor ratings come from. Just like how you don't like the prequel trilogy, not sure of the reasons, but I'm sure I can guess a few. I can't stand the sequels most likely for similar reasons, and not because I read negative reviews and have to follow the crowd, if anything following the crowd is the wrong reason to like or hate something. I walked into the theater to see TFA with such a high expectation because it was Star Wars, J.J. Abrams was directing and co-wrote and I seen a few of his films and was impressed. I figured they got some good direction, an entire EU to glean a story from. It's going to be epic.I didn't think it was.
Citation needed
So you want me to site personal conversations I've had with numerous individuals of various ages?
What are your impressions on the movies themselves? Fan or not?
Sorry for some reason I thought you were saying a majority of fans in that age group disliked it. As opposed to what you were saying being anecdotal. I've just seen so much "this movie is objectively bad" talk and conflated the two. I personally like to love all the new films with TLJ being my favorite and am in my early 30s.
This. Oh so much this
I agree that most of the topics brought up for the movies downfalls are more off topic than they need to be, my personal disdain for them is from the actual movies themselves and my expectations of what a star wars movie is. For instance, the prequels are viewed in a negative light due to the CG work, Hayden's acting and Jar Jar...
I get that, I enjoyed the prequels, not exactly as much as the OT, and don't think most of the criticism is justified and the same is true for the sequel trilogy as well. Rey isn't exactly a Mary Sue, growing up in a desert by yourself would make you a strong individual, but her character seemed to me to be the Luke of the sequels. Same basic character pattern, re-skinned because at this point the name Star Wars alone gets people into the seats.
I think my task now should be watching the 2 movies and writing a list of Pros and Cons.
Man, that’s wild! The fans I know, other than young children, are exclusively in that age bracket and they have NO IDEA what is upsetting people so much. Like they’re listening, but don’t quite get the hate. My circles of fans of people 28-50 universally love the films. We all seem to agree that some storytelling bits should have been a little clearer (Rey’s power makes much more sense in TFA book), and yet we all still love the films.
I think the crew that hates this SW is just particularly loud and vocal, so maybe that’s why the complaints seem so universal.
Very interesting. Personally I have a lot of issues with the films, mostly TFA, and by continuation TLJ. All of my grievances stem more from the writing and plot, or lack thereof, IMHO. But I'm thinking a second viewing at home is warranted, see what changed they made from big to lil screen and try to clear my mind of bias.
The films definitely have issues. So did the OT and prequels.
Episode 4 definitely did not have Luke “always feeling his whole life like something was guiding him” or have a history of being some exceptional pilot. We have all backfilled that in. He was a whiny hothead brat like Kylo and Poe and Anakin. And so so many people forget how horrid the reviews and reaction to Empire was. It was only well after the release of Return that fans got it and Empire became the best-appreciated of the OT. At the time, the gripes were similar to what we hear now about TLJ.
TFA as a film does a poor job of showing Rey’s high level tech skills, sixth sense (force sense? not sure what to call it), excellent piloting skills, etc. It does a garbage job of showing Rey’s force history, and certainly doesn’t make clear what happened in the “mind meld” while Kylo was interrogating her, nor how that helped her kick his bum later. It certainly does not show that Rey, used to being alone and self-sufficient, had long listened to The Force without knowing what it was, and was used to following its lead, therefore making her a fast learner.
TLJ does a poor job of continuing showing that learning. Fans forget that Finn is occupying the same moral grey area that was Han’s area in the OT. There are no powers that happen in the film that are not listed in one of the many SW books, guides, or resources. The film does not get across how much trauma changes people, nor why Luke would be affected in that particular way. It suffered from the fans bringing a ton, but not all, of information with them, and the film didn’t bring enough to bridge the gap. There were a couple of unnecessary gag setups, imo, and I always loathe the “These ppl have known each other for like 4 hours but now they’re in luuuurve” rom-com stuff. There were a couple of continuity/universe integrity things that set me off, but that’s script errors for you. Do not get me started on how badly Phasma got repeatedly punked, although movies only have so long a run time before people won’t go to see them. That limits character development. She needs time in that upcoming Resistance series (crossing fingers).
All that said, they were still everything I love about SW. I will watch them again and again. My kid being scared at the theater, then spending a week doing somersaults and beeping while pretending to be BB8 says they’re doing it right. He pretends to be Yoda, Finn, Phasma, Rey, Chewie, whoever. They’ve sparked his imagination. I think many of us older fans underestimate just how much it did for us, too. It helped us have such active inner lives. What film could possibly live up to that?
We just assume Luke grew out of his peevish huffs, like (we hope) we did, and we find out he’s fallible and did not outgrow having tantrums. That makes us uncomfortable because what does that say about us? If Luke The Jedi Master ™️ cant leave his childishness behind, how can we?
It’s very difficult for humans to set their notions aside; we only see what we want to see. I believe that’s absolutely what’s in play here with some fan reactions. It is a lot of people in terms of quantity of fans, but not in terms of percent of fans. And let’s face it, this is still for kids and we are not kids. We don’t like to be told the world isn’t all about us.
