Grand Arena Megathread

Replies

  • Gannon wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    At g8 you could use secura (modded for potency) and Ezra (modded for speed) to kill most any g12 😂
    stuns, isolate, Thrawn can lock down any g12 while an attacker wails on em.
    You could go the insane tank route also, use zombie, srp, mission and z.. Nest.

    I should totally make a channel and just play with that.
    Ezra, Thrawn, Zombie, Nest, CLS, Chewy that DarkHelmet mentioned...

    Are these really toons serious players have at g8? Which of your g8 toons would you use?

    Lol my thrawn, gk, and a ton of other "meta"toons, including traya, actually are g8. I use them all the time
    😆

    Just looked at your roster. It is weird! Your Thrawn is g7?!

  • TVF
    23525 posts Member
    We found the actual sandbagger lol.
    TVF's guild is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    At g8 you could use secura (modded for potency) and Ezra (modded for speed) to kill most any g12 😂
    stuns, isolate, Thrawn can lock down any g12 while an attacker wails on em.
    You could go the insane tank route also, use zombie, srp, mission and z.. Nest.

    I should totally make a channel and just play with that.
    Ezra, Thrawn, Zombie, Nest, CLS, Chewy that DarkHelmet mentioned...

    Are these really toons serious players have at g8? Which of your g8 toons would you use?

    Nope my raid han and chewie are g12 with pieces but since the only g12 toons listed to be taken out were good toons, I thought it was only fair to use good toons too.

    And wiggs could give gmy a tough run two on one. And mine aren't geared up a lot. Though to be honest, they work best with at least a third. With a strong g12 tank to protect them , they could do well against a g12 team assuming the team can't dispel the tank easily and doesn't have a lot of health or protection regeneration.

    The point is you can make g8, g9, g10, and g11 characters work against g12 in the right teams with a bit of effort.

    Why is that the point? Even assuming you are correct and can do brilliant stuff with your g8s, if your game plan involves running a 3-man g8 wiggs team against an opponent's 3-man g12 defense you got placed in a garbage match. It's CG's responsibility to make it so people like Gannon with lots of meta chars at g8 aren't playing against people who have them at g12.

    Just for the fun of it, what kind of a matchmaking system would you consider broken? If gear level is basically irrelevant because of strategy then why not match up people purely based on player level? That'd certainly motivate people to invest and gear more.

    You're assuming I'm not playing against ppl with these meta toons at max? I routinely face these same toons at g12.5+ with every zeta.
    My point is that, although I'm behind against players at my level and gp, I can utilize their kits even at g8 while I push their gear. (Most of my gear is going toward ewoks atm tho, ftp is brutal)
    I think matching on gp is the closest to accurate they can get
  • Liath
    5093 posts Member
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    At g8 you could use secura (modded for potency) and Ezra (modded for speed) to kill most any g12 😂
    stuns, isolate, Thrawn can lock down any g12 while an attacker wails on em.
    You could go the insane tank route also, use zombie, srp, mission and z.. Nest.

    I should totally make a channel and just play with that.
    Ezra, Thrawn, Zombie, Nest, CLS, Chewy that DarkHelmet mentioned...

    Are these really toons serious players have at g8? Which of your g8 toons would you use?

    Nope my raid han and chewie are g12 with pieces but since the only g12 toons listed to be taken out were good toons, I thought it was only fair to use good toons too.

    And wiggs could give gmy a tough run two on one. And mine aren't geared up a lot. Though to be honest, they work best with at least a third. With a strong g12 tank to protect them , they could do well against a g12 team assuming the team can't dispel the tank easily and doesn't have a lot of health or protection regeneration.

    The point is you can make g8, g9, g10, and g11 characters work against g12 in the right teams with a bit of effort.

    Why is that the point? Even assuming you are correct and can do brilliant stuff with your g8s, if your game plan involves running a 3-man g8 wiggs team against an opponent's 3-man g12 defense you got placed in a garbage match. It's CG's responsibility to make it so people like Gannon with lots of meta chars at g8 aren't playing against people who have them at g12.

    Just for the fun of it, what kind of a matchmaking system would you consider broken? If gear level is basically irrelevant because of strategy then why not match up people purely based on player level? That'd certainly motivate people to invest and gear more.

    Why is that CG’s responsibility? He chose not to gear the meta characters, that’s his decision to live with. Why should anybody hold his hand?
  • RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    At g8 you could use secura (modded for potency) and Ezra (modded for speed) to kill most any g12 😂
    stuns, isolate, Thrawn can lock down any g12 while an attacker wails on em.
    You could go the insane tank route also, use zombie, srp, mission and z.. Nest.

    I should totally make a channel and just play with that.
    Ezra, Thrawn, Zombie, Nest, CLS, Chewy that DarkHelmet mentioned...

    Are these really toons serious players have at g8? Which of your g8 toons would you use?

    Nope my raid han and chewie are g12 with pieces but since the only g12 toons listed to be taken out were good toons, I thought it was only fair to use good toons too.

    And wiggs could give gmy a tough run two on one. And mine aren't geared up a lot. Though to be honest, they work best with at least a third. With a strong g12 tank to protect them , they could do well against a g12 team assuming the team can't dispel the tank easily and doesn't have a lot of health or protection regeneration.

    The point is you can make g8, g9, g10, and g11 characters work against g12 in the right teams with a bit of effort.

    Why is that the point? Even assuming you are correct and can do brilliant stuff with your g8s, if your game plan involves running a 3-man g8 wiggs team against an opponent's 3-man g12 defense you got placed in a garbage match. It's CG's responsibility to make it so people like Gannon with lots of meta chars at g8 aren't playing against people who have them at g12.

    Just for the fun of it, what kind of a matchmaking system would you consider broken? If gear level is basically irrelevant because of strategy then why not match up people purely based on player level? That'd certainly motivate people to invest and gear more.

    Considering player level stops at 85 and a new level 85 has 1/10 or less the roster than end game players, player level matchmaking would be broken.

    And no using undergeared toons is not ideal. But if you built a roster that has more g8 than g12 you have to use what you have to work with. The fact that a player has more g8 and didn't take enough characters to g12 is that player's choice not a matching issue. The g12 is weighted higher than g8 so that a g12 character counts as twice the gp as a g8. So it isn't like a person that has 100 g8 is facing some one with 100 g12s. Maybe 50 g12s. Yes they would need to het creative but that's the price of not leveling your characters.

    And yes I use g9, g10, and g11 characters. I only have 20 g12 so I have to work with what I have. Most if my opponents have to as well at my gp.
  • Liath wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    At g8 you could use secura (modded for potency) and Ezra (modded for speed) to kill most any g12 😂
    stuns, isolate, Thrawn can lock down any g12 while an attacker wails on em.
    You could go the insane tank route also, use zombie, srp, mission and z.. Nest.

    I should totally make a channel and just play with that.
    Ezra, Thrawn, Zombie, Nest, CLS, Chewy that DarkHelmet mentioned...

    Are these really toons serious players have at g8? Which of your g8 toons would you use?

    Nope my raid han and chewie are g12 with pieces but since the only g12 toons listed to be taken out were good toons, I thought it was only fair to use good toons too.

    And wiggs could give gmy a tough run two on one. And mine aren't geared up a lot. Though to be honest, they work best with at least a third. With a strong g12 tank to protect them , they could do well against a g12 team assuming the team can't dispel the tank easily and doesn't have a lot of health or protection regeneration.

    The point is you can make g8, g9, g10, and g11 characters work against g12 in the right teams with a bit of effort.

    Why is that the point? Even assuming you are correct and can do brilliant stuff with your g8s, if your game plan involves running a 3-man g8 wiggs team against an opponent's 3-man g12 defense you got placed in a garbage match. It's CG's responsibility to make it so people like Gannon with lots of meta chars at g8 aren't playing against people who have them at g12.

    Just for the fun of it, what kind of a matchmaking system would you consider broken? If gear level is basically irrelevant because of strategy then why not match up people purely based on player level? That'd certainly motivate people to invest and gear more.

    Why is that CG’s responsibility? He chose not to gear the meta characters, that’s his decision to live with. Why should anybody hold his hand?

