For starters comparing Revan vs Traya is not apples to apples.
Traya was an earned character while Revan was for the most part a P2P character. The fact that Traya was an earned character meant that on shards less than 2 years old she was dominant but not ‘unbeatable’. zzEP did fine vs Traya in the sense that most Traya teams could be beat by zzEP provided you got the killorder right and staggered your speed to line up your moves. Add to this Bastilla who propelled the Jedi faction into the top 20s with an amazing 4* leader ability and I’m somewhat perplexed that you rekon the Jedi Faction needed a ‘further boost’ with Revan?
Name me one DS character (apart from Traya) that has a zeta as good as Bastilla that can get you into top 50 at a mere 5*??
If your look at swgoh arena stats atm (Top 10) - Revan is over 50% then Traya and then EP, so less than 2 weeks out the gate that single character has demolished arena.
Traya never demolished arena b/c of the mechanism underlying how she was obtained - ie: months of HSR and you slowly noticed her popping up over time. The move from zzEP to Traya was a gradual progression and didn’t throw arena too much out of whack.
If you looked at swgoh meta before Revan it was Traya, Bastilla then zEP - ie: balanced.
Jedi faction did not “need” Revan.
And please don’t start with the “DS meta has run arena for nearly 9 months”...i mean seriously u wanna talk about how many years we had to live with Chaze/Wiggs and Titans thumping DS over and over in arena?
If your going to start on the premise that this was a diverse meta and was balanced before Revan came in, then we're just going to have to agree to disagree. That's laughably inaccurate and simply not true.
On my shard, and I'm certainly not alone on this face, Traya leads entirely made up the top 40. Oh there would be some sprinkling of Bastilla leads and Palpatine leads in the 30s now and again. But there was no argument who was the dominate force that made up the Meta. Now every shard is different, but stats/data simply do not back up the assertion that the Meta was balanced. It was not. Bastila never made the Jedi Meta, she made them competitive yes. But all she really did was hasten Palpatine's departure - Which didn't really matter anyways because by the time Sith players were already transitioning into Traya.
Again, I don't see what DS/Sith players have to complain about, you've been Meta for most of the year and still strong in the Meta now. CG has made it clear they want arena to have a rock/paper/scissors element to it. You can't have that where's there's only one dominating force in the Meta, which the Sith Triumvirate is.
Ok. Then you would agree that any jedi rework or release will be reinforcing Revan meta I guess. And he's op, it doesn't even take very good toons or synergies for him to dominate the arena.
So we're again back to complaining about speculation and baseless rumors? This is like the General Kenobi zeta rumor earlier in this thread. Are the Jedi having a rework? Let me know when this is actual reality.
I won't lie, I'd like to see Mace Windu get a rework. The fact that CG has to give him a limited time ridiculously OP bonus in TW just to convince people to try to use him kind of speaks volumes the state of the Jedi roster.
And I disagree, Raven does need good Jedi toons with synergy to be good in arena, if I go in there with a team made up of Revan, Kit Fisto, Ima-gun Di, Jedi Knight Guardian and fricken Unduli. Somehow I don't feel I would be doing as well in Arena.
Ok. Then you would agree that any jedi rework or release will be reinforcing Revan meta I guess. And he's op, it doesn't even take very good toons or synergies for him to dominate the arena.
So we're again back to complaining about speculation and baseless rumors? This is like the General Kenobi zeta rumor earlier in this thread. Are the Jedi having a rework? Let me know when this is actual reality.
It's not really "baseless." CG has not said one way or the other, but it is a logical conclusion. Doesn't mean they *will* do it, but with the focus on TCW it is not baseless to assume that we will get some reworks or some new Jedi (and Clones and Seppies).
Just make sure you have your 5 old republic toons to 7* and you'll get him yourself and you'll be OP. Then you'll realize he isn't OP and just is different to battle against.
By the time he comes back, there will be a new meta to take his place.
It's not really "baseless." CG has not said one way or the other, but it is a logical conclusion. Doesn't mean they *will* do it, but with the focus on TCW it is not baseless to assume that we will get some reworks or some new Jedi (and Clones and Seppies).
Okay, then let me know when this is a sure thing that's actually going to happen. But players preemptively complaining about something when there's really no evidence to suggest that's it's happening I think is rather silly.
Ok. Then you would agree that any jedi rework or release will be reinforcing Revan meta I guess. And he's op, it doesn't even take very good toons or synergies for him to dominate the arena.
So we're again back to complaining about speculation and baseless rumors? This is like the General Kenobi zeta rumor earlier in this thread. Are the Jedi having a rework? Let me know when this is actual reality.
I won't lie, I'd like to see Mace Windu get a rework. The fact that CG has to give him a limited time ridiculously OP bonus in TW just to convince people to try to use him kind of speaks volumes the state of the Jedi roster.
And I disagree, Raven does need good Jedi toons with synergy to be good in arena, if I go in there with a team made up of Revan, Kit Fisto, Ima-gun Di, Jedi Knight Guardian and fricken Unduli. Somehow I don't feel I would be doing as well in Arena.
I don't do rumor, I didn't claim there is a jedi rework down the line, I just said it will play into Revan meta when a new jedi toon is released and if jedi's got a revamp. This is just a logical conclusion, what don't you agree with it?
My claim that it doesn't take very good toons or synergies are based on the general opinion that besides Revan there aren't any significantly good or op jedis, not that you'll throw in any toon with him and you'll be good to go. You're strawmaning the argument.
Here's your contribution to that claim:
" The Jedi roster is rather lackluster, they simply don’t have the same diversity in potential as the sith roster brings. There’s a reason the Jedi haven’t been in the Meta for the last 2 years. "
If you are gonna comeback with a refuttal please base it on my opinions that I shared across the topic. The summary:
- Revan is op
- Traya is op
- Release of such op toons with overarching skills with hardly any drawback is hurting the game in the long run and rendering majority of our rosters obsolete.
It's not really "baseless." CG has not said one way or the other, but it is a logical conclusion. Doesn't mean they *will* do it, but with the focus on TCW it is not baseless to assume that we will get some reworks or some new Jedi (and Clones and Seppies).
Okay, then let me know when this is a sure thing that's actually going to happen. But players preemptively complaining about something when there's really no evidence to suggest that's it's happening I think is rather silly.
