Where is fixing potency/tenacity on the priority list?

I think a few of us have asked about this for a while. Frankly, I'm tired of seeing my arena team that has 150-200% potency or tenacity getting obliterated by a team with half or less of the respective number.

The numbers are getting so out of whack that they've become irrelevant because the AI we face does pretty much whatever it wants to. (Whether you program it that way, or it gives itself better rolls on its own) I just want the 200+% tenacity on my Bastila team to actually mean something against a team with half as much potency. I want the potency on my EP team that's 130% to mean that debuffs will stick and/or actions like Nihilus' cooldown actually happen (lately his cooldown isn't happening on more than 2-3 characters per match, meanwhile the AI's Nihilus hits cooldown on my entire team 100% of the time). Same as EP's mass stun that stuns 1-3 for me, sometimes NONE, but for the AI stuns 4-5 pretty much 2-3 times a match.

Replies

  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    I dont think we have seen this as being on the list, so not sure how its priorities are ranked....

    Can you post your data? Many people who try to understand what is going on record data to get a better understanding of the situation.

    Potency and tenacity do have an odd interaction, and part of that is a base resistance that means no matter how much potency you have there is a chance to resist.
  • Here's today's mirror match "data" for you:

    EP team with a slower Thrawn that went before my thrawn did. My Nihilus does "drain force" and YET AGAIN only does cooldowns on 2 AI characters. Meanwhile, the AI's nihilus (yet again) does drain force and all 5 of my characters get cooldown on them. Again. My Nihilus has 63% potency on his own, without EP's potency boost and also has almost 60% tenacity (which is irrelevant obviously). AI's Nihilus had less than 60% potency on his own. Hmm, well that doesn't make sense. Why does my Nihilus only do cooldowns on 2 while the AI's Nihilus do ALL FIVE characters of mine. Again. (Tenacity info below)

    EP mass shock. Mine? I got 2 mass stun attacks off, got 2 stuns the first time and 3 the second. My EP's potency is at 86% without his leadership potency buff. My EP is double zeta'd just like the other team's EP. AI's EP mass stun? Hit 4 of my 5 team members. AI's EP potency is at 65% before leadership boost. (Again, for the 5th or 6th day in a row now.) The other team's tenacity rates? Nihilus at 80%, all the rest had lower tenacity percentages than mine, which is usual.

    Also, my team overall was faster than his, but my team got beat around like a rug on a laundry line. AI's Nihilus also did annihilate before mine was even close to being ready (like 3-4 turns before), which happens almost every time I do a mirror match. When I look at numbers, my team should destroy the AI's EP team. But, as is often the case, my team gets destroyed because debuffs don't hit, ability block doesn't land, my mass stun doesn't do crap, etc. Yet, the AI's team mass stuns 4-5 of my team, sometimes 3 times in one freakin' match, debuffs happen against every member on my team, my team gets ability blocked like crazy, etc.

    So again, why is tenacity not on the priority list to fix? Why does the AI get such ridiculous boosts and buffs to what it does that I can't compete against some matches where I should destroy the mirror team, or any other team? Hell I've even had my Bastila team get 5-10 debuffs against EP teams when my jedi have 200%+ tenacity, after two attacks from the EP team. Seriously, wth?

    I've had R2s with 50% potency stun my ENTIRE TEAM one at a time, but my Gear 12 double-zeta'd EP can't stun more than 3 regularly? Sure, I can mass stun 4-5 maybe 3 times in a week. Compare that to an EP mirror team that mass stuns my whole team 3 times in one match. What makes that worse? R2 has -35% potency because he's a rebel, but stuns better than my EP with 121% total potency. Yeah, sure. That's whether he's on a CLS lead team or a JTR lead team.

    How much more data do I need to provide? If CG wants to send me a phone with an account on it, I'll be happy to test more with more data to provide. But I try to do at least one mirror match a day and this is often a result of that. I always check speeds, check other numbers, etc., but still see my team getting beaten down by the AI's EP as if everything is better on that team and I'm running a gear 1 roster.
  • So here's another "data" update for you.

    Went up against an NS team with Mother Talzin lead. Every "possible" attack that could stun my team, stunned my team. 100% of the freakin' time. My EP's mass stun? 2 NS got stunned. Yep, two. So, another team where regardless of the potency/tenacity rates, my team's stun capability AND ability block capability sucks. BUT, the AI stunned my team non-stop the entire match.

