@CG_TopHat I don't want to bury you for this, because you seem like the type of person I would respect. It isn't just you that makes this game, and it isn't you that this rage was directed at, even though you stood in front of it. I respect that, and what you said.
I only have one problem with the entire thread. I accept the "spirit of the raid" explanation, even though the spirit of the STR is to "Break Will". I am really curious about one thing you said: "we, first and foremost, are fans of this game.".
I would like to ask, are any of you free to play? Do you grind gear and character shards? Finally, do you play this raid in a guild of like-people? I am not saying that spending money is bad, but I have a feeling that you spend very little time playing the game.
I would simply ask that you and your developers play the game. Take an average roster for each of you, make a guild with each other, and attempt this raid. When you are finished, reflect on it. Ask yourselves: was this fun? Are the rewards commensurate with an end-game level of play or my roster's development? For perspective, play the Haat and Rancor as well. Try to remember the things that made Haat fun and challenging.
I have been able to post 30 mil damage in Haat for about 6 months now, 7* Kenobi, and my guild has many others like me, but I still do it every week because it is fun! A fun raid is what we all want, even if it is hard.
Sorry it is so long, but I hope you actually think about this. Anyway, thanks for the hope for future interactions and positive communication.
You know what @CG_Tophat good on you for having the confidence to come out here and say you made an error. A lot of other people wouldn't and I genuinely applaud you for it. Great news on the rollback, and I hope that the changes made to Critolyte stop that absurd strategy but leave our Sisters in a great, fun place to play.
I actually quit my guild that was doing the heroic sith raid because at the time it required everyone to pull all nighters to get a lucky RNG break - thus I went to a guild that didn't do the heroic raid and waited out that absolutely horrendous RNG fest... Now that they got it on farm I returned and just join the raid but don't do much except throw in the odd team on full auto and put the tablet aside until the horrendously complicated mechanics outwitted the auto AI - rinse and repeat. But it's not fun, it's a reason not to play the game...
The way Bonds of Weakness is designed is an open door to loopholes. It was proven by STHan and again by Asajj, but fixing the Asajj problem is not fixing the actual problem.
Fix Bonds of Weakness so there's no loophole potential, don't fix the toons. And fix it in such a way that "on damage taken" mechanics can be restored to function as intended on all toons that were nerfed.
Doing this is not only healthy for the raid, it's healthy for the future of the game. Future characters should not be designed with the constant worry of "will it create another loophole situation with BoW".
The solution is to prevent BoW damage if it would be lethal. That would
- Allow to restore STHan and other "on damage taken" toons. As their "on damage" ability will no longer trigger once their health has dropped too low in regards to the BoW count
- Prevent full-health characters from dropping below 100% once the BoW count is so high that it would reduce their health to 1
- Open the door for new strategies in the sith raid
Another solution to damage prevention would be to set the character's health to 1 without actually "Damaging" it (using a SetHealth function instead of TakeDamage) but not sure it would solve the "drops below 100% health" issue
I agree with what has been said above: the ONLY intention of the Sith raid is to break the will of the player base. It is the least fun activity not just in this game, but in almost any game I have played. Games are intended to be fun. Often that fun comes from challenge. In the case of the Sith Raid (and I am talking about T1-6 here), it is just sheer frustration for days on end, followed by horrendous rewards.
I don't understand this. It's almost as if it is some sort of fetish for the developers, and that makes me sad.
I just want to take the time to thank you for taking another look at the Bonds of Weakness issue & realize that we need to look at a different avenue. I have to admit that I was worried, upset, & felt pretty deflated. But you guys got together & did the right thing. So Thank You CG & keep up the good work. I know that you have been very busy bring us new Knights of the Old Republic toons which I find very exciting. My hats off to you for seeing & ultimately taking the responsibility & putting it on your shoulders.
This idea may have already been suggested but how about limiting the 50% tm gain to once per turn. This means she would only gain 50% tm. This would still give Traya some benefits in the team as it would increase damage and allow stacks to build higher since it would grant higher damage per hit (crit damage) and higher health recovery (health steal)
@CG_TopHat This idea seems to be the most simple and elegant solution to the infinite loop issue, without breaking any existing synergies. Kudos to the person who suggested it!
@Izza, that is a way bigger nerf than the previous one and would be even more horrible. Just make stacks lethal at 50.