I am glad that your child finds enjoyment, how I miss those days, when things were simpler.
Thinking all this over, including all the comments about diversity, etc. I'm finding myself having an easier time relating to Rey and the brief backstory, if it can be called one, than Luke. There are differences and similarities. I will admit I had high expectations, with a decent knowledge of the EU going into the theater and that probably helped with my poor reception.
Thank you for your answer, I found it more enlightening.
But why are fans giving bad reviews for TLJ and Solo???? or even deliberately skewing those numbers???
Never have the fans reactd like this, even in regard to the PT - its because TLJ flopped in the eyes of many fans and in reality it did flop in comparison to what it should have made - Solo is a reaction to TLJ because of how peeved people are.
Not only are these movies bad, but additionally the political agendas being pushed and the reverse racism remarks from Lucasfilm and other media sources (such as Forbes) - this is all a reaction from the fanbase to all of that.
You are saying these movies are being targeted because these numbers are off - lets say that is the case, but why are these movies being targeted? get my point?
It doesn't really matter about the agendas, we need to take that out of the equation and look at the merit of the films themselves. Both sides of those debates need to go. The reviews do seem to point that the movies aren't on par with the OT. But so far I haven't read much on the merit of the films.
I thought TLJ was way better than TFA.
The internet is toxic, but they're not as good as some people claim.
I'm waiting to hear why you like the movies.
The internet is also great at presenting opinion as fact. You fit right in.
And not liking a film is fine. Targeting it is a dumb waste of time at best, and harassment at worst (ask Ms. Tran).
Not targeting anyone, trying to include you in a conversation. If you don't want to contribute, you can ignore it and take your comments elsewhere.
You're conflating the two separate statements I made.
The agendas do matter though because it all factors in to how these Disney Star Wars movies are being received by its fan base audience - its not a general audience they are catering to - that's the problem. There is a generic audience seeing these movies of course, but a majority is star wars fans.
In total these are the reasons why people are annoyed and boycotting star wars - the boycott is a huge reason for the success or flop of these movies:
* Disiney makes all fan loved EU stories non-cannon as if they are nothing. This hurt a lot of fans
* Clone wars is cancelled abruptly, leaving gaping plot holes to make way for Rebels.
* The first of the new trilogy was a remake of ANH - a bit of a let down - not imaginative enough
* The sequel trilogy hero is female - not that's an issue, but lacks character development and relativity to audience. Overpowered for the sake of gender alone.
* Rogue One - another female lead - we just had this with TFA
* Battlefront 2 - another female lead - this is getting annoying to some fans - particularly as Star Wars is a male dominant franchise and so is computer games - BF2 lacks relativity for most players
* BF2 pay to win/gambling allegations didn't help this game either - as well as new content is not fast enough and not enjoyable enough - lost a lot of interest and money.
* Kennedy's promise to Lucas to preserve and respect the character he created
- Han is killed by his emo son
- Luke drinks green milk from an alien's tit; and is nothing like how or who his character was
- Leia turns into the force of Mary Poppins flying through space.
This upset the fans...huge.
* Political agendas - pushing the feminism (Rey, Jynn, Iden now L3 and oh ya, according to Kennedy...the Force is female too). Holdo and now Lando (Lando being an OT toon - again not preserving Lucas' created characters) are "Pansexual". L3 is an SJW droid who is "the firs female droid" she isn't and if she was...who cares, C3P0 is gay and the media didn't spin that down our throats.
* Rose (nothing against the actress) but was a boring character - merely thrown in for feminism and diversity - she added 0% to the entire movie of TLJ.
* TLJ ignored all plot setups left from TFA - fans were left with a feeling that there is no overall story to adhere to and Disney are making this all up as they go (unlike the OT and PT - the OT also had different directors, but followed a main story arch).
* White men go down - Luke is grumpy and not his character as we saw him, Hux is a feeble useless joke and Kylo is a miserable emo child - all the "white men" in the new trilogy are totally incompetent - is this coincidence or a message to from the new regime at Lucasfilm? Additionally check out some of the articles from Forbes:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/05/29/as-solo-a-star-wars-story-flops-are-movies-about-white-men-box-office-poison/#724e2e9e5d49
https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhughes/2018/06/08/kathleen-kennedy-is-still-the-best-person-to-make-star-wars-movies/#3a7f9ec63b10
Not only are these articles being defensive in favour of these new movies, ignoring the above reasons, but go as far to be racist towards white men.
Indeed Kathleen Kennedy herself and Rian Johnson defend their actions in the same way - anyone with points I have listed above are automatically targeted as overweight white fanboys who are racist and sexist bigots - I am sorry but lashing out to your fans that way is like poisoning the well from which you drink - they expect us to now show up and watch these movies?!!!!!
Solo, after the last jedi and all of the above had it tough. It was going to be tough. Especially as Ron Howard was brought in to save the movie after the firing of previous directors with most of the movie already shot - production cost went up big time. Solo will be lucky to break even.
