The Last Jedi

Replies

  • Boo
    3383 posts Member
    chron wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    @rebel_yell this was not for you but for @GreedoShot2nd

    But I will rebut your points very clearly.

    1) he was wearing the same clothes he came to the island with. I doubt he thought, "I should go into hiding, but first let me buy new clothes"

    He had fresh clothes that he put on immediately - clearly had other clothing. JJ set Luke up to be levitating boulders upon Rey's arrival - the scene was altered before the movie's release upon Johnson's script - turning Luke into the monstrosity we see in TLJ.

    2) That maneuver has to be done from a very short distance because in the grand scheme of things, hitting something even the size of the death star, traveling at light speed, from a distance the scanners wouldn't pick up, is nearly impossible. The only reason it worked is because all canons were firing at the cruisers headed towards Crait. The only computer capable of doing so was on the Falcon as evidenced by TFA and Solo movie. Also, it's a movie.

    So when the Star Destroyers were merely there to stop the Rebel's escaping at the battle of Endor - the Rebel fleet was close enough to the death star - is it not possible that one of their many capital ships could have used the Holdo maneuver against the death star and/or the imperial fleet? Like I say, although it looked cool, this move in TLJ is detrimentally lore breaking for the Star Wars universe, like it or not.

    3) no.

    Yes - We essentially came into the middle of the story with the OT a 2 part story Fall of a hero (PT) and his redemption (OT). Palpatine's rise to power required no explanation in ROTJ because that was the end of the story. We saw his rise to power in the PT. The entire point of this story overall was good over evil. We rooted for the Emperor to be defeated and have good triumph! What was the point when someone as evil or more so just shows up out of nowere - shattering the purpose of the previous 6 saga movies completely without explanation. For the audience invested in the story - that requires a little explanation, at least for the purposes of good story telling and continuity.

    4) Kylo's defeat from Rey is explained in TLJ and happened in TFA, so not relevant to the topic. Rey's rapid progress is a gap in the plot relative to all the other movies that also had plot holes. It's my biggest complaint about the story arc.

    It is a huge complaint in the story arc - however, aside from beating a trained force user & lightsaber combatant who is a Skywalker in direct battle - despite being injured, she bested Kylo in the force...a Skywalker remember, when he used his mind probe, she went so far as to turn it against him! She also beats him in the tug of war with the lightsaber on Starkiller base! Again...all without any training at all.

    Where Anakin was the force itself personified and the most powerful being to weild the force (although he did not meet his full potential) and Luke his direct descendant - they too could not master the force as fast, and they too had failings, where Rey seems to get on without any issues at all...puzzling indeed.


    5) This is a recurring theme in all the movies. You could ask the same question about the duel between Maul and QGJ. Why did Maul utilize the force in battle and QGJ seemingly did not?

    Maul was not that proficient in the force - he clearly did not have the ability for lightening. An accomplished Master such as QGJ would defend against his force attacks. We see the force used many times in duels - Yoda v. Dooku, Yoda v. Sidious, Anakin v. Obi Wan, Maul v. Obi Wan, Vader v. Luke - I could go on and on. But there is a subtle battle always going on between force users and its the ability to guard against force attacks - such as Yoda's "contest" with Dooku. Clearly in TLJ Snoke's Guard do not use the force - Kylo failed to use the force against them when he should have done so - no other than for creating a terribly written "dramatic scene" - good old Rian Johnson!

    6) that was also explained in the movie, but if you mean "if he wanted the jedi to go extinct, then why escape to the most holy of jedi locations" then I'd theorize it's because so few knew it even existed and any other habitable planets risked encounters with people who knew who he was.

    Partly true, but Johnson's commentary over TLJ was that Luke wanted the cycle of good and evil to end - he does this (letting the good "die") by leaving when the galaxy is already in control of Snoke and Kylo - not very smart. If this was Luke's plan he would have defeated them and then allowed the galaxy its peace. I understand what Johnson was trying to do - but he executed poorly, very poorly.

    7) fear of having to relive that experience. Because even the most devout / holy are fallible. This is a recurring theme in the star wars universe. And it's explained that the moment was fleeting. He previously DID want to kill Vader, but had time to reflect upon the consequence of those actions. In the sequence described in TLJ, he saw the future, and had a misguided, but short lived, reaction that was antithesis to his beliefs.

    No - Luke was made to fail so Rey can shine. Luke was what was pure - risking his own life to save a Princess in the Death Star in ANH, his friends on Bespin in TESB and the Galaxy in ROTJ - he was pure good that would do anything he could because he was doing what was right. Rey is that person now. The fact he would consider killing his own nephew goes against every fiber of his character, not exactly Kennedy's promise to Lucas about preserving and protecting the characters he created as we know them is it?

    1) Source please?

    2) No snub fighter is going to do enough damage at lightspeed to destroy anything much larger than itself, and it's more strategically viable to not waste an entire captial ship (and the lives inhabiting it) when well-placed munitions will do (even if they have to be flown in the middle of said station). Plus, the Death Star had shields in place, whereas the Supremacy and its fleet did not. Holdo could've missed. Hux (in his consuming lust of arrogance) could've had all cannons bearing on her in time to prevent her jump, or raised the shields at the very least (to the detriment of the rest of his fleet). A billion-miillion-hundred things could've gone wrong to prevent her maneuver, which is why it's a longshot at best, which breaks nothing regarding canon. Godspeed indeed.

    3) Because Abrams is Rear Admiral Mystery Box. He's excellent at setup, but horrific at resolution. In this trilogy's case, he set up too many issues, and left (as per his usual) before answering anything. He couldn't resolve Lost. He couldn't resolve Super 8. He couldn't resolve Cloverfield. I don't think he'll resolve IX. It's no wonder why Johnson went his own way, eschewing the Mystery Box for a lesson more telling about the nature of legacy within the convolution of resolution.

    My personal theory, which I know Disneyfilm (q'est que c'est "Lucasfilm"?) won't follow through but whevs, is that Snoke has the power to transfer his life essence to others, and has done so through the Knights of Ren (and will continue to do so in IX), thus his need to strengthen Kylo to be the ultimate Dark Sider. More than likely, Snoke's power corrodes whatever form he inhabits, so he has to transfer to stay immortal, and with Kylo, it's possible that he would no longer need to transfer. It's also possible that he's still alive, inhabiting and corroding another Ren Knight (since they're rumored to appear in IX). It's an cliched but viable premise, which Disneyfilm won't follow through, but whevs.

    4) You're basically agreeing with the OP. He called it a complaint. For me, Rey represents that which is unknown about the Force and its ability to evolve. Personally, I'm still in the camp that Anakin should be the most powerful being to ever wield it (and he did eventually meet his full potential by fulfilling his destiny), but that's just me. This trilogy says that there was bound to be someone more powerful, enough to not require dogmatic training. Anakin received a decade of it. Luke - a few days. Rey - exponential, ain't it? And what, essentially, is training? Was Anakin taught how to foresee obstacles at high speed? Was Luke taught to use telekinesis to retrieve his lightsaber in the Wampa cave? Was Rey taught to rappel dilapidated cruisers, fly a quadjumper or a stock light frieghter, and fight with a melee weapon with the greatest of ease? The clues are there.

    5) This is a nitpick of mine, though the outcome would've been the same, albeit with unnecessary (kick ace) padding.

    6a) My personal theory is that, with all that Luke (and Snoke) spoke about "balance in the Force", he felt that if he cut himself off from the Force, that in turn would negate Kylo's power as well, without realizing that Rey existed to feed that balance. In essence, by not doing anything, he was saving the galaxy from Kylo (so he thought). Also, the galaxy wasn't under the control of Snoke or Kylo when Kylo left.