Maybe I'm failing to see what you're seeing @Vohbo , care to explain what existing strategy will break with this?
Only Acolyte has the chance of falling below 100% health twice in a single turn and gain 2 x 50% TM. All other Nightsisters can gain that only once during any toon's turn as is. So adding a "once per turn" condition will only affect Acolyte's second heal (she will still heal and fall below 100% health twice but gain TM only from the first one). It will not change any other mechanic or interactions as far as I can see.
This is a gentlemen step taken. Not many developers adn community managers would take such a brave step to admit a defeat/ mistake and be so fast (eventhough the reaction was even faster and more devastating).
All in all it is good to see, that our Feedback actually does get cared about. This makes the believe in this game grow bigger. There are many ideas in the Community and I guess it would be a good idea to gather some of our ideas. Compare them to your ideas and then maybe there is something in common what would benefit all of us.
Together we are stronger and the force will always be with us no matter what!
When I posted my comment under the original announcement of nerf to NS, I appealed to CG's usual good habit of listening to players' feedback.
And I am glad that they have maintained their good record in that regard.
Thank you for listening, and thank you for the community of players who in large are cooperative and have faith in the game and the devs.
We all make mistakes (though there seem to be a series of rushed mistakes recently, but i digress).
We hope you do your testing this time in a more calm manner, instead of panicking over a loop that very few players can achieve. And we hope you keep NS synergy intact, with minimal changes in order to rebalance the raid and eliminate the loops.
@Izza, that is a way bigger nerf than the previous one and would be even more horrible. Just make stacks lethal at 50.
Maybe I'm failing to see what you're seeing @Vohbo , care to explain what existing strategy will break with this?
Only Acolyte has the chance of falling below 100% health twice in a single turn and gain 2 x 50% TM. All other Nightsisters can gain that only once during any toon's turn as is. So adding a "once per turn" condition will only affect Acolyte's second heal (she will still heal and fall below 100% health twice but gain TM only from the first one). It will not change any other mechanic or interactions as far as I can see.
Ah, you mean once per turn of any character. I assumed you meant once per turn per nightsister.
@Izza, that is a way bigger nerf than the previous one and would be even more horrible. Just make stacks lethal at 50.
Maybe I'm failing to see what you're seeing @Vohbo , care to explain what existing strategy will break with this?
Only Acolyte has the chance of falling below 100% health twice in a single turn and gain 2 x 50% TM. All other Nightsisters can gain that only once during any toon's turn as is. So adding a "once per turn" condition will only affect Acolyte's second heal (she will still heal and fall below 100% health twice but gain TM only from the first one). It will not change any other mechanic or interactions as far as I can see.
Ah, you mean once per turn of any character. I assumed you meant once per turn per nightsister.
Yes, exactly! It'll be a simple way to get rid of this loop nonsense without having anything else changed
Do not change Zombie!
Time has already fixed the problem! When she was new paper Zombie was good, now strong Zombie is better.
What could possibly be the reason for this nerf? Are they trying to time it so that people will never be able to be happy with her? I can not understand it.
@CG_TopHat Could you please let me know if these rollbacked changes will affect my current heroic STR? We are currently in phase 3 and will only be our second time of killing heroic.
@CG_TopHat Could you please let me know if these rollbacked changes will affect my current heroic STR? We are currently in phase 3 and will only be our second time of killing heroic.
If you started it pre-rollback. It will probably be the same way. So your next str will have the roll back.
you must give back the players all the money, gears, cristals, zetas they put in nts team or else the game has become a scam!!!
I don't trust you anymore!!!
@CG_TopHat Thanks for admitting your mistake. Very appreciated move from your side.
Please note that most of us agree with the fact that infinite loops damage the intended raid philosophy and that most of us don't want them in the game as much as you guys. We like a good challenge, but please refrain from nerfing factions simply because they do well in the raid. As long as it is not game breaking, factions should stay the same when it comes to raid viability. Making them significantly weaker than before is only a slap in the face for all the players who spent a ton of money and time to gear those characters. Please take your time to evaluate causes of infinite loops or other exploits and think about how to solve them. Don't rush with solutions as this is very likely to cause even more problems, be it with follow-up bugs, or the community backlash. Try to think of solutions that don't make any faction weaker than they currently are. We dislike cheese tactics as much as you, and want a balanced, but fair game. We love the game and want it to succeed. So please put as much effort into fixing things as we are in supporting the game.