Maybe there's a difference between complaint and an observation for those who understand what nuance is.
I rarely post on these forums or read things from others. I’ve been here since day one and there were always people who wanted “Jedi” to be arena strong and arena worthy.
Now that they are..people still aren’t happy. It doesn’t really matter if he is OP or not...this is the fact: people including myself spent $200 and more to get him and I wouldn’t have spent that much on a novelty toon. For me this game arena is what I like the most. I rather arena over ships/raids/events etc.
Ea is never gonna nerf a toon that was put behind a high paywall. You can argue Revan is the most exspencive toon ever released. So many people bought him that infact he has passed up Traya on the meta report.
If ea/cg was to nerf him then people will be scepticle to spend that much again in the future.
Like all nerf “add toon name here” posts in the past...this one will also fade away into the hundreds of others that were asking the same thing but just for another toon.
Those wanting nerfs....good luck on your endeavors but I honestly don’t see what you’re asking for to happen.
It's obvious that you don't read other's posts at all. There is no call for nerf Revan in the topic. I haven't seen a single topic that asks for a nerf either.
You’re right. No one is calling for a Revan nerf.....they’re just complaining about him being “OP”.
So why complain anyways if the underlining complaint is about Revans OPness???? Sounds like people want him nerfed to me...they are just not coming out and saying the word “nerf” is how I’m taking it.
It just seems that the people really upset are the ones that are still using Traya and missed the Revan boat. So to stay as competitive as they can in arena they have to resort to skipping Revan teams while climbing until they hit the Revan walls, then they are forced to fight a team that gives them trouble and isn’t easily beatable like a Traya mirror match would be. I know if that would be my case I certainly would feel the need to also lend my complaints on the forums. But honestly what good would that do? The devs aren’t gonna change anything with the most expensive toon ever released on this game.
Metas change...That’s the game. All you can do is stay ahead of the curve as best as you can.
I have 32 revans on my shard. The regular top 5 guys who don't have revan....still finish top 5. It's nobody's fault but your own if you lack the mods and strategies to compete. If you don't care enough to gain said mods and strategies, you shouldn't be reaping the rewards anyway.
Maybe there's a difference between complaint and an observation for those who understand what nuance is.
There's observation and then there's literally complaining. the original poster in this thread brought up GK zeta rumour as another reason to complain about Revan. Whether you were making an observation regarding a Jedi rework - I'm just saying it's silly to use speculation and rumor as some sort of valid point. When there's no evidence so far to suggest it's actually going to happen.
I have 32 revans on my shard. The regular top 5 guys who don't have revan....still finish top 5. It's nobody's fault but your own if you lack the mods and strategies to compete. If you don't care enough to gain said mods and strategies, you shouldn't be reaping the rewards anyway.
DO you know if maybe people are swapping out mods so people can climb? That happens regularly in our shard chat
Ok. Then you would agree that any jedi rework or release will be reinforcing Revan meta I guess. And he's op, it doesn't even take very good toons or synergies for him to dominate the arena.
So we're again back to complaining about speculation and baseless rumors? This is like the General Kenobi zeta rumor earlier in this thread. Are the Jedi having a rework? Let me know when this is actual reality.
I won't lie, I'd like to see Mace Windu get a rework. The fact that CG has to give him a limited time ridiculously OP bonus in TW just to convince people to try to use him kind of speaks volumes the state of the Jedi roster.
And I disagree, Raven does need good Jedi toons with synergy to be good in arena, if I go in there with a team made up of Revan, Kit Fisto, Ima-gun Di, Jedi Knight Guardian and fricken Unduli. Somehow I don't feel I would be doing as well in Arena.
I don't do rumor, I didn't claim there is a jedi rework down the line, I just said it will play into Revan meta when a new jedi toon is released and if jedi's got a revamp. This is just a logical conclusion, what don't you agree with it?
Only if the newly released or reworded jedi are an improvement over the current, non-reworked jedi. That is if they're getting a revamp in the first place.
So what are we talking about here? Moreover, why is something that might not even happen, or won't have a significant impact on revan teams relevant to this discussion? There might also be a grievous rework comming, wich might be a hard counter vs revan teams, does that make revan any less or anymore OP currently?
My claim that it doesn't take very good toons or synergies are based on the general opinion that besides Revan there aren't any significantly good or op jedis, not that you'll throw in any toon with him and you'll be good to go. You're strawmaning the argument.
You should have not mentioned synergies because that just doesnt make sense, a revan team is much, much better supported by toons that synergise well. I'd also argue that jedi weren't exactly in a bad spot prior to revan's release either. If revan is OP, but GK, hermit and GMY aren't even "significantly good", where does that leave us?
- Revan is op
- Traya is op
- Release of such op toons with overarching skills with hardly any drawback is hurting the game in the long run and rendering majority of our rosters obsolete.
The majority of our rosters weren't obsolete before? Is this a recent problem? Or are you saying that any toons released in the past 3 years that have been meta changing was a mistake? I'm just trying to figure out what poit you're trying to make.
OP toons are being released since forever, the one pushed it a bit further than the other. The only problem i see with that happening is, as mentioned before, the skill descriptions getting way out of hand. Other than that the game thrives on powercreep. Would i be happy with a less OP toon if said toon still became meta? Yes, for sure. But if Revan was on par with chewy i would have been bummed out.
- Revan is op
- Traya is op
- Release of such op toons with overarching skills with hardly any drawback is hurting the game in the long run and rendering majority of our rosters obsolete.
Of course they are. The devs need to give the spenders a reason to keep spending. If you have your entire roster at 7* 85, and they rework an old toon, they make ZERO off of you. If they release a new marquee toon that is subpar, they likely make ZERO off of you. If they release a journey character that is subpar, they make ZERO off of you.
It's not just SWGOH - it's pretty much any game that isn't strictly FTP. You need to keep catering to the top of the pile, because all they have to do is play the new content. Does it alienate some of the casual players? Yeah. But they're not the ones with the credit cards out.
Ok. Then you would agree that any jedi rework or release will be reinforcing Revan meta I guess. And he's op, it doesn't even take very good toons or synergies for him to dominate the arena.