    6b) Luke went to Ahch-To because, deep down, he couldn't let go of the legacy even then, but also to test himself by cutting himself off from the Force while at the heart of that great balance between Light and Darkness. What few realize is that Luke didn't leave a map for others to find him. Remember in Force Awakens...

    HAN: Those who knew him said he went looking for the first Jedi Temple.

    The map was extrapolated from "those who knew him", with Lor San Tekka seeking those people and their investigation.

    7) Um, yes - that's exactly Luke's nature, to always have a part of the Dark Side (fear) within him. His bionic hand is a constant reminder of that. Just because you overcome one obstacle doesn't mean it won't return to haunt you. No one is immune - not the Jedi Order who feared the disruption of civilization, and not the guy with daddy issues who almost died for the sake of an abject lesson. He saw something that was far more powerful than he ever encountered, especially during his auspice as The Legendary Luke Skywalker: Master Jedi (TM), returned to that fear for a split moment, then recovered (even faster than he did in Return of the Jedi). He bought into his own hype, which is a path to Darkness. Rey also believed it, which makes her as much of a fangirl as all the fanboys complaining about him (and she complained as well, but managed to move on, UNLIKE OTHERS). The movie's problem was that it treated the moment like Rashomon, going over the same theme from different viewpoints, thus lending to easy confusion when the final flashback would've done the trick. What results is what I've theorized in #6a.

    Personally, I think it'd be nifty if IX pulled a "Palpatine" and had the Resistance infiltrate the First Order from the inside, corrupting it to become the New Republic again, but once again, Disneyfilm will not do that, so whevs. I loved Last Jedi, but it has problems, mostly due to JJ Abrams: Master Jedi of the Mystery Box Side of the Force (TM). Would I have written Luke this way... yyyyyyyyyyyyyNO, but it was always possible for him to fail, and for me, this was the best way to expound on that possibility, especially in the timeframe (half that of what Lucas provided himself) Disneyfilm gives its lackeys.

    PS: Have you noticed that, unlike the other trilogies, this one has titles that form a complete sentence? Which is why I'm hoping the trilogy will be named as follows:

    VII: The Force Awakens...
    VIII: The Last Jedi...
    IX: ... And She Is Angry!

    1) - here is your source:



    2) No it is not more viable to not waste a capital ship, considering rebel capital ships were being targeted by the death star and blown up with a single shot - one capital ship using the Holdo Maneuver would have brought a quick end to the Battle of Endor. Not to mention Holdo herself could have used that tactic at any time during TLJ, but only does so when all other capital ships and their crew were already destroyed...smart thinking!

    3) I agree about JJ's mystery boxes - but he had some sweet setups for anyone with half a brain to do something good with - Johnson just threw everything out the window.

    No proof on Snoke's power - as far as we as the audience can ever hope to guess is that he is dead, as seen on screen.

    4) yes I did agree with the OP but also added a few points of my own - why does the force have to "evolve" it is what it is. Rey being the Mary Sue she is only shows what a boring character she is. If the force is evolving for her sake, it is not stated, but instead all we get is the most boring protagonist in history - no flaws, no failures, no growth - just win, win, win every time, no training, no growth - she just is.

    Anakin for sure should have been the most powerful force user who ever was and would be - he was the force itself personified.

    There are skills that come naturally, such as foresight, piloting ability or tech etc. But mastery over the force with such complicated powers such as mind control requires training, and also to beat another trained force user who was part of the Skywalker bloodline no less - again without training. If anyone was to be this good without training it should have been (logically) Anakin, not Rey.

    5) Kylo prides himself on his abilities with the force over others. He also likes to tap into the darkside when it suits him - and this was the perfect scenario. The scene did not make sense. Yes it is a bit of a nitpick, but it is what it is - nonsensical for the sake of drama. Pretty poor overall in my opinion.

    6 a) - Luke was also aware of Snoke's existence, as he was aware that Snoke's influence corrupted Kylo. This theory does not make sense when you take that into consideration.

    6b) Yes Luke went to Ach-To to cut himself off from the force with no other Jedi left in the galaxy to die and end the cycle - by doing so he left the Galaxy and his friends at the mercy of Kylo and Snoke and their First Order - this is not anything we know about Luke as to what he would do. Luke risks his life to save friends and the galaxy no matter the personal cost - in TLJ he attempts to murder his nephew as he sleeps and dooms the galaxy to evil - That's not Luke.

    7) answered from me already in points 6 a & b.

    Nice comments - I enjoyed reading your post.
    :smile:
  • chron
    28 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Boo wrote: »
    1) - here is your source:



    2) No it is not more viable to not waste a capital ship, considering rebel capital ships were being targeted by the death star and blown up with a single shot - one capital ship using the Holdo Maneuver would have brought a quick end to the Battle of Endor. Not to mention Holdo herself could have used that tactic at any time during TLJ, but only does so when all other capital ships and their crew were already destroyed...smart thinking!

    3) I agree about JJ's mystery boxes - but he had some sweet setups for anyone with half a brain to do something good with - Johnson just threw everything out the window.

    No proof on Snoke's power - as far as we as the audience can ever hope to guess is that he is dead, as seen on screen.

    4) yes I did agree with the OP but also added a few points of my own - why does the force have to "evolve" it is what it is. Rey being the Mary Sue she is only shows what a boring character she is. If the force is evolving for her sake, it is not stated, but instead all we get is the most boring protagonist in history - no flaws, no failures, no growth - just win, win, win every time, no training, no growth - she just is.

    Anakin for sure should have been the most powerful force user who ever was and would be - he was the force itself personified.

    There are skills that come naturally, such as foresight, piloting ability or tech etc. But mastery over the force with such complicated powers such as mind control requires training, and also to beat another trained force user who was part of the Skywalker bloodline no less - again without training. If anyone was to be this good without training it should have been (logically) Anakin, not Rey.

    5) Kylo prides himself on his abilities with the force over others. He also likes to tap into the darkside when it suits him - and this was the perfect scenario. The scene did not make sense. Yes it is a bit of a nitpick, but it is what it is - nonsensical for the sake of drama. Pretty poor overall in my opinion.

    6 a) - Luke was also aware of Snoke's existence, as he was aware that Snoke's influence corrupted Kylo. This theory does not make sense when you take that into consideration.

    6b) Yes Luke went to Ach-To to cut himself off from the force with no other Jedi left in the galaxy to die and end the cycle - by doing so he left the Galaxy and his friends at the mercy of Kylo and Snoke and their First Order - this is not anything we know about Luke as to what he would do. Luke risks his life to save friends and the galaxy no matter the personal cost - in TLJ he attempts to murder his nephew as he sleeps and dooms the galaxy to evil - That's not Luke.

    7) answered from me already in points 6 a & b.

    Nice comments - I enjoyed reading your post.
    :smile:

    1) An interesting tidbit, but behind the scenes speculation does not a final film make. It seems that Johnson made the right decision to comply his vision.

    2) You're forgetting my mention of the Death Star's shields, of which the Supremacy's fleet also did not have in place - why would it, since they had the enemy on the run? Also there's this particular exchange from The Empire Strikes Back:

    [the Millennium Falcon turns around to face the ISD Avenger]
    CAPTAIN NEEDA: They're moving into attack position. Shields up!

    Apparently, it's not needed to raise shields when you have the tactical advantage. Shields may drain power that could be used in more vital systems, which is why deflectors can be angled at various quarters, at least on starships. Plus, the Rebellion already had their plan in place to launch missiles inside the station, which ultimately did the trick far better than wasting thousands of crew lives on a longshot.