I want all zetas on Nightsisters when they rool changed Zombie. I didnvt touch Nightsisters until couple of months. All my gear, zetas... All of it were invested in them. Paper Zombie is a known fact for minimum 6 months, it was clear (to me) that it 's going to stay.
Anyway, give us our zetas (Asajj unique as best example) back a then we can make informative decision what to do with Nightsisters.
Nightsisters in phase 4 is probably the best bit about the entire sith raid. Thank you for reverting back please consider our views and don't make significant changes to nightsisters in the raid. Getting a decent score with nightsisters requires strategy and you should be encouraging it not nerfing it.
We all agree that you shouldn't be able to auto the phase using the acolyte tactic but that is an issue with bonds of weakness and traya. Most of your community don't have 7* Traya and can't use it but a lot of us have put considerable resources in to nightsisters and the 4 Zetas that team required in what is still a challenging raid
Very refreshing to see your post @CG_TopHat . Reasonable community members wont take this lightly, and do have respect for you for owning up to these actions. You also have to understand there will be those who are still displeased given the history.
Memebers of this comminity also have been here long enough to know that CG ambassadors come and go, and also why. Im glad you took a step towards the players rather than the corporate agenda that you have to follow. Many here are appreciate CG, we just cant appreciate the corporate orders that you are forced to follow, and that is where the biggest issues of all arise. The communication with us is important, and some of those who you work for just disregard that and never factor it into decision making. If that gap can one day be breached, i feel that the future of the game will be secure. Health and longevity of the game will improve drastically and so will the business aspect of this whole endeavour.
Thank you for your consideration of the players. We really appreciate that.
The way Bonds of Weakness is designed is an open door to loopholes. It was proven by STHan and again by Asajj, but fixing the Asajj problem is not fixing the actual problem.
Fix Bonds of Weakness so there's no loophole potential, don't fix the toons. And fix it in such a way that "on damage taken" mechanics can be restored to function as intended on all toons that were nerfed. issue
^^ This. Change BOW mechanics instead of nerfing half of our roster.
Replies
I only have one problem with the entire thread. I accept the "spirit of the raid" explanation, even though the spirit of the STR is to "Break Will". I am really curious about one thing you said: "we, first and foremost, are fans of this game.".
I would like to ask, are any of you free to play? Do you grind gear and character shards? Finally, do you play this raid in a guild of like-people? I am not saying that spending money is bad, but I have a feeling that you spend very little time playing the game.
I would simply ask that you and your developers play the game. Take an average roster for each of you, make a guild with each other, and attempt this raid. When you are finished, reflect on it. Ask yourselves: was this fun? Are the rewards commensurate with an end-game level of play or my roster's development? For perspective, play the Haat and Rancor as well. Try to remember the things that made Haat fun and challenging.
I have been able to post 30 mil damage in Haat for about 6 months now, 7* Kenobi, and my guild has many others like me, but I still do it every week because it is fun! A fun raid is what we all want, even if it is hard.
Sorry it is so long, but I hope you actually think about this. Anyway, thanks for the hope for future interactions and positive communication.
Thank you, sincerely.
Asajj is not the problem
Bonds of Weakness is the problem
The way Bonds of Weakness is designed is an open door to loopholes. It was proven by STHan and again by Asajj, but fixing the Asajj problem is not fixing the actual problem.
Fix Bonds of Weakness so there's no loophole potential, don't fix the toons. And fix it in such a way that "on damage taken" mechanics can be restored to function as intended on all toons that were nerfed.
Doing this is not only healthy for the raid, it's healthy for the future of the game. Future characters should not be designed with the constant worry of "will it create another loophole situation with BoW".
The solution is to prevent BoW damage if it would be lethal. That would
- Allow to restore STHan and other "on damage taken" toons. As their "on damage" ability will no longer trigger once their health has dropped too low in regards to the BoW count
- Prevent full-health characters from dropping below 100% once the BoW count is so high that it would reduce their health to 1
- Open the door for new strategies in the sith raid
Another solution to damage prevention would be to set the character's health to 1 without actually "Damaging" it (using a SetHealth function instead of TakeDamage) but not sure it would solve the "drops below 100% health" issue
I don't understand this. It's almost as if it is some sort of fetish for the developers, and that makes me sad.