    Just curious how many more times I have to provide data to show that your AI freakin' cheats and buffs itself and/or gives itself better odds constantly. Constantly. If only potency and tenacity were worth a darn, that'd be great! Maybe then the 200% tenacity my jedi team has would mean something. Or the 125%+ potency my EP lead team has would do be worthwhile to consider. (You know, something other than just speed?)
  • Nihilus cooldown deduction with drain force has literally nothing to do with potency.
    https://swgoh.gg/u/ionastarbound/
    Discord: Iona Starbound#5299
  • I have no explanation for the problem Potency/Tenacity part, but I can explain the cooldown thing.
    According to Drain Force description: "Deal Special damage to all enemies with a 50% chance (doubled against debuffed enemies) to increase their cooldowns by 1. For each cooldown increased, reduce the cooldown of Annihilate by 1."
    So he gets more characters debuffed, he gets more chances to increase cooldown which speeds up Annihilate cooldown.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Cooldown Reduction is not subject to the Potency/Tenacity check, as stated by the devs.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    1 days worth attacks is not a sample size where any conclusion can be made.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    One thing at a time, can you please spell out both teams fully.

    Was Nest on the other team?
  • Kyno wrote: »
    One thing at a time, can you please spell out both teams fully.

    Was Nest on the other team?

    No Nest on that team.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Cooldown Reduction is not subject to the Potency/Tenacity check, as stated by the devs.

    Okay so that's fine. But then the AI's 50% is 100% of the time because mine is 0% of the time? lol "Well it averages out to 50%..."
  • Went against a JTR team today: JTR, BB8, R2, Thrawn, and GK. The highest tenacity on that team was 57% on Thrawn, then 45% on another, then the rest were 39% or less. Not only did I not stun the whole team, I didn't even stun ONE of them. Thrawn deflected it, okay got it. But no other stuns with my mass stun. Couldn't even get an ability block to land on JTR, regardless of if she'd cleanse it or not. While they did have foresight present on two of them, I couldn't even get debuffs from Vader to land on the others but 1 for two of them. And of course, R2 (even without tenacity down on characters) was doing a better job of stunning my team than EP was. My Sion couldn't even move one time because he was stunned the entire match.

    Second team. Went against another NS team with MT lead. (MT, Assajj, Daka, Talia, Zombie). Threw two mass stuns at them. Stunned 4 one time and only 3 the next time. Granted it is an NC team against EP so it was an easy win, but all the same, still no full team stun. lol Still had a bit of a challenge getting ability block to hit on a couple of them.
  • FailingCrab
    1155 posts Member
    edited September 2018
    Each time EP uses his AoE he has a 70% chance to attempt to stun each character it hits. The minimum resist chance is 15%; for most teams you go up against with a Palp lead the potency/tenacity will be such that 15% will be the resist chance.

    70% chance to attempt to stun which will be successful 85% of the time = 59.5% chance that any one particular toon will be stunned.

    The average number of stuns you should expect to get (providing that nobody has foresight or otherwise evades) is 3.

    Chance of stunning all 5 = 7.5%

    I also want to check re Nihilus because it's not clear from your posts. Nihilus has a 50% chance to increase CDs with Drain Force if it hits a non-debuffed enemy but a 100% chance if it hits a debuffed enemy. So, for example, if your Nihilus is going first because the enemy Vader used his Force Crush first, you'll be using the AoE on a mostly-debuffed squad so should expect 2-3 cooldown reductions on average, whereas the opposing Nihilus, when he gets to go, will be using it on a pretty much fully-debuffed squad therefore expecting 5 CD reductions
    https://swgoh.gg/u/ionastarbound/
    Discord: Iona Starbound#5299
  • you seem to be expecting to land full team stuns frequently, but the chance to stun any one toon is only about 60% (70% to apply, 15% base chance to resist) without factoring in high tenacity. full team stuns should be unusual. i can't say whether it's happening to you more often than it should, but one should really only expect to stun 2-4 most of the time.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    One thing at a time, can you please spell out both teams fully.

    Was Nest on the other team?

    No Nest on that team.

    sorry to say, then you are missing something. there is a reason why the other thrawn goes first.

    track your data for a month, every day every attack. you will start to see the numbers, but if you look at every match and expect to see certain numbers, your not going to.

    it will not always go your way, and it doesnt always go the way of the other side.
  • Each time EP uses his AoE he has a 70% chance to attempt to stun each character it hits. The minimum resist chance is 15%; for most teams you go up against with a Palp lead the potency/tenacity will be such that 15% will be the resist chance.

    70% chance to attempt to stun which will be successful 85% of the time = 59.5% chance that any one particular toon will be stunned.

    The average number of stuns you should expect to get (providing that nobody has foresight or otherwise evades) is 3.

