Nightsister Zombie Rework: Begone Paper, Hello Fat [MEGA]

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    Congratulations fools... Always if someone will be smarter than you, you will spoil the game? It's not our fault that players are smarter than you, dear CG... You take joy from the game...
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    "For those players that had invested in Zombie (Tanky or Fat Zombie) and invest in Undying Sacrifice, they may see some increased difficulty in setting up the perfect attempt in Phase 3, but should see their scores improve in Phase 4."

    If this is true, I think this is fair.

    Aham its oke and why we dont speak about Bastila??? Why she working well on 3 star?
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    Pan2218 wrote: »
    DyloBin wrote: »
    Pan2218 wrote: »
    DyloBin wrote: »
    Pan2218 wrote: »
    DyloBin wrote: »
    Chewy88 wrote: »
    DyloBin wrote: »
    A "nerf" implies a character (or in this case, as some are saying, faction) is all-around worse in all areas. I don't see that here.

    If your G7/G8 Zombie isn't capable of taking a hit or two and getting a turn afterwards, that sounds like a poor modding issue to me. So, this kit change doesn't remove Paper Zombie as a viable option. It just requires you to invest in mods to at least increase her speed. Which you probably should have been doing to begin with.

    This change, however, does increase the value of a stronger Zombie (particularly in Arena) while leaving a well-modded Paper Zombie relatively unchanged. In other words, it simply makes a higher gear Zombie better in most cases than a low gear Zombie. Which is the entire point of the rework.

    It doesn’t make the higher gear any better it only makes the lower levels worse. This team won’t be arena viable with this change and won’t make them any more effective in any other areas of the game this will just make zombie and ns less effective in the raid. And a nerf isn’t necessarily to one toon it can be to an entire faction or rewards or anything that takes the punch away from the players side by a developer. That is why this is a #NERF

    I'm gonna need you to elaborate, Chewy.

    In what universe does this make a low gear Zombie worse if you mod her correctly? I can see how it makes a Zombie with literally no investment at all worse, but if that's the Zombie you were using you don't deserve to be succeeding with it. Period.

    And this definitely increases the value of a stronger Zombie. Sacrificial plays to revive other Nightsisters when your taunt has been removed is a net gain.

    It only helps in PVP not the P.O.S. raid that they made & named NS as the prevalent team for guilds to use as they have specific added bonuses. This make the entire team basically useless in the rais now they have made terrible Changes to Acolyte, since Zombie now gives everybody health up, it will be harder to kill off your Sisters. Using MT lead if any NS uses a basic calls a dead sister to assist. They have bonuses when they are revived in this fashion specifically. This is a hindrance to that strategy in any battle. I do not use Paper Zombie but can say that once I got her to G9 I do not want to take her any higher in raid because of bonus drop offs. Also if she is reviving everybody to this means nobody stays dead to assist making Ventress lose TONS of offensive power. If this game is truly one of strategy why would they take away the strategies that they put in place? What a bunch of **** & CG can ban me of they want. I'm tired of everytime I farm toons for that F****** raid, they ruin them.

    She revives other Nightsisters a maximum of two times (in total, not for each NS) and each one of those deaths is worth two deaths for Ventress. Literally turning one death into two deaths. That's a double return on investment. And after that, they will die like normal to funnel Talzin and Ventress. And that's only a mechanic that matters if you do decide to up Zombie to G10 or higher. If you keep her at G9, where you currently have her, you should see absolutely no change of note to your playing.

    Not true at all! Trayas Countdown to enrage will have been triggered after all of those revives & unwanted health from Zombie. Nobody asked for that garbage, CG knows that this will mess everybody up as your sisters cannot die. Man I've been working on NS for quite some time, this is not good. They set the limit for speed increase or decrease to 100. It moves in increments of 50. Not only are there too many thing to work in the raid, now you have to really have to have her hitting every other turn, giving health to all sisters. The kind of speed needed for this can only be attained via 6dot mods, so not only did they find away to implement those in there, 6 dot mods can only be placed on g12 toons. Anyway they have effectively ruined NS in that abhorrent raid & set me back months!

    If you don't want to heal you Nightsisters, don't use her Feed ability. This isn't that complicated. And if Traya is hitting enrage that quickly for you, your speed on all your Nightsisters isnt where it needs to be.