    Exactly. I think Gannon is saying he can overcome some poor planning with strategy. Not that the poor planning was his goal.
  • Liath wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    At g8 you could use secura (modded for potency) and Ezra (modded for speed) to kill most any g12 😂
    stuns, isolate, Thrawn can lock down any g12 while an attacker wails on em.
    You could go the insane tank route also, use zombie, srp, mission and z.. Nest.

    I should totally make a channel and just play with that.
    Ezra, Thrawn, Zombie, Nest, CLS, Chewy that DarkHelmet mentioned...

    Are these really toons serious players have at g8? Which of your g8 toons would you use?

    Nope my raid han and chewie are g12 with pieces but since the only g12 toons listed to be taken out were good toons, I thought it was only fair to use good toons too.

    And wiggs could give gmy a tough run two on one. And mine aren't geared up a lot. Though to be honest, they work best with at least a third. With a strong g12 tank to protect them , they could do well against a g12 team assuming the team can't dispel the tank easily and doesn't have a lot of health or protection regeneration.

    The point is you can make g8, g9, g10, and g11 characters work against g12 in the right teams with a bit of effort.

    Why is that the point? Even assuming you are correct and can do brilliant stuff with your g8s, if your game plan involves running a 3-man g8 wiggs team against an opponent's 3-man g12 defense you got placed in a garbage match. It's CG's responsibility to make it so people like Gannon with lots of meta chars at g8 aren't playing against people who have them at g12.

    Just for the fun of it, what kind of a matchmaking system would you consider broken? If gear level is basically irrelevant because of strategy then why not match up people purely based on player level? That'd certainly motivate people to invest and gear more.

    Why is that CG’s responsibility? He chose not to gear the meta characters, that’s his decision to live with. Why should anybody hold his hand?

    Exactly. I think Gannon is saying he can overcome some poor planning with strategy. Not that the poor planning was his goal.

    Yea, poor planning, ftp sacrifices, Potato, Potahto.
    Tbh, their kit is so good, they compete just fine at g8 (7 for thrawn apparently). For now at least.. I'll finish em eventually tho.
    But at least I can mix em in with geared teams and get decent results. Haven't lost a GA yet, thank goodness.
  • Ultra
    5859 posts Member
    I had Chewbacca at g8 for a long time

    I had hermit Yoda and was using him at g9 for a year (raids, arena, etc) until JKR came out

    I have C3PO at g8 and I'm just going to use my stun guns on other toons because he doesn't really need it and does his job well enough with just speed set mods

    All the top meta teams are pretty good at low gear. I had a low geared shoretrooper for the longest time because he was pretty beefy at lower gears and just needed to withstand the initial assault until my slower teams could move.

    We all are facing the gear bottleneck, and that's where our planning comes into place, I spent 550 carbs on Sun Fac (1 toon to g12) and you might be spending those 550 carbs to push 3 other toons to g12 instead. This is why people with similar GP have different amount of g12s or I might have more zetas than you but you might have more gear than me. Some toons are more demanding and that's where the gear difference comes into place with similar GP and I don't fault CG here but the players for their choices
  • After 2 rounds of GA, i prefer the 3 toon squads and the stun guns as rewards. Now can we get back to TWs?
  • Liath wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    At g8 you could use secura (modded for potency) and Ezra (modded for speed) to kill most any g12 😂
    stuns, isolate, Thrawn can lock down any g12 while an attacker wails on em.
    You could go the insane tank route also, use zombie, srp, mission and z.. Nest.

    I should totally make a channel and just play with that.
    Ezra, Thrawn, Zombie, Nest, CLS, Chewy that DarkHelmet mentioned...

    Are these really toons serious players have at g8? Which of your g8 toons would you use?

    Nope my raid han and chewie are g12 with pieces but since the only g12 toons listed to be taken out were good toons, I thought it was only fair to use good toons too.

    And wiggs could give gmy a tough run two on one. And mine aren't geared up a lot. Though to be honest, they work best with at least a third. With a strong g12 tank to protect them , they could do well against a g12 team assuming the team can't dispel the tank easily and doesn't have a lot of health or protection regeneration.

    The point is you can make g8, g9, g10, and g11 characters work against g12 in the right teams with a bit of effort.

    Why is that the point? Even assuming you are correct and can do brilliant stuff with your g8s, if your game plan involves running a 3-man g8 wiggs team against an opponent's 3-man g12 defense you got placed in a garbage match. It's CG's responsibility to make it so people like Gannon with lots of meta chars at g8 aren't playing against people who have them at g12.

    Just for the fun of it, what kind of a matchmaking system would you consider broken? If gear level is basically irrelevant because of strategy then why not match up people purely based on player level? That'd certainly motivate people to invest and gear more.

    Why is that CG’s responsibility? He chose not to gear the meta characters, that’s his decision to live with. Why should anybody hold his hand?

    I assume with his meta chars at g8 that he's just super low everything.
  • Gannon wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    At g8 you could use secura (modded for potency) and Ezra (modded for speed) to kill most any g12 😂
    stuns, isolate, Thrawn can lock down any g12 while an attacker wails on em.
    You could go the insane tank route also, use zombie, srp, mission and z.. Nest.

    I should totally make a channel and just play with that.
    Ezra, Thrawn, Zombie, Nest, CLS, Chewy that DarkHelmet mentioned...

    Are these really toons serious players have at g8? Which of your g8 toons would you use?

    Nope my raid han and chewie are g12 with pieces but since the only g12 toons listed to be taken out were good toons, I thought it was only fair to use good toons too.

    And wiggs could give gmy a tough run two on one. And mine aren't geared up a lot. Though to be honest, they work best with at least a third. With a strong g12 tank to protect them , they could do well against a g12 team assuming the team can't dispel the tank easily and doesn't have a lot of health or protection regeneration.

    The point is you can make g8, g9, g10, and g11 characters work against g12 in the right teams with a bit of effort.

    Why is that the point? Even assuming you are correct and can do brilliant stuff with your g8s, if your game plan involves running a 3-man g8 wiggs team against an opponent's 3-man g12 defense you got placed in a garbage match. It's CG's responsibility to make it so people like Gannon with lots of meta chars at g8 aren't playing against people who have them at g12.

    Just for the fun of it, what kind of a matchmaking system would you consider broken? If gear level is basically irrelevant because of strategy then why not match up people purely based on player level? That'd certainly motivate people to invest and gear more.

    Why is that CG’s responsibility? He chose not to gear the meta characters, that’s his decision to live with. Why should anybody hold his hand?

    Exactly. I think Gannon is saying he can overcome some poor planning with strategy. Not that the poor planning was his goal.

    Yea, poor planning, ftp sacrifices, Potato, Potahto.
    Tbh, their kit is so good, they compete just fine at g8 (7 for thrawn apparently). For now at least.. I'll finish em eventually tho.
    But at least I can mix em in with geared teams and get decent results. Haven't lost a GA yet, thank goodness.

    True support toons like thrawn are the best ones to leave undergeared if you have to. After all fracture still works at g8. Though I use thrawn in arena so g8 isn't an option. Still waiting on the 2nd g12+ piece for another +6 speed to vounter some of the faster revan teams.
  • RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    At g8 you could use secura (modded for potency) and Ezra (modded for speed) to kill most any g12 😂
    stuns, isolate, Thrawn can lock down any g12 while an attacker wails on em.
    You could go the insane tank route also, use zombie, srp, mission and z.. Nest.

    I should totally make a channel and just play with that.
    Ezra, Thrawn, Zombie, Nest, CLS, Chewy that DarkHelmet mentioned...

    Are these really toons serious players have at g8? Which of your g8 toons would you use?

    Nope my raid han and chewie are g12 with pieces but since the only g12 toons listed to be taken out were good toons, I thought it was only fair to use good toons too.

    And wiggs could give gmy a tough run two on one. And mine aren't geared up a lot. Though to be honest, they work best with at least a third. With a strong g12 tank to protect them , they could do well against a g12 team assuming the team can't dispel the tank easily and doesn't have a lot of health or protection regeneration.

    The point is you can make g8, g9, g10, and g11 characters work against g12 in the right teams with a bit of effort.