So we're again back to complaining about speculation and baseless rumors? This is like the General Kenobi zeta rumor earlier in this thread. Are the Jedi having a rework? Let me know when this is actual reality.
I won't lie, I'd like to see Mace Windu get a rework. The fact that CG has to give him a limited time ridiculously OP bonus in TW just to convince people to try to use him kind of speaks volumes the state of the Jedi roster.
And I disagree, Raven does need good Jedi toons with synergy to be good in arena, if I go in there with a team made up of Revan, Kit Fisto, Ima-gun Di, Jedi Knight Guardian and fricken Unduli. Somehow I don't feel I would be doing as well in Arena.
I don't do rumor, I didn't claim there is a jedi rework down the line, I just said it will play into Revan meta when a new jedi toon is released and if jedi's got a revamp. This is just a logical conclusion, what don't you agree with it?
Only if the newly released or reworded jedi are an improvement over the current, non-reworked jedi. That is if they're getting a revamp in the first place.
So what are we talking about here? Moreover, why is something that might not even happen, or won't have a significant impact on revan teams relevant to this discussion? There might also be a grievous rework comming, wich might be a hard counter vs revan teams, does that make revan any less or anymore OP currently?
My claim that it doesn't take very good toons or synergies are based on the general opinion that besides Revan there aren't any significantly good or op jedis, not that you'll throw in any toon with him and you'll be good to go. You're strawmaning the argument.
You should have not mentioned synergies because that just doesnt make sense, a revan team is much, much better supported by toons that synergise well. I'd also argue that jedi weren't exactly in a bad spot prior to revan's release either. If revan is OP, but GK, hermit and GMY aren't even "significantly good", where does that leave us?
- Revan is op
- Traya is op
- Release of such op toons with overarching skills with hardly any drawback is hurting the game in the long run and rendering majority of our rosters obsolete.
The majority of our rosters weren't obsolete before? Is this a recent problem? Or are you saying that any toons released in the past 3 years that have been meta changing was a mistake? I'm just trying to figure out what poit you're trying to make.
OP toons are being released since forever, the one pushed it a bit further than the other. The only problem i see with that happening is, as mentioned before, the skill descriptions getting way out of hand. Other than that the game thrives on powercreep. Would i be happy with a less OP toon if said toon still became meta? Yes, for sure. But if Revan was on par with chewy i would have been bummed out.
So we are basically in agreement. My point is what you see as "the only problem". Power creep is the nature of this brand of game design. There's the speed of power creep and there's the acceleration of power creep. Now we have acceleration of it.
I've seen a similar scenario play out in CG's previous game btw. They accelerated the creep to such a degree that the gap between f2p and whales widened resulting in %90 of the playerbase gradually dropping the game.
If the release of Revan is an insular event (in terms of both the release method and the design) that will only repeat on few occasions, I'm fine with it. If and when it forms a new design norm on future releases I'm gonna drop the game.
revan is not op, just look at metareport, he is only at 10% because the rest of his team make up for the remaining 70% of the report and traya is 10% and rest of her team makes up to 10%. nope, revan is balanced. such troll.
Ok. Then you would agree that any jedi rework or release will be reinforcing Revan meta I guess. And he's op, it doesn't even take very good toons or synergies for him to dominate the arena.
So we're again back to complaining about speculation and baseless rumors? This is like the General Kenobi zeta rumor earlier in this thread. Are the Jedi having a rework? Let me know when this is actual reality.
I won't lie, I'd like to see Mace Windu get a rework. The fact that CG has to give him a limited time ridiculously OP bonus in TW just to convince people to try to use him kind of speaks volumes the state of the Jedi roster.
And I disagree, Raven does need good Jedi toons with synergy to be good in arena, if I go in there with a team made up of Revan, Kit Fisto, Ima-gun Di, Jedi Knight Guardian and fricken Unduli. Somehow I don't feel I would be doing as well in Arena.
I don't do rumor, I didn't claim there is a jedi rework down the line, I just said it will play into Revan meta when a new jedi toon is released and if jedi's got a revamp. This is just a logical conclusion, what don't you agree with it?
Only if the newly released or reworded jedi are an improvement over the current, non-reworked jedi. That is if they're getting a revamp in the first place.
So what are we talking about here? Moreover, why is something that might not even happen, or won't have a significant impact on revan teams relevant to this discussion? There might also be a grievous rework comming, wich might be a hard counter vs revan teams, does that make revan any less or anymore OP currently?
My claim that it doesn't take very good toons or synergies are based on the general opinion that besides Revan there aren't any significantly good or op jedis, not that you'll throw in any toon with him and you'll be good to go. You're strawmaning the argument.
You should have not mentioned synergies because that just doesnt make sense, a revan team is much, much better supported by toons that synergise well. I'd also argue that jedi weren't exactly in a bad spot prior to revan's release either. If revan is OP, but GK, hermit and GMY aren't even "significantly good", where does that leave us?
- Revan is op
- Traya is op
- Release of such op toons with overarching skills with hardly any drawback is hurting the game in the long run and rendering majority of our rosters obsolete.
The majority of our rosters weren't obsolete before? Is this a recent problem? Or are you saying that any toons released in the past 3 years that have been meta changing was a mistake? I'm just trying to figure out what poit you're trying to make.
OP toons are being released since forever, the one pushed it a bit further than the other. The only problem i see with that happening is, as mentioned before, the skill descriptions getting way out of hand. Other than that the game thrives on powercreep. Would i be happy with a less OP toon if said toon still became meta? Yes, for sure. But if Revan was on par with chewy i would have been bummed out.
So we are basically in agreement. My point is what you see as "the only problem". Power creep is the nature of this brand of game design. There's the speed of power creep and there's the acceleration of power creep. Now we have acceleration of it.
I've seen a similar scenario play out in CG's previous game btw. They accelerated the creep to such a degree that the gap between f2p and whales widened resulting in %90 of the playerbase gradually dropping the game.
If the release of Revan is an insular event that will only repeat on few occasions, I'm fine with it. If and when it forms a new design norm on future releases I'm gonna drop the game.
This is hardly the first meta breaking character release, so what are we talking about here? The fact that it keeps getting more difficult (or more expensive) to get the latest and greatest, or whether or not revan as a toon is bad for the game?
These are separate issues imo.