    Chance of stunning all 5 = 7.5%

    I also want to check re Nihilus because it's not clear from your posts. Nihilus has a 50% chance to increase CDs with Drain Force if it hits a non-debuffed enemy but a 100% chance if it hits a debuffed enemy. So, for example, if your Nihilus is going first because the enemy Vader used his Force Crush first, you'll be using the AoE on a mostly-debuffed squad so should expect 2-3 cooldown reductions on average, whereas the opposing Nihilus, when he gets to go, will be using it on a pretty much fully-debuffed squad therefore expecting 5 CD reductions

    Oh I totally understand your math. The problem is, I've had my ENTIRE TEAM get stunned 3 times in one match by the AI's EP. ENTIRE TEAM. THREE TIMES. What's the likelihood of that happening with those statistics? I'm not saying I don't stun an entire team, or stun every "stunnable" AI character. It does happen, but for me it happens about 3 times in a week. Meanwhile, the AI stuns 4-5 members of my team once a match. Almost every single time I do a mirror match. It doesn't matter who it is, what their stats are for tenacity, potency, etc. Let alone the amount of times R2 can stun my whole team or his stuns land more often than mine even if he has far lower potency / tenacity, etc.

    Even going against NS and Old Daka has a "75% chance to stun 1 member for 1 turn" but Old Daka stuns my characters 100% of the times she attacks with her basic. I wish my team had those kinds of odds happening. That's what I've seen in 4 matches against NS in the last week, regardless of potency / tenacity of the NS.

    I'd be fine with the likelihood of what is "supposed to happen" working as equally for me as it does for the AI. But the AI has far better stats than I do, which I keep providing for here. I just want some consistency and I've been watching for EP mass stuns on both sides for a couple months now.
  • So percieved AI advantage is actually the reason for your post...
  • Boov wrote: »
    So percieved AI advantage is actually the reason for your post...

    I've been listening to game changers talk about the uselessness of tenacity for months and months now. They bring out a character who's zeta gives 150% tenacity to all jedi with protection. Tenacity sucks and potency is fairly shaky as well.

    "perceived" AI advantage doesn't help. When the AI is doing things I can't possibly hope that my team will do, then that's fairly significant. But at the same time, if my team has higher tenacity and higher potency, I shouldn't be getting as many debuffs as the team I'm going up against. I shouldn't have to worry about EP's mass stun hitting my whole team if my tenacity is fairly high. As well, I should be able to stun the whole other team if my potency was worth a ****.

    Potency and Tenacity functioning better would help with that AI advantage that we very often see happening. (I have yet to hear anyone give me worthwhile proof that the AI doesn't have better odds and/or boosts.)
  • So, for two days now I've switched to my Bastila jedi team. Bastila is zeta'd. GK, Ezra, Hermit Yoda and GM Yoda.

    I've fought multiple matches against EP teams. Even with over 180% tenacity, my ezra is still getting stunned by EP's mass stun (even went against an EP with a TOTAL of 98% potency). In fact, yesterday's match an EP with about 115% potency stunned both my Gear 12 GK and my Bastila (190 and 180% tenacity) with the very first move he did. I was attacking him and thrawn did his cleanse TM swap and EP set it off. So for two days in a row my team got stunned and/or debuffed.

    Vader's ability block on his basic was hitting a lot, even when they had tenacity up (no debuffs can be applied) and I'm not sure if that's working as intended or not. Yes, jedi and rebels can't resist the "effects" of this attack, but it only has an 80% chance of applying and if they have tenacity up, shouldn't that prevent a debuff as a separate protective buff of its own? Seems kinda strange, but not sure on that one. I was still able to pull off wins, even with all the ability blocks.