@CG_TopHat This idea seems to be the most simple and elegant solution to the infinite loop issue, without breaking any existing synergies. Kudos to the person who suggested it!
Now please fix rewards on T1-6 and T7 >11
Thank you.
Maybe I'm failing to see what you're seeing @Vohbo , care to explain what existing strategy will break with this?
Only Acolyte has the chance of falling below 100% health twice in a single turn and gain 2 x 50% TM. All other Nightsisters can gain that only once during any toon's turn as is. So adding a "once per turn" condition will only affect Acolyte's second heal (she will still heal and fall below 100% health twice but gain TM only from the first one). It will not change any other mechanic or interactions as far as I can see.
All in all it is good to see, that our Feedback actually does get cared about. This makes the believe in this game grow bigger. There are many ideas in the Community and I guess it would be a good idea to gather some of our ideas. Compare them to your ideas and then maybe there is something in common what would benefit all of us.
Together we are stronger and the force will always be with us no matter what!
Thank you!
And I am glad that they have maintained their good record in that regard.
Thank you for listening, and thank you for the community of players who in large are cooperative and have faith in the game and the devs.
We all make mistakes (though there seem to be a series of rushed mistakes recently, but i digress).
We hope you do your testing this time in a more calm manner, instead of panicking over a loop that very few players can achieve. And we hope you keep NS synergy intact, with minimal changes in order to rebalance the raid and eliminate the loops.
Ah, you mean once per turn of any character. I assumed you meant once per turn per nightsister.
Yes, exactly! It'll be a simple way to get rid of this loop nonsense without having anything else changed
Time has already fixed the problem! When she was new paper Zombie was good, now strong Zombie is better.
What could possibly be the reason for this nerf? Are they trying to time it so that people will never be able to be happy with her? I can not understand it.
If you started it pre-rollback. It will probably be the same way. So your next str will have the roll back.
I don't trust you anymore!!!
Any sane IT developement crew would have a testing bed for these kinds of things to know that they work as intended before going live.
Could you at least - pretty please - be a professional IT company when we pour our hard earned money into your sink hole of a game!?
Please note that most of us agree with the fact that infinite loops damage the intended raid philosophy and that most of us don't want them in the game as much as you guys. We like a good challenge, but please refrain from nerfing factions simply because they do well in the raid. As long as it is not game breaking, factions should stay the same when it comes to raid viability. Making them significantly weaker than before is only a slap in the face for all the players who spent a ton of money and time to gear those characters. Please take your time to evaluate causes of infinite loops or other exploits and think about how to solve them. Don't rush with solutions as this is very likely to cause even more problems, be it with follow-up bugs, or the community backlash. Try to think of solutions that don't make any faction weaker than they currently are. We dislike cheese tactics as much as you, and want a balanced, but fair game. We love the game and want it to succeed. So please put as much effort into fixing things as we are in supporting the game.
Anyway, give us our zetas (Asajj unique as best example) back a then we can make informative decision what to do with Nightsisters.
Reaction from community seems clear and legit.
- prevent unintended loops that trivialize the content: yes, go ahead, green light.
- nerf characters - we payed for - afterwards: please don’t. Red light.
Paper zombie is a legit dynamic,is somewhat a creative and fresh alternative - and very fun to play.
We all agree that you shouldn't be able to auto the phase using the acolyte tactic but that is an issue with bonds of weakness and traya. Most of your community don't have 7* Traya and can't use it but a lot of us have put considerable resources in to nightsisters and the 4 Zetas that team required in what is still a challenging raid
Memebers of this comminity also have been here long enough to know that CG ambassadors come and go, and also why. Im glad you took a step towards the players rather than the corporate agenda that you have to follow. Many here are appreciate CG, we just cant appreciate the corporate orders that you are forced to follow, and that is where the biggest issues of all arise. The communication with us is important, and some of those who you work for just disregard that and never factor it into decision making. If that gap can one day be breached, i feel that the future of the game will be secure. Health and longevity of the game will improve drastically and so will the business aspect of this whole endeavour.
Thank you for your consideration of the players. We really appreciate that.
^^ This. Change BOW mechanics instead of nerfing half of our roster.