Gaining/taking a turn vs. gaining 100% turn meter.

Waqui
5848 posts Member
I noticed one of your smaller changes in the recent update:

"Boba Fett's contract description has been updated to take a bonus turn instead of gain 100% Turn Meter."

I belive the intention is to create a more consistent use of terms in the description of abilities. I appreciate the intent, but the result of your effort is actually the exact opposite.

The terms "gains 100% turn meter" and "takes/gains a bonus turn" both describe the exact same behaviour in the game. A character gains full turn meter after which the usual mechanics f.ex. coin flips in case of turn meter ties and such take place.

Before the update only 1 character used the term "takes a bonus turn" - Han Solo - while 12 characters used the term "gains 100% turn meter". After the update, 2 characters use the term "gains/takes a bonus turn":
  • Han Solo
  • Boba Fett

while 11 characters use the term "gains 100% turnmeter":
  • B2
  • JKA
  • Biggs
  • Bistan
  • CLS
  • Sion
  • Vader
  • FOO
  • Jyn
  • Princess Leia (actually: Gains double of 50% turn meter)
  • Teebo

Hence instead of creating a consistent use of terms the update created more inconsistency and more confusion than before. If you really want to have a consistent use of terms and avoid further confusion, you should change the descriptions of Han's and Boba Fett's abilities to match the 11 other characters. That description is precise. It describes exactly what happens - a 100% turn meter gain. It also describes why the behaviour can be prevented by f.ex. daze or shock. It cannot be made any more clear to the player, what happens.

The term "takes/gains a bonus turn" is an abomination. It doesn't help the player understand, what happens. It doesn't explain why it can be prevented by daze/shock. It creates confusion. Any use of that term should be removed.

Replies

  • Has someone confirmed that Boba can be prevented from his payout by daze/shock?

    Kinda hard to test Han as you can't daze him before he "shoots first".
  • Waqui
    5848 posts Member
    edited September 2018
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    Has someone confirmed that Boba can be prevented from his payout by daze/shock?

    Kinda hard to test Han as you can't daze him before he "shoots first".

    If Boba's turn gain cannot be prevented, then it's even more of an abomination. "Gaining/taking a turn" has been defined as gaining 100% turn meter and nothing else. It has not been defined as a 100% turn meter gain which cannot be prevented.
  • Waqui wrote: »
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    Has someone confirmed that Boba can be prevented from his payout by daze/shock?

    Kinda hard to test Han as you can't daze him before he "shoots first".

    If Boba's turn gain cannot be prevented, then it's even more of an abomination. "Gaining/taking a turn" has been defined as gaining 100% turn meter and nothing else. It has not been defined as a 100% turn meter gain which cannot be prevented.

    by who ?
  • Waqui
    5848 posts Member
    Boov wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    Has someone confirmed that Boba can be prevented from his payout by daze/shock?

    Kinda hard to test Han as you can't daze him before he "shoots first".

    If Boba's turn gain cannot be prevented, then it's even more of an abomination. "Gaining/taking a turn" has been defined as gaining 100% turn meter and nothing else. It has not been defined as a 100% turn meter gain which cannot be prevented.

    by who ?

    According to Kyno, that's the definition. He has stated it several times in several discussions of the matter. No idea, what his source is, but he has stated it pretty persistently, that taking a turn simply means gaining 100% turn meter.
  • Why does your list not include GMY-post rework?

    His Masterstroke ability very clearly states (just like Boba Fett) - "Grandmaster Yoda gains an immediate bonus turn as long as there is one living Jedi ally"

    This is not subject to coin flip. He just goes again.
  • Waqui
    5848 posts Member
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    Why does your list not include GMY-post rework?

    His Masterstroke ability very clearly states (just like Boba Fett) - "Grandmaster Yoda gains an immediate bonus turn as long as there is one living Jedi ally"

    This is not subject to coin flip. He just goes again.

    GMY's behaviour is different, since - as you correctly mentioned - since he's guaranteed to be the next character to act.

    Yes, it's also confusing that taking a turn and taking an immediate turn describe two so very different behaviours, but that's another subject, which is beyond the scope of my original post.
  • Waqui wrote: »
    Boov wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    Has someone confirmed that Boba can be prevented from his payout by daze/shock?

    Kinda hard to test Han as you can't daze him before he "shoots first".