    3) JJ's Mystery Boxes were too vague to follow through that would've satified everyone. It's the three-toed giant foot statue all over again. They were too boldfaced, as if courting speculation as a means of storytelling. No one questioned Luke's father's identity until Vader spilled the beans, which makes it an effective surprise because it was out of left field and yet made perfect sense. Sadly, Disney is and will always be on the quest to replicate that moment in pop culture and call it their own. With all the mysteries surrounding who Snoke or Rey were, how Kylo was seduced to the Dark Side, how Finn was able to subvert his programming so completely, Johnson did what he could to tell the grander story about failure and the need to soldier on, not to be undone by subjecting speculators with more exposition than every Transformers movie combined. It has allowed me to conjure my own theories (that will never be fulfilled), because interesting movies excite my imagination, not feeling left out of the storytelling as if I'm part of some committee (I am NOT a COMMITTEE!)

    4) The Force isn't some technical power, it's a living presence with a will of its own. Luke and Snoke's belief of Light rising to meet Dark in equal measure suggest this will in action. Rey was destined to confront Kylo and Snoke, just not the way any of them thought she would. Her flaw is that she has a sense of belonging, of a fixed legacy of her own - surely her power must be attributed to something grander? - but in denying this, she is forced to learn to forge her own path and not cling to myth. See, growth.

    Plus, you didn't answer what "training" really means according to the parameters set in the movies. From my point of view, training deals more about how to generally utilize your feelings towards a purpose (whether for good or for assertion) rather than being technically taught how to lift rocks and alter minds. Rey was able to combine her survival instincts (for decades) while utilizing the Force without knowing it, much like Anakin's podracing or Luke's skyhopping. ("best bush pilot in the Outer Rim"). Why would these occur naturally yet not altering minds and lifting rocks, especially when one is imbued with the myth of such abilities? Her "training" is nebulous, but not outright unnatural. She was aware of the legend of the Jedi and the Sith, and was drawn psychosomtically to visions of the island, the Dark Side cave, and the Skywalker lightsaber. Rey isn't a Mary Sue*, she's a fangirl with a few spoilers in her. She's trying to piece it all together. I suspect the same would've happened to Anakin given more time.

    5) It's a nitpick for me as well, but nitpicks don't ruin a movie for me. Legitimate concerns can. Whether he used the Force on the Praetorians or not would've resulted in his win either way, the use being a much faster result, so nothing really changes.

    6a) Thus the failure of the Mystery Box. How much does Luke know of Snoke? Apparently it was important enough for Snoke to increase Kylo's power to surpass Luke, since he believed in balance so much, or else Snoke wouldn't have bothered and sought Luke himself. My Snoke theory comes to mind because...

    HAN: Snoke is using you for your power. When he gets what he wants, he'll crush you.

    ... which does allude to transference being a possibility. Snoke in his present form may have been too weak to deal with Luke Skywalker: Jedi Master (TM), from Snoke's point of view.

    6b) The difference in this case is two-fold: Luke sensed a Darkness greater than he ever encountered before AND it occurred during his tutelage. His attempt to "murder" Kylo only lasted a split second, far less time than it did for him to recover murdering Vader in front of the Emperor. This suggests that, even after 30 years, Luke still knew how to control his Darker impulses in quicker fashion. The thing is that it turns into a sitcomish circumstance of mistaken intent on Kylo's part (at which point, Luke might as well have spouted sexual innuendo for dialogue... classic Luke!). This is why the Rashomon technique on display doesn't work: it allows for easy confusion when the final flashback of the truth would've done the trick alone. For that, I blame either Johnson or Disneyfilm's first-draft schedule.
    After which, Luke succumbed to doubt, which is a path to fear. Kylo grew beyond Luke's ability to train or subdue him, destroyed all that could help Luke avail against Kylo (the resurgence of the Jedi Order), and it's not like Luke comes up with the best strategies (the only good one was the harpoon tow cable trick on Hoth) that eventually involve worse outcomes for him or his friends. That's why I prefer my theory of Luke's self banishment to deny the balance from such a greater Darkness. Snoke only influenced that Darkness.

    7) ... and? Luke is cursed. He's the closest any Jedi has ever gotten to the Dark Side and succeed from it. That doesn't mean it went away like the flu. It comes and goes, like herpes. This in turn may also suggest why he had to let Kylo go, because he may be faced with such a decision again, and if he failed, that's the galaxy's butt on a platter. Thus his ultimate solution on Crait.

    Yeah, it's good just to debate rather than resort to shouting matches. I'm not telling you to like the movie, I'm just stating why I do. I haven't even gotten to why I think the Canto Bight sequence is an excellent addition to the movie, or why Spirit Yoda was able to conjure a bolt of lightning, or why the ending was the best possible outcome for "Episode IX: But It Was A Sunday!"... B)




    * the term "Mary Sue" has always meant the characteristic embodiment of an author in a wish fulfillment capacity, like Bella Swan for Stephanie James or Luke Skywalker for George Lucas (Lucas = Luke S.), not the overpowerment of a character, which already has a name... "overpowerment".

    Post edited by chron on
  • Boo
    3383 posts Member
    chron wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    1) - here is your source:



    2) No it is not more viable to not waste a capital ship, considering rebel capital ships were being targeted by the death star and blown up with a single shot - one capital ship using the Holdo Maneuver would have brought a quick end to the Battle of Endor. Not to mention Holdo herself could have used that tactic at any time during TLJ, but only does so when all other capital ships and their crew were already destroyed...smart thinking!

    3) I agree about JJ's mystery boxes - but he had some sweet setups for anyone with half a brain to do something good with - Johnson just threw everything out the window.

    No proof on Snoke's power - as far as we as the audience can ever hope to guess is that he is dead, as seen on screen.

    4) yes I did agree with the OP but also added a few points of my own - why does the force have to "evolve" it is what it is. Rey being the Mary Sue she is only shows what a boring character she is. If the force is evolving for her sake, it is not stated, but instead all we get is the most boring protagonist in history - no flaws, no failures, no growth - just win, win, win every time, no training, no growth - she just is.

    Anakin for sure should have been the most powerful force user who ever was and would be - he was the force itself personified.

    There are skills that come naturally, such as foresight, piloting ability or tech etc. But mastery over the force with such complicated powers such as mind control requires training, and also to beat another trained force user who was part of the Skywalker bloodline no less - again without training. If anyone was to be this good without training it should have been (logically) Anakin, not Rey.

    5) Kylo prides himself on his abilities with the force over others. He also likes to tap into the darkside when it suits him - and this was the perfect scenario. The scene did not make sense. Yes it is a bit of a nitpick, but it is what it is - nonsensical for the sake of drama. Pretty poor overall in my opinion.

    6 a) - Luke was also aware of Snoke's existence, as he was aware that Snoke's influence corrupted Kylo. This theory does not make sense when you take that into consideration.

    6b) Yes Luke went to Ach-To to cut himself off from the force with no other Jedi left in the galaxy to die and end the cycle - by doing so he left the Galaxy and his friends at the mercy of Kylo and Snoke and their First Order - this is not anything we know about Luke as to what he would do. Luke risks his life to save friends and the galaxy no matter the personal cost - in TLJ he attempts to murder his nephew as he sleeps and dooms the galaxy to evil - That's not Luke.

    7) answered from me already in points 6 a & b.