Ok. Then you would agree that any jedi rework or release will be reinforcing Revan meta I guess. And he's op, it doesn't even take very good toons or synergies for him to dominate the arena.
So we're again back to complaining about speculation and baseless rumors? This is like the General Kenobi zeta rumor earlier in this thread. Are the Jedi having a rework? Let me know when this is actual reality.
I won't lie, I'd like to see Mace Windu get a rework. The fact that CG has to give him a limited time ridiculously OP bonus in TW just to convince people to try to use him kind of speaks volumes the state of the Jedi roster.
And I disagree, Raven does need good Jedi toons with synergy to be good in arena, if I go in there with a team made up of Revan, Kit Fisto, Ima-gun Di, Jedi Knight Guardian and fricken Unduli. Somehow I don't feel I would be doing as well in Arena.
I don't do rumor, I didn't claim there is a jedi rework down the line, I just said it will play into Revan meta when a new jedi toon is released and if jedi's got a revamp. This is just a logical conclusion, what don't you agree with it?
Only if the newly released or reworded jedi are an improvement over the current, non-reworked jedi. That is if they're getting a revamp in the first place.
So what are we talking about here? Moreover, why is something that might not even happen, or won't have a significant impact on revan teams relevant to this discussion? There might also be a grievous rework comming, wich might be a hard counter vs revan teams, does that make revan any less or anymore OP currently?
My claim that it doesn't take very good toons or synergies are based on the general opinion that besides Revan there aren't any significantly good or op jedis, not that you'll throw in any toon with him and you'll be good to go. You're strawmaning the argument.
You should have not mentioned synergies because that just doesnt make sense, a revan team is much, much better supported by toons that synergise well. I'd also argue that jedi weren't exactly in a bad spot prior to revan's release either. If revan is OP, but GK, hermit and GMY aren't even "significantly good", where does that leave us?
- Revan is op
- Traya is op
- Release of such op toons with overarching skills with hardly any drawback is hurting the game in the long run and rendering majority of our rosters obsolete.
The majority of our rosters weren't obsolete before? Is this a recent problem? Or are you saying that any toons released in the past 3 years that have been meta changing was a mistake? I'm just trying to figure out what poit you're trying to make.
OP toons are being released since forever, the one pushed it a bit further than the other. The only problem i see with that happening is, as mentioned before, the skill descriptions getting way out of hand. Other than that the game thrives on powercreep. Would i be happy with a less OP toon if said toon still became meta? Yes, for sure. But if Revan was on par with chewy i would have been bummed out.
So we are basically in agreement. My point is what you see as "the only problem". Power creep is the nature of this brand of game design. There's the speed of power creep and there's the acceleration of power creep. Now we have acceleration of it.
I've seen a similar scenario play out in CG's previous game btw. They accelerated the creep to such a degree that the gap between f2p and whales widened resulting in %90 of the playerbase gradually dropping the game.
If the release of Revan is an insular event that will only repeat on few occasions, I'm fine with it. If and when it forms a new design norm on future releases I'm gonna drop the game.
This is hardly the first meta breaking character release, so what are we talking about here? The fact that it keeps getting more difficult (or more expensive) to get the latest and greatest, or whether or not revan as a toon is bad for the game?
These are separate issues imo.
You already said it yourself. Too much of everything packed into one toon...=acceleration of power creep.
Ok. Then you would agree that any jedi rework or release will be reinforcing Revan meta I guess. And he's op, it doesn't even take very good toons or synergies for him to dominate the arena.
So we're again back to complaining about speculation and baseless rumors? This is like the General Kenobi zeta rumor earlier in this thread. Are the Jedi having a rework? Let me know when this is actual reality.
I won't lie, I'd like to see Mace Windu get a rework. The fact that CG has to give him a limited time ridiculously OP bonus in TW just to convince people to try to use him kind of speaks volumes the state of the Jedi roster.
And I disagree, Raven does need good Jedi toons with synergy to be good in arena, if I go in there with a team made up of Revan, Kit Fisto, Ima-gun Di, Jedi Knight Guardian and fricken Unduli. Somehow I don't feel I would be doing as well in Arena.
I don't do rumor, I didn't claim there is a jedi rework down the line, I just said it will play into Revan meta when a new jedi toon is released and if jedi's got a revamp. This is just a logical conclusion, what don't you agree with it?
Only if the newly released or reworded jedi are an improvement over the current, non-reworked jedi. That is if they're getting a revamp in the first place.
So what are we talking about here? Moreover, why is something that might not even happen, or won't have a significant impact on revan teams relevant to this discussion? There might also be a grievous rework comming, wich might be a hard counter vs revan teams, does that make revan any less or anymore OP currently?
My claim that it doesn't take very good toons or synergies are based on the general opinion that besides Revan there aren't any significantly good or op jedis, not that you'll throw in any toon with him and you'll be good to go. You're strawmaning the argument.
You should have not mentioned synergies because that just doesnt make sense, a revan team is much, much better supported by toons that synergise well. I'd also argue that jedi weren't exactly in a bad spot prior to revan's release either. If revan is OP, but GK, hermit and GMY aren't even "significantly good", where does that leave us?
- Revan is op
- Traya is op
- Release of such op toons with overarching skills with hardly any drawback is hurting the game in the long run and rendering majority of our rosters obsolete.
The majority of our rosters weren't obsolete before? Is this a recent problem? Or are you saying that any toons released in the past 3 years that have been meta changing was a mistake? I'm just trying to figure out what poit you're trying to make.
OP toons are being released since forever, the one pushed it a bit further than the other. The only problem i see with that happening is, as mentioned before, the skill descriptions getting way out of hand. Other than that the game thrives on powercreep. Would i be happy with a less OP toon if said toon still became meta? Yes, for sure. But if Revan was on par with chewy i would have been bummed out.
So we are basically in agreement. My point is what you see as "the only problem". Power creep is the nature of this brand of game design. There's the speed of power creep and there's the acceleration of power creep. Now we have acceleration of it.
I've seen a similar scenario play out in CG's previous game btw. They accelerated the creep to such a degree that the gap between f2p and whales widened resulting in %90 of the playerbase gradually dropping the game.
If the release of Revan is an insular event that will only repeat on few occasions, I'm fine with it. If and when it forms a new design norm on future releases I'm gonna drop the game.
