Speed, TM, and Turn Order at the Beginning of Battle

TVF
9359 posts Member
So as I'm facing faster and faster Revans (seeing +150 and +160 at the top of my shard now, lol) I'm trying to figure out what Revan's effective speed will be at the start of battle. I know he gets bonus speed from allies, which is easy to add up. What I don't understand is how TM gain and TM reduction converts to effective speed.

For example, BB8 gets 8% TM for each droid ally at the start of battle. If he starts at 280 and he gains 16% TM for him and R2, what is his effective speed to start? And along similar lines, when he uses a special under JTR, all enemies lose 5% TM, so if he goes first and uses secret intel, what will Revan's effective speed be if he's at 320 after his bonuses?

Replies

  • HK666
    897 posts Member
    That tmr happens if you are exposed, so if bb8 is going first you don't have to worry about that

    and I wanna say the effective speed is 280*1.16, which is 328.4. But I'll admit I don't know
  • TVF
    9359 posts Member
    HK666 wrote: »
    That tmr happens if you are exposed, so if bb8 is going first you don't have to worry about that

    Ah shoot.
    and I wanna say the effective speed is 280*1.16, which is 328.4. But I'll admit I don't know

    I'm almost positive that is not correct.
  • TVF
    9359 posts Member
    So with a little research I think this is what happens. TM is based on a scale of 1000 and you have to reach 1000 to take a turn.. You start with TM equal to your speed, so BB8 starts with 280. He gets 16% of 1000, so his TM at start of battle is 280 + 160 = 440. Revan starts at 320. That's the end of the first "turn." Since no one reached 1000, everyone adds their speed to their TM. So BB8 is now at 440 + 280 = 720. Revan is at 320 + 320 = 640. No one reached 1000, go again. BB8 is now at 720 + 280 = 1000, Revan is at 640 + 320 = 960. BB8 goes first.

    Now, assuming this is correct, what happens if neither gets to 1000 that last time. Say BB8 is at 995 and Revan is at 960. Next TM add puts them both over 1000, is that where RNG comes in to determine who goes first? Or do you have BB8 at 995 + 280 = 1275 and Revan at 960 + 320 = 1280 so Revan goes first?
  • Woodroward
    3119 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    The way to calculate effective starting speed is as follows:

    speed in panel * 100/ (100-tm gain %)

    So a 300 speed BB8 in a group with 4 droids would have an effective speed of:
    300 * 100/ (100-32) = 441.sakfdaodnfoi;

    So his effective speed in this instance is a 441.

    In order to figure out what speeds will allow you a starting turn order with effects like Sith Assassin or Jawa Engineer, FOO, etc. you would simply reverse the fraction. (note this is only needed when an activated ability gives out the tm. Ones that happen at the start of match like Zaul and BB8 don't have this limitation.)
    Speed * (100-tm gain)/100
    If my Jawa Engineer is a 300 speed in panel with his +50 speed bonus I use the formula:
    350 * (100-45)/100= 192.5

    So I can have a starting turn order where one guy is somewhere between 192 and 350, but everyone else would have to be 192 and below to have a starting turn order. Otherwise everyone gets full tm and the order is random.

    Well that's that. May be more than you were asking for, idk.
  • TVF
    9359 posts Member
    I understand the first part (441 speed), although it sounds different than what I'm finding online.

    The second part (192.5) makes no sense to me. JE gets the +50 speed bonus from allies, ok, but then why are you reducing from there?

    And then the third part (where everyone gets full tm and the order is random) went right over my head. I have not seen this happen in arena.
  • TVF wrote: »
    I understand the first part (441 speed), although it sounds different than what I'm finding online.

    The second part (192.5) makes no sense to me. JE gets the +50 speed bonus from allies, ok, but then why are you reducing from there?

    And then the third part (where everyone gets full tm and the order is random) went right over my head. I have not seen this happen in arena.
    It's the only way to accurately calculate effective starting speed. We need to create a formula that is a ratio where this speed at this tm % is equal to blank speed at 100% tm and then solve for x, which is what this formula does.

    The 2nd and 3rd part go together.

    If jawa Engineer gives all droids and Jawa 45% tm, it happens at the start of his turn. This means that everyone else already has their tm full to varying degrees. Anyone who has over 55% tm at that point will then be at 100% tm and it will be a coin flip to see who goes first. anyone who has more than 192 speed in that example will get over 100% tm. That's what the formula is calculating when you reverse it like that, the breakpoint where tm will be full. You can then get a starting turn order by having people successively 1 less speed than the result.

    Back in the day when I ran droids, I had to have my B2 go first to wipe Baze's buff +BI, and K2 go 2nd to daze Chirrut so I had to use this formula every time I got faster mods.
  • TVF wrote: »
    So with a little research I think this is what happens. TM is based on a scale of 1000 and you have to reach 1000 to take a turn.. You start with TM equal to your speed, so BB8 starts with 280. He gets 16% of 1000, so his TM at start of battle is 280 + 160 = 440. Revan starts at 320. That's the end of the first "turn." Since no one reached 1000, everyone adds their speed to their TM. So BB8 is now at 440 + 280 = 720. Revan is at 320 + 320 = 640. No one reached 1000, go again. BB8 is now at 720 + 280 = 1000, Revan is at 640 + 320 = 960. BB8 goes first.

