Draw in Guild Wars

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Is it wrong that after two draws, the defending units remain in place (albeit broken, but still), and forwards - disappear (although not was completely destroyed).
I offer 3 versions:
1st (I do not like) is to remove both groups after draws;
2nd (in my opinion the best) is to restore health points and protection of both units and return them to duty as if the fight was not;
3rd (also good, but in my opinion not the best) - after a draw, to extend the time of the fight for a few minutes, so that it was possible to complete this fight is a victory or defeat, not a draw.

Replies

  • The first two suggestions are easily abused. Tough team? Start the fight and do litteraly nothing for 5mins and that causes the defender to lose? Or, I'm losing, so i just chill for the rest of the time to get my team back to either try again or use on an easier opponent. More time could work, but i guess i like the idea of using teams on defence that can force you to run out of time.
  • Part of the reason I myself do not like the 1st option, I wrote about it. But you made a mistake - in the 2nd version, it makes no sense to just wait 5 minutes, as all units (and defending and attacking) will be restored again, with a full set of health and protection. And that's part of why I think he's the best.
  • DuneFlint wrote: »
    The first two suggestions are easily abused. Tough team? Start the fight and do litteraly nothing for 5mins and that causes the defender to lose? Or, I'm losing, so i just chill for the rest of the time to get my team back to either try again or use on an easier opponent. More time could work, but i guess i like the idea of using teams on defence that can force you to run out of time.

    Part of the reason I myself do not like the 1st option, I wrote about it. But you made a mistake - in the 2nd version, it makes no sense to just wait 5 minutes, as all units (and defending and attacking) will be restored again, with a full set of health and protection. And that's part of why I think he's the best.
  • I don’t see any reason for a 5 min timer in TW. Extend it to 10
  • I don’t see any reason for a 5 min timer in TW. Extend it to 10

    Here is, already something similar on my proposals. I support, it is possible to expand the timer to 10 minutes - it as a whole, but also a question on a draw too needs to be solved.
  • LukazAbMon wrote: »
    DuneFlint wrote: »
    The first two suggestions are easily abused. Tough team? Start the fight and do litteraly nothing for 5mins and that causes the defender to lose? Or, I'm losing, so i just chill for the rest of the time to get my team back to either try again or use on an easier opponent. More time could work, but i guess i like the idea of using teams on defence that can force you to run out of time.

    Part of the reason I myself do not like the 1st option, I wrote about it. But you made a mistake - in the 2nd version, it makes no sense to just wait 5 minutes, as all units (and defending and attacking) will be restored again, with a full set of health and protection. And that's part of why I think he's the best.

    It makes sense to me. I start out, and either completly underestimated the team so i start to get destroyed, instead of losing my team i idle out and get them back. Or i ha e bad rng and am going to lose but i know my team can beat them, instead of taking 1 or 2 kills and needing a 2nd team to clear them i just idle out and try again.
  • DuneFlint wrote: »
    It makes sense to me. I start out, and either completly underestimated the team so i start to get destroyed, instead of losing my team i idle out and get them back. Or i ha e bad rng and am going to lose but i know my team can beat them, instead of taking 1 or 2 kills and needing a 2nd team to clear them i just idle out and try again.
    Well, about that it would be more efficient to repeat the same fight (as is usually done in raids) I have not thought before. Well then I guess a 3rd option would be better.
  • Waqui
    8544 posts Member
    If you don reach the goal or milestone within the time limit, you are eliminated from the competition.

    If you don't kill all defenders within the time limit you are eliminated from the battlefield.

    I see no problem here. It seems fair to me.
  • Waqui
    8544 posts Member
    LukazAbMon wrote: »
    DuneFlint wrote: »
    The first two suggestions are easily abused. Tough team? Start the fight and do litteraly nothing for 5mins and that causes the defender to lose? Or, I'm losing, so i just chill for the rest of the time to get my team back to either try again or use on an easier opponent. More time could work, but i guess i like the idea of using teams on defence that can force you to run out of time.

    Part of the reason I myself do not like the 1st option, I wrote about it. But you made a mistake - in the 2nd version, it makes no sense to just wait 5 minutes, as all units (and defending and attacking) will be restored again, with a full set of health and protection. And that's part of why I think he's the best.

    Which can easily be abused as DuneFlint pointed out. If you are loosing the battle simply time out, have your team restored and take another shot at it. Repeat until the RNG is in your favour and you win or until you use a better strategy and win.

    If you are loosing, why should you be rewarded with a new attempt? You were beaten. You lost. You shouldn't have any reward for that.
  • Kyno
    31455 posts Moderator
    The timer is part of the challenge, if I can make a team you cant beat in 5 min, why shouldnt I win? Or why shouldnt I be left standing to take on another team?

    If you make a mistake, and I win, why shouldnt I win?