    If Boba's turn gain cannot be prevented, then it's even more of an abomination. "Gaining/taking a turn" has been defined as gaining 100% turn meter and nothing else. It has not been defined as a 100% turn meter gain which cannot be prevented.

    by who ?

    According to Kyno, that's the definition. He has stated it several times in several discussions of the matter. No idea, what his source is, but he has stated it pretty persistently, that taking a turn simply means gaining 100% turn meter.

    well, he's not a dev.. so...

    There's no reason to call it a bonus turn if it only adds 100% TM. So i assume that's not the case with boba's bonus turn. It certainly isn't the case for Raid han's and GMY bonus turns.
  • Waqui
    5848 posts Member
    Boov wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Boov wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    Has someone confirmed that Boba can be prevented from his payout by daze/shock?

    Kinda hard to test Han as you can't daze him before he "shoots first".

    If Boba's turn gain cannot be prevented, then it's even more of an abomination. "Gaining/taking a turn" has been defined as gaining 100% turn meter and nothing else. It has not been defined as a 100% turn meter gain which cannot be prevented.

    by who ?

    According to Kyno, that's the definition. He has stated it several times in several discussions of the matter. No idea, what his source is, but he has stated it pretty persistently, that taking a turn simply means gaining 100% turn meter.

    well, he's not a dev.. so...

    There's no reason to call it a bonus turn if it only adds 100% TM. So i assume that's not the case with boba's bonus turn. It certainly isn't the case for Raid han's and GMY bonus turns.

    For raid Han, gaining a bonus turn means exactly gaining 100% TM. When at full TM he's susceptible to coin flips in case other characters also have 100% turnmeter. Han doesn't always go first with his bonus turn. But yes, since it happens in the beginning of the encounter, Han will have no debuffs and hence the TM gain will not be prevented. That's the only difference.

    You are right, that Kyno isn't a developer, but 'only' a forum moderator. But.... well, his persistent claims over several discussions - even months apart - made me believe the claim. I may have been wrong in doing so (in which case it's been a lot of time wasted on discussions with him), but.... let's see.
  • Waqui wrote: »
    Boov wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Boov wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    Has someone confirmed that Boba can be prevented from his payout by daze/shock?

    Kinda hard to test Han as you can't daze him before he "shoots first".

    If Boba's turn gain cannot be prevented, then it's even more of an abomination. "Gaining/taking a turn" has been defined as gaining 100% turn meter and nothing else. It has not been defined as a 100% turn meter gain which cannot be prevented.

    by who ?

    According to Kyno, that's the definition. He has stated it several times in several discussions of the matter. No idea, what his source is, but he has stated it pretty persistently, that taking a turn simply means gaining 100% turn meter.

    well, he's not a dev.. so...

    There's no reason to call it a bonus turn if it only adds 100% TM. So i assume that's not the case with boba's bonus turn. It certainly isn't the case for Raid han's and GMY bonus turns.

    For raid Han, gaining a bonus turn means exactly gaining 100% TM. When at full TM he's susceptible to coin flips in case other characters also have 100% turnmeter. Han doesn't always go first with his bonus turn. But yes, since it happens in the beginning of the encounter, Han will have no debuffs and hence the TM gain will not be prevented. That's the only difference.

    You are right, that Kyno isn't a developer, but 'only' a forum moderator. But.... well, his persistent claims over several discussions - even months apart - made me believe the claim. I may have been wrong in doing so (in which case it's been a lot of time wasted on discussions with him), but.... let's see.