This is hardly the first meta breaking character release, so what are we talking about here? The fact that it keeps getting more difficult (or more expensive) to get the latest and greatest, or whether or not revan as a toon is bad for the game?
These are separate issues imo.
You already said it yourself. Too much of everything packed into one toon...=acceleration of power creep.
My issue with that isn't the powercreep aspect of it, but it's needlessly complex. Take bounty hunters for example, definately not OP, ridiculously complex kits.
Obviously powercreep and the increasingly complex kits are connected, but i feel like they're going overboard with the complexity to achieve the desired powercreep. Eventually that will backfire, if it hasn't already.
Ok. Then you would agree that any jedi rework or release will be reinforcing Revan meta I guess. And he's op, it doesn't even take very good toons or synergies for him to dominate the arena.
So we're again back to complaining about speculation and baseless rumors? This is like the General Kenobi zeta rumor earlier in this thread. Are the Jedi having a rework? Let me know when this is actual reality.
I won't lie, I'd like to see Mace Windu get a rework. The fact that CG has to give him a limited time ridiculously OP bonus in TW just to convince people to try to use him kind of speaks volumes the state of the Jedi roster.
And I disagree, Raven does need good Jedi toons with synergy to be good in arena, if I go in there with a team made up of Revan, Kit Fisto, Ima-gun Di, Jedi Knight Guardian and fricken Unduli. Somehow I don't feel I would be doing as well in Arena.
I don't do rumor, I didn't claim there is a jedi rework down the line, I just said it will play into Revan meta when a new jedi toon is released and if jedi's got a revamp. This is just a logical conclusion, what don't you agree with it?
Only if the newly released or reworded jedi are an improvement over the current, non-reworked jedi. That is if they're getting a revamp in the first place.
So what are we talking about here? Moreover, why is something that might not even happen, or won't have a significant impact on revan teams relevant to this discussion? There might also be a grievous rework comming, wich might be a hard counter vs revan teams, does that make revan any less or anymore OP currently?
My claim that it doesn't take very good toons or synergies are based on the general opinion that besides Revan there aren't any significantly good or op jedis, not that you'll throw in any toon with him and you'll be good to go. You're strawmaning the argument.
You should have not mentioned synergies because that just doesnt make sense, a revan team is much, much better supported by toons that synergise well. I'd also argue that jedi weren't exactly in a bad spot prior to revan's release either. If revan is OP, but GK, hermit and GMY aren't even "significantly good", where does that leave us?
- Revan is op
- Traya is op
- Release of such op toons with overarching skills with hardly any drawback is hurting the game in the long run and rendering majority of our rosters obsolete.
The majority of our rosters weren't obsolete before? Is this a recent problem? Or are you saying that any toons released in the past 3 years that have been meta changing was a mistake? I'm just trying to figure out what poit you're trying to make.
OP toons are being released since forever, the one pushed it a bit further than the other. The only problem i see with that happening is, as mentioned before, the skill descriptions getting way out of hand. Other than that the game thrives on powercreep. Would i be happy with a less OP toon if said toon still became meta? Yes, for sure. But if Revan was on par with chewy i would have been bummed out.
So we are basically in agreement. My point is what you see as "the only problem". Power creep is the nature of this brand of game design. There's the speed of power creep and there's the acceleration of power creep. Now we have acceleration of it.
I've seen a similar scenario play out in CG's previous game btw. They accelerated the creep to such a degree that the gap between f2p and whales widened resulting in %90 of the playerbase gradually dropping the game.
If the release of Revan is an insular event that will only repeat on few occasions, I'm fine with it. If and when it forms a new design norm on future releases I'm gonna drop the game.
This is hardly the first meta breaking character release, so what are we talking about here? The fact that it keeps getting more difficult (or more expensive) to get the latest and greatest, or whether or not revan as a toon is bad for the game?
These are separate issues imo.
You already said it yourself. Too much of everything packed into one toon...=acceleration of power creep.
My issue with that isn't the powercreep aspect of it, but it's needlessly complex. Take bounty hunters for example, definately not OP, ridiculously complex kits.
Obviously powercreep and the increasingly complex kits are connected, but i feel like they're going overboard with the complexity to achieve the desired powercreep. Eventually that will backfire, if it hasn't already.
It's backfired in terms of the AI, which can't manage the complex kits. The new BH are a joke to defeat in arena because the AI does not focus on fulfilling the contract and activating payouts.
My issue with that isn't the powercreep aspect of it, but it's needlessly complex. Take bounty hunters for example, definately not OP, ridiculously complex kits.
Obviously powercreep and the increasingly complex kits are connected, but i feel like they're going overboard with the complexity to achieve the desired powercreep. Eventually that will backfire, if it hasn't already.
Meh, bounty hunters are not so complex if you take a closer look at it... they were normal but then they just got contract and payout.
Anyway, CG raises the bar with complexity of characters. At first they throw anti-light side character like traya and later they want to overcome it. Right now I can't even imagine how future characters will look like if current don't get nerfs/changes/balance.
Arena is just as diverse as when Traya was the only meta. Now Revan and her beat each other. The other teams that snuck their way in before still do so. Such as rex leads, NS, imperials, and now Darth Maul can be added to that. I like that Revan is pushing out Bastilla, it makes more room for EP lead. If you haven't noticed, Revan directly counters Bastilla. Please stop being so negative and whiny.
Ok. Then you would agree that any jedi rework or release will be reinforcing Revan meta I guess. And he's op, it doesn't even take very good toons or synergies for him to dominate the arena.
So we're again back to complaining about speculation and baseless rumors? This is like the General Kenobi zeta rumor earlier in this thread. Are the Jedi having a rework? Let me know when this is actual reality.
I won't lie, I'd like to see Mace Windu get a rework. The fact that CG has to give him a limited time ridiculously OP bonus in TW just to convince people to try to use him kind of speaks volumes the state of the Jedi roster.
And I disagree, Raven does need good Jedi toons with synergy to be good in arena, if I go in there with a team made up of Revan, Kit Fisto, Ima-gun Di, Jedi Knight Guardian and fricken Unduli. Somehow I don't feel I would be doing as well in Arena.