    If you keep her at G9 NOTHING SHOULD CHANGE AT ALL. Not unless you put no effort into her mods.

    If you bump her to G10 to use her new Unique ability, you probably want the benefits in P4 and don't use Nightsisters for P3 anyway.

    I have 5 dot lvl15 soeed mods on her. I'm sorry, but you're very much wrong. Also Daka's Zeta helps keep the TM down in phase 3 & especially in phase 4. No...I'm sorry, but your wrong about the mechanics of it.

    Explain to me how you think these changes will affect your G9 Zombie. Because I run a G8 Zombie I can't even fathom her dying before taking a turn after surviving hits until Enrage starts.

    And if you want to keep Old Daka's zeta, keep it. No one is stopping you...
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    Ariella wrote: »
    @CG_TopHat
    Fixed:-

    Unlocks at Gear Level 10
    Unique: Undying Sacrifice
    Base: Nightsister Zombie can revive after being defeated at -100% Speed from Endless Horde. The first 2 times another Nightsister ally is defeated by an enemy attack, they are revived, recover 15% of Nightsister Zombie's Max Health and Nightsister Zombie is defeated.

    While Zombie is active, whenever a Nightsister ally dies, other NS allies recover 15% of Zombie’s Max Health

    -OR-

    While Zombie is active, whenever a Nightsister ally dies, a random NS ally has their cool downs reduced by 1

    (Can stack with existing cool down reduction mechanics)

    When Nightsister Zombie is defeated by this effect, she loses all Protection, dispels all negative Speed effects from Endless Horde and revives with 50% Turn Meter. This effect does not trigger Endless Horde's Speed reduction.
    Upgrade 1: +10% Heal
    Upgrade 2: +10% Heal
    Upgrade 3: +10% Heal
    Upgrade 4: +10% Heal
    Upgrade 5: +10% Heal
    Upgrade 6: +10% Heal
    Upgrade 7: +25% Heal
    Final Text: Nightsister Zombie can revive after being defeated at -100% Speed from Endless Horde. The first 2 times another Nightsister ally is defeated by an enemy attack, they are revived, recover 100% of Nightsister Zombie's Max Health and Nightsister Zombie is defeated.
    When Nightsister Zombie is defeated by this effect, she loses all Protection, dispels all negative Speed effects from Endless Horde and revives with 50% Turn Meter. This effect does not trigger Endless Horde's Speed reduction.

    That's so much better!
  • NDSnyder
    174 posts Member
    edited September 2018
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    I Dunn why people are complaining... the rework even though a bit complicated is great. I used Zombie at G12 all the time, and it does not break the NS. Well done devs, happy you found a way around paper zombie.

    Edited for cursing. - EA_Cian
    Post edited by EA_Cian on
  • Bartek
    116 posts Member
    edited September 2018
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    Looks like a heavy nerf for p3 and p4. Why are you doing this? First you rendered Acolyte half-useless (no double shot - no going through foresight) and now this. And all because of your lack of imagination while introducing NS rework. This zombie mechanics is so overdone. At some point you will become victim of your own "cleverness" because eventually somebody will find the way to use this new overcomplicated zombie to his advantage. Wonder what will you do then.
    Oh. Also you simply giving a finger to those people who put up a descent NS team for hSTR only. Daka's zeta refund? What about 4xG12,5 and 4 remaining zetas? Following your own words: “Respect my investment.” So we need to act.
    Well... act then. Refund all of it. But of course you won't.
  • Waqui
    8802 posts Member
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    Regarding the wording of Endless Horde:

    "...These effects are neither buffs nor debuffs...."

    The wording itself is not confusing. However, the inconsistent use of this wording is confusing. Using the wording here but not for other similar effects (f.ex. Asajj' unique, Old Daka's unique) indicates, that the effect work in different ways, when in fact they don't. All are stacking alteration of the characters stacks. All are neither buffs nor debuffs.

    I suggest to either remove the wording in this case or add the same wording to all other abilities with similar effects.

