Offense up and Offense down combined = offense down?

Prev1
So I'm playing in fleet arena and for a few days now I've noticed that it appears my ships that get both offense up and offense down at the same time are still hitting for crap compared to when they don't even have offensive buffs.

My Phantom regularly can hit for 50+K with no offensive buffs. When it has offense up (50%+) it hits for 72-80K damage, which seems about right. However, when I end up with BOTH offense up and offense down, my phantom is hitting for 26-32K damage as if ONLY offense DOWN is being counted. This isn't a one time thing, I see this happening consistently. The same thing happens to tie advanced, slave 1, etc.

If I have offense UP and offense DOWN, they should cancel each other out. Right? Seems like something is hinky and should be looked at because that ain't right. (Especially when the AI seems to not have an issue with both offense up and down on at once.)

Replies

  • IV e noticed the same my Vader ship will do less damage if he has both status effects than if he had none
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Are they the same % effect?
  • Sewpot
    2010 posts Member
    I’ve always wondered about this sort of topic. Do buffs and debuffs read left to right?
    As in the way the game calculates everything is from left to right. Finishing on the last right buff or debuff.
    Reason I think this is because when you get foresight it always appears on the far left (if I’m not mistake)
    So as to be the first buff used.
    So if you have offence up and down at the same time the game will finish the attack with the last buff present on the far right.
    Now with two mirror teams of Revan,GMY,Bastila you can’t see what’s going on anymore with all the buffs. They need to somehow clean that up.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Are they the same % effect?

    Unless I'm mistaken, all offense down/up % are the same.

    https://gaming-fans.com/star-wars-goh/swgoh-resources/buffs-debuffs-list/

    However, are there any additional unique effects that the opponent ships are using? I remember recently finding out that you can't cleanse stun from plague inflicted characters thinking that thrawn could cleanse them and noticing what I thought was a bug.
  • If the down effect is calculated first and the up effect is calculated based off the new value they wouldn't exactly cancel out and the ship would cause less damage, but it shouldn't be all that much.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Are they the same % effect?

    Yes, I checked. They are both 50%.
  • Vertigo
    4496 posts Member
    They should cancel eachother out. Both go off of base offense as in offense up will add +50% of your characters offense before buffs/debuffs, and Offense down should give -50% of that same offense number before any status effect buffs/debuffs are taken into account.

    Is it possible you're just attacking ships like Sun Fac when you've got both status effects? Sun Fac has a lot of armor and gets extra armor when attacked by buffed enemies.
  • Ephran wrote: »
    If the down effect is calculated first and the up effect is calculated based off the new value they wouldn't exactly cancel out and the ship would cause less damage, but it shouldn't be all that much.

    I thought they were 25%, with 50% it actually is significant. The math is 100 * .5 * 1.5 = 75, regardless of which is applied first, you'll always lose 25% of your attack power.
  • 3pourr2
    1927 posts Member
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    So I'm playing in fleet arena and for a few days now I've noticed that it appears my ships that get both offense up and offense down at the same time are still hitting for crap compared to when they don't even have offensive buffs.

    My Phantom regularly can hit for 50+K with no offensive buffs. When it has offense up (50%+) it hits for 72-80K damage, which seems about right. However, when I end up with BOTH offense up and offense down, my phantom is hitting for 26-32K damage as if ONLY offense DOWN is being counted. This isn't a one time thing, I see this happening consistently. The same thing happens to tie advanced, slave 1, etc.

    If I have offense UP and offense DOWN, they should cancel each other out. Right? Seems like something is hinky and should be looked at because that ain't right. (Especially when the AI seems to not have an issue with both offense up and down on at once.)

    Which one is being applied first? Could that be the missing factor?
  • Vertigo wrote: »
    They should cancel eachother out. Both go off of base offense as in offense up will add +50% of your characters offense before buffs/debuffs, and Offense down should give -50% of that same offense number before any status effect buffs/debuffs are taken into account.

    Is it possible you're just attacking ships like Sun Fac when you've got both status effects? Sun Fac has a lot of armor and gets extra armor when attacked by buffed enemies.

    Not attacking Sun Fac with it. Attacking any type of ship. Biggs, Vader, Slave 1, Phantom, etc.
  • Ephran wrote: »
    Ephran wrote: »
    If the down effect is calculated first and the up effect is calculated based off the new value they wouldn't exactly cancel out and the ship would cause less damage, but it shouldn't be all that much.

    I thought they were 25%, with 50% it actually is significant. The math is 100 * .5 * 1.5 = 75, regardless of which is applied first, you'll always lose 25% of your attack power.

    (They are both 50%)

    But if I'm normally hitting for 50K+ and then with both applied only hitting for 26-32K, that's a lot less than your calculation would indicate. If I'm hitting for that amount it is somewhere around 40-50% loss of damage.