I don't do rumor, I didn't claim there is a jedi rework down the line, I just said it will play into Revan meta when a new jedi toon is released and if jedi's got a revamp. This is just a logical conclusion, what don't you agree with it?
Only if the newly released or reworded jedi are an improvement over the current, non-reworked jedi. That is if they're getting a revamp in the first place.
So what are we talking about here? Moreover, why is something that might not even happen, or won't have a significant impact on revan teams relevant to this discussion? There might also be a grievous rework comming, wich might be a hard counter vs revan teams, does that make revan any less or anymore OP currently?
My claim that it doesn't take very good toons or synergies are based on the general opinion that besides Revan there aren't any significantly good or op jedis, not that you'll throw in any toon with him and you'll be good to go. You're strawmaning the argument.
You should have not mentioned synergies because that just doesnt make sense, a revan team is much, much better supported by toons that synergise well. I'd also argue that jedi weren't exactly in a bad spot prior to revan's release either. If revan is OP, but GK, hermit and GMY aren't even "significantly good", where does that leave us?
- Revan is op
- Traya is op
- Release of such op toons with overarching skills with hardly any drawback is hurting the game in the long run and rendering majority of our rosters obsolete.
The majority of our rosters weren't obsolete before? Is this a recent problem? Or are you saying that any toons released in the past 3 years that have been meta changing was a mistake? I'm just trying to figure out what poit you're trying to make.
OP toons are being released since forever, the one pushed it a bit further than the other. The only problem i see with that happening is, as mentioned before, the skill descriptions getting way out of hand. Other than that the game thrives on powercreep. Would i be happy with a less OP toon if said toon still became meta? Yes, for sure. But if Revan was on par with chewy i would have been bummed out.
So we are basically in agreement. My point is what you see as "the only problem". Power creep is the nature of this brand of game design. There's the speed of power creep and there's the acceleration of power creep. Now we have acceleration of it.
I've seen a similar scenario play out in CG's previous game btw. They accelerated the creep to such a degree that the gap between f2p and whales widened resulting in %90 of the playerbase gradually dropping the game.
If the release of Revan is an insular event (in terms of both the release method and the design) that will only repeat on few occasions, I'm fine with it. If and when it forms a new design norm on future releases I'm gonna drop the game.
What other CG game? SWGOH is the only game they list on their website?
Ok. Then you would agree that any jedi rework or release will be reinforcing Revan meta I guess. And he's op, it doesn't even take very good toons or synergies for him to dominate the arena.
So we're again back to complaining about speculation and baseless rumors? This is like the General Kenobi zeta rumor earlier in this thread. Are the Jedi having a rework? Let me know when this is actual reality.
I won't lie, I'd like to see Mace Windu get a rework. The fact that CG has to give him a limited time ridiculously OP bonus in TW just to convince people to try to use him kind of speaks volumes the state of the Jedi roster.
And I disagree, Raven does need good Jedi toons with synergy to be good in arena, if I go in there with a team made up of Revan, Kit Fisto, Ima-gun Di, Jedi Knight Guardian and fricken Unduli. Somehow I don't feel I would be doing as well in Arena.
I don't do rumor, I didn't claim there is a jedi rework down the line, I just said it will play into Revan meta when a new jedi toon is released and if jedi's got a revamp. This is just a logical conclusion, what don't you agree with it?
Only if the newly released or reworded jedi are an improvement over the current, non-reworked jedi. That is if they're getting a revamp in the first place.
So what are we talking about here? Moreover, why is something that might not even happen, or won't have a significant impact on revan teams relevant to this discussion? There might also be a grievous rework comming, wich might be a hard counter vs revan teams, does that make revan any less or anymore OP currently?
My claim that it doesn't take very good toons or synergies are based on the general opinion that besides Revan there aren't any significantly good or op jedis, not that you'll throw in any toon with him and you'll be good to go. You're strawmaning the argument.
You should have not mentioned synergies because that just doesnt make sense, a revan team is much, much better supported by toons that synergise well. I'd also argue that jedi weren't exactly in a bad spot prior to revan's release either. If revan is OP, but GK, hermit and GMY aren't even "significantly good", where does that leave us?
- Revan is op
- Traya is op
- Release of such op toons with overarching skills with hardly any drawback is hurting the game in the long run and rendering majority of our rosters obsolete.
The majority of our rosters weren't obsolete before? Is this a recent problem? Or are you saying that any toons released in the past 3 years that have been meta changing was a mistake? I'm just trying to figure out what poit you're trying to make.
OP toons are being released since forever, the one pushed it a bit further than the other. The only problem i see with that happening is, as mentioned before, the skill descriptions getting way out of hand. Other than that the game thrives on powercreep. Would i be happy with a less OP toon if said toon still became meta? Yes, for sure. But if Revan was on par with chewy i would have been bummed out.
So we are basically in agreement. My point is what you see as "the only problem". Power creep is the nature of this brand of game design. There's the speed of power creep and there's the acceleration of power creep. Now we have acceleration of it.
I've seen a similar scenario play out in CG's previous game btw. They accelerated the creep to such a degree that the gap between f2p and whales widened resulting in %90 of the playerbase gradually dropping the game.
If the release of Revan is an insular event (in terms of both the release method and the design) that will only repeat on few occasions, I'm fine with it. If and when it forms a new design norm on future releases I'm gonna drop the game.
What other CG game? SWGOH is the only game they list on their website?
Hehe, I wouldn't guess why they would do that. It's Heroes of Dragon Age. Many of the core crew here got moved from there including the lead dev. Our cheat/exploit guy Lucifer's Daddy was the 2nd lead dev there. And before EA acquired them to develop HODA, they made 2 facebook based crpgs which was kinda popular. Never played those ones, just know it from HODA friends.
Guys, loving the banter! - Great to see such a bustling thread! - I love all your points I think everyone has made reasonably constructive argument back and forth. Clearly their is plenty of support for and against Revan being OP.
My original message, and remember I am a little BIAS here because I don't have REVAN, I have just obtained Traya after a long hard 8 month guild effort slog, it was evident that My Treya lead Sith squad was getting pulverised by Revan, who virtually wiped out Traya in about 20 seconds. My initial thoughts after an 8 month grind was ****, why have I spent all this F in time getting this char! - Revans release was a slap in the face for the thousands of players and guilds still working to get her.