    Why is that the point? Even assuming you are correct and can do brilliant stuff with your g8s, if your game plan involves running a 3-man g8 wiggs team against an opponent's 3-man g12 defense you got placed in a garbage match. It's CG's responsibility to make it so people like Gannon with lots of meta chars at g8 aren't playing against people who have them at g12.

    Just for the fun of it, what kind of a matchmaking system would you consider broken? If gear level is basically irrelevant because of strategy then why not match up people purely based on player level? That'd certainly motivate people to invest and gear more.

    Considering player level stops at 85 and a new level 85 has 1/10 or less the roster than end game players, player level matchmaking would be broken.

    And no using undergeared toons is not ideal. But if you built a roster that has more g8 than g12 you have to use what you have to work with. The fact that a player has more g8 and didn't take enough characters to g12 is that player's choice not a matching issue. The g12 is weighted higher than g8 so that a g12 character counts as twice the gp as a g8. So it isn't like a person that has 100 g8 is facing some one with 100 g12s. Maybe 50 g12s. Yes they would need to het creative but that's the price of not leveling your characters.

    And yes I use g9, g10, and g11 characters. I only have 20 g12 so I have to work with what I have. Most if my opponents have to as well at my gp.

    Having someone with 135 g12 facing someone with 75 g12 is within my definition of broken. Would you consider 20 g12 vs 80 g12 fair? 40 vs 100? 60 vs 120?
  • TVF
    23525 posts Member
    What's the G11 count?
    TVF's guild is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Ultra wrote: »
    I had Chewbacca at g8 for a long time

    I had hermit Yoda and was using him at g9 for a year (raids, arena, etc) until JKR came out

    I have C3PO at g8 and I'm just going to use my stun guns on other toons because he doesn't really need it and does his job well enough with just speed set mods

    All the top meta teams are pretty good at low gear. I had a low geared shoretrooper for the longest time because he was pretty beefy at lower gears and just needed to withstand the initial assault until my slower teams could move.

    We all are facing the gear bottleneck, and that's where our planning comes into place, I spent 550 carbs on Sun Fac (1 toon to g12) and you might be spending those 550 carbs to push 3 other toons to g12 instead. This is why people with similar GP have different amount of g12s or I might have more zetas than you but you might have more gear than me. Some toons are more demanding and that's where the gear difference comes into place with similar GP and I don't fault CG here but the players for their choices

    This is really not where the GP difference comes into play. Top guilds push their players to not star, level, or gear characters that aren't meta to sandbag their GP for TW (and GA). One leveled and starred character that is worthless in either mode is about 12000 gp (double that if they are a pilot). It builds up really fast and was encouraged when TB came out. There's no way to undo any of that leveling at this point and the only way to compete is to either fix the system or stop leveling/farming for new characters unless mandatory for the meta. That's just bad game design.

    If it was just how people spend their gear, sure, put people with basically the same amount of carbanti's on characters against each other. That's a decent estimation of general gear level. Don't make the g4 green gear a significant fraction of a g12 piece.
  • TVF wrote: »
    What's the G11 count?

    In my hypothetical? Even. My original post involved being down 60 g12's but up almost 20 g11s.

    u9meq8bpbckq.jpg
  • RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    At g8 you could use secura (modded for potency) and Ezra (modded for speed) to kill most any g12 😂
    stuns, isolate, Thrawn can lock down any g12 while an attacker wails on em.
    You could go the insane tank route also, use zombie, srp, mission and z.. Nest.

    I should totally make a channel and just play with that.
    Ezra, Thrawn, Zombie, Nest, CLS, Chewy that DarkHelmet mentioned...

    Are these really toons serious players have at g8? Which of your g8 toons would you use?

    Nope my raid han and chewie are g12 with pieces but since the only g12 toons listed to be taken out were good toons, I thought it was only fair to use good toons too.

    And wiggs could give gmy a tough run two on one. And mine aren't geared up a lot. Though to be honest, they work best with at least a third. With a strong g12 tank to protect them , they could do well against a g12 team assuming the team can't dispel the tank easily and doesn't have a lot of health or protection regeneration.

    The point is you can make g8, g9, g10, and g11 characters work against g12 in the right teams with a bit of effort.

    Why is that the point? Even assuming you are correct and can do brilliant stuff with your g8s, if your game plan involves running a 3-man g8 wiggs team against an opponent's 3-man g12 defense you got placed in a garbage match. It's CG's responsibility to make it so people like Gannon with lots of meta chars at g8 aren't playing against people who have them at g12.

    Just for the fun of it, what kind of a matchmaking system would you consider broken? If gear level is basically irrelevant because of strategy then why not match up people purely based on player level? That'd certainly motivate people to invest and gear more.

    Considering player level stops at 85 and a new level 85 has 1/10 or less the roster than end game players, player level matchmaking would be broken.

    And no using undergeared toons is not ideal. But if you built a roster that has more g8 than g12 you have to use what you have to work with. The fact that a player has more g8 and didn't take enough characters to g12 is that player's choice not a matching issue. The g12 is weighted higher than g8 so that a g12 character counts as twice the gp as a g8. So it isn't like a person that has 100 g8 is facing some one with 100 g12s. Maybe 50 g12s. Yes they would need to het creative but that's the price of not leveling your characters.

    And yes I use g9, g10, and g11 characters. I only have 20 g12 so I have to work with what I have. Most if my opponents have to as well at my gp.

    Having someone with 135 g12 facing someone with 75 g12 is within my definition of broken. Would you consider 20 g12 vs 80 g12 fair? 40 vs 100? 60 vs 120?

    Depends on what the rest of the roster looks like. For example 80 g12 and 0 g11 vs 20 g12 and 60 g11 would still be close depending on mods and the 100 other factors that decide battles.

    The matchup you have was fair enough as well. You just like to whine. You could have had more than 75 g12s if you made different choices. It's not CGs job to make up for poor decisions with match making.

    I have yet to see matches with more than around twice the g12 and in those cases usually the player with less gear 12 has more g11 to make up for it. And probably more g10 but that doesn't show on the stats. But the gp is usually close and the way the gp works that means they have other resources the one with more g12 doesn't. Could be his gear 12 has all the g12 and g12+ pieces where the opponent doesn't. There are so many things that don't show in the stats that you posted for comparison.
  • RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    What's the G11 count?

    In my hypothetical? Even. My original post involved being down 60 g12's but up almost 20 g11s.

    u9meq8bpbckq.jpg

    And in that post you have 100 characters at g11/g12. You don't need but 3/4 of them. Yes your opponent has more but can't use the extra anyway. So you both have maxed accounts for the purposes of grand arena. The only deciding factors in your match would be what characters you chose to level and gear.
  • RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    At g8 you could use secura (modded for potency) and Ezra (modded for speed) to kill most any g12 😂
    stuns, isolate, Thrawn can lock down any g12 while an attacker wails on em.
    You could go the insane tank route also, use zombie, srp, mission and z.. Nest.

    I should totally make a channel and just play with that.
    Ezra, Thrawn, Zombie, Nest, CLS, Chewy that DarkHelmet mentioned...

    Are these really toons serious players have at g8? Which of your g8 toons would you use?

    Nope my raid han and chewie are g12 with pieces but since the only g12 toons listed to be taken out were good toons, I thought it was only fair to use good toons too.

    And wiggs could give gmy a tough run two on one. And mine aren't geared up a lot. Though to be honest, they work best with at least a third. With a strong g12 tank to protect them , they could do well against a g12 team assuming the team can't dispel the tank easily and doesn't have a lot of health or protection regeneration.

    The point is you can make g8, g9, g10, and g11 characters work against g12 in the right teams with a bit of effort.

    Why is that the point? Even assuming you are correct and can do brilliant stuff with your g8s, if your game plan involves running a 3-man g8 wiggs team against an opponent's 3-man g12 defense you got placed in a garbage match. It's CG's responsibility to make it so people like Gannon with lots of meta chars at g8 aren't playing against people who have them at g12.

    Just for the fun of it, what kind of a matchmaking system would you consider broken? If gear level is basically irrelevant because of strategy then why not match up people purely based on player level? That'd certainly motivate people to invest and gear more.