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    For a toon released 11 months, this a bit disappointing especially since I don’t really see the problem.
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    I want my gear for all Nightsisters back. You ruin a good team. Oh, it's no longer good, because Jedis and boundys are strong. I don't have a Paper Zombie.
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    Well done CG, great rework!
  • MCThr33pio
    275 posts Member
    edited September 2018
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    Whew - this is going to be an ... interesting ... change.

    I'm just going to have to wait and see how this works for myself, so I'll reserve judgement, but if this was all about Ventress getting too much of a boost from Zombie dying all the time it seems like the simplest solution would have been to cap the stacks Ventress got from her.

    Anyway, time to dump those giant health mods on Zombie, I guess.
    Post edited by MCThr33pio on
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    Gyuc wrote: »
    "For those players that had invested in Zombie (Tanky or Fat Zombie) and invest in Undying Sacrifice, they may see some increased difficulty in setting up the perfect attempt in Phase 3, but should see their scores improve in Phase 4."

    If this is true, I think this is fair.

    Aham its oke and why we dont speak about Bastila??? Why she working well on 3 star?

    Because stars have never been important for a utility character?
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    Can we have Asajj's Zetas back? :)
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    Daemoe wrote: »
    Can we have Asajj's Zetas back? :)

    How about just give us all of the gear & everything. Including every single crystal, credit, & dollar used on NS. Roll them back to Marquee state & be done with it. They are no longer effective in STR & CG is making them a lesser presence in something that was built around them. If they give us that stiff back & let us decide what to do then I'm good. But doing this to a faction that they said to farm & then taking it away a year later after all of our effort is behavior that should not be tolerated or accepted. If they have that much of a problem, they need to fix that garbage raid! Not ruin everybody & make them start over.
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    Since you decided to kill Death Storm are we gonna get MT's zetas refunded?
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    I think Troopers still are the best team to take down NS.
    Troopers did excel against paper zombie teams because the fast death of an opponent powered up their turn meter and offence. So facing a stronger zombie team definitely sets them back.
    No doubt against a stronger zombie, this swings things a little bit more in favour of NS. But I think Troopers will remain pretty viable... Plague is dealt with by a Shoretrooper heal, the biggest risk is probably an early Trooper death from the MT Spirit Blade zerg, but they have the tools to protect themselves from this on Offence.
    Once they get that first enemy death in, it's very hard for NS to come back from.
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    Thank god I didn’t waste two zetas on Daka and talzin lol. But I agree can I undo my rampage zeta Mr. Dev. Looks like another stun gun for zombie get to g9. Sure need a lot of them and carbanti. Can you make challenge gear useful Mr. Dev. I have thousands of them. Maybe a combine gear option. I get most of my gear from the shard shop xD.
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    Since you decided to kill Death Storm are we gonna get MT's zetas refunded?

    It's still viable.
    They kill NS in p4.
    So Ventress zeta leader in raid sith is useless.

    Personally, I'm very disappointed with this "rework" (like the other Acolyte's "rework") cause I have geared(zetad/omega,ecc) certain characters to be able to use in certain aspects of the game,
    aspects that made me enjoy playing this game.
    And now I find myself with a useless team for what was its purpose.
    But I know that there is nothing to do

    I'll continue to play this game with less fun.
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    @CG_TopHat nerfing nightsisters AGAIN? Are you serious? Didn't you guys learn the last time you ****** up the nightsisters? Seriously, what's wrong with you guys?
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    Gimpyviper wrote: »
    Man. This is really, really frustrating. I’ve been working on my NS for months to run in P3 of Sith Raid. I just put the three needed zetas on my characters yesterday and now I probably will not be able to run the P3 team. I’ve never complained on forums, but I am pretty upset.

    That does suck but this rework has been coming for a long time now. And it's not like NS faction will suck they just won't be able to solo DN in P4 anymore.

    Which is why it is happening. The main and only reason.

    Yeah, right. Not because a state of a low gear zombie is unacceptable by game philosophy or anything. Just because the developers want to nerf nightsisters.