    Nice comments - I enjoyed reading your post.
    :smile:

    1) An interesting tidbit, but behind the scenes speculation does not a final film make. It seems that Johnson made the right decision to comply his vision.

    2) You're forgetting my mention of the Death Star's shields, of which the Supremacy's fleet also did not have in place - why would it, since they had the enemy on the run? Also there's this particular exchange from The Empire Strikes Back:

    [the Millennium Falcon turns around to face the ISD Avenger]
    CAPTAIN NEEDA: They're moving into attack position. Shields up!

    Apparently, it's not needed to raise shields when you have the tactical advantage. Shields may drain power that could be used in more vital systems, which is why deflectors can be angled at various quarters, at least on starships. Plus, the Rebellion already had their plan in place to launch missiles inside the station, which ultimately did the trick far better than wasting thousands of crew lives on a longshot.

    3) JJ's Mystery Boxes were too vague to follow through that would've satified everyone. It's the three-toed giant foot statue all over again. They were too boldfaced, as if courting speculation as a means of storytelling. No one questioned Luke's father's identity until Vader spilled the beans, which makes it an effective surprise because it was out of left field and yet made perfect sense. Sadly, Disney is and will always be on the quest to replicate that moment in pop culture and call it their own. With all the mysteries surrounding who Snoke or Rey were, how Kylo was seduced to the Dark Side, how Finn was able to subvert his programming so completely, Johnson did what he could to tell the grander story about failure and the need to soldier on, not to be undone by subjecting speculators with more exposition than every Transformers movie combined. It has allowed me to conjure my own theories (that will never be fulfilled), because interesting movies excite my imagination, not feeling left out of the storytelling as if I'm part of some committee (I am NOT a COMMITTEE!)

    4) The Force isn't some technical power, it's a living presence with a will of its own. Luke and Snoke's belief of Light rising to meet Dark in equal measure suggest this will in action. Rey was destined to confront Kylo and Snoke, just not the way any of them thought she would. Her flaw is that she has a sense of belonging, of a fixed legacy of her own - surely her power must be attributed to something grander? - but in denying this, she is forced to learn to forge her own path and not cling to myth. See, growth.

    Plus, you didn't answer what "training" really means according to the parameters set in the movies. From my point of view, training deals more about how to generally utilize your feelings towards a purpose (whether for good or for assertion) rather than being technically taught how to lift rocks and alter minds. Rey was able to combine her survival instincts (for decades) while utilizing the Force without knowing it, much like Anakin's podracing or Luke's skyhopping. ("best bush pilot in the Outer Rim"). Why would these occur naturally yet not altering minds and lifting rocks, especially when one is imbued with the myth of such abilities? Her "training" is nebulous, but not outright unnatural. She was aware of the legend of the Jedi and the Sith, and was drawn psychosomtically to visions of the island, the Dark Side cave, and the Skywalker lightsaber. Rey isn't a Mary Sue*, she's a fangirl with a few spoilers in her. She's trying to piece it all together. I suspect the same would've happened to Anakin given more time.

    5) It's a nitpick for me as well, but nitpicks don't ruin a movie for me. Legitimate concerns can. Whether he used the Force on the Praetorians or not would've resulted in his win either way, the use being a much faster result, so nothing really changes.

    6a) Thus the failure of the Mystery Box. How much does Luke know of Snoke? Apparently it was important enough for Snoke to increase Kylo's power to surpass Luke, since he believed in balance so much, or else Snoke wouldn't have bothered and sought Luke himself. My Snoke theory comes to mind because...

    HAN: Snoke is using you for your power. When he gets what he wants, he'll crush you.

    ... which does allude to transference being a possibility. Snoke in his present form may have been too weak to deal with Luke Skywalker: Jedi Master (TM), from Snoke's point of view.

    6b) The difference in this case is two-fold: Luke sensed a Darkness greater than he ever encountered before AND it occurred during his tutelage. His attempt to "murder" Kylo only lasted a split second, far less time than it did for him to recover murdering Vader in front of the Emperor. This suggests that, even after 30 years, Luke still knew how to control his Darker impulses in quicker fashion. The thing is that it turns into a sitcomish circumstance of mistaken intent on Kylo's part (at which point, Luke might as well have spouted sexual innuendo for dialogue... classic Luke!). This is why the Rashomon technique on display doesn't work: it allows for easy confusion when the final flashback of the truth would've done the trick alone. For that, I blame either Johnson or Disneyfilm's first-draft schedule.
    After which, Luke succumbed to doubt, which is a path to fear. Kylo grew beyond Luke's ability to train or subdue him, destroyed all that could help Luke avail against Kylo (the resurgence of the Jedi Order), and it's not like Luke comes up with the best strategies (the only good one was the harpoon tow cable trick on Hoth) that eventually involve worse outcomes for him or his friends. That's why I prefer my theory of Luke's self banishment to deny the balance from such a greater Darkness. Snoke only influenced that Darkness.

    7) ... and? Luke is cursed. He's the closest any Jedi has ever gotten to the Dark Side and succeed from it. That doesn't mean it went away like the flu. It comes and goes, like herpes. This in turn may also suggest why he had to let Kylo go, because he may be faced with such a decision again, and if he failed, that's the galaxy's butt on a platter. Thus his ultimate solution on Crait.

    Yeah, it's good just to debate rather than resort to shouting matches. I'm not telling you to like the movie, I'm just stating why I do. I haven't even gotten to why I think the Canto Bight sequence is an excellent addition to the movie, or why Spirit Yoda was able to conjure a bolt of lightning, or why the ending was the best possible outcome for "Episode IX: But It Was A Sunday!"... B)




    * the term "Mary Sue" has always meant the characteristic embodiment of an author in a wish fulfillment capacity, like Bella Swan for Stephanie James or Luke Skywalker for George Lucas (Lucas = Luke S.), not the overpowerment of a character, which already has a name... "overpowerment".

    1) in your opinion. Frankly, JJ's vision of Luke went out the window for the sake of Johnson's vision - which is my opinion was absolutely terrible. Needless to say, without Johnson, Luke would have been quite different indeed.

    2) Bombardment - usually asteroids or turbolaser fire - Han flew through the shields of Starkiller Base at lightspeed - since the Holdo maneuver is based on a weapon using lightspeed - this defence seems to not apply. This is why the Holdo maneuver in TLJ is so lore breaking - it looked cool and everything, but it was lore breaking.

    3) Again when those justified and purposefully teased speculations are thrown away in a franchise that has specific lore etc as well as an invested audience for over 40 years - you don't do what Johnson did with JJ's mystery boxes - turn them into something cool - don't throw them away for the sake of trying to be different and interesting - its just Lazy Writing - which Johnson has already admitted to being a lazy writer.

    4) Growth? Rey has not had any challenges that warrant any relatable growth from the audience - she is over powered and boring. If the force could balance itself it would have done so without the need of Anakin or the prophecy that technically made up over the course of 6 prior movies - here we just have a throw away explanation that the force balances itself - again...Lazy Writing on Johnson's part.

    As for you point on training - I can fly combat jets without any pilot training because I can feel like I can - this makes no sense.

    5) A nit pick is still a genuine thing to me - it wasn't really a small nit pick either. People actually laughed in the theatre and others actually shouted "use the force ****" - a lot of people saw this, for the sake of drama over logic and character, again...lazy writing by Johnson (I am glad he admitted he is a lazy writer because its not hard to see).