    Considering player level stops at 85 and a new level 85 has 1/10 or less the roster than end game players, player level matchmaking would be broken.

    And no using undergeared toons is not ideal. But if you built a roster that has more g8 than g12 you have to use what you have to work with. The fact that a player has more g8 and didn't take enough characters to g12 is that player's choice not a matching issue. The g12 is weighted higher than g8 so that a g12 character counts as twice the gp as a g8. So it isn't like a person that has 100 g8 is facing some one with 100 g12s. Maybe 50 g12s. Yes they would need to het creative but that's the price of not leveling your characters.

    And yes I use g9, g10, and g11 characters. I only have 20 g12 so I have to work with what I have. Most if my opponents have to as well at my gp.

    Having someone with 135 g12 facing someone with 75 g12 is within my definition of broken. Would you consider 20 g12 vs 80 g12 fair? 40 vs 100? 60 vs 120?

    Depends on what the rest of the roster looks like. For example 80 g12 and 0 g11 vs 20 g12 and 60 g11 would still be close depending on mods and the 100 other factors that decide battles.

    The matchup you have was fair enough as well. You just like to whine. You could have had more than 75 g12s if you made different choices. It's not CGs job to make up for poor decisions with match making.

    I have yet to see matches with more than around twice the g12 and in those cases usually the player with less gear 12 has more g11 to make up for it. And probably more g10 but that doesn't show on the stats. But the gp is usually close and the way the gp works that means they have other resources the one with more g12 doesn't. Could be his gear 12 has all the g12 and g12+ pieces where the opponent doesn't. There are so many things that don't show in the stats that you posted for comparison.

    We're having an argument over a game mechanic. I'm using a recent match as an example. Not sure why you always choose to attack me personally because I think the mechanic is poorly designed but maybe you're just an ****.

    Also, I could have a handful more g12, but if I condense all the resources in my bottom 70 characters I wouldn't be anywhere near his level of g12s. Getting people to g7-g8 requires almost none of the valuable gear. And as far as decisions, CG released TB first which encouraged building up GP and has stated repeatedly that they don't want to punish people for starring, leveling or whatever characters. Placing people with a huge disparity in viable characters against each other is just bad game design. And yes, my question was based on the assumption that all of those other values are equivalent. But feel free to be an **** instead of answering my question some more.
  • Gannon
    1473 posts Member
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    At g8 you could use secura (modded for potency) and Ezra (modded for speed) to kill most any g12 😂
    stuns, isolate, Thrawn can lock down any g12 while an attacker wails on em.
    You could go the insane tank route also, use zombie, srp, mission and z.. Nest.

    I should totally make a channel and just play with that.
    Ezra, Thrawn, Zombie, Nest, CLS, Chewy that DarkHelmet mentioned...

    Are these really toons serious players have at g8? Which of your g8 toons would you use?

    Nope my raid han and chewie are g12 with pieces but since the only g12 toons listed to be taken out were good toons, I thought it was only fair to use good toons too.

    And wiggs could give gmy a tough run two on one. And mine aren't geared up a lot. Though to be honest, they work best with at least a third. With a strong g12 tank to protect them , they could do well against a g12 team assuming the team can't dispel the tank easily and doesn't have a lot of health or protection regeneration.

    The point is you can make g8, g9, g10, and g11 characters work against g12 in the right teams with a bit of effort.

    Why is that the point? Even assuming you are correct and can do brilliant stuff with your g8s, if your game plan involves running a 3-man g8 wiggs team against an opponent's 3-man g12 defense you got placed in a garbage match. It's CG's responsibility to make it so people like Gannon with lots of meta chars at g8 aren't playing against people who have them at g12.

    Just for the fun of it, what kind of a matchmaking system would you consider broken? If gear level is basically irrelevant because of strategy then why not match up people purely based on player level? That'd certainly motivate people to invest and gear more.

    Considering player level stops at 85 and a new level 85 has 1/10 or less the roster than end game players, player level matchmaking would be broken.

    And no using undergeared toons is not ideal. But if you built a roster that has more g8 than g12 you have to use what you have to work with. The fact that a player has more g8 and didn't take enough characters to g12 is that player's choice not a matching issue. The g12 is weighted higher than g8 so that a g12 character counts as twice the gp as a g8. So it isn't like a person that has 100 g8 is facing some one with 100 g12s. Maybe 50 g12s. Yes they would need to het creative but that's the price of not leveling your characters.

    And yes I use g9, g10, and g11 characters. I only have 20 g12 so I have to work with what I have. Most if my opponents have to as well at my gp.

    Having someone with 135 g12 facing someone with 75 g12 is within my definition of broken. Would you consider 20 g12 vs 80 g12 fair? 40 vs 100? 60 vs 120?

    Depends on what the rest of the roster looks like. For example 80 g12 and 0 g11 vs 20 g12 and 60 g11 would still be close depending on mods and the 100 other factors that decide battles.

    The matchup you have was fair enough as well. You just like to whine. You could have had more than 75 g12s if you made different choices. It's not CGs job to make up for poor decisions with match making.

    I have yet to see matches with more than around twice the g12 and in those cases usually the player with less gear 12 has more g11 to make up for it. And probably more g10 but that doesn't show on the stats. But the gp is usually close and the way the gp works that means they have other resources the one with more g12 doesn't. Could be his gear 12 has all the g12 and g12+ pieces where the opponent doesn't. There are so many things that don't show in the stats that you posted for comparison.

    We're having an argument over a game mechanic. I'm using a recent match as an example. Not sure why you always choose to attack me personally because I think the mechanic is poorly designed but maybe you're just an ****.

    Also, I could have a handful more g12, but if I condense all the resources in my bottom 70 characters I wouldn't be anywhere near his level of g12s. Getting people to g7-g8 requires almost none of the valuable gear. And as far as decisions, CG released TB first which encouraged building up GP and has stated repeatedly that they don't want to punish people for starring, leveling or whatever characters. Placing people with a huge disparity in viable characters against each other is just bad game design. And yes, my question was based on the assumption that all of those other values are equivalent. But feel free to be an **** instead of answering my question some more.

    Could be a mix of how many 7* toons you have, gears 8-11, and all those zetas. The other guy prolly didn't have all that. All the gp is factored in, and since you're both essentially at the maxed out end of the game, there's a ton of resources left out of that dsr bot pic.
    but like darkhelmet and some others have said, everything over 66 or so toons, depending what they are, are irrelevant to the GA if you use decent counters to what your opponent placed.
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Yes, that is the chart I used. It's 140 for a g12 piece and 81 for a g8 piece. If you put a g12 piece on you don't get points for the components that go into the g12 piece - it's just a flat 140.

    140>81
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    I agree sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded. But the matchmaking isn't the solution to that. Tiered rewards that encourage you to grow your gp by putting you in a higher bracket would discourage sandbagging with much less effort than changing the whole matchmakimg system.

    But even as it is, most don't leave characters at level 1 because of ga. I leave useless characters at level 1 g1 because I want to have the credits for better mods or to level a good character later and the gear to gear a good character later. Eventually you realize that g7 level 50 characters add nothing to your ability to complete events. So you stop leveling useless toons.

    And mod stripping does not have a significant enough effect to drastically effect matchmaking. You may lower your gp by 50k by stripping mods but at 4.6 mil that's a rounding error.

    People who started when I did mostly have infinite credits, training droids and ability mats other than omegas and zetas. This is a strategy that I'm sure his guild uses in TW as well as GA to guarantee the best matchups for them. I'd bet his guild clears TB with full stars and that he doesn't miss out on any big deal characters. He's not saving resources, to have 137 g12 characters he must spend an absolute truckload of money on the game. Any weakness in his roster is intentional.

    not all late game players have unlimited credits. Training droids yes. But credits no. If you frequently buy mods to try and get a lot of good mods, it burns through a lot of credits pretty quick. I keep a stash of about 40 mil but that is hardly unlimited when mods go for 5mil + each and leveling them is a crapshoot. There's also the likelihood of an eventual level cap increase so I want a decent stash to level up to level 90 when that happens. It'll probably cost a couple million per toon to do so at least. So my 40 mil may get me 20 toons to level 90. I can see those wanting 100 mil or more saved. But I balance that with trying to get good mods.