Since this post, I have played around with my team and I now run a EMP P lead, with treya DN, Sion and Thrawn. The AI, still hunts and slaughters treya which is annoying, but I am finding a small ray of light. Its R N G based a lot of the time, and a bit of luck.
I still drop 20 slots over night and the team gets battered on defence by CLS / CHEWI and Revan teams. So to sum up, I have accepted Revan, the game must evolve and new content must play its course.
However my original message was that I thought it bad of CG to offer little consideration to players like me who were finishing or still on their traya journey to just render her worthless VS revan.
Furthermore, to an injury to already mortal wound. CG's ability to turn arena around on its head just when you have spent months farming s somewhat a speciality of theirs!!!! having just got my Geo's to g12, the new Anakin ship with Windu lead obliterates them.
So its the Revan situation all over again!
The Rule I have discovered with this game is if you don't pay, then as far as PVP is concerned gentle farm everything and stock pile everything because you can not anticipate their next move.
Guys, loving the banter! - Great to see such a bustling thread! - I love all your points I think everyone has made reasonably constructive argument back and forth. Clearly their is plenty of support for and against Revan being OP.
My original message, and remember I am a little BIAS here because I don't have REVAN, I have just obtained Traya after a long hard 8 month guild effort slog, it was evident that My Treya lead Sith squad was getting pulverised by Revan, who virtually wiped out Traya in about 20 seconds. My initial thoughts after an 8 month grind was ****, why have I spent all this F in time getting this char! - Revans release was a slap in the face for the thousands of players and guilds still working to get her.
Since this post, I have played around with my team and I now run a EMP P lead, with treya DN, Sion and Thrawn. The AI, still hunts and slaughters treya which is annoying, but I am finding a small ray of light. Its R N G based a lot of the time, and a bit of luck.
I still drop 20 slots over night and the team gets battered on defence by CLS / CHEWI and Revan teams. So to sum up, I have accepted Revan, the game must evolve and new content must play its course.
However my original message was that I thought it bad of CG to offer little consideration to players like me who were finishing or still on their traya journey to just render her worthless VS revan.
Furthermore, to an injury to already mortal wound. CG's ability to turn arena around on its head just when you have spent months farming s somewhat a speciality of theirs!!!! having just got my Geo's to g12, the new Anakin ship with Windu lead obliterates them.
So its the Revan situation all over again!
The Rule I have discovered with this game is if you don't pay, then as far as PVP is concerned gentle farm everything and stock pile everything because you can not anticipate their next move.
It amazes me that people still spend money on this game to be honest. Spend money and time to build a team and then 3-4 months that team is no good anymore. Spend more money and time building another team and again, 3-4 months later that team is no good and repeat the process. It's mind baffling that the player base continues to let it happen to begin with.
It reminds me of women that are in an abusive relationship that keep telling themselves is going to get better. The thing is, it's not and one day that woman grabs a gun and kills the abuser. Just my take on CG's inability to understand balance.
What's the alternative? a stale meta for months on end? True balance with most teams being equal to eachother and mods being the only divide?
I'll take a meta change every 3-4 months over those alternatives.
Also, you might want to talk to someone about that 2nd paragraph, seems like that would do you some good.
Replies
If your going to start on the premise that this was a diverse meta and was balanced before Revan came in, then we're just going to have to agree to disagree. That's laughably inaccurate and simply not true.
On my shard, and I'm certainly not alone on this face, Traya leads entirely made up the top 40. Oh there would be some sprinkling of Bastilla leads and Palpatine leads in the 30s now and again. But there was no argument who was the dominate force that made up the Meta. Now every shard is different, but stats/data simply do not back up the assertion that the Meta was balanced. It was not. Bastila never made the Jedi Meta, she made them competitive yes. But all she really did was hasten Palpatine's departure - Which didn't really matter anyways because by the time Sith players were already transitioning into Traya.
Again, I don't see what DS/Sith players have to complain about, you've been Meta for most of the year and still strong in the Meta now. CG has made it clear they want arena to have a rock/paper/scissors element to it. You can't have that where's there's only one dominating force in the Meta, which the Sith Triumvirate is.
The team that got destroyed used all their trayas on defense which Mace Windu can wipe without breaking a sweat
You can beat Revan walls using Traya and there are plenty of counters to Traya teams. The guild was just very awful on offense and defense
So we're again back to complaining about speculation and baseless rumors? This is like the General Kenobi zeta rumor earlier in this thread. Are the Jedi having a rework? Let me know when this is actual reality.
I won't lie, I'd like to see Mace Windu get a rework. The fact that CG has to give him a limited time ridiculously OP bonus in TW just to convince people to try to use him kind of speaks volumes the state of the Jedi roster.
And I disagree, Raven does need good Jedi toons with synergy to be good in arena, if I go in there with a team made up of Revan, Kit Fisto, Ima-gun Di, Jedi Knight Guardian and fricken Unduli. Somehow I don't feel I would be doing as well in Arena.
It's not really "baseless." CG has not said one way or the other, but it is a logical conclusion. Doesn't mean they *will* do it, but with the focus on TCW it is not baseless to assume that we will get some reworks or some new Jedi (and Clones and Seppies).
By the time he comes back, there will be a new meta to take his place.
Okay, then let me know when this is a sure thing that's actually going to happen. But players preemptively complaining about something when there's really no evidence to suggest that's it's happening I think is rather silly.
I don't do rumor, I didn't claim there is a jedi rework down the line, I just said it will play into Revan meta when a new jedi toon is released and if jedi's got a revamp. This is just a logical conclusion, what don't you agree with it?
My claim that it doesn't take very good toons or synergies are based on the general opinion that besides Revan there aren't any significantly good or op jedis, not that you'll throw in any toon with him and you'll be good to go. You're strawmaning the argument.
Here's your contribution to that claim:
" The Jedi roster is rather lackluster, they simply don’t have the same diversity in potential as the sith roster brings. There’s a reason the Jedi haven’t been in the Meta for the last 2 years. "
If you are gonna comeback with a refuttal please base it on my opinions that I shared across the topic. The summary:
- Revan is op
- Traya is op
- Release of such op toons with overarching skills with hardly any drawback is hurting the game in the long run and rendering majority of our rosters obsolete.