    They designed the TW point system for this exact reason. Clean kills get you the most points, anything else gives you points but opens the door for the other side to win by having more clean kills.

    Anything that removes this point difference, by either removing teams or allowing a reset, would end in more draws for TW, which is why they changed it to the current system to help avoid that.
    LukazAbMon wrote: »
    Part of the reason I myself do not like the 1st option, I wrote about it. But you made a mistake - in the 2nd version, it makes no sense to just wait 5 minutes, as all units (and defending and attacking) will be restored again, with a full set of health and protection. And that's part of why I think he's the best.

    Knowing the best and building the best counter team for the situation is the strategic part of TW. If I go in and can get my team back because I didnt have the right counter team or they were just not built up right (gear/mods) and then someone else can go in and clear them out, why should we get full points? Why should I get my team back? I made the mistake and me/my guild should suffer for that, or the other side should get an advantage from it as they do now.
  • Kyno, of course, it is clear that they have developed this system, but this system is wrong, which is what this topic is about.
    Why is it wrong? Yes, because "Draw" in this system is the same as "Defeat".
    That is why I suggest that we consider various options to correct this.
    This is a fact of error in this system and it is obvious. It is possible to discuss only the solution of this problem, but not to argue about its existence.

  • Kyno wrote: »
    Knowing the best and building the best counter team for the situation is the strategic part of TW. If I go in and can get my team back because I didnt have the right counter team or they were just not built up right (gear/mods) and then someone else can go in and clear them out, why should we get full points? Why should I get my team back? I made the mistake and me/my guild should suffer for that, or the other side should get an advantage from it as they do now.

    What are you talking about? Of course restore points (and not get) only the one who fought. And if the defending squad was already beaten, it will restore points only to the level that was before the fight. That is, it will again become the same "beaten" as it was. It is silly not to understand it, I don't mean that ALL health was surely restored. It's nonsense!

  • LukazAbMon wrote: »
    It is possible to discuss only the solution of this problem, but not to argue about its existence.

    What if I don't think there is a problem in the first place? I should just keep quiet?
  • jhbuchholz wrote: »
    What if I don't think there is a problem in the first place? I should just keep quiet?

    Yes, it would be wiser to remain silent.

  • LukazAbMon wrote: »
    jhbuchholz wrote: »
    What if I don't think there is a problem in the first place? I should just keep quiet?

    Yes, it would be wiser to remain silent.

    And then start my own complaint thread when your fix breaks my TW experience?

    Seems shortsighted to me.
  • Kyno
    31455 posts Moderator
    LukazAbMon wrote: »
    Kyno, of course, it is clear that they have developed this system, but this system is wrong, which is what this topic is about.
    Why is it wrong? Yes, because "Draw" in this system is the same as "Defeat".
    That is why I suggest that we consider various options to correct this.
    This is a fact of error in this system and it is obvious. It is possible to discuss only the solution of this problem, but not to argue about its existence.

    Yes a draw is the same as a defeat. X team was placed in your way on the path to glory, you didnt move them out of your way, that prevents you from getting the glory.

    This is not an error, it is the point.

    The point is to pit your team against another team, if you dont win, you lose. Just like arena. This is just a series of arena battles broken into zones.

    If you cant beat the team, why should you get any benefit?

    You either made a mistake in your team selection, execution, or opponent selection.

    There is also a strategy to this too, where you place tanky hard to beat teams that will time out in the back. This startegy relies on the timer and you running your opponent out of power house teams in the front end.
  • jhbuchholz wrote: »
    And then start my own complaint thread when your fix breaks my TW experience?

    Seems shortsighted to me.
    You have the right to think anything. Your thoughts are your "universe". But when discussing something specific, you need to think about whether to say it at all, and ten times to think about how to say it correctly. But this question is not on the topic, it is philosophy. We've drifted away from the subject.

  • LukazAbMon wrote: »
    jhbuchholz wrote: »
    And then start my own complaint thread when your fix breaks my TW experience?

    Seems shortsighted to me.
    You have the right to think anything. Your thoughts are your "universe". But when discussing something specific, you need to think about whether to say it at all, and ten times to think about how to say it correctly. But this question is not on the topic, it is philosophy. We've drifted away from the subject.

    Back on topic: I vehemently disagree with any "fix" proposed here. I do not think the "system is wrong" or that there is any "problem" to solve. If you can't beat a team within the confines of the rules of the game then you need to reevaluate your strategy. Not change the game.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Yes a draw is the same as a defeat. X team was placed in your way on the path to glory, you didnt move them out of your way, that prevents you from getting the glory.

    This is not an error, it is the point.

    The point is to pit your team against another team, if you dont win, you lose. Just like arena. This is just a series of arena battles broken into zones.

    If you cant beat the team, why should you get any benefit?

    You either made a mistake in your team selection, execution, or opponent selection.