    And you're not in a guild that can clear tb without further inflating your roster? At 4.6 mil gp, if you are in a guild that is made up of similar level players, that should be a walk in the park.

    And some spend money to win. Fact of life. I personally don't but can probably beat most whales at similar gp because I focus and have to make do with what I habe and the result of doing that is you get more skilled when you can't buy your way through everything.

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.

    It's not arbitrary, it's directly dependent on the gear, stars, levels, etc on a character. It tells you their power.

    It's arbitrary as it doesn't take in consideration any meaningful metric both inside the tiers and in between properties. They could have given g1-1, g2-2 GP value...and that would also be on the same arbitrariness level.

    Don't they have different gp for different parts? What do you mean their properties?

    I mean Gear vs Levels vs Stars vs Abilities in terms of GP. Current GP calculation is crooked both in terms of each tiers GP value and in between comparisons of these properties.

    Oh ok, you and I discussed that in another thread. It balances out tho, sort of, with stars v gear (as far as most stats are concerned) the abilities really depend on each toons kit to figure if it's justifiable gp

    It doesn't really balance out. Yeah we discussed it and should discuss it further it seems as much of the community is still not aware what drives the GP wedge. The system needs to be impartial and a fair assesment of these values. When we look at it in bulk it becomes obvious that my g8 characters doesn't provide half the usage value of a fully maxed g12 toon. And no, we aren't battling it out as imaginary 1 vs 1 matches, that sheds no light to what's at hand.

    Anyway, I just won a GA due to this. I was quite outmatched by the way, especially in terms of our mods. 260 10+ speeds to my 110 10+s. I'm not arguing this should also be considered for matchmaking, just putting that out.

    My opponent has already beaten a Revan player who also has beaten both of his other 2 opponents. He was a competetive with unconventional teams. It's good to note during these 2 tourneys majority of my matches settled on banner counts where both sides cleans the fields, I guess that's a norm for this GP.

    n8lsj9asye7b.png

    I am aware this goes to primarily show how uneven the toons are created, but it also shows no amount of g8s could have beaten it, rest of his left roster which probably worth somewhere along 1M-2M gp is rendered useless for any practical purpose.

    By my esmitation a G8 (otherwise maxed) toon should have the %20 GP worth of a fully maxed g12 one. Currently it's close to %50 or even higher (12k to 22k on average) What's your estimation? Do you find the current values a fair assessment of their gameplay worth?

    I'll take that bait 😂
    I think g8 is roughly a lil more than half of the gp of a g12, usually. This makes perfect seems to me. If you stick one g12 against two g8s, the g8s would have slightly better gp and should win. Depends on the toons of course, but I could take any single g12 with two of my g8s.
    Point was that toons stats all go up with each star level, and also with each gear lvl. It's separate. A g8 7* toon with have nearly the same stats as a g11 4* toon. It's all in the gp calculation, but is clearly visible in the stats of the character.

    I don't know what characters you have at g8 but taking on a g12 Nest, Revan, Traya, Sion, GMYoda, KRU, Zylo, Bossk, Zaalbar, CLS etc with two g8s seems... unlikely.

    If it's 2 on 1, as they're half the gp of a g12, then yes I could do it. Basically make the best use their kit.
    I used a g8 gk under bast lead this GA, due to the extra survivability. Won against full g12.5+ with all zetas

    Again goes to show primarily how toons are not created equal or even close to it rather than the fairness of gp calculation just like my example.

    I don't think you could come up with a way to calculate gp that would account for all the nuances of a characters kit. Certainly not one that would solve all this match up is unfair complaints. And the more complicated it gets the more open to errors it becomes. It works ok as is.

    Heh you could think of one example of how we could quantify it and thus concluded it's fine as is since you can't come up with a metric?

    Here are two metrics for you, one based on stats, other resource:

    - Use current stat multipliers for gear tiers for GP value multiplier between tiers. Incredibly simple and I can't think of why it wouldn't be fair as that's exactly the power difference the toon gets.

    - Consider all the gear pieces that goes into a gear tier. Consider the value of each gear piece based on their map energy value and correlate. This is somewhat hard since it varies from character to character. It's not a big problem characters end up with a different GP as a result though (due to resource investment difference), that's already the case.
  • Ultra
    5859 posts Member
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    What's the G11 count?

    In my hypothetical? Even. My original post involved being down 60 g12's but up almost 20 g11s.

    u9meq8bpbckq.jpg
    I don't think your matching is bad at all.

    You have enough g12 and g11 to clear out the board. Your opponent can have 500 g12 toons but you only need so little to win this game mode.

    11 teams for defense = 33 g12 toons + 11 teams for offense = 66 g12 toons needed at least

    You have 75 g12 and you still have a few g11s for second/third attempts

    g12/g11 combos are equally good as a squad of g12... I hope nobody disagrees at this point at least

    You can field 33 teams. Your matching is fine, and you have the zeta advantage
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Yes, that is the chart I used. It's 140 for a g12 piece and 81 for a g8 piece. If you put a g12 piece on you don't get points for the components that go into the g12 piece - it's just a flat 140.

    140>81
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    I agree sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded. But the matchmaking isn't the solution to that. Tiered rewards that encourage you to grow your gp by putting you in a higher bracket would discourage sandbagging with much less effort than changing the whole matchmakimg system.

    But even as it is, most don't leave characters at level 1 because of ga. I leave useless characters at level 1 g1 because I want to have the credits for better mods or to level a good character later and the gear to gear a good character later. Eventually you realize that g7 level 50 characters add nothing to your ability to complete events. So you stop leveling useless toons.

    And mod stripping does not have a significant enough effect to drastically effect matchmaking. You may lower your gp by 50k by stripping mods but at 4.6 mil that's a rounding error.

    People who started when I did mostly have infinite credits, training droids and ability mats other than omegas and zetas. This is a strategy that I'm sure his guild uses in TW as well as GA to guarantee the best matchups for them. I'd bet his guild clears TB with full stars and that he doesn't miss out on any big deal characters. He's not saving resources, to have 137 g12 characters he must spend an absolute truckload of money on the game. Any weakness in his roster is intentional.

    not all late game players have unlimited credits. Training droids yes. But credits no. If you frequently buy mods to try and get a lot of good mods, it burns through a lot of credits pretty quick. I keep a stash of about 40 mil but that is hardly unlimited when mods go for 5mil + each and leveling them is a crapshoot. There's also the likelihood of an eventual level cap increase so I want a decent stash to level up to level 90 when that happens. It'll probably cost a couple million per toon to do so at least. So my 40 mil may get me 20 toons to level 90. I can see those wanting 100 mil or more saved. But I balance that with trying to get good mods.

    And you're not in a guild that can clear tb without further inflating your roster? At 4.6 mil gp, if you are in a guild that is made up of similar level players, that should be a walk in the park.

    And some spend money to win. Fact of life. I personally don't but can probably beat most whales at similar gp because I focus and have to make do with what I habe and the result of doing that is you get more skilled when you can't buy your way through everything.

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.

    It's not arbitrary, it's directly dependent on the gear, stars, levels, etc on a character. It tells you their power.

    It's arbitrary as it doesn't take in consideration any meaningful metric both inside the tiers and in between properties. They could have given g1-1, g2-2 GP value...and that would also be on the same arbitrariness level.

    Don't they have different gp for different parts? What do you mean their properties?

    I mean Gear vs Levels vs Stars vs Abilities in terms of GP. Current GP calculation is crooked both in terms of each tiers GP value and in between comparisons of these properties.

    Oh ok, you and I discussed that in another thread. It balances out tho, sort of, with stars v gear (as far as most stats are concerned) the abilities really depend on each toons kit to figure if it's justifiable gp

    It doesn't really balance out. Yeah we discussed it and should discuss it further it seems as much of the community is still not aware what drives the GP wedge. The system needs to be impartial and a fair assesment of these values. When we look at it in bulk it becomes obvious that my g8 characters doesn't provide half the usage value of a fully maxed g12 toon. And no, we aren't battling it out as imaginary 1 vs 1 matches, that sheds no light to what's at hand.

