Preventing Critolyte, Second Pass [MEGA]

Prev13456714
TyloRen
381 posts Moderator
DEV POST
CG_TopHat wrote: »
We’d like to thank everyone for their patience as we’ve worked through the Bonds of Weakness rollback (details here) and gone through the process of finding another solution to prevent Critolyte. We went back to the drawing board of our discarded ideas (along with generating some new ones) and gathered feedback from the forums, Reddit, and players. As we looked at different options, we asked ourselves, “Can we alter Nightsister Acolyte’s kit in such a way as to maintain her PvE/PvP balance while keeping her kit functionally the same and somehow also cutting down Critolyte?" Our preference is always to find a solution without touching character kits (if possible), but we think an adjustment to Nightsister Acolyte is preferable to other options that would impact the game with a much larger footprint and have wider balance ramifications for other teams or game modes.

After we did some exploring in the studio and came up with our proposal, we sat down with beta testers and other players highly engaged on this issue and discussed our solution. They asked some questions about other options, why we chose our solution, and clarified some of the finer points. These players gave us great feedback and asked really pointed questions. Ultimately, they carried your voice forward and helped us keep the Nightsisters great. Thank you for your service!

So what are the changes?

Basic – Strike from the Shadows
  • Two attacks if stealthed -> Double damage if stealthed
  • Stealth chance increased from 70% -> 90%

Unique – Thrill of Victory
  • Heal Amount increased from 20% -> 40%

The end result, our testing shows, is that Nightsister Acolyte’s PvP utility/damage output should remain virtually unchanged (our data shows she is part of a common strategy in many shards and rankings, so we wanted to preserve her ability to dish out damage). Simultaneously, this cuts down the Critolyte strategy in the Sith Triumvirate Raid. Finally, given that Nightsister Acolyte’s viability remains virtually unchanged (aside from neutering Critolyte), we’re going to leave all equipment and abilities seated on her.

This change will go live next week with our next release. We want to put it in front of you so that you can see the upcoming change and have a chance to share your thoughts in advance. Again, thank you for your patience and help in getting to a change that is more acceptable to the community at large.

Finally, we’re still working through the Zombie changes and will be for a little bit. Expect any changes to Zombie to occur sometime before the end of September. Similarly, the plan is still to refund Old Daka Zetas at that time.

Thank you.

DEV POST

Replies

  • EnigmaCiper
    266 posts Member
    edited August 2018
    How does increasing stealth chance and health amount stop the loop ? What exactly is being taken away from the kit?

    Zombie is fine. It doesn’t break the raid. You should trash reworking or changing zombie.
  • It seems they made it count as one hit if I had to guess
  • zhtd17 wrote: »
    still don't know why you feel the need to change zombie's kit?
    your reasons aren't logical at all and you took critolyte as an excuse to change her kit after several months, and you were always saying that she's working as intended.

    Ugh. They've already said they're going to look at it.
  • Zevox
    172 posts Member
    Glad to see a reasonable solution to the Acolyte/Traya infinite that won't hurt the Nightsisters in the raid in general. Thumbs up there.

    Have to say, slightly worried about the mention that the Daka zeta refund is still on for when the Zombie change happens. That implies that you guys think the change will reduce its usefulness, when what you'd said previously just made me think you were going to try and set things up such that we'd want to gear up Zombie to make her as useful as she currently is at low gear. Guess it's wait and see on that one though.
  • Mr_Wasnidge
    16 posts Member
    edited August 2018
    Offer everyone with Zombie a rebate on gearing if they want... or do it automatically, like the Daka refunds were going to happen. In the long run, she's better geared up... people who don't see that can be stuck with paper zombie if they want. It's just another time that any cool and fun mechanic will get the "Muzac" treatment... just like they're about to do with Acolyte.
  • Vinny_Vader_Vedi
    4626 posts Member
    edited August 2018
    An acolyte fix was a great way to go.
    If I’m correct most use - asajj daka Mt talia and zombie.

    Good stuff. Glad you all rolled this back and went this route.

    The daka zeta - I will keep on daka. But it shouldn’t be a refund but a whole zeta for free.