    6) a) I like the theory - certainly better than anything else I've heard. But overall doesn't add anything to the Story - Andy Serkis has already confirmed that Snoke's character is dead and gone like the Dodo - so again, what was the point of all of this??

    b) I don't buy it. Luke was an accomplished Jedi Master, 30 years since we last saw him and had certainly progressed further in control and mastery over the force etc. during that time. He who redeemed the Sith Lord Darth Vader but was willing to murder his own nephew in his sleep???? Not the Luke we all know at all, no matter how you spin it.

    I liked the different versions though (if that is the route they took) it showed on one hand Luke feeling despair and darkness and ultimately controlling himself, then you have Kylo's version of attempted murder which pushed him over the edge. But ultimately - I hate this, there should have been more to it than what it was.

    7) so he hid from possible failure, when he already left the galaxy in doom at the mercy of Snoke, Kylo and The First Order - leaving his friends to die, Han did die and Luke still did not care??? Again, this is nothing like Luke Skywalker at all. The "Jake Skywalker" (Mark's words not mine) is another product of Johnson's lazy writing. Degrading the old heroes so the new can shine, changing established characters to fit his twisted narrative of lazy writing of a story.

    Canto Bite and the entire story of the Resistance chased by the First Order was absolutely absurd in this movie. Holdo could have done her thing at any time.

    I agree on Yoda. Obi Wan claimed he would be even more powerful if struck down - we see some of that with Yoda...Fantastic!

    Another thing people dislike is the Resistance bombs - My theory is that these could be magnetized to their target rather than simple gravity as we all know in our own world technology.
  • TVF
    9359 posts Member
    It would take longer to read these posts than to watch the movie....
  • I generally like a good Star Wars debate ... I don't want to bang on too much about TLJ, but I just had to weigh in on a couple of items in here:
    chron wrote:
    No snub fighter is going to do enough damage at lightspeed to destroy anything much larger than itself ...
    OK, hold on a minute. In (ahem) "real world" physics, a mass of any size traveling at light speed carries with it an infinite amount of energy; a snub fighter (or even a marble) would be sufficient to blow the sneezes out of a capital ship or even a Death Star. But then, we have magic Star Wars physics so anything is possible. However, in either universe, there is zero basis for saying a little one-man fighter at lightspeed (or faster!) does not carry enough energy to destroy a larger target.
    chron wrote:
    7) He's the closest any Jedi has ever gotten to the Dark Side and succeed from it.
    What about Mace Windu? Vaapad literally channels the combatants' inner darkness into a usable form.
    chron wrote:
    Snoke is possessed by a body-jumping force-demon.
    This ... is a very interesting idea! I'll allow it


    I still reject everything the new producers did with Luke's character. It's wrong. It's laughable. It's unforgivable. I did not think it was possible for a new SW film to stink worse than AOTC ... I guess I was too optimistic.

    Rogue One was cool. I can dig on it.
  • TVF wrote: »
    It would take longer to read these posts than to watch the movie....

    But at least the last half hour of the movie is entertaining.
  • Boo
    3383 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    It would take longer to read these posts than to watch the movie....

    But at least the last half hour of the movie is entertaining.

    Entertaining to a lay person, but pretty ridiculous to the fans.
  • Boo
    3383 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    It would take longer to read these posts than to watch the movie....

    But why on Earth would you want to watch TLJ - I'd rather watch paint dry.
  • Boo wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    It would take longer to read these posts than to watch the movie....

    But at least the last half hour of the movie is entertaining.

    Entertaining to a lay person, but pretty ridiculous to the fans.

    Last half hour was the most enjoyable part of the movie. Not saying it was the greatest 30 minutes of SW, just the best of the film
  • TVF
    9359 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    It would take longer to read these posts than to watch the movie....

    But why on Earth would you want to watch TLJ - I'd rather watch paint dry.

    There's obviously no reason to answer this "question."
  • TVF wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    It would take longer to read these posts than to watch the movie....

    But why on Earth would you want to watch TLJ - I'd rather watch paint dry.

    There's obviously no reason to answer this "question."

    It could be Kingdom of the Crystal Skulls :o
  • EA_Cian
    971 posts EA Staff (retired)
    Hey folks, let's try to reel it in just a lil bit. I understand The Last Jedi was a super divisive film but let's please not start taking jabs at folks who would (or wouldn't) want to watch the film.
  • Boo wrote: »

    1) in your opinion. Frankly, JJ's vision of Luke went out the window for the sake of Johnson's vision - which is my opinion was absolutely terrible. Needless to say, without Johnson, Luke would have been quite different indeed.

    2) Bombardment - usually asteroids or turbolaser fire - Han flew through the shields of Starkiller Base at lightspeed - since the Holdo maneuver is based on a weapon using lightspeed - this defence seems to not apply. This is why the Holdo maneuver in TLJ is so lore breaking - it looked cool and everything, but it was lore breaking.

    3) Again when those justified and purposefully teased speculations are thrown away in a franchise that has specific lore etc as well as an invested audience for over 40 years - you don't do what Johnson did with JJ's mystery boxes - turn them into something cool - don't throw them away for the sake of trying to be different and interesting - its just Lazy Writing - which Johnson has already admitted to being a lazy writer.

    4) Growth? Rey has not had any challenges that warrant any relatable growth from the audience - she is over powered and boring. If the force could balance itself it would have done so without the need of Anakin or the prophecy that technically made up over the course of 6 prior movies - here we just have a throw away explanation that the force balances itself - again...Lazy Writing on Johnson's part.

    As for you point on training - I can fly combat jets without any pilot training because I can feel like I can - this makes no sense.

    5) A nit pick is still a genuine thing to me - it wasn't really a small nit pick either. People actually laughed in the theatre and others actually shouted "use the force ****" - a lot of people saw this, for the sake of drama over logic and character, again...lazy writing by Johnson (I am glad he admitted he is a lazy writer because its not hard to see).

    6) a) I like the theory - certainly better than anything else I've heard. But overall doesn't add anything to the Story - Andy Serkis has already confirmed that Snoke's character is dead and gone like the Dodo - so again, what was the point of all of this??

    b) I don't buy it. Luke was an accomplished Jedi Master, 30 years since we last saw him and had certainly progressed further in control and mastery over the force etc. during that time. He who redeemed the Sith Lord Darth Vader but was willing to murder his own nephew in his sleep???? Not the Luke we all know at all, no matter how you spin it.

    I liked the different versions though (if that is the route they took) it showed on one hand Luke feeling despair and darkness and ultimately controlling himself, then you have Kylo's version of attempted murder which pushed him over the edge. But ultimately - I hate this, there should have been more to it than what it was.

    7) so he hid from possible failure, when he already left the galaxy in doom at the mercy of Snoke, Kylo and The First Order - leaving his friends to die, Han did die and Luke still did not care??? Again, this is nothing like Luke Skywalker at all. The "Jake Skywalker" (Mark's words not mine) is another product of Johnson's lazy writing. Degrading the old heroes so the new can shine, changing established characters to fit his twisted narrative of lazy writing of a story.

    Canto Bite and the entire story of the Resistance chased by the First Order was absolutely absurd in this movie. Holdo could have done her thing at any time.

    I agree on Yoda. Obi Wan claimed he would be even more powerful if struck down - we see some of that with Yoda...Fantastic!

    Another thing people dislike is the Resistance bombs - My theory is that these could be magnetized to their target rather than simple gravity as we all know in our own world technology.


    1) As you say, in your opinion. JJ had a vision of Luke beyond Mystery Boxes?

    2) An apt take, but in saying such, wouldn't that mean that JJ's vision of lightspeed set up Johnson to follow through with his lore-breaking maneuver? Even Han didn't know that maneuver would work. Otherwise, that refresh rate could be murder even on a captial ship.