    Now, assuming this is correct, what happens if neither gets to 1000 that last time. Say BB8 is at 995 and Revan is at 960. Next TM add puts them both over 1000, is that where RNG comes in to determine who goes first? Or do you have BB8 at 995 + 280 = 1275 and Revan at 960 + 320 = 1280 so Revan goes first?

    Woodroward is right. And TM has not filled to 1000 for like 2 years now?
  • TVF
    9359 posts Member
    So to simplify this, I could compare BB8's 441 effective speed to Revan's in-panel speed plus his jedi/OR bonuses?
  • Woodroward
    3119 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    TVF wrote: »
    So to simplify this, I could compare BB8's 441 effective speed to Revan's in-panel speed plus his jedi/OR bonuses?

    Correct but just for turn 1.
  • Huatimus wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    So with a little research I think this is what happens. TM is based on a scale of 1000 and you have to reach 1000 to take a turn.. You start with TM equal to your speed, so BB8 starts with 280. He gets 16% of 1000, so his TM at start of battle is 280 + 160 = 440. Revan starts at 320. That's the end of the first "turn." Since no one reached 1000, everyone adds their speed to their TM. So BB8 is now at 440 + 280 = 720. Revan is at 320 + 320 = 640. No one reached 1000, go again. BB8 is now at 720 + 280 = 1000, Revan is at 640 + 320 = 960. BB8 goes first.

    Now, assuming this is correct, what happens if neither gets to 1000 that last time. Say BB8 is at 995 and Revan is at 960. Next TM add puts them both over 1000, is that where RNG comes in to determine who goes first? Or do you have BB8 at 995 + 280 = 1275 and Revan at 960 + 320 = 1280 so Revan goes first?

    Woodroward is right. And TM has not filled to 1000 for like 2 years now?

    To be fair, I think what it fills to has never changed. They just made the increments (or ticks as they were called) smaller, so it no longer ever fills up past 1000 but stops right at it.

    I see a lot of people say they got rid of that system, they got rid of ticks, but they didn't they just fixed the ticks. lol
  • TVF
    9359 posts Member
    Ok thanks. So BB8 is going first. Now how do I determine what JTR's effective speed is?

    BB8 goes first and does secret intel. JTR gains 8% TM. So if her in-panel speed is 280, what is her effective speed before she or Revan take a turn?
  • TVF wrote: »
    Ok thanks. So BB8 is going first. Now how do I determine what JTR's effective speed is?

    BB8 goes first and does secret intel. JTR gains 8% TM. So if her in-panel speed is 280, what is her effective speed before she or Revan take a turn?
    BB8 goes first and gives himself and another ally secret intel, then gains secret intel one more time for having used a special ability because that's how it spreads.

    At this point JTR could be gaining anywhere from 16-24% tm depending on whether or not the person BB8 put secret intel on was resistance.

    So if you are running anything other than full resistance it comes down to RNG. With full resistance you would simply plug the 24% tm she will gain in the formula I gave you earlier: Speed *100/(100-tm gain %)
  • TVF
    9359 posts Member
    Oh ok so for a full resistance squad she'd be at 280 * 100/(100-24) = 368

    I'm seeing Revans at the top of my shard at 320 so they'd be at 360 in a Revan GMY GK Bastila Jolee setup. She still goes before Revan. Neat!
  • TVF
    9359 posts Member
    Woodroward wrote: »
    then gains secret intel one more time for having used a special ability because that's how it spreads.

    @Woodroward this part has me confused. The text says "when another ally uses a special ability they gain secret intel for 3 turns." How does BB8 using it give it to him a second time?
  • TVF wrote: »
    Woodroward wrote: »
    then gains secret intel one more time for having used a special ability because that's how it spreads.

    @Woodroward this part has me confused. The text says "when another ally uses a special ability they gain secret intel for 3 turns." How does BB8 using it give it to him a second time?

    That's the text on the buff. He gave it to someone else. After the special ability is completed is when the buff looks, and it is present on another character at that point which makes BB8 "another" ally.
  • TVF
    9359 posts Member
    So you're saying after he gives it out, the game sees that he used a special so it gives it to him a second time?
  • TVF
    9359 posts Member
    Also JTR's text says she gets 8% tm when "another" res ally gets SI, so do you not get the 8% if it lands on her?
  • TVF wrote: »
    So you're saying after he gives it out, the game sees that he used a special so it gives it to him a second time?

    correct
    TVF wrote: »
    Also JTR's text says she gets 8% tm when "another" res ally gets SI, so do you not get the 8% if it lands on her?

    By the wording you would think so, but I've never noticed her not gaining tm when she gets the buff, but I didn't realize I should be looking for that. (I am still running JTR in arena, can beat most teams that don't entirely outclass me in speed, but RNG is a big factor).