    There is also a strategy to this too, where you place tanky hard to beat teams that will time out in the back. This startegy relies on the timer and you running your opponent out of power house teams in the front end.

    Yes there will be no benefit at all. I offered solutions to the problem, and about the benefit I did not write a word! What benefit could there be? I mean not only his troops, but the enemy is also on his side will have the same position. That's easy to understand.

  • jhbuchholz wrote: »
    Back on topic: I vehemently disagree with any "fix" proposed here. I do not think the "system is wrong" or that there is any "problem" to solve. If you can't beat a team within the confines of the rules of the game then you need to reevaluate your strategy. Not change the game.
    Well done, think as you like, that's your opinion, and I just wrote about it.

  • @OP.

    If each team is a guard to a castle, and you are the invading party, stalemating for a while earns a loss for you. Their objective is not to kill you, its to keep you away from the castle. In that sense, they win and your team is penalised accordingly.
  • swgohfan29 wrote: »
    @OP.

    If each team is a guard to a castle, and you are the invading party, stalemating for a while earns a loss for you. Their objective is not to kill you, its to keep you away from the castle. In that sense, they win and your team is penalised accordingly.

    Well, first, the "draws" are rare, and special changes in the total time it will bring. And secondly, I repeat, these changes will affect not only us, but also the opponents. On both sides.
    And so nor made benefits, nor any special changes in time this will not bring. And only will make "Draw" - "Draw", not "Defeat".
  • On this forum sit alone critics. You'd be better off supporting improvements to the game, offering your options for improvements rather than criticizing what you don't like. If I don't like any topic, I personally don't go into it at all. But the improvement of the game I'm always happy. I do not write that "Draw" is some kind of global problem, and that it needs to be corrected urgently. But I offer at least some options to improve at least the little things. Who doesn't want to play the perfect game that you love?
  • Kyno
    31455 posts Moderator
    edited September 2018
    LukazAbMon wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Yes a draw is the same as a defeat. X team was placed in your way on the path to glory, you didnt move them out of your way, that prevents you from getting the glory.

    This is not an error, it is the point.

    The point is to pit your team against another team, if you dont win, you lose. Just like arena. This is just a series of arena battles broken into zones.

    If you cant beat the team, why should you get any benefit?

    You either made a mistake in your team selection, execution, or opponent selection.

    There is also a strategy to this too, where you place tanky hard to beat teams that will time out in the back. This startegy relies on the timer and you running your opponent out of power house teams in the front end.

    Yes there will be no benefit at all. I offered solutions to the problem, and about the benefit I did not write a word! What benefit could there be? I mean not only his troops, but the enemy is also on his side will have the same position. That's easy to understand.

    Maybe I'm misunderstanding.
    LukazAbMon wrote: »
    Is it wrong that after two draws, the defending units remain in place (albeit broken, but still), and forwards - disappear (although not was completely destroyed).
    I offer 3 versions:
    1st (I do not like) is to remove both groups after draws;
    2nd (in my opinion the best) is to restore health points and protection of both units and return them to duty as if the fight was not;
    3rd (also good, but in my opinion not the best) - after a draw, to extend the time of the fight for a few minutes, so that it was possible to complete this fight is a victory or defeat, not a draw.

    Here is what I see:
    1st suggestion - 2 teams go in, attacker cannot beat all 5 toons, but also will not be defeated in 5 mins.

    This would end with both the attacking and defensive team being removed and I guess no points awarded.
    - I lose a chance for points but get the advantage of not having to actually beat the team to get past them. If this was done and my guild completes the zone we get points for clearing the zone, even though we didnt.

    2nd suggestion - 2 teams go in, attacker cannot beat all 5 toons, but also will not be defeated in 5 mins.

    This would end with both teams being restored, as if the battle never happened, no points awarded.
    - I couldn't win, but lose nothing. I get the advantage of basically playing with a team until I win for full points. The defense gets nothing for not letting me win, which is also an advantage for me. At any point in a match if I'm not going to win. I just let it time out to a draw and attack again, this is an advantage because i get to play only the match with the best RNG for me.

    3rd suggestion - 2 teams go in, attacker cannot beat all 5 toons, but also will not be defeated in 5 mins
    This would lead to an endless timer

    - You cant win within the time allotted for the game mode, so you get the advantage of extra time. The defense now loses the advantage of "getting points" that you couldn't beat, because you would lose points in this scenario in the current scheme.

    Any of the changes you are suggesting, dont fix a problem as much as they give even more advantage to the offensive guild. In all likelihood ending in more TW ties, due to less of the little point differences per match.