    Good luck getting Chewie everyone! Seems this is the new Thrawn event so far. lol
  • How potency and tenacity work has nothing to do with (percieved) AI advantage, wich seems to be your main complaint. What i'm trying to say is that even if they change the mechanic of potency/tenacity, you will probably still have the feeling the AI has an advantage over you (stuns more often, gets stunned less often for example).
    These are two seperate issues.
    ea/cg have stated that there's no AI advantage, i'm inclined to believe them. There's no reason for them to lie about that, nor is there a reason to implement it. It's up to you whether you believe them or not, but it's not going to change because either there is no AI advantage so it can't be removed or they're going through great lenghts to keep it "secret" so it's unlikely they're going to change it. So regardless of whether or not i think your complaint is valid, i think it's highly unlikely they're going to do something with it.
    How potency and tenacity work is pretty simple. tenacity - potency = chance to resist (minimum of 15%). Because of that formula you would have to have significantly higher tenacity in order to be able to noticably resist more often. For good reason (imo) because debuffs are meant to land, otherwise they're completely useless. (Un)fortunately this means that modding for tenacity can almost always be undone by modding for potency, that's why most players consider it useless, wich is a fair assessment imo. But if modding for tenacity wasn't useless, it would be super annoying to deal with, getting resisted all the time without anything you can do about it. That's not something i would enjoy and judging by the hate the dodge meta got for example, most people won't like it.
    As for your examples. 180 tenacity vs 115 potency will result in a 35% chance for the debuff to land, so it's bound to land in some matches. Factoring in the 70% chance to stun, palp isn't going to stun much vs bastila teams (when they've got bonusprotection), but it's also not like he's never going to land a stun.
    Vader's ability block can't be resisted, that means it won't go through the potency/tenacity check at all. So tenacity up won't change anything. When vader uses his basic he attempts to abi block 80% of the time, wich will land 100% of the time on jedi and rebels.
  • Boov wrote: »
    How potency and tenacity work has nothing to do with (percieved) AI advantage, wich seems to be your main complaint. What i'm trying to say is that even if they change the mechanic of potency/tenacity, you will probably still have the feeling the AI has an advantage over you (stuns more often, gets stunned less often for example).
    These are two seperate issues.
    ea/cg have stated that there's no AI advantage, i'm inclined to believe them. There's no reason for them to lie about that, nor is there a reason to implement it. It's up to you whether you believe them or not, but it's not going to change because either there is no AI advantage so it can't be removed or they're going through great lenghts to keep it "secret" so it's unlikely they're going to change it. So regardless of whether or not i think your complaint is valid, i think it's highly unlikely they're going to do something with it.
    How potency and tenacity work is pretty simple. tenacity - potency = chance to resist (minimum of 15%). Because of that formula you would have to have significantly higher tenacity in order to be able to noticably resist more often. For good reason (imo) because debuffs are meant to land, otherwise they're completely useless. (Un)fortunately this means that modding for tenacity can almost always be undone by modding for potency, that's why most players consider it useless, wich is a fair assessment imo. But if modding for tenacity wasn't useless, it would be super annoying to deal with, getting resisted all the time without anything you can do about it. That's not something i would enjoy and judging by the hate the dodge meta got for example, most people won't like it.
    As for your examples. 180 tenacity vs 115 potency will result in a 35% chance for the debuff to land, so it's bound to land in some matches. Factoring in the 70% chance to stun, palp isn't going to stun much vs bastila teams (when they've got bonusprotection), but it's also not like he's never going to land a stun.
    Vader's ability block can't be resisted, that means it won't go through the potency/tenacity check at all. So tenacity up won't change anything. When vader uses his basic he attempts to abi block 80% of the time, wich will land 100% of the time on jedi and rebels.

    That's great. And just like the last guy I'm not arguing your math. I'm arguing the fact that the AI, as an example, with EP as lead will often stun 4-5 members of my team 3 times in ONE match. Even if I can use EP's mass stun 3 times in a match I "might" have it land 3-4 times in a WEEK. I keep dropping examples of that very thing. Even if I have MORE tenacity, more potency, etc., than the other team, I still see disadvantages happening that "shouldn't" to my team. Your "35%" sure happens a lot for the AI. I wish it happened for me a little more. If I use my mass stun 3 times in a match for 5 matches a day, that's 105 uses in a week. In 100ish matches I can stun 4-5 3% of the time? Juxtapose that to the AI that stuns 4-5 in one match?

    Whether it is the same or two separate arguments isn't the point. If my tenacity and potency are useless, then why have them? If my potency is 20-50% more than the AI team's potency, my debuffs should land more. Especially if their tenacity is 30% where my EP team tenacity is 50ish% and my jedi team is 180-200%. (My GK with 190% tenacity keeps getting stunned and debuffed by EP's mass stun and by vader's crushing force.) So if 200% tenacity is useless, then why have it? What good is a zeta on Bastila if tenacity doesn't mean squat because my team still gets debuffed? Does it get debuffed as badly as my EP team in arena? No, but what's the point of all that if there's "still a chance" and that chance happens a lot of the time for the AI?

    They can say the AI doesn't have advantage all they want. Okay, fine. Does that mean the AI isn't giving itself better odds? Can they say without a doubt the AI doesn't give itself better rolls? I keep showing how my teams are getting debuffed like crazy, but it doesn't seem to matter because "well that's just RNG and math" but then why isn't that same horrid RNG and horrid luck prevalent for the AI side of it? Why does 180% tenacity against 100% potency not mean anything because that "35%" happens and the AI rolls in its favor more than it does for me? Is that part of the statistical averages? It collates all the opportunities and players get crap rolls, the AI gets positive rolls and that average means the 35% (while often going to the AI) works out? lol

    I'm frustrated because I see what my team "could" do while it's on defense but it doesn't do while on offense. I like the concept of tenacity and I wish it worked 'better' for my team, but it doesn't seem to very much because, as I keep showing, I keep getting debuffed heavily regardless of what my team's numbers are.
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