    Maybe another isn't the same as other? Either that or it's bugged, or I just didn't notice.
  • TVF
    9359 posts Member
    Well she'd still get 16% if it landed on her, versus 24% if it didn't, so I don't know if you'd notice the difference right?
  • TVF wrote: »
    Well she'd still get 16% if it landed on her, versus 24% if it didn't, so I don't know if you'd notice the difference right?

    You might. My RJT always goes before R2, even though R2 is a bit faster, and also gets the 16% TM boost from BB8. Having R2 go before Rey wouldn't work in HSTR.
  • Fanatic
    116 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    Woodroward wrote: »
    Huatimus wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    So with a little research I think this is what happens. TM is based on a scale of 1000 and you have to reach 1000 to take a turn.. You start with TM equal to your speed, so BB8 starts with 280. He gets 16% of 1000, so his TM at start of battle is 280 + 160 = 440. Revan starts at 320. That's the end of the first "turn." Since no one reached 1000, everyone adds their speed to their TM. So BB8 is now at 440 + 280 = 720. Revan is at 320 + 320 = 640. No one reached 1000, go again. BB8 is now at 720 + 280 = 1000, Revan is at 640 + 320 = 960. BB8 goes first.

    Now, assuming this is correct, what happens if neither gets to 1000 that last time. Say BB8 is at 995 and Revan is at 960. Next TM add puts them both over 1000, is that where RNG comes in to determine who goes first? Or do you have BB8 at 995 + 280 = 1275 and Revan at 960 + 320 = 1280 so Revan goes first?

    Woodroward is right. And TM has not filled to 1000 for like 2 years now?

    To be fair, I think what it fills to has never changed. They just made the increments (or ticks as they were called) smaller, so it no longer ever fills up past 1000 but stops right at it.

    I see a lot of people say they got rid of that system, they got rid of ticks, but they didn't they just fixed the ticks. lol

    It's not even smaller tick size per se. It is a single tick exactly the size needed to get the next character to exactly 100% TM. e.g, if I have a toon with 900/1000 TM and 200 speed, and no other character will reach 100% TM first, then my toon gains 50% of its speed in TM (100, to reach 1000), and all other characters also gain 50% of their current speed in TM.
  • Juzz
    16 posts Member
    The approach to speed has always been misunderstood.
    What is important is time to fill the 100% TM, not the speed itself.

    The usual approach is to say that turn meter fills twice as fast for a character with a Speed rating double than the other. And it should be worded as the time needed to fill the TM is half.

    Thus, TM fill is inverse to Speed: 1/Speed

    To make it simple, we can say that the seconds needed to fill 1%TM = 1/Speed
    Character A with 200 speed would take 1/200 to fill 1%TM
    Character B with 100 Speed would take 1/100 to fill 1%TM.
    To get the full 100%TM would then be 100/200=0.5 seconds for character A and 100/100=1 second for character B

    If you get a bonus TM of 40%, the time needed to fill the TM has changed, and you only need to fill the other 60% to get a 100%TM
    For character A would be: 60/200 seconds = 0.3 seconds
    For character B would be 60/100 seconds = 0.6 seconds

    Now you can convert the seconds to 1/x to get the speed that a character would need to fill this 100% TM in the same time that the character with the bonus TM has reached it.

    For character A: 100/0.3 = 333.33
    For character B: 100/0.6 = 166.66

    Use the actual speed of the character and the actual bonus TM gain to get your data
  • @TVF as far as I know, the bug was never fixed, JTR pretty much always gains 24% TM no matter who gets the buff.
  • Fanatic wrote: »
    Woodroward wrote: »
    Huatimus wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    So with a little research I think this is what happens. TM is based on a scale of 1000 and you have to reach 1000 to take a turn.. You start with TM equal to your speed, so BB8 starts with 280. He gets 16% of 1000, so his TM at start of battle is 280 + 160 = 440. Revan starts at 320. That's the end of the first "turn." Since no one reached 1000, everyone adds their speed to their TM. So BB8 is now at 440 + 280 = 720. Revan is at 320 + 320 = 640. No one reached 1000, go again. BB8 is now at 720 + 280 = 1000, Revan is at 640 + 320 = 960. BB8 goes first.

    Now, assuming this is correct, what happens if neither gets to 1000 that last time. Say BB8 is at 995 and Revan is at 960. Next TM add puts them both over 1000, is that where RNG comes in to determine who goes first? Or do you have BB8 at 995 + 280 = 1275 and Revan at 960 + 320 = 1280 so Revan goes first?

    Woodroward is right. And TM has not filled to 1000 for like 2 years now?

    To be fair, I think what it fills to has never changed. They just made the increments (or ticks as they were called) smaller, so it no longer ever fills up past 1000 but stops right at it.

    I see a lot of people say they got rid of that system, they got rid of ticks, but they didn't they just fixed the ticks. lol

    It's not even smaller tick size per se. It is a single tick exactly the size needed to get the next character to exactly 100% TM. e.g, if I have a toon with 900/1000 TM and 200 speed, and no other character will reach 100% TM first, then my toon gains 50% of its speed in TM (100, to reach 1000), and all other characters also gain 50% of their current speed in TM.

    Actually the devs said they decreased the increment size to ensure that they reached exactly 100% tm. So it is actually a smaller tick size per se.
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