    Anyway, I just won a GA due to this. I was quite outmatched by the way, especially in terms of our mods. 260 10+ speeds to my 110 10+s. I'm not arguing this should also be considered for matchmaking, just putting that out.

    My opponent has already beaten a Revan player who also has beaten both of his other 2 opponents. He was a competetive with unconventional teams. It's good to note during these 2 tourneys majority of my matches settled on banner counts where both sides cleans the fields, I guess that's a norm for this GP.

    n8lsj9asye7b.png

    I am aware this goes to primarily show how uneven the toons are created, but it also shows no amount of g8s could have beaten it, rest of his left roster which probably worth somewhere along 1M-2M gp is rendered useless for any practical purpose.

    By my esmitation a G8 (otherwise maxed) toon should have the %20 GP worth of a fully maxed g12 one. Currently it's close to %50 or even higher (12k to 22k on average) What's your estimation? Do you find the current values a fair assessment of their gameplay worth?

    I'll take that bait 😂
    I think g8 is roughly a lil more than half of the gp of a g12, usually. This makes perfect seems to me. If you stick one g12 against two g8s, the g8s would have slightly better gp and should win. Depends on the toons of course, but I could take any single g12 with two of my g8s.
    Point was that toons stats all go up with each star level, and also with each gear lvl. It's separate. A g8 7* toon with have nearly the same stats as a g11 4* toon. It's all in the gp calculation, but is clearly visible in the stats of the character.

    I don't know what characters you have at g8 but taking on a g12 Nest, Revan, Traya, Sion, GMYoda, KRU, Zylo, Bossk, Zaalbar, CLS etc with two g8s seems... unlikely.

    If it's 2 on 1, as they're half the gp of a g12, then yes I could do it. Basically make the best use their kit.
    I used a g8 gk under bast lead this GA, due to the extra survivability. Won against full g12.5+ with all zetas

    Again goes to show primarily how toons are not created equal or even close to it rather than the fairness of gp calculation just like my example.

    I don't think you could come up with a way to calculate gp that would account for all the nuances of a characters kit. Certainly not one that would solve all this match up is unfair complaints. And the more complicated it gets the more open to errors it becomes. It works ok as is.

    Also let's be clear about one thing. I never argued the matchmaking system should take toon actualities into consideration. Just trying to come up with a system that's both impartial and fair. What toon to invest in and why that toon is particularly important is a player's decision alone from my viewpoint.

    Though it's absurdly evident I didn't make up these g8 toons for their field performance, almost noone did. If the GP calculation itself was a fair assessment of a toons power or resources used on it, the problem automatically evaporates. Then regardless of if I can/will use the g8 toon, I absolutely got what I paid for in terms of GP.
  • Ultra
    5859 posts Member
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    This is really not where the GP difference comes into play. Top guilds push their players to not star, level, or gear characters that aren't meta to sandbag their GP for TW (and GA). One leveled and starred character that is worthless in either mode is about 12000 gp (double that if they are a pilot). It builds up really fast and was encouraged when TB came out. There's no way to undo any of that leveling at this point and the only way to compete is to either fix the system or stop leveling/farming for new characters unless mandatory for the meta. That's just bad game design.

    If it was just how people spend their gear, sure, put people with basically the same amount of carbanti's on characters against each other. That's a decent estimation of general gear level. Don't make the g4 green gear a significant fraction of a g12 piece.
    This game has only so little actual useless pilots and they don't make a big enough of an impact from my personal experience

    We are under the assumption that the opponent has made ZERO mistakes in developing the roster collection. In most arguments its implying that the opponent has never activated, geared, leveled or starred a useless toon and has all the optimal toons developed. For each useless pilot I have the other guy has the same or a cup or a MOB enforcer or a zeta that is no longer useful etc.

    I've geared and focused heavily on ships and collection (I like starring as many toons to 7 stars as possible and it triggers my OCD if I don't and I have 6 toons below level 50) and my guild never encouraged sandbagging tactics. I'm guilty of all the things you shouldn't be doing in Grand Arena

    I've had zero issues in both exhibition matches, and the two 3 round Grand Arenas. I looked at the rosters and every win/loss has been super close. Some matches my opponent had more gear, and others I had the edge. I think the complaint of sandbagging is seriously overblown and SOME low geared toons are useful at lower gears.

    There is one or two screenshots I've seen where people were matched because of having high ship GP to character GP which I think was a bad pairing.

    Again, mostly from personal experience, but I'm not going to let Grand Arena and TW prevent me from continuing to unlock, gearing, starring, leveling whoever I want regardless of their usage in game or dominance in meta and I haven't had any issue because of it
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    Liath wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    At g8 you could use secura (modded for potency) and Ezra (modded for speed) to kill most any g12 😂
    stuns, isolate, Thrawn can lock down any g12 while an attacker wails on em.
    You could go the insane tank route also, use zombie, srp, mission and z.. Nest.

    I should totally make a channel and just play with that.
    Ezra, Thrawn, Zombie, Nest, CLS, Chewy that DarkHelmet mentioned...

    Are these really toons serious players have at g8? Which of your g8 toons would you use?

    Nope my raid han and chewie are g12 with pieces but since the only g12 toons listed to be taken out were good toons, I thought it was only fair to use good toons too.

    And wiggs could give gmy a tough run two on one. And mine aren't geared up a lot. Though to be honest, they work best with at least a third. With a strong g12 tank to protect them , they could do well against a g12 team assuming the team can't dispel the tank easily and doesn't have a lot of health or protection regeneration.

    The point is you can make g8, g9, g10, and g11 characters work against g12 in the right teams with a bit of effort.

    Why is that the point? Even assuming you are correct and can do brilliant stuff with your g8s, if your game plan involves running a 3-man g8 wiggs team against an opponent's 3-man g12 defense you got placed in a garbage match. It's CG's responsibility to make it so people like Gannon with lots of meta chars at g8 aren't playing against people who have them at g12.

    Just for the fun of it, what kind of a matchmaking system would you consider broken? If gear level is basically irrelevant because of strategy then why not match up people purely based on player level? That'd certainly motivate people to invest and gear more.

    Why is that CG’s responsibility? He chose not to gear the meta characters, that’s his decision to live with. Why should anybody hold his hand?

    Exactly. I think Gannon is saying he can overcome some poor planning with strategy. Not that the poor planning was his goal.

    You can also overcome a great adversity with strategy to an extent. I proved that this GA. This doesn't mean the system is already fair. Also it doesn't mean an unfair system will always make unfair matches, it's just left to chance at this point, it varies greatly.

    If GP was calculated the way I've been describing this chance element would be reduced greatly and matches would mainly depend on what toons a person has invested in (and is able to), mod quality=investment differences (currently the quality of them isn't taken into account and I'm not arguing it should be), their use of that roster to good effect and some luck element in placement/what takes place during the match.

  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    I had Chewbacca at g8 for a long time

    I had hermit Yoda and was using him at g9 for a year (raids, arena, etc) until JKR came out

    I have C3PO at g8 and I'm just going to use my stun guns on other toons because he doesn't really need it and does his job well enough with just speed set mods

    All the top meta teams are pretty good at low gear. I had a low geared shoretrooper for the longest time because he was pretty beefy at lower gears and just needed to withstand the initial assault until my slower teams could move.

    We all are facing the gear bottleneck, and that's where our planning comes into place, I spent 550 carbs on Sun Fac (1 toon to g12) and you might be spending those 550 carbs to push 3 other toons to g12 instead. This is why people with similar GP have different amount of g12s or I might have more zetas than you but you might have more gear than me. Some toons are more demanding and that's where the gear difference comes into place with similar GP and I don't fault CG here but the players for their choices

    This is really not where the GP difference comes into play. Top guilds push their players to not star, level, or gear characters that aren't meta to sandbag their GP for TW (and GA). One leveled and starred character that is worthless in either mode is about 12000 gp (double that if they are a pilot). It builds up really fast and was encouraged when TB came out. There's no way to undo any of that leveling at this point and the only way to compete is to either fix the system or stop leveling/farming for new characters unless mandatory for the meta. That's just bad game design.