    Like I said, there's such a substantial drop in damage output with BOTH applied that it seems like offense down is being accounted for and ignoring offense up completely.
  • Ephran wrote: »
    Ephran wrote: »
    If the down effect is calculated first and the up effect is calculated based off the new value they wouldn't exactly cancel out and the ship would cause less damage, but it shouldn't be all that much.

    I thought they were 25%, with 50% it actually is significant. The math is 100 * .5 * 1.5 = 75, regardless of which is applied first, you'll always lose 25% of your attack power.

    ^^^^^ this ........ 100 + 50 - 50% =75
    100 -50 +50%=75

    No matter the order of which works first simple maths state you will always loose 25%
  • Vertigo
    4496 posts Member
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    Vertigo wrote: »
    They should cancel eachother out. Both go off of base offense as in offense up will add +50% of your characters offense before buffs/debuffs, and Offense down should give -50% of that same offense number before any status effect buffs/debuffs are taken into account.

    Is it possible you're just attacking ships like Sun Fac when you've got both status effects? Sun Fac has a lot of armor and gets extra armor when attacked by buffed enemies.

    Not attacking Sun Fac with it. Attacking any type of ship. Biggs, Vader, Slave 1, Phantom, etc.
    Interesting, maybe theres a bug with it in fleets, I'll try to pay more attention to when I've got both status effects. If they're no longer acting based on the standard offense before status effects then that could easily be the problem as you'd go from 10,000 --> 15,000 --> 7,500 or from 10,000 --> 5,000 --> 7,500. However they SHOULD cancel eachother out as this was a question a long time ago in the early stages of the game as offense down would essentially always be better than offense up if they didn't use the same values.

    Are you running Thrawn or Tarkin as your capital ship? Wonder if any of those bonuses are getting messed up.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Ephran wrote: »
    Ephran wrote: »
    If the down effect is calculated first and the up effect is calculated based off the new value they wouldn't exactly cancel out and the ship would cause less damage, but it shouldn't be all that much.

    I thought they were 25%, with 50% it actually is significant. The math is 100 * .5 * 1.5 = 75, regardless of which is applied first, you'll always lose 25% of your attack power.

    This could explains it, they dont cancel each other out before they are calculated. Seeing the opposing buffs doesnt mean no effect (which it should IMO), but just that they are both calculated into the equation.

    But wouldn't the equation be X - Y(X*0.5) + Z(X*0.5)= effective stat. Y and Z being 0 or 1 if the buff is present. X being the character stat (base not changed by buffs). Meaning that the buff or debuff is based on the " base stat" for the character, not the effective stat after a buff or debuff has been placed.

    I'm not sure if it is that way.
  • Vertigo
    4496 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    Ephran wrote: »
    Ephran wrote: »
    If the down effect is calculated first and the up effect is calculated based off the new value they wouldn't exactly cancel out and the ship would cause less damage, but it shouldn't be all that much.

    I thought they were 25%, with 50% it actually is significant. The math is 100 * .5 * 1.5 = 75, regardless of which is applied first, you'll always lose 25% of your attack power.

    This could explains it, they dont cancel each other out before they are calculated. Seeing the opposing buffs doesnt mean no effect (which it should IMO), but just that they are both calculated into the equation.

    But wouldn't the equation be X - Y(X*0.5) + Z(X*0.5)= effective stat. Y and Z being 0 or 1 if the buff is present. X being the character stat (base not changed by buffs). Meaning that the buff or debuff is based on the " base stat" for the character, not the effective stat after a buff or debuff has been placed.

    I'm not sure if it is that way.

    @Kyno the offense up and offense down buffs should both be drawing their 50% offense from the same starting value. Your equation is correct. The question is... is it bugged in fleet? Are there other factors that we haven't seen that could be causing some sort of change?
  • Ultra
    11423 posts Moderator
    Ephran wrote: »
    Ephran wrote: »
    If the down effect is calculated first and the up effect is calculated based off the new value they wouldn't exactly cancel out and the ship would cause less damage, but it shouldn't be all that much.

    I thought they were 25%, with 50% it actually is significant. The math is 100 * .5 * 1.5 = 75, regardless of which is applied first, you'll always lose 25% of your attack power.
    Interesting. I always thought it cancelled out but the math proves otherwise.

  • It actually cancels out because both the buff and debuff is off the Base offense value. So it's not 1 x 1.5 x 0.5 = 0.75. The actual game mechanics is 1 + 0.5 - 0.5 = 1.
  • Huatimus wrote: »
    It actually cancels out because both the buff and debuff is off the Base offense value. So it's not 1 x 1.5 x 0.5 = 0.75. The actual game mechanics is 1 + 0.5 - 0.5 = 1.

    Is it confirmed it's additive and not multiplicative?
  • Ultra
    11423 posts Moderator
    Ephran wrote: »
    Huatimus wrote: »
    It actually cancels out because both the buff and debuff is off the Base offense value. So it's not 1 x 1.5 x 0.5 = 0.75. The actual game mechanics is 1 + 0.5 - 0.5 = 1.