    Look, man, you seem upset, but this change basically brought a new zombie which doesn't work as well as the last zombie. Zombie was an error, development wise, which was fixed. Nightsisters doing good in STR was not a problem, but their performance took a beating when the zombie error was fixed. There isn't really another way to fix zombie - anything less would have been a nerf both to STR and to the character as a whole, so they buffed the character as a whole while removing one of the exploits in STR.
  • Ariella
    219 posts Member
    edited September 2018
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    Mano wrote: »
    CG wouldn't Face Such a Backlash if they were Considering giving back all the NS Zetas instead of just the DAka one..Let the Players decide for themselves if the Zeta is Good to invest or not..The New Changes was needed and u have worked so hard on the new mechanics and which of course seem very good..it would be wise to give back all the Ns Zetas and let the Players do what they want..I wouldn't Have Zetad my NS if it wasnt for HSTR
    I don't want my zetas back, I want CG to propose better changes. In Old Ben's words, this could be considered a nerf "from a certain point of view". Players who've tirelessly built up a Sith P3 team are really hurt by this.

    Sith P4
    Players who've been striving for perfection in P4 don't get much from it, and here's why:-
    The heal is like, yeah on face value, an extra heal can really help us keep that TM train rolling. But without wanting to sound totally ungrateful, the heal isn't a particularly great one, relative to what the others offer. Take Daka, who heals everyone to half her max health. Now, since a Zeta Daka's health stacks exceptionally high as the raid wears on, by the time you've on 50 stacks of bonds, that keeps you in the game.
    20% of Zombie's max health may barely make a difference with bonds at that level, and my fear is that even at relatively low stacks of around 10-20 bonds it may not be enough to restore NS to max health and thus keep the TM train rolling.
    I will caveat my concern/criticism here by saying it's tough to truly know the impact of this heal without real world testing i.e. decent mods, health stacking on Zombie and practise with high stacks.
    What I will say is, I'm happy with a mechanic that allows me to keep that turn meter train rolling for longer, to offset the repeated deaths from Zombie - I'm just sceptical that this heal will be such a big game changer in that regard.
    The fact that zombie takes 2 deaths for the team makes little to no difference in this phase. If she could take 2 annihilates for the team then believe me in the context of the Sith raid I'd be absolutely over the moon at this point! But that would probably be extremely dis-satisfactory in PVP.


    Sith P3
    Players have worked hard in recent months to hone their NS teams to score well in Sith P3. This isn't easy to setup, and it's extremely RNG dependent how well you score. You can get 5m on a good run, 15m on an exceptional run.
    Those really high scores are mainly achieved by keeping the team alive post-enrage, and that's totally RNG dependent because if Traya Isolates Daka on the first post enrage turn, it's all over.
    Now, setting up this team means you need to get 2 of your NS dead. It can't be Asajj or Daka.
    So it'll be MT and 1 other, either Spirit or Initiate.
    Post update, you need to have any non-Zombie NS die twice before the deaths stick, so to say.
    This will mean it'll add a number of turns to the run. The more turns it takes to get them 2 dead, the less damage you do. And there's a gulf between the damage you can do if you line it up in 2 turns or if you line it up in 5, it could be worth millions.
    So this is absolutely a nerf in that context... and all because of the daft idea that Zombie takes 2 deaths for the team.

    What I find surreal about that addition is that in almost every single scenario (basically apart from Annihilates or Executions), Nightsisters dying is good for the team. Talia dying is good. MT dying is good. Spirit dying is good. Initiate dying is good. Asajj and Daka both grow every more stronger and powerful the more this happens. So it's not wanted or needed that Zombie takes those deaths for the team... they're all good.

    This very addition alone leaves me sceptical about the intentions of this change.
    Either:
    CG are happy to nerf the NS team - and by nerf - I want to add, I and I think most NS players are fully accepting of the removal of the paper zombie. But we're talking about the overall efficacy of the faction here, and paper zombie changes aside, this Undying Sacrifice equals a nerf.
    Or
    They just don't get the mechanics well enough to have made an informed decision. Both are depressing.
    Post edited by Ariella on
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    1- Why refund Daka zeta but not Asajj's Zeta's?
    2- Why not just revert Zombies to g4? that is exactly what players asked for.
    3- Can someone explain to me how something can by META yet at the same time not be a dominant team?
    4- How did you "We left Zombie’s constant taunting and reviving intact" but also you "If Zombie has two negative stacks she can not be revived" Was it left alone or was it changed?
    5- Why is there no mention of how the -100 speed no revive will KILL THE P3 Damage TEAM?
    6- what are the Future Nerfs based on the logic better should always be better logic?
    When is Thrawn kit change because ZThrawn kills himself now in arena vs Traya while normal Thrawn is better vs Traya?
    When is Magma trooper kit change because magma PUNISHES ENEMIES WITH A Zeta DN, normal DN is better Vs Magma teams.