    As for zombie I’m worried that a gear threshold will be implemented for a raid. That scares me for many reasons.
  • Seems like a reasonable change. It's giving her a higher stealth chance and a larger heal when she crits, making it even more difficult to defeat her with AoEs while stealthed. I like it.
  • This is a better solution than before, but I can’t say I love it. I do a ton of damage with Acolyte in P4, and it’s because I can do that loop with her. It’s not an infinite loop, because I don’t have Traya, but it loops about 5-10 times or so before I need to reset and heal everyone back up. This was an accepted strategy before. Now it won’t work near as well because I can’t loop at all.
  • Zevox
    172 posts Member
    This is a better solution than before, but I can’t say I love it. I do a ton of damage with Acolyte in P4, and it’s because I can do that loop with her. It’s not an infinite loop, because I don’t have Traya, but it loops about 5-10 times or so before I need to reset and heal everyone back up. This was an accepted strategy before. Now it won’t work near as well because I can’t loop at all.
    You may find that actually helps. The version of the team without Acolyte does more damage partially because it can keep the turn meter train rolling for the entire team far more consistently than a version with her can. Acolyte taking a lot of turns in a row to herself means the rest of the team taking a lot of damage from bonds that isn't getting healed, preventing them from looping heals to keep the whole team taking turns constantly the way the non-Acolyte version does. No you can do that with Acolyte on the team too.
  • CG_TopHat wrote: »
    Zevox wrote: »
    Glad to see a reasonable solution to the Acolyte/Traya infinite that won't hurt the Nightsisters in the raid in general. Thumbs up there.

    Have to say, slightly worried about the mention that the Daka zeta refund is still on for when the Zombie change happens. That implies that you guys think the change will reduce its usefulness, when what you'd said previously just made me think you were going to try and set things up such that we'd want to gear up Zombie to make her as useful as she currently is at low gear. Guess it's wait and see on that one though.

    This is a great point about the appearance of how we feel the change will go and really appreciate the perspective. We are early enough in the design process for the change to Zombie, that I can't reasonably say what the specifics of what it's going to be. That said, we're keenly aware of the position we've put players in: some players geared her up heavily and now regret it and some players have her under-geared and strategies around her being under-geared.

    For us, the most successful version of the change means that we need to make sure that gearing her up feels awesome and that she still fits in with the core Nightsister team in a way that is either reminiscent of previous strategies or better than previous strategies. Meaning 1) you still always want Zombie in a Nightsister team and 2) that we've respected previous strategies by either keeping them in play or improving on them. Obviously, that's a big bill to fill but we're excited to try to do it right and we're going to try to hit these goals.

    We're offering the Daka Zeta with the update of Zombie because it is a high bar for us to reach. And while we are going to do our best to reach it, we know that some people may still feel that their Daka maybe doesn't have a place in their Nightsister team after the change. And for that, we think it only makes sense to remove the Zeta and return it to the players that no longer want it on Daka. I hope this helps clarify some of our thinking on it.

    TL;DR We don't know what the change looks like. Our goals are to make sure you want to keep the Daka Zeta slotted. We recognized we might not hit the bar and want to offer returning it to players.

    This is definitely the right approach, and I applaud you all for that. I’m cautiously excited to see a zombie rework in hopes that my strong zombie will be even better.
  • Zevox
    172 posts Member
    CG_TopHat wrote: »
    Zevox wrote: »
    Glad to see a reasonable solution to the Acolyte/Traya infinite that won't hurt the Nightsisters in the raid in general. Thumbs up there.

    Have to say, slightly worried about the mention that the Daka zeta refund is still on for when the Zombie change happens. That implies that you guys think the change will reduce its usefulness, when what you'd said previously just made me think you were going to try and set things up such that we'd want to gear up Zombie to make her as useful as she currently is at low gear. Guess it's wait and see on that one though.

    This is a great point about the appearance of how we feel the change will go and really appreciate the perspective. We are early enough in the design process for the change to Zombie, that I can't reasonably say what the specifics of what it's going to be. That said, we're keenly aware of the position we've put players in: some players geared her up heavily and now regret it and some players have her under-geared and strategies around her being under-geared.

    For us, the most successful version of the change means that we need to make sure that gearing her up feels awesome and that she still fits in with the core Nightsister team in a way that is either reminiscent of previous strategies or better than previous strategies. Meaning 1) you still always want Zombie in a Nightsister team and 2) that we've respected previous strategies by either keeping them in play or improving on them. Obviously, that's a big bill to fill but we're excited to try to do it right and we're going to try to hit these goals.

    We're offering the Daka Zeta with the update of Zombie because it is a high bar for us to reach. And while we are going to do our best to reach it, we know that some people may still feel that their Daka maybe doesn't have a place in their Nightsister team after the change. And for that, we think it only makes sense to remove the Zeta and return it to the players that no longer want it on Daka. I hope this helps clarify some of our thinking on it.