Maybe there's a difference between complaint and an observation for those who understand what nuance is.
You’re right. No one is calling for a Revan nerf.....they’re just complaining about him being “OP”.
So why complain anyways if the underlining complaint is about Revans OPness???? Sounds like people want him nerfed to me...they are just not coming out and saying the word “nerf” is how I’m taking it.
It just seems that the people really upset are the ones that are still using Traya and missed the Revan boat. So to stay as competitive as they can in arena they have to resort to skipping Revan teams while climbing until they hit the Revan walls, then they are forced to fight a team that gives them trouble and isn’t easily beatable like a Traya mirror match would be. I know if that would be my case I certainly would feel the need to also lend my complaints on the forums. But honestly what good would that do? The devs aren’t gonna change anything with the most expensive toon ever released on this game.
Metas change...That’s the game. All you can do is stay ahead of the curve as best as you can.
There's observation and then there's literally complaining. the original poster in this thread brought up GK zeta rumour as another reason to complain about Revan. Whether you were making an observation regarding a Jedi rework - I'm just saying it's silly to use speculation and rumor as some sort of valid point. When there's no evidence so far to suggest it's actually going to happen.
DO you know if maybe people are swapping out mods so people can climb? That happens regularly in our shard chat
So what are we talking about here? Moreover, why is something that might not even happen, or won't have a significant impact on revan teams relevant to this discussion? There might also be a grievous rework comming, wich might be a hard counter vs revan teams, does that make revan any less or anymore OP currently? You should have not mentioned synergies because that just doesnt make sense, a revan team is much, much better supported by toons that synergise well. I'd also argue that jedi weren't exactly in a bad spot prior to revan's release either. If revan is OP, but GK, hermit and GMY aren't even "significantly good", where does that leave us? The majority of our rosters weren't obsolete before? Is this a recent problem? Or are you saying that any toons released in the past 3 years that have been meta changing was a mistake? I'm just trying to figure out what poit you're trying to make.
OP toons are being released since forever, the one pushed it a bit further than the other. The only problem i see with that happening is, as mentioned before, the skill descriptions getting way out of hand. Other than that the game thrives on powercreep. Would i be happy with a less OP toon if said toon still became meta? Yes, for sure. But if Revan was on par with chewy i would have been bummed out.
Of course they are. The devs need to give the spenders a reason to keep spending. If you have your entire roster at 7* 85, and they rework an old toon, they make ZERO off of you. If they release a new marquee toon that is subpar, they likely make ZERO off of you. If they release a journey character that is subpar, they make ZERO off of you.
It's not just SWGOH - it's pretty much any game that isn't strictly FTP. You need to keep catering to the top of the pile, because all they have to do is play the new content. Does it alienate some of the casual players? Yeah. But they're not the ones with the credit cards out.
So we are basically in agreement. My point is what you see as "the only problem". Power creep is the nature of this brand of game design. There's the speed of power creep and there's the acceleration of power creep. Now we have acceleration of it.
I've seen a similar scenario play out in CG's previous game btw. They accelerated the creep to such a degree that the gap between f2p and whales widened resulting in %90 of the playerbase gradually dropping the game.
If the release of Revan is an insular event (in terms of both the release method and the design) that will only repeat on few occasions, I'm fine with it. If and when it forms a new design norm on future releases I'm gonna drop the game.
This is hardly the first meta breaking character release, so what are we talking about here? The fact that it keeps getting more difficult (or more expensive) to get the latest and greatest, or whether or not revan as a toon is bad for the game?
These are separate issues imo.
You already said it yourself. Too much of everything packed into one toon...=acceleration of power creep.
My issue with that isn't the powercreep aspect of it, but it's needlessly complex. Take bounty hunters for example, definately not OP, ridiculously complex kits.
Obviously powercreep and the increasingly complex kits are connected, but i feel like they're going overboard with the complexity to achieve the desired powercreep. Eventually that will backfire, if it hasn't already.
Agreed.
Meh, bounty hunters are not so complex if you take a closer look at it... they were normal but then they just got contract and payout.
Anyway, CG raises the bar with complexity of characters. At first they throw anti-light side character like traya and later they want to overcome it. Right now I can't even imagine how future characters will look like if current don't get nerfs/changes/balance.
What other CG game? SWGOH is the only game they list on their website?
Hehe, I wouldn't guess why they would do that. It's Heroes of Dragon Age. Many of the core crew here got moved from there including the lead dev. Our cheat/exploit guy Lucifer's Daddy was the 2nd lead dev there. And before EA acquired them to develop HODA, they made 2 facebook based crpgs which was kinda popular. Never played those ones, just know it from HODA friends.
My original message, and remember I am a little BIAS here because I don't have REVAN, I have just obtained Traya after a long hard 8 month guild effort slog, it was evident that My Treya lead Sith squad was getting pulverised by Revan, who virtually wiped out Traya in about 20 seconds. My initial thoughts after an 8 month grind was ****, why have I spent all this F in time getting this char! - Revans release was a slap in the face for the thousands of players and guilds still working to get her.
Since this post, I have played around with my team and I now run a EMP P lead, with treya DN, Sion and Thrawn. The AI, still hunts and slaughters treya which is annoying, but I am finding a small ray of light. Its R N G based a lot of the time, and a bit of luck.
I still drop 20 slots over night and the team gets battered on defence by CLS / CHEWI and Revan teams. So to sum up, I have accepted Revan, the game must evolve and new content must play its course.
However my original message was that I thought it bad of CG to offer little consideration to players like me who were finishing or still on their traya journey to just render her worthless VS revan.
Furthermore, to an injury to already mortal wound. CG's ability to turn arena around on its head just when you have spent months farming s somewhat a speciality of theirs!!!! having just got my Geo's to g12, the new Anakin ship with Windu lead obliterates them.
So its the Revan situation all over again!
The Rule I have discovered with this game is if you don't pay, then as far as PVP is concerned gentle farm everything and stock pile everything because you can not anticipate their next move.
What's the alternative? a stale meta for months on end? True balance with most teams being equal to eachother and mods being the only divide?
I'll take a meta change every 3-4 months over those alternatives.
Also, you might want to talk to someone about that 2nd paragraph, seems like that would do you some good.