    In more detail:
    1) Tophat claims this in paragraph 1 of this post the point of this fix is to prevent paper zombie from causing ASAJJ VENTRESS to deal massive damage. Then goes on to say later As a final note, per our previous communications, we will be removing the Old Daka Zeta from all players that have her Zeta’d. We are aiming to refund the Old Daka Zeta from all players that have her Zeta’d in the next update, but we will confirm in patch notes when it goes live.It seems Asajj is the Zeta impacted by the change to Zombie not Daka Zeta.
    Why refund Daka zeta but not Asajj's Zeta's? Typo Maybe?

    2) TopHat writes "But over time, we’ve gotten more and more requests to do something about Zombie. “Reset my Zombie.” “Fix Zombie.” “Respect my investment.” So we need to act". The changes specifically preventing MT and initiate from dying in P3 do not do anywhere close to what players asked for "reset my zombie" or "respect my investment". No one asked for MT or Initiate to not die or for Zombie to not revive after 2 deaths. Why was this chosen over what players actually asked for a revert of gear?

    3) They claim that NS is going to return to the META (Most Effective Tactic Available), although not to previous dominance. If its not dominant it by definition has not returned to the META. Can someone explain to me how something can by META yet at the same time not be a dominant team?


    4) Revives left alone or changed? The amount of double talk makes understanding the Dev post very difficult . One line says we left zombies constant taunting and reviving intact... the next line says except she can not be revived. Either you left it alone or you altered it? what happened?

    5) MT P3 was a legit p3 NON-PAPER zombie team that was NERFED on the front setting it up (getting MT and Initiate to die) and on the back end by zombie not reviving at the end of the run. you mention the more difficult front but do not mention the back end where you have killed this team off by preventing revive, you know the revive that was left unchanged that actually changed..

    6) This isnt a question more of an observation in Paragraph 2 Top hat says the core rule of the game is a higher level character should always be better in terms of outcome. This analysis of the core-strategy is wrong at it's own core. Plenty of characters function better at lower non maxed levels, Thrawn without a zeta is better than Thrawn with a Zeta Traya teams, R2 without cleanse is better than R2 with Zeta Vs EP STH without Omega taunts longer than with Omega, Sith Trooper without Omega deals actual Dmg to protection which is good vs sith, with Omega sith trooper damages health which is healed up almost instantly vs sith, 5's omega makes it harder to solo Rancor in 2015 with 5's because the extra tap that you don't need to apply speed down actually speeds up the Rancor, Old Ben 3* better than 7* The list can go on for almost every unit theres a scenario where better is worse and worse is better. In my opinion this is a weak reason to need to change a kit, but if so then just about ANY TOON CAN BE NERFED using this logic at any point in time.

    Whats next Thrawn whole kit is nerfed in November because Thrawn kills himself now by constantly countering out of turn vs Traya in arena? If enough people complain their Thrawn kills himself would you consider changing his kit?

    Why cant we just be honest and say NS are too good for the fragile sith raid we are nerfing them. That honesty would go a long way.
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    Yep this sucks. I want my Zetas back on nightsisters. You guys keep nerfing the sith raid. Guild already hates it now this is gonna break it. Don't know who is doing worst now MSF or Swgoh. Been with my guild since 2016. We keep losing old members cause of the sith raid. So now my only choice is to leave my guild to get Traya because you keep nerfing stuff. Leave it be. You designed it. Your not making it any easier. 1 character out the many useless characters that is a little stronger without throwing money at it is not that bad. Lol hey Jtr is still strong let's nerf her again for the raid too! Lol think your taking a big step back. But hey that's just me and my guild.
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    Are the 2 revives per character per battle or per encounter? Do they reset each wave in TB or with each attack in TW?
  • UdalCuain
    5033 posts Member
    edited September 2018
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    Rimbol wrote: »
    Are the 2 revives per character per battle or per encounter? Do they reset each wave in TB or with each attack in TW?