    Gaining 100% TM = Gaining 100% TM
    can be prevented by debuffs (daze etc.) and doesn't necessarily lead to taking the upcomming turn after the turn in wich the toon gained 100%.
    Bonus turns =/= gaining 100% TM / having 100% TM at the start
    • Han's bonus turn: ignores taunts and inflicts an irresistable stun. While it it's true that the mechanic (starting with 100% TM) in place that ensures he gets his bonus turn at the start of the encounter is suboptimal occasionally, it doesn't reduce his "bonus turn" to just having 100% TM.
    • Yoda's bonus turn: This turn can't be prevented by debuffs (daze) as far as i know and it ensures yoda himself will also take the upcomming turn. While it's obviously also true that he gains 100% TM, he doesn't only get 100% TM.
    • boba's bonus turn: I don't actually know what it does, but it can't be prevented by debuffs, and/or guarantees the upcomming turn and/or has altered stats/abilities during the bonus turn, it is different than simply gaining 100% TM.
    To me it seems there's a clear distinction between gaining 100% TM and getting a bonus turn. The only thing that might lead to more confusion is the fact that not every bonus turn is the same as the other bonus turn, but it's consistant in it's own way nontheless.
    thrawn on the other hand.... that one just doesn't make sense to me in the way i've been lead to believe the mechanics of this game work, but i guess i can justify it by considering swapping TM as something different than gaining TM. Wich is silly if i'm being honest, how is swapping TM with a toon that has 100% TM any different than gaining 100% TM? I'm kinda annoyed by that one because it used to work exactly as described and now it just doesn't make sense to me anymore. On the bright side, it's more user friendly imo.
  • jauqmyjoseyx.png
    its shows here that the bonus turn = +100% unresistable turn meter, not unpreventable
    could be lazy conveyance or lazy web conversion or it could be how it is supposed to be and cg hasnt realized this yet
  • Waqui
    5848 posts Member
    jauqmyjoseyx.png
    its shows here that the bonus turn = +100% unresistable turn meter, not unpreventable
    could be lazy conveyance or lazy web conversion or it could be how it is supposed to be and cg hasnt realized this yet

    Thank you, @SpiderMitch. This is very helpfull and informative :—)

    Yes, it depends on what 'unresistable' covers. However, if f.ex. Biggs' TM gain doesn't have the same property, then I guess it's safe to assume, that Boba Fett's bonus turn gain cannot be prevented. Still only an assumption, though.

    @Kyno, I've asked you multiple times what the difference is between gaining a bonus turn and gaining 100% turn meter. Your answer has been, that a turn is defined as 100% turn meter (and that Han is not guaranteed to perform his action immediately, which was irrelevant for my question back then, and also here in this discussion). SpiderMitch' post might interest you. That might give a clue to what the difference is.
  • Boov wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Boov wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Boov wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    Has someone confirmed that Boba can be prevented from his payout by daze/shock?

    Kinda hard to test Han as you can't daze him before he "shoots first".

    If Boba's turn gain cannot be prevented, then it's even more of an abomination. "Gaining/taking a turn" has been defined as gaining 100% turn meter and nothing else. It has not been defined as a 100% turn meter gain which cannot be prevented.

    by who ?

    According to Kyno, that's the definition. He has stated it several times in several discussions of the matter. No idea, what his source is, but he has stated it pretty persistently, that taking a turn simply means gaining 100% turn meter.

    well, he's not a dev.. so...

    There's no reason to call it a bonus turn if it only adds 100% TM. So i assume that's not the case with boba's bonus turn. It certainly isn't the case for Raid han's and GMY bonus turns.

    For raid Han, gaining a bonus turn means exactly gaining 100% TM. When at full TM he's susceptible to coin flips in case other characters also have 100% turnmeter. Han doesn't always go first with his bonus turn. But yes, since it happens in the beginning of the encounter, Han will have no debuffs and hence the TM gain will not be prevented. That's the only difference.

    You are right, that Kyno isn't a developer, but 'only' a forum moderator. But.... well, his persistent claims over several discussions - even months apart - made me believe the claim. I may have been wrong in doing so (in which case it's been a lot of time wasted on discussions with him), but.... let's see.
    • Han's bonus turn: ignores taunts and inflicts an irresistable stun. While it it's true that the mechanic (starting with 100% TM) in place that ensures he gets his bonus turn at the start of the encounter is suboptimal occasionally, it doesn't reduce his "bonus turn" to just having 100% TM.

    Not quite correct. The bonus turn gain itself is nothing more than a 100% TM gain. The stun effect and limitations to only using his basic are other effects which are described separately in the ability description.

    The difference between Han and GMY lies in the word 'immediate'. GMY is guaranteed to not only gain 100% TM (the bonus turn) like Han, but also to act before any oth character. Both gain 100% TM as their bonus turn.

    Your arguments don't proove a distinction between gaining 100% TM and gaining a bonus turn.

    Regarding Thrawn, you are absolutely right, that before the recent change, his TM worked exactly as described. Now, they have changed the behaviour without updating the description hence creating inconsistency.
Sign In or Register to comment.