    If it was just how people spend their gear, sure, put people with basically the same amount of carbanti's on characters against each other. That's a decent estimation of general gear level. Don't make the g4 green gear a significant fraction of a g12 piece.

    I'm a proud sandbagger whom started to do so as soon as I saw how the matchmaking is made. I encourage all folks to do so, it's the rational thing to do to gain advantage as long as the system is as is. If GP calculation changed though, I'd go back to my old self whom pushes everything to what's possible with my resources....since I'd be getting what it's worth out of it by definition.
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    What's the G11 count?

    In my hypothetical? Even. My original post involved being down 60 g12's but up almost 20 g11s.

    u9meq8bpbckq.jpg

    And in that post you have 100 characters at g11/g12. You don't need but 3/4 of them. Yes your opponent has more but can't use the extra anyway. So you both have maxed accounts for the purposes of grand arena. The only deciding factors in your match would be what characters you chose to level and gear.

    Thanks for pointing out to one more thing that can be vastly improved:

    https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/191177/grand-arena-divisions-and-prizes#latest

  • Gannon
    1473 posts Member
    No_Try wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Yes, that is the chart I used. It's 140 for a g12 piece and 81 for a g8 piece. If you put a g12 piece on you don't get points for the components that go into the g12 piece - it's just a flat 140.

    140>81
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    I agree sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded. But the matchmaking isn't the solution to that. Tiered rewards that encourage you to grow your gp by putting you in a higher bracket would discourage sandbagging with much less effort than changing the whole matchmakimg system.

    But even as it is, most don't leave characters at level 1 because of ga. I leave useless characters at level 1 g1 because I want to have the credits for better mods or to level a good character later and the gear to gear a good character later. Eventually you realize that g7 level 50 characters add nothing to your ability to complete events. So you stop leveling useless toons.

    And mod stripping does not have a significant enough effect to drastically effect matchmaking. You may lower your gp by 50k by stripping mods but at 4.6 mil that's a rounding error.

    People who started when I did mostly have infinite credits, training droids and ability mats other than omegas and zetas. This is a strategy that I'm sure his guild uses in TW as well as GA to guarantee the best matchups for them. I'd bet his guild clears TB with full stars and that he doesn't miss out on any big deal characters. He's not saving resources, to have 137 g12 characters he must spend an absolute truckload of money on the game. Any weakness in his roster is intentional.

    not all late game players have unlimited credits. Training droids yes. But credits no. If you frequently buy mods to try and get a lot of good mods, it burns through a lot of credits pretty quick. I keep a stash of about 40 mil but that is hardly unlimited when mods go for 5mil + each and leveling them is a crapshoot. There's also the likelihood of an eventual level cap increase so I want a decent stash to level up to level 90 when that happens. It'll probably cost a couple million per toon to do so at least. So my 40 mil may get me 20 toons to level 90. I can see those wanting 100 mil or more saved. But I balance that with trying to get good mods.

    And you're not in a guild that can clear tb without further inflating your roster? At 4.6 mil gp, if you are in a guild that is made up of similar level players, that should be a walk in the park.

    And some spend money to win. Fact of life. I personally don't but can probably beat most whales at similar gp because I focus and have to make do with what I habe and the result of doing that is you get more skilled when you can't buy your way through everything.

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.

    It's not arbitrary, it's directly dependent on the gear, stars, levels, etc on a character. It tells you their power.

    It's arbitrary as it doesn't take in consideration any meaningful metric both inside the tiers and in between properties. They could have given g1-1, g2-2 GP value...and that would also be on the same arbitrariness level.

    Don't they have different gp for different parts? What do you mean their properties?

    I mean Gear vs Levels vs Stars vs Abilities in terms of GP. Current GP calculation is crooked both in terms of each tiers GP value and in between comparisons of these properties.

    Oh ok, you and I discussed that in another thread. It balances out tho, sort of, with stars v gear (as far as most stats are concerned) the abilities really depend on each toons kit to figure if it's justifiable gp

    It doesn't really balance out. Yeah we discussed it and should discuss it further it seems as much of the community is still not aware what drives the GP wedge. The system needs to be impartial and a fair assesment of these values. When we look at it in bulk it becomes obvious that my g8 characters doesn't provide half the usage value of a fully maxed g12 toon. And no, we aren't battling it out as imaginary 1 vs 1 matches, that sheds no light to what's at hand.

    Anyway, I just won a GA due to this. I was quite outmatched by the way, especially in terms of our mods. 260 10+ speeds to my 110 10+s. I'm not arguing this should also be considered for matchmaking, just putting that out.

    My opponent has already beaten a Revan player who also has beaten both of his other 2 opponents. He was a competetive with unconventional teams. It's good to note during these 2 tourneys majority of my matches settled on banner counts where both sides cleans the fields, I guess that's a norm for this GP.

    n8lsj9asye7b.png

    I am aware this goes to primarily show how uneven the toons are created, but it also shows no amount of g8s could have beaten it, rest of his left roster which probably worth somewhere along 1M-2M gp is rendered useless for any practical purpose.

    By my esmitation a G8 (otherwise maxed) toon should have the %20 GP worth of a fully maxed g12 one. Currently it's close to %50 or even higher (12k to 22k on average) What's your estimation? Do you find the current values a fair assessment of their gameplay worth?

    I'll take that bait 😂
    I think g8 is roughly a lil more than half of the gp of a g12, usually. This makes perfect seems to me. If you stick one g12 against two g8s, the g8s would have slightly better gp and should win. Depends on the toons of course, but I could take any single g12 with two of my g8s.
    Point was that toons stats all go up with each star level, and also with each gear lvl. It's separate. A g8 7* toon with have nearly the same stats as a g11 4* toon. It's all in the gp calculation, but is clearly visible in the stats of the character.

    I don't know what characters you have at g8 but taking on a g12 Nest, Revan, Traya, Sion, GMYoda, KRU, Zylo, Bossk, Zaalbar, CLS etc with two g8s seems... unlikely.

    If it's 2 on 1, as they're half the gp of a g12, then yes I could do it. Basically make the best use their kit.
    I used a g8 gk under bast lead this GA, due to the extra survivability. Won against full g12.5+ with all zetas

    Again goes to show primarily how toons are not created equal or even close to it rather than the fairness of gp calculation just like my example.

    I don't think you could come up with a way to calculate gp that would account for all the nuances of a characters kit. Certainly not one that would solve all this match up is unfair complaints. And the more complicated it gets the more open to errors it becomes. It works ok as is.

    Heh you could think of one example of how we could quantify it and thus concluded it's fine as is since you can't come up with a metric?

    Here are two metrics for you, one based on stats, other resource:

    - Use current stat multipliers for gear tiers for GP value multiplier between tiers. Incredibly simple and I can't think of why it wouldn't be fair as that's exactly the power difference the toon gets.

    - Consider all the gear pieces that goes into a gear tier. Consider the value of each gear piece based on their map energy value and correlate. This is somewhat hard since it varies from character to character. It's not a big problem characters end up with a different GP as a result though (due to resource investment difference), that's already the case.

    I don't get what you mean by stat multipliers there. There are "attributes" but those are different for each toon aren't they?

    Counting gear pieces used would end with the same issues of counting toon gp. Worse tho in some cases, if it counts specific parts, cuz some need more of specific parts than others. Either way you'd have the same ppl complaining about all the gear they have on jawas and other lower gear tier toons, same as now.

    Awhile back we spitballed some different methods of matchmaking, and the pros and cons, but they all had pretty big cons. Like counting and matching based on all the toons in the top three gear tiers you've achieved, etc, etc.

    I think what we need is the actual breakdown of how gp is calculated, as I think the ones we've covered here are wrong, or there's other factors we didn't get the right numbers for.
    I'm sure, based on what I've seen in game, that it's more accurate than ppl give it credit for. Especially considering the stat improvements from stars and gear, separately. (Ex: a 7* g8 having the same unmodded health etc as a 4* g11)
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Ultra wrote: »
    I've had zero issues in both exhibition matches, and the two 3 round Grand Arenas. I looked at the rosters and every win/loss has been super close. Some matches my opponent had more gear, and others I had the edge. I think the complaint of sandbagging is seriously overblown and SOME low geared toons are useful at lower gears.