    3) That's assuming that JJ had anything to note from his Mystery Boxes. It's all speculation, the kind that Johnson wanted to surpass to tell a bigger story beyond the details that might have only satisfied some in the rushed timeframe given by Disneyfilm. Speculation leads to expectation. Expectation leads to demand. Demand... leads to suffering.

    4) It's all part of the setup Disneyfilm wants to relive the "glory days" of the Rebellion trilogy, of which Force Awakens is blamed for in terms of fidelity. Having an evil Empire renewed, only to setup someone to thwart it once again, is Disneyfilm's ultimate plan for this trilogy. The balance of the Force is always being tested, only now it's being rushed. Rey's growth is minimal but essential as it takes place within the span of moments within two films, as opposed to 40 years of lore, which spans 36. She does what she can with the knowledge (the Skywalker myth) and experience (as a Jakku exile) given beforehand, and what results is a fangirl who learns to adapt when things don't go her way. That's more prescient in current times than bequeathing yet another character with an ongoing (or inescapable or neverending) familial legacy.

    My point on training supposes that flying jets and performing mind tricks are not mutually exclusive. One is based on rote discipline and the other on a mystical presence that may be partly responsible for adapting to such an ability, according to its own will. Would that be too farfetched to realize about the Great Mystery, at least how Disney now sees it in their rush for glory?

    5) It really isn't for me, and here's where we part ways. It was a small nitpick to me. No one laughed at my theater. You're conflating personal experience to general observation. Did every theater have That Guy (TM) shout about using the Force? Did that come to mind to every single opposer, or were they more preoccupied with other "glaring" issues? I thought this was supposed to be a polarizing film, with fans on both sides. Opinion is everywhere. ;)

    6a) Kennedy has confirmed that footage of Carrie Fisher won't be used in Episode IX: Then She Hit the Snooze Button. For a slipshod affair that this clearly turned into, they're doing remarkable work relying on rather standard tropes. My point of the theory is that what's present in the films is enough to engage my imagination to speculate further without secretly commanding Disneyfilm to obey my every wish, like I'm some armchair stockholder. It's fun for me and it fuels possibilities for stories in my future roleplaying sessions (yes, I'm a GM). It's funny, no one taught me how to do that. I just... started, and got better at it.

    6b) I'll put it this way:

    YOU: He who redeemed the Sith Lord Darth Vader but was willing to murder his own nephew in his sleep...

    REY: (to Luke) ... and a Jedi who saved him (Vader). Yes, the most hated man in the galaxy, but you saw that there was conflict inside him. You believed he wasn't gone, that he could be turned.

    You see what's happening, right? It's actually weird.

    The Force is in the details, so to speak. His murder attempt on Kylo was fleeting compared to his attempt against Vader, even though he thought the danger was greater, happening under his own tutelage. The scene shows his growth and weakness all at once. Johnson's fault was Rashomon-ing it all up. You can throw qualifiers like "30 years" and "Jedi Master" around, but that doesn't mean change isn't possible. There was always the possibility of Luke failing as a 30 year Jedi Master.

    Though I agree about "there should have been to it than what it was". It think this is at the heart of how hard it is to appreciate this movie. Snoke luring Kylo for one thing. Kylo's descent into the Dark Side at that point, for another. What we're left with is a scene that we're meant to take at face value, and that for me is my only major complaint of the movie. Points of interest are sprinkled in the film, surrounded by action related to those points, so if you blinked you missed them, and they lend no natural flowthrough. The impetus is inorganic. It took me a couple more viewings to understand certain missing pieces (not that I'm telling you to do the same). It's that **** map all over again! ACCURSED MYSTERY BOX!!!

    7a) Did Luke know about the First Order? As Luke saw it, it was just Snoke, Kylo, and a few other zealots. He cut himself off from the Force to not rely on foresight, so how would he know his friends would die? My previous theory still holds because he might have thought he was doing right by not doing anything. Also, Luke cared enough to ask Chewie about Han, and to visit Leia and say "no one is really gone", giving Leia hope about her son. Also, Hamill rescinded his own apprehensions usually at the same times he spoke them in interviews.

    7b) Even with everyone onboard the Raddus? "Counterintuitive" doesn't even cut it then. Note that the Supremacy wasn't completely destroyed. There was still enough to send a full contingent - plus miniature Death Star tech - to Crait. Canto Bight served to show who the heart of the Resistance is and how those who join come to believe in it even when the galaxy doesn't, as well as the nature of warfare as a cyclical trap (which conveniently serves Disneyfilm's need to recycle the Rebellion trilogy). Themes well beyond performing a longshot maneuver.

    7c) My side theory on this is that nature itself is part of the Force, and that Jedi Spirits are only according to the point of view of whomever envisions them. Luke may have talked to "Yoda", but he was actually talking to the Force, which struck the tree down.

    7d) My belief as well.



  • TVF wrote: »
    It would take longer to read these posts than to watch the movie....

    Not a fan of novels, eh? Try reading the Battle of Helm's Deep in Two Towers. Trust me, it took far less time than it did to watch it.
  • I generally like a good Star Wars debate ... I don't want to bang on too much about TLJ, but I just had to weigh in on a couple of items in here:
    chron wrote:
    No snub fighter is going to do enough damage at lightspeed to destroy anything much larger than itself ...
    OK, hold on a minute. In (ahem) "real world" physics, a mass of any size traveling at light speed carries with it an infinite amount of energy; a snub fighter (or even a marble) would be sufficient to blow the sneezes out of a capital ship or even a Death Star. But then, we have magic Star Wars physics so anything is possible. However, in either universe, there is zero basis for saying a little one-man fighter at lightspeed (or faster!) does not carry enough energy to destroy a larger target.
    chron wrote:
    7) He's the closest any Jedi has ever gotten to the Dark Side and succeed from it.
    What about Mace Windu? Vaapad literally channels the combatants' inner darkness into a usable form.
    chron wrote:
    Snoke is possessed by a body-jumping force-demon.
    This ... is a very interesting idea! I'll allow it


    I still reject everything the new producers did with Luke's character. It's wrong. It's laughable. It's unforgivable. I did not think it was possible for a new SW film to stink worse than AOTC ... I guess I was too optimistic.

    Rogue One was cool. I can dig on it.

    1) By that regard, you're saying that a snub fighter could do both no damage and all the damages. My basis is that the Raddus didn't completely destroy the First Order fleet, or the credits and Avengers midcredits scene would've rolled by then.

    2) Ah, Legacy. Ain't it a hoot? If Lucas didn't say it, it didn't happen. (Cue the inevitable "including Last Jedi" remark)

    3) Let's get it on!

    4) Attack of the Clones is one of the six greatest movies ever made. Anything beyond the Holy Saga (I-VI) is up to scrutiny, and yes, that includes the faulty Last Jedi.

    5) I dig it too.
  • You’re going to need to qualify the AotC comment
  • Hantal86 wrote: »
    You’re going to need to qualify the AotC comment

    Nupe, I'm good. Unless you want to read another of TVF's dreaded "novels".
  • One of the things that has been weighing on me about this entire "that's not the Luke from the OT", is the desire for no character evolution. I've been thinking that it would be a disservice to the character if he hadn't changed.

    Rebels spoiler below:
    Think about how sad Old Ben was to kill Maul when he returned to Tatooine? He didn't want to take a life, even one as twisted as Maul.