    Part of the issue with any changes to the "draw mechanism" is that any player can force this to happen. This basically gives them an "out" to take should the match not go the way they want. This negates part of the points system which is what I keep referring to as a benefit.
    Post edited by Kyno on
  • It seems you're arguing semantics about draws and defeats. Perhaps they should just call time outs defeats instead of draws and it would solve the problem too. No more draws only victory or defeat
  • I would agree with the op that draws are a problem if it was in arena. In tw however i think it’s one of the differences. The team you are using on defense is not usable on offense. It’s only purpose is to defend. Which make, as other said, draws an acceptable result imo. They prevented you from moving forward which was their sole purpose. You get the advantage to 1. Choose who to use against who and 2. Actually play against an ai. If you can’t win, it should have a cost.

    In arena draws are basically wins for the defending team that is also the attacking team, which i really don’t like at all, but it is what it is and i basically dislike everything about that game’s arena system anyway^^ so one more thing won’t make a difference.
  • Waqui
    8544 posts Member
    LukazAbMon wrote: »
    Kyno, of course, it is clear that they have developed this system, but this system is wrong, which is what this topic is about.
    Why is it wrong? Yes, because "Draw" in this system is the same as "Defeat".

    If you don't wipe out the defending team, the defenses hold and your attack fails. You can always attack with another team but the one you already used for an attack failed should not have another go - it already fought and lost.

    Both a draw and a defeat is a victory for the defending team. Seen from the defending point of view: Why shouldn't it be treated equally? The defending team did its job in either case.

    Again:
    There is no problem. Your suggestions can (and will) be abused.

  • Waqui
    8544 posts Member
    edited September 2018
    LukazAbMon wrote: »
    This is a fact of error in this system and it is obvious. It is possible to discuss only the solution of this problem, but not to argue about its existence.

    You may want it to be designed differently, and that's fine, but there is no error.

    You ask that we discuss your suggestions (I refuse to call them solutions, since there is no problem), yet still you don't comment on the obvious flaws that I and others have pointed out in your suggestions. Flaws that can and will be abused. Abuse, that will make it far easier to win an attack and far more difficult to hold a defense. We will be back to both teams clearing the whole board in every territory war. Where's the fun and challenge in that?
  • Waqui
    8544 posts Member
    LukazAbMon wrote: »
    On this forum sit alone critics. You'd be better off supporting improvements to the game, offering your options for improvements rather than criticizing what you don't like. If I don't like any topic, I personally don't go into it at all.

    I will gladly support improvements to the game. However, your suggestions are not improvements in my oppinion.
    I don't like your suggestions. I would rather not have them implemented in the game. Of course I discuss and criticize them and point out the flaws. Now, if you really want changes, then I'd suggest that you realize, the flaws of your suggestions and think of a way to 'repair' those flaws. Alter your suggestions. You may end up with a good suggestion that actually could be an improvement and could gain support from me and others.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Here is what I see:
    1st suggestion - 2 teams go in, attacker cannot beat all 5 toons, but also will not be defeated in 5 mins.

    This would end with both the attacking and defensive team being removed and I guess no points awarded.
    - I lose a chance for points but get the advantage of not having to actually beat the team to get past them. If this was done and my guild completes the zone we get points for clearing the zone, even though we didnt.

    2nd suggestion - 2 teams go in, attacker cannot beat all 5 toons, but also will not be defeated in 5 mins.

    This would end with both teams being restored, as if the battle never happened, no points awarded.
    - I couldn't win, but lose nothing. I get the advantage of basically playing with a team until I win for full points. The defense gets nothing for not letting me win, which is also an advantage for me. At any point in a match if I'm not going to win. I just let it time out to a draw and attack again, this is an advantage because i get to play only the match with the best RNG for me.

    3rd suggestion - 2 teams go in, attacker cannot beat all 5 toons, but also will not be defeated in 5 mins
    This would lead to an endless timer

    - You cant win within the time allotted for the game mode, so you get the advantage of extra time. The defense now loses the advantage of "getting points" that you couldn't beat, because you would lose points in this scenario in the current scheme.

    Any of the changes you are suggesting, dont fix a problem as much as they give even more advantage to the offensive guild. In all likelihood ending in more TW ties, due to less of the little point differences per match.

    Part of the issue with any changes to the "draw mechanism" is that any player can force this to happen. This basically gives them an "out" to take should the match not go the way they want. This negates part of the points system which is what I keep referring to as a benefit.
    About 1st and 2nd suggestions we now have figured out that they are worse than 3rd. But what about the 1st offer I wrote about this initially, but the 2nd proposal is worse only because it would be possible to play till the best times. And I also wrote about it in one of my answers. This will be the only way, because no points after recovery, no one will get - it is also easy to understand, and it should be taken into account by the developers. 3-its proposal will not lead to an endless timer-the timer will be replenished only 1 time. Well, it is quite easy to understand - you create the impression of an infantile-thinking person. Although I respect you as a moderator, but do not need to interfere in every post with ill-conceived claims.

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