    Not sure about the second part but multiple times in this thread they've stated it's two revives total, not per character.
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    Rimbol wrote: »
    Are the 2 revives per character per battle or per encounter? Do they reset each wave in TB or with each attack in TW?

    I asked this, tagging TopHat snd Crumb, haven't seen an answer...
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    Citizen_J wrote: »
    CG, what happens in the sith raid when zombie is at -100% speed, thrawn swaps TM and zombie pops unbreakable will?

    U continue with crap damage until enrage happens along with an aoe
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    Hmmm....

    So why not just make the lvl 8 of Endless Horde activate at g12??

    Would Zombie die less, leading to lower power up of Assajj - yes - CG objective achieved

    Would people get that change better? - yes - community not 100% happy, but would understand it better and probably accept it...

    Would your project manager look like they are not doing their job squeezing last cent out of the gaming community by panic farming other factions like ... hmm.. bounty hunters (?) and spending loads of cash doing so in order to beat the raid? - no

    LOL2
    *

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    Hafglop wrote: »
    Gimpyviper wrote: »
    Man. This is really, really frustrating. I’ve been working on my NS for months to run in P3 of Sith Raid. I just put the three needed zetas on my characters yesterday and now I probably will not be able to run the P3 team. I’ve never complained on forums, but I am pretty upset.

    That does suck but this rework has been coming for a long time now. And it's not like NS faction will suck they just won't be able to solo DN in P4 anymore.

    Which is why it is happening. The main and only reason.

    Yeah, right. Not because a state of a low gear zombie is unacceptable by game philosophy or anything. Just because the developers want to nerf nightsisters.

    Look, man, you seem upset, but this change basically brought a new zombie which doesn't work as well as the last zombie. Zombie was an error, development wise, which was fixed. Nightsisters doing good in STR was not a problem, but their performance took a beating when the zombie error was fixed. There isn't really another way to fix zombie - anything less would have been a nerf both to STR and to the character as a whole, so they buffed the character as a whole while removing one of the exploits in STR.

    They removed more than one "exploit" & they are the ones who created the Raid with Night Sisters as they Key team for the thing a year ago! Now that people have reached the level and ready for it, they are changing not one toon, the whole faction is affected. The only good way to use Zombie is in the Arena. & when you do use her, YES every Night Sister Zeta, Lead or Unique (except Initiate) is worthless. This is kick in the balls & it's going to take some time to get over. It is clear that CG doesn't care about the largest portion of their clientele. Even after the outcry a couple of months ago, they only care that the people who spend the most are upset about their raid scores. There are far more ridiculous toons that screw things up than a Zombie, which doesn't die (wait...that's novel) every team that has been put up on youtube by people showing what they have accomplished, has been ripped apart. Punishing the public for achievement rather than rewarding. This has become a ritual that is unbecoming of any corporation & I am having serious thoughts of walking away after everything. It's not just one time, & I am beside myself with this
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    Hafglop wrote: »
    Gimpyviper wrote: »
    Man. This is really, really frustrating. I’ve been working on my NS for months to run in P3 of Sith Raid. I just put the three needed zetas on my characters yesterday and now I probably will not be able to run the P3 team. I’ve never complained on forums, but I am pretty upset.

    That does suck but this rework has been coming for a long time now. And it's not like NS faction will suck they just won't be able to solo DN in P4 anymore.

    Which is why it is happening. The main and only reason.

    Yeah, right. Not because a state of a low gear zombie is unacceptable by game philosophy or anything. Just because the developers want to nerf nightsisters.

    Look, man, you seem upset, but this change basically brought a new zombie which doesn't work as well as the last zombie. Zombie was an error, development wise, which was fixed. Nightsisters doing good in STR was not a problem, but their performance took a beating when the zombie error was fixed. There isn't really another way to fix zombie - anything less would have been a nerf both to STR and to the character as a whole, so they buffed the character as a whole while removing one of the exploits in STR.

    How is the 2x revive **** NOT a direct counter to P3 tactic. All the zombie rework stuff came intentionally with NS nerf under the hood. I mean, how can they sell BH better than nerf the best P3/P4 Team? Guess all have to switch to Chex or AURA SING now... ridiculous...
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