    TL;DR We don't know what the change looks like. Our goals are to make sure you want to keep the Daka Zeta slotted. We recognized we might not hit the bar and want to offer returning it to players.
    Ah, good to know. Thank you for the much more detailed clarification of that than I'd ever expected to get. I certainly hope you guys can find a way to meet that goal, as it certainly seems to be a hard one given the strange scenario Zombie represents. Best of luck!
  • As Justin_Case1 said "In my experience using NS in arena is that she needs both attacks(while stealthed) one to break foresight and one to actually do damage." and as Obi1_son said "So with this change you have lowered the usefulness on MT's lead zeta as you now cannot res 2 characters with one attack. Can I get that zeta refunded???? "
    You can go ahead and refund all gears/ zetas that i've put on any of my NS in the past 8 months because thats how long i've used Acolyte in my arena team and you're changing all of the benefits of her double attack.
    Acolyte has been around for over the 2 years that i've been playing, Trayas been around for 6 months now....so lets change the character thats been around longer instead of the one A LOT less people have. Makes sense!

    This may be the lesser of all evils to prevent a bigger kitten show. Arena metas change all the time. We can get over that. All I want is the one zeta back as it is made less useful now. Sisters as a faction will still have value and utility in the raid.
  • Farebearclaw
    25 posts Member
    edited August 2018
    @CG_TopHat thanks for the information! Someone mentioned it above but this change to Acolyte’s kit may affect the way revives happen under Talzin with the Great Mother Zeta. It seems this will change the revive count to one instead of a possible two Nightsisters. I’m not sure on the impact this will have, but it’s something to think about. Also, Acolyte’s double attack helps get through teams with foresight, so that might be an issues as well.

    In regards to Zombie and Daka, when the change comes to Zombie, it might be a good idea to tweak Daka’s zeta where she still benefits in some way with NS Zombie. I’m not sure in what way, but it could be a good way to keep Daka zeta’d and provide some of the same benefits in the STR.

    Just a couple of thoughts, thanks for listening!

    Second Edit: Also, the change from two shots to one will change the TM reduction chance when she’s under an Asajj lead.
    Post edited by Farebearclaw on
  • CG_TopHat wrote: »
    Zevox wrote: »
    Glad to see a reasonable solution to the Acolyte/Traya infinite that won't hurt the Nightsisters in the raid in general. Thumbs up there.

    Have to say, slightly worried about the mention that the Daka zeta refund is still on for when the Zombie change happens. That implies that you guys think the change will reduce its usefulness, when what you'd said previously just made me think you were going to try and set things up such that we'd want to gear up Zombie to make her as useful as she currently is at low gear. Guess it's wait and see on that one though.

    This is a great point about the appearance of how we feel the change will go and really appreciate the perspective. We are early enough in the design process for the change to Zombie, that I can't reasonably say what the specifics of what it's going to be. That said, we're keenly aware of the position we've put players in: some players geared her up heavily and now regret it and some players have her under-geared and strategies around her being under-geared.

    For us, the most successful version of the change means that we need to make sure that gearing her up feels awesome and that she still fits in with the core Nightsister team in a way that is either reminiscent of previous strategies or better than previous strategies. Meaning 1) you still always want Zombie in a Nightsister team and 2) that we've respected previous strategies by either keeping them in play or improving on them. Obviously, that's a big bill to fill but we're excited to try to do it right and we're going to try to hit these goals.

    We're offering the Daka Zeta with the update of Zombie because it is a high bar for us to reach. And while we are going to do our best to reach it, we know that some people may still feel that their Daka maybe doesn't have a place in their Nightsister team after the change. And for that, we think it only makes sense to remove the Zeta and return it to the players that no longer want it on Daka. I hope this helps clarify some of our thinking on it.

    TL;DR We don't know what the change looks like. Our goals are to make sure you want to keep the Daka Zeta slotted. We recognized we might not hit the bar and want to offer returning it to players.

    For the purpose of raids, one way to 'encourage' players to gear Zombie is to place a health penalty on her NS allies when she dies, and have it associated with her gear tier.

    Say each time Zombie dies, all NS allies lose health equivalent to (1/gear tier x 100% of their base health), with no prohibition of a character being able die from this loss of health. They can of course be revived as normal if dying this way.

    Yes, it will make Mother Talzin's unique zeta more valuable, but it will keep Old Daka's unique zeta relevant also because she may be reviving NS allies more frequently. The caveat is that you will also need to gear Old Daka sufficiently so that she also is able to withstand the loss of health from Zombie frequently dying herself.


  • Well at least we'll still get a box of tissue and a wooden plaque saying "Well Done" when we finally suffer through all 14 years it takes to beat the thing.

    It's almost like EA will have them killed if this raid doesn't work or something.

    Raid bad, rewards bad, nerfs (sorry, rebalancing) also bad. Conclusion = gigantic cluster fondle, which saps will to live of all but a handful of players.

    Hey, it's still better than MSF
Sign In or Register to comment.