    Now multiply that by the 100's of thousands that died because of Luke's actions? Was it justified? yeah, but as a holy person, all those deaths at your hands are going to weigh on you. The guilt could be overwhelming. Cutting himself off from the force seems to be him simply saying "I don't want to be responsible for other people's deaths again".
  • I felt luke running away is perfectly in character. look at how he coped with the death of a man he’d only really known for a few days- he needed comforting by Leia who had just watched her entire world get destroyed without it getting her down
  • Chucko_marek
    2281 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Hantal86 wrote: »
    I felt luke running away is perfectly in character. look at how he coped with the death of a man he’d only really known for a few days- he needed comforting by Leia who had just watched her entire world get destroyed without it getting her down

    Who says Luke only knew Ben a few days? Even if he did, he didn't know his parents and who knows how Uncle Owen treated him? Maybe Ben was a father figure to him, after all, Ben was supposed to watch over the chosen one until the time was right.
  • Uncle Owen drove Ben off and warned him to stay away from Luke. Luke knew who Ben was but no more than recognising him. That’s made pretty clear in the films and even more in the expanded stuff
  • The only hope for 9 is a total retcon of 8.
  • TVF
    9359 posts Member
    chron wrote: »
    Hantal86 wrote: »
    You’re going to need to qualify the AotC comment

    Nupe, I'm good. Unless you want to read another of TVF's dreaded "novels".

    Wait....six greatest movies ever, or six greatest SW movies?

    I mean, I disagree either way, but...
  • All this talk about "mystery boxes".
    But the fact is firstly I got movie after which I was curious what will happen next and how some question will be answered.
    And after second movie throught all this nonsense I don't care about future events. My only reason to see the next is connection with swgoh.
  • Let the past die, kill it if you have to.
    My exact thoughts about the last piece of garbage.
  • Let the past die, kill it if you have to.
    My exact thoughts about the last piece of garbage.

    This x100

    TLJ was not good for the Star Wars fandom. It only served to interest new fans and people that don’t care that much about the Universe. Or people that 100% think Star Wars has no faults and everything Star Wars is amazing (not true).
  • Boo
    3383 posts Member
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    One of the things that has been weighing on me about this entire "that's not the Luke from the OT", is the desire for no character evolution. I've been thinking that it would be a disservice to the character if he hadn't changed.

    Rebels spoiler below:
    Think about how sad Old Ben was to kill Maul when he returned to Tatooine? He didn't want to take a life, even one as twisted as Maul.

    Now multiply that by the 100's of thousands that died because of Luke's actions? Was it justified? yeah, but as a holy person, all those deaths at your hands are going to weigh on you. The guilt could be overwhelming. Cutting himself off from the force seems to be him simply saying "I don't want to be responsible for other people's deaths again".

    But in so doing he cut himself from the force and ran away when the galaxy needed him. He left the galaxy and his friends and family at the hands of the evil Snoke and his First Order - without Luke's help the New Republic alone has been wiped out - countless lives, Han was killed, the only hope for the galaxy in the Resistance is being hunted down and destroyed and he still does not care.

    Him not taking action is killing more people than if he did - failed logic here again. And again, this is not LUKE, its "JAKE".
  • Boo
    3383 posts Member
    chron wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »

    1) in your opinion. Frankly, JJ's vision of Luke went out the window for the sake of Johnson's vision - which is my opinion was absolutely terrible. Needless to say, without Johnson, Luke would have been quite different indeed.

    2) Bombardment - usually asteroids or turbolaser fire - Han flew through the shields of Starkiller Base at lightspeed - since the Holdo maneuver is based on a weapon using lightspeed - this defence seems to not apply. This is why the Holdo maneuver in TLJ is so lore breaking - it looked cool and everything, but it was lore breaking.

    3) Again when those justified and purposefully teased speculations are thrown away in a franchise that has specific lore etc as well as an invested audience for over 40 years - you don't do what Johnson did with JJ's mystery boxes - turn them into something cool - don't throw them away for the sake of trying to be different and interesting - its just Lazy Writing - which Johnson has already admitted to being a lazy writer.

    4) Growth? Rey has not had any challenges that warrant any relatable growth from the audience - she is over powered and boring. If the force could balance itself it would have done so without the need of Anakin or the prophecy that technically made up over the course of 6 prior movies - here we just have a throw away explanation that the force balances itself - again...Lazy Writing on Johnson's part.

    As for you point on training - I can fly combat jets without any pilot training because I can feel like I can - this makes no sense.

    5) A nit pick is still a genuine thing to me - it wasn't really a small nit pick either. People actually laughed in the theatre and others actually shouted "use the force ****" - a lot of people saw this, for the sake of drama over logic and character, again...lazy writing by Johnson (I am glad he admitted he is a lazy writer because its not hard to see).

    6) a) I like the theory - certainly better than anything else I've heard. But overall doesn't add anything to the Story - Andy Serkis has already confirmed that Snoke's character is dead and gone like the Dodo - so again, what was the point of all of this??

    b) I don't buy it. Luke was an accomplished Jedi Master, 30 years since we last saw him and had certainly progressed further in control and mastery over the force etc. during that time. He who redeemed the Sith Lord Darth Vader but was willing to murder his own nephew in his sleep???? Not the Luke we all know at all, no matter how you spin it.

    I liked the different versions though (if that is the route they took) it showed on one hand Luke feeling despair and darkness and ultimately controlling himself, then you have Kylo's version of attempted murder which pushed him over the edge. But ultimately - I hate this, there should have been more to it than what it was.

    7) so he hid from possible failure, when he already left the galaxy in doom at the mercy of Snoke, Kylo and The First Order - leaving his friends to die, Han did die and Luke still did not care??? Again, this is nothing like Luke Skywalker at all. The "Jake Skywalker" (Mark's words not mine) is another product of Johnson's lazy writing. Degrading the old heroes so the new can shine, changing established characters to fit his twisted narrative of lazy writing of a story.

    Canto Bite and the entire story of the Resistance chased by the First Order was absolutely absurd in this movie. Holdo could have done her thing at any time.

    I agree on Yoda. Obi Wan claimed he would be even more powerful if struck down - we see some of that with Yoda...Fantastic!

    Another thing people dislike is the Resistance bombs - My theory is that these could be magnetized to their target rather than simple gravity as we all know in our own world technology.


    1) As you say, in your opinion. JJ had a vision of Luke beyond Mystery Boxes?

    2) An apt take, but in saying such, wouldn't that mean that JJ's vision of lightspeed set up Johnson to follow through with his lore-breaking maneuver? Even Han didn't know that maneuver would work. Otherwise, that refresh rate could be murder even on a captial ship.

    3) That's assuming that JJ had anything to note from his Mystery Boxes. It's all speculation, the kind that Johnson wanted to surpass to tell a bigger story beyond the details that might have only satisfied some in the rushed timeframe given by Disneyfilm. Speculation leads to expectation. Expectation leads to demand. Demand... leads to suffering.

    4) It's all part of the setup Disneyfilm wants to relive the "glory days" of the Rebellion trilogy, of which Force Awakens is blamed for in terms of fidelity. Having an evil Empire renewed, only to setup someone to thwart it once again, is Disneyfilm's ultimate plan for this trilogy. The balance of the Force is always being tested, only now it's being rushed. Rey's growth is minimal but essential as it takes place within the span of moments within two films, as opposed to 40 years of lore, which spans 36. She does what she can with the knowledge (the Skywalker myth) and experience (as a Jakku exile) given beforehand, and what results is a fangirl who learns to adapt when things don't go her way. That's more prescient in current times than bequeathing yet another character with an ongoing (or inescapable or neverending) familial legacy.