Then there was the casting of Han - which upset a lot of people - he might be ok, but this is just another issue that gave fans a reason to question what is going on at Disney and Lucasfilm. Solo needed to be brilliant after TLJ - it wasn't. More political agendas and nonsense, hence the boycott.
As for merchandise - ya its failing. Star Wars merchandise is failing compared to that of Marvel. Yes children may like Rose or whatever, but collectors (grown men) don't care for action figures of Rose or L3 - they just don't, why because Disney and the media have been attacking those "fanboys".
Is the reason Star Wars fatigue??? Solo is in theatres within 5 months from TLJ! - WRONG. Within a space of 12 months Marvel releases at least 3 movies. We had Black Panther, Infinity war, now around the corner is Ant Man and the Wasp - Marvel is not fatigued..yet. On the contrary they are top at the box office. So fatigue as a reason just doesn't cut it.
Fans want good stories, good characters - we don't care what race or gender they are - just don't make that all what they are about. Just bring good characters to the table, with good stories that respect Lucas' characters as promised and fit in nicely with the galaxy - its not hard. Some of the (now scrap) EU stories were great and had a massive fan following - so its possible to do.
Rant over - if none of these points sink in at all, especially if Disney and Lucasfilm don't get it and continue attacking the fans which they rely upon for their survival - the franchise is over.
Lol.
*I’m* not saying the movies are being targeted, I’m saying the actual groups who are targeting these films have *said* they are targeting these films, are taking credit for any failures, and an intentional group contribution undermines the data integrity of any poll-based reporting system, which you referenced as being proof that the films were universally hated. If the data is compromised, you can’t trust the results of that data.
Thank you! I’m enjoying your responses as well. I’m glad we can have this discussion, and so politely, too!
You make a lot of points, some of them I agree with, and others I have to question. In a few of your previous posts on this thread you have pointed out the changes to characters such as Lando and about the inclusion of many female leads in the various different movies/games.
Let me ask you this: If Lando's sexuality was never expressly mentioned in the original trilogy, why is it so upsetting to imagine that he could have very well been pansexual the entire time? Simply because most people didn't think of him as such, so therefore he was not? Sure, I doubt Lucas intended him to be that, but Star Wars is no longer in his hands, so as it stands, his intentions are no longer valid. In addition to this, it doesn't make Lando any less of a compelling or interesting character.
As for the fact there have been many female leads. What difference does it make, truly? You state the fanbase was "ready" for one. Fair enough, but the line is drawn at just one? If there had been a string of movies and games released with male characters as the leads, no one would have commented on their gender because that's a fairly common thing. Having a female lead is comparatively uncommon, so it is not only promoted but criticized as a result. In the end, it doesn't really make a difference what gender the lead is, and I'm sure you agree. That said, why do we bother to bring it up?
When the media and Disney (or whoever) celebrates things like inclusiveness and diversity, why do people feel the need to make a big deal out of it? If it doesn't matter to you, then so be it, but rest assured it matters a great deal to some. By going on about "agendas" it makes the fans seem exactly like the kind of people Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy are going on about. I understand that many of the fans who oppose having Star Wars used as a platform for social change in movies most likely have nothing against the idea of more diversity, so much as they simply oppose their favorite movie franchise being utilized for it. I get that, but I'd also like to ask "Is it such a bad thing?". If a movie franchise I loved helped make an actual positive change in the world beyond just entertaining people, I'd feel like that would be a wonderful thing.
I know you're probably thinking "Well, the movies are suffering because of the agenda. They made Rey purposefully overpowered for no reason other than to push 'Girl Power'". That's a (mostly) valid criticism, but it's the fault of the writing, not the fact that she's a female lead. I think we all agree that the writing is the problem, not the genders, or the message, or any of that. Therefore, why even bother to mention all that? Calling it to the forefront, again, makes the fans seem like the nasty individuals they are being labeled.
The concept of furthering diversity in films is beyond reproach. There is no "yes, but" to this. It cannot be argued that there is equal representation, and I think we all know this whether we are willing to admit it or not. There is no winning argument against this and any attempt simply makes a person look bad. As far as I can tell, this is public opinion.
Just so you know, I'm not trying to dismiss your criticisms, as a lot of them I agree with, but we need to stay focused and not get drawn into a debate about things that have no real bearing to the films. Just as promoting diversity in a movie doesn't automatically make it good, it doesn't make it bad either.
(As a side note, I want to also state that there has been no official statement from Kelly Marie Tran or her agent regarding the reasoning behind her leaving instagram. There was surely harassment going on, as there always is for nearly any celebrity, but this has not been officially stated as the reason for her departure from social media at this time. It also bears to remind that it was speculated that Daisy Ridley left instagram over harassment, but Ms. Ridley herself later came out and stated that she left because she felt too pressured to post and simply didn't want to keep up with it. I'm not suggesting that harassment isn't a huge issue, just that we should probably wait for confirmation before coming to conclusions. It's never, ever, okay to harass anyone.)