    Is it confirmed it's additive and not multiplicative?
    Huatimus is wrong

    https://swgoh.gg/characters/aurra-sing/ability/hustle

    Over here you can see offense up is multiplicative while the other part is additive

  • FailingCrab
    1155 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    Ultra wrote: »
    Ephran wrote: »
    Huatimus wrote: »
    It actually cancels out because both the buff and debuff is off the Base offense value. So it's not 1 x 1.5 x 0.5 = 0.75. The actual game mechanics is 1 + 0.5 - 0.5 = 1.

    Is it confirmed it's additive and not multiplicative?
    Huatimus is wrong

    https://swgoh.gg/characters/aurra-sing/ability/hustle

    Over here you can see offense up is multiplicative while the other part is additive

    edited while I reconsider
    https://swgoh.gg/u/ionastarbound/
    Discord: Iona Starbound#5299
  • Just chiming in to say there is no outside factors when this occurs. I have seen it effect my silencer in this same way, and I start the battle and end the battle with him. So I see his damage stack in real time and the combination of those two effects always makes him attack for significantly lower damage.
  • Boov
    604 posts Member
    non crits vs crits
    next
  • Ultra wrote: »
    Ephran wrote: »
    Huatimus wrote: »
    It actually cancels out because both the buff and debuff is off the Base offense value. So it's not 1 x 1.5 x 0.5 = 0.75. The actual game mechanics is 1 + 0.5 - 0.5 = 1.

    Is it confirmed it's additive and not multiplicative?
    Huatimus is wrong

    https://swgoh.gg/characters/aurra-sing/ability/hustle

    Over here you can see offense up is multiplicative while the other part is additive

    idk what it truly is, but I don't think offense is equal to damage, so they come in at different parts of the equation, damage being multiplied/added after calculating base damage with the offense multiplier.
  • Vertigo
    4496 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    Ultra wrote: »
    Ephran wrote: »
    Huatimus wrote: »
    It actually cancels out because both the buff and debuff is off the Base offense value. So it's not 1 x 1.5 x 0.5 = 0.75. The actual game mechanics is 1 + 0.5 - 0.5 = 1.

    Is it confirmed it's additive and not multiplicative?
    Huatimus is wrong

    https://swgoh.gg/characters/aurra-sing/ability/hustle

    Over here you can see offense up is multiplicative while the other part is additive

    It's multiplicative in the sense that it multiplies the base value by +/- 0.500 and then adds that value to your offense stat. If it were directly additive the waythe crit chance up buff is it would have to add a flat number like +/- 500 offense to everyone.

    Defense Penetration (buff most commonly found used by Visas) is additive. It adds a flat +150 defense penetration to everyone. Offense up doesn't add the same value to everyone in that way, it needs to multiply the base offense of the character (after mods and unique/leader bonuses but before status effects) to determine how much offense to add.
  • Boov wrote: »
    non crits vs crits
    next

    Huh?
  • My understanding is that it is percentage. 100% adding 25% is 125%
    Take away 25% and you have 93.75%, it coexisted but also decreased offense. Likewise, take away 25%, you have 75%. Add 25% to it and you have 93.75
    Both ways it lowers, and the math checks out by percentage
    Ultra wrote: »
    Ephran wrote: »
    Ephran wrote: »
    If the down effect is calculated first and the up effect is calculated based off the new value they wouldn't exactly cancel out and the ship would cause less damage, but it shouldn't be all that much.

    I thought they were 25%, with 50% it actually is significant. The math is 100 * .5 * 1.5 = 75, regardless of which is applied first, you'll always lose 25% of your attack power.
    Interesting. I always thought it cancelled out but the math proves otherwise.
  • Thus, offense down is better???
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Valaraukar wrote: »
    My understanding is that it is percentage. 100% adding 25% is 125%
    Take away 25% and you have 93.75%, it coexisted but also decreased offense. Likewise, take away 25%, you have 75%. Add 25% to it and you have 93.75
    Both ways it lowers, and the math checks out by percentage
    Ultra wrote: »
    Ephran wrote: »
    Ephran wrote: »
    If the down effect is calculated first and the up effect is calculated based off the new value they wouldn't exactly cancel out and the ship would cause less damage, but it shouldn't be all that much.

    I thought they were 25%, with 50% it actually is significant. The math is 100 * .5 * 1.5 = 75, regardless of which is applied first, you'll always lose 25% of your attack power.
    Interesting. I always thought it cancelled out but the math proves otherwise.

    But that's not what the stat change does. They are percents of a value. They effect the base value of a toon. The base value is static and the effective value is the one after the calculation that is used in combat.

    That math while sound math, it is not correct to the situation.
  • Ucmo
    548 posts Member
    great question op, and i love the discussion. hopefully a dev can offer the correct answer at some point.
Sign In or Register to comment.