    My point on training supposes that flying jets and performing mind tricks are not mutually exclusive. One is based on rote discipline and the other on a mystical presence that may be partly responsible for adapting to such an ability, according to its own will. Would that be too farfetched to realize about the Great Mystery, at least how Disney now sees it in their rush for glory?

    5) It really isn't for me, and here's where we part ways. It was a small nitpick to me. No one laughed at my theater. You're conflating personal experience to general observation. Did every theater have That Guy (TM) shout about using the Force? Did that come to mind to every single opposer, or were they more preoccupied with other "glaring" issues? I thought this was supposed to be a polarizing film, with fans on both sides. Opinion is everywhere. ;)

    6a) Kennedy has confirmed that footage of Carrie Fisher won't be used in Episode IX: Then She Hit the Snooze Button. For a slipshod affair that this clearly turned into, they're doing remarkable work relying on rather standard tropes. My point of the theory is that what's present in the films is enough to engage my imagination to speculate further without secretly commanding Disneyfilm to obey my every wish, like I'm some armchair stockholder. It's fun for me and it fuels possibilities for stories in my future roleplaying sessions (yes, I'm a GM). It's funny, no one taught me how to do that. I just... started, and got better at it.

    6b) I'll put it this way:

    YOU: He who redeemed the Sith Lord Darth Vader but was willing to murder his own nephew in his sleep...

    REY: (to Luke) ... and a Jedi who saved him (Vader). Yes, the most hated man in the galaxy, but you saw that there was conflict inside him. You believed he wasn't gone, that he could be turned.

    You see what's happening, right? It's actually weird.

    The Force is in the details, so to speak. His murder attempt on Kylo was fleeting compared to his attempt against Vader, even though he thought the danger was greater, happening under his own tutelage. The scene shows his growth and weakness all at once. Johnson's fault was Rashomon-ing it all up. You can throw qualifiers like "30 years" and "Jedi Master" around, but that doesn't mean change isn't possible. There was always the possibility of Luke failing as a 30 year Jedi Master.

    Though I agree about "there should have been to it than what it was". It think this is at the heart of how hard it is to appreciate this movie. Snoke luring Kylo for one thing. Kylo's descent into the Dark Side at that point, for another. What we're left with is a scene that we're meant to take at face value, and that for me is my only major complaint of the movie. Points of interest are sprinkled in the film, surrounded by action related to those points, so if you blinked you missed them, and they lend no natural flowthrough. The impetus is inorganic. It took me a couple more viewings to understand certain missing pieces (not that I'm telling you to do the same). It's that **** map all over again! ACCURSED MYSTERY BOX!!!

    7a) Did Luke know about the First Order? As Luke saw it, it was just Snoke, Kylo, and a few other zealots. He cut himself off from the Force to not rely on foresight, so how would he know his friends would die? My previous theory still holds because he might have thought he was doing right by not doing anything. Also, Luke cared enough to ask Chewie about Han, and to visit Leia and say "no one is really gone", giving Leia hope about her son. Also, Hamill rescinded his own apprehensions usually at the same times he spoke them in interviews.

    7b) Even with everyone onboard the Raddus? "Counterintuitive" doesn't even cut it then. Note that the Supremacy wasn't completely destroyed. There was still enough to send a full contingent - plus miniature Death Star tech - to Crait. Canto Bight served to show who the heart of the Resistance is and how those who join come to believe in it even when the galaxy doesn't, as well as the nature of warfare as a cyclical trap (which conveniently serves Disneyfilm's need to recycle the Rebellion trilogy). Themes well beyond performing a longshot maneuver.

    7c) My side theory on this is that nature itself is part of the Force, and that Jedi Spirits are only according to the point of view of whomever envisions them. Luke may have talked to "Yoda", but he was actually talking to the Force, which struck the tree down.

    7d) My belief as well.



    1. Not my opinion. The video I posted proved this.

    2. I agree. Han's move in TFA was dangerous. No one would attempt it because no one would be able to get out of lightspeed before impact. Han did so (because he is awesome). Simply using a cruiser as a battering ram for the purpose of a suicidal run/bomb should have been anticipated in any given galactic military defence. I agree with you - both accounts of this are certainly open to scrutiny of breaking lore - does not make either ok.

    3. No. JJ may not have had anything in those mystery boxes. He left them for Johnson to do something with. Rather than writing something great for those mystery boxes Johnson took the lazy way out and turned them into nothing. That does not subvert expectations in a good way at all. Vader being Luke's father subverted expectations and was possibly the biggest reveal in cinematic history - Johnson just bailed out of trying to do anything good with the mysteries JJ set up for him.

    4. Rey is a nonsensical Mary Sue - please move on.

    5. The scene was nonsensical for the purpose of drama. Not only does Kylo not use the force when he should, but also weapons disappear and reappear in order to make this awful scene "flow" and therefore, doesn't flow at all. There are multiple breakdown videos of this scene on Youtube which show just how laughable it is. At the end of the day it wouldf be like Luke or Obi Wan struggling to take down a few stormtroopers and not using the force to do so - its just a crazy silly scene due to Johnson's terrible lazy writing.

    6A. I don't know what you are talking about here, in regard to Kennedy, but I'll bite. Yes she confirmed no extra footage of Carrie will be used, which is contrary to what has been confirmed already - she has no clue what is going on because she is not involved. She is a figurehead of the company until her contract runs out (3 years) and with Iger confirming again that they will slow any future movies down, her contract will end before another SW movie - she is merely just a presence at Lucasfilm at this point. She is done. Not sure what all of this has to do with the original point of 6A

    6B. This makes no sense. Luke saved Vader but not his own nephew. He saw conflict in Vader but not in Kylo? Yet Rey sees conflict in Kylo. Kylo is clearly more conflicted than Vader ever was, but Luke can't see that? C'mon, give me a break.

    7A. Luke was aware of the First Order as he knew about them during his conversations with Rey. Even when his friend Han died he still did not care - again, this is Jake not Luke.

    7B. This doesn't stop Holdo from doing her thing at any time during the movie. We had a pointless plot at Canto Bite to tell the audience "War is bad...M'kay". Terrible writing by Johnson... again.

    7C. I don't agree on this.

    7D. Glad we agree on this.
  • Boo
    3383 posts Member
    Hantal86 wrote: »
    I felt luke running away is perfectly in character. look at how he coped with the death of a man he’d only really known for a few days- he needed comforting by Leia who had just watched her entire world get destroyed without it getting her down

    So, Luke running away to let the galaxy burn and his friends die is perfectly in character because he was upset about the death of his mentor???????????????? ok.
  • EventineElessedil
    4873 posts Member
    edited January 3
    Han's ridiculous manuever to lightspeed through the shield is lorebreaking, even in the new canon. Hyperdrives do not work that close to a planetary gravity well. The Imperial interdictor cruiser generates a gravity well which both prevents a hyperdrive from engaging and will interrupt an operating hyperdrive, pulling ships out of hyperspace. The interdictor has been used in SW Rebels and the Alliances novel (new canon). The very existence of the interdictor is proof positive that SW hyperdrives cannot operate close to a large gravitational mass.

    Attempting to fly in through the shield like that is impossible because the ship would drop out of hyperspace well before reaching the shield.

    Rogue 1 also buggered up this concept when Vader's ISD jumped into the battle right outside the Scarif shield when the Rebels were escaping. TLJ buggered it again when the FO fleet arrived above Dqar close enough to be seen with the naked eye in full daylight (eye roll, but it was a neat shot so whatever).

    Point is, the people writing these scripts don't care about lore, just paychecks ... which is why I don't care to see any more films. The EU novels are where to find the good SW stories.
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