    I think you are brushing broad strokes over the situation. People are not complaining that the people has been sandbagging all along as if they knew this day would come, the complaint...my complaint is that now we have a system that's absolutely rewarding to sandbagging. That's the best course of action you can take. Obviously it also retroactively effects many decisions we took.

    I have fluff approx. equal to 1.28M GP, isn't that seriously significant? Wouldn't that get me a serious mismatch sooner or later? Assuming the GP calculation was adjusted to reasonable rates with above considerations I've been talking about, that fluff would be much much less and it would also be in line with the usage worth of it. After that point it's purely a player decision which route to go, hoard or don't, you'll be getting exactly what you paid for.

    Post edited by No_Try on
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Yes, that is the chart I used. It's 140 for a g12 piece and 81 for a g8 piece. If you put a g12 piece on you don't get points for the components that go into the g12 piece - it's just a flat 140.

    140>81
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    I agree sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded. But the matchmaking isn't the solution to that. Tiered rewards that encourage you to grow your gp by putting you in a higher bracket would discourage sandbagging with much less effort than changing the whole matchmakimg system.

    But even as it is, most don't leave characters at level 1 because of ga. I leave useless characters at level 1 g1 because I want to have the credits for better mods or to level a good character later and the gear to gear a good character later. Eventually you realize that g7 level 50 characters add nothing to your ability to complete events. So you stop leveling useless toons.

    And mod stripping does not have a significant enough effect to drastically effect matchmaking. You may lower your gp by 50k by stripping mods but at 4.6 mil that's a rounding error.

    People who started when I did mostly have infinite credits, training droids and ability mats other than omegas and zetas. This is a strategy that I'm sure his guild uses in TW as well as GA to guarantee the best matchups for them. I'd bet his guild clears TB with full stars and that he doesn't miss out on any big deal characters. He's not saving resources, to have 137 g12 characters he must spend an absolute truckload of money on the game. Any weakness in his roster is intentional.

    not all late game players have unlimited credits. Training droids yes. But credits no. If you frequently buy mods to try and get a lot of good mods, it burns through a lot of credits pretty quick. I keep a stash of about 40 mil but that is hardly unlimited when mods go for 5mil + each and leveling them is a crapshoot. There's also the likelihood of an eventual level cap increase so I want a decent stash to level up to level 90 when that happens. It'll probably cost a couple million per toon to do so at least. So my 40 mil may get me 20 toons to level 90. I can see those wanting 100 mil or more saved. But I balance that with trying to get good mods.

    And you're not in a guild that can clear tb without further inflating your roster? At 4.6 mil gp, if you are in a guild that is made up of similar level players, that should be a walk in the park.

    And some spend money to win. Fact of life. I personally don't but can probably beat most whales at similar gp because I focus and have to make do with what I habe and the result of doing that is you get more skilled when you can't buy your way through everything.

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.

    It's not arbitrary, it's directly dependent on the gear, stars, levels, etc on a character. It tells you their power.

    It's arbitrary as it doesn't take in consideration any meaningful metric both inside the tiers and in between properties. They could have given g1-1, g2-2 GP value...and that would also be on the same arbitrariness level.

    Don't they have different gp for different parts? What do you mean their properties?

    I mean Gear vs Levels vs Stars vs Abilities in terms of GP. Current GP calculation is crooked both in terms of each tiers GP value and in between comparisons of these properties.

    Oh ok, you and I discussed that in another thread. It balances out tho, sort of, with stars v gear (as far as most stats are concerned) the abilities really depend on each toons kit to figure if it's justifiable gp

    It doesn't really balance out. Yeah we discussed it and should discuss it further it seems as much of the community is still not aware what drives the GP wedge. The system needs to be impartial and a fair assesment of these values. When we look at it in bulk it becomes obvious that my g8 characters doesn't provide half the usage value of a fully maxed g12 toon. And no, we aren't battling it out as imaginary 1 vs 1 matches, that sheds no light to what's at hand.

    Anyway, I just won a GA due to this. I was quite outmatched by the way, especially in terms of our mods. 260 10+ speeds to my 110 10+s. I'm not arguing this should also be considered for matchmaking, just putting that out.

    My opponent has already beaten a Revan player who also has beaten both of his other 2 opponents. He was a competetive with unconventional teams. It's good to note during these 2 tourneys majority of my matches settled on banner counts where both sides cleans the fields, I guess that's a norm for this GP.

    n8lsj9asye7b.png

    I am aware this goes to primarily show how uneven the toons are created, but it also shows no amount of g8s could have beaten it, rest of his left roster which probably worth somewhere along 1M-2M gp is rendered useless for any practical purpose.

    By my esmitation a G8 (otherwise maxed) toon should have the %20 GP worth of a fully maxed g12 one. Currently it's close to %50 or even higher (12k to 22k on average) What's your estimation? Do you find the current values a fair assessment of their gameplay worth?

    I'll take that bait 😂
    I think g8 is roughly a lil more than half of the gp of a g12, usually. This makes perfect seems to me. If you stick one g12 against two g8s, the g8s would have slightly better gp and should win. Depends on the toons of course, but I could take any single g12 with two of my g8s.
    Point was that toons stats all go up with each star level, and also with each gear lvl. It's separate. A g8 7* toon with have nearly the same stats as a g11 4* toon. It's all in the gp calculation, but is clearly visible in the stats of the character.

    I don't know what characters you have at g8 but taking on a g12 Nest, Revan, Traya, Sion, GMYoda, KRU, Zylo, Bossk, Zaalbar, CLS etc with two g8s seems... unlikely.

    If it's 2 on 1, as they're half the gp of a g12, then yes I could do it. Basically make the best use their kit.
    I used a g8 gk under bast lead this GA, due to the extra survivability. Won against full g12.5+ with all zetas

    Again goes to show primarily how toons are not created equal or even close to it rather than the fairness of gp calculation just like my example.

    I don't think you could come up with a way to calculate gp that would account for all the nuances of a characters kit. Certainly not one that would solve all this match up is unfair complaints. And the more complicated it gets the more open to errors it becomes. It works ok as is.

    Heh you could think of one example of how we could quantify it and thus concluded it's fine as is since you can't come up with a metric?

    Here are two metrics for you, one based on stats, other resource:

    - Use current stat multipliers for gear tiers for GP value multiplier between tiers. Incredibly simple and I can't think of why it wouldn't be fair as that's exactly the power difference the toon gets.

    - Consider all the gear pieces that goes into a gear tier. Consider the value of each gear piece based on their map energy value and correlate. This is somewhat hard since it varies from character to character. It's not a big problem characters end up with a different GP as a result though (due to resource investment difference), that's already the case.

    I don't get what you mean by stat multipliers there. There are "attributes" but those are different for each toon aren't they?

    Counting gear pieces used would end with the same issues of counting toon gp. Worse tho in some cases, if it counts specific parts, cuz some need more of specific parts than others. Either way you'd have the same ppl complaining about all the gear they have on jawas and other lower gear tier toons, same as now.

    Awhile back we spitballed some different methods of matchmaking, and the pros and cons, but they all had pretty big cons. Like counting and matching based on all the toons in the top three gear tiers you've achieved, etc, etc.

    I think what we need is the actual breakdown of how gp is calculated, as I think the ones we've covered here are wrong, or there's other factors we didn't get the right numbers for.
    I'm sure, based on what I've seen in game, that it's more accurate than ppl give it credit for. Especially considering the stat improvements from stars and gear, separately. (Ex: a 7* g8 having the same unmodded health etc as a 4* g11)

    Who's complaining about their jawas? This is unrelated to the issue unless we are arguing toon worth, I'm not doing that. And I have the **** cloaked beasts geared too. But let's seperate our As and ****. One issue at a time. This one is a non-issue to me. A new whale roster will ofc get matched with an old roster and will be quite differently competent, no problems for me.

    There are stat multipliers currently determining how much the attributes scale with gear tiers. That was what I meant.

    We are talking about how GP should be calculated. I'm not saying GP matchmaking system should be discarded, quite the contrary.

    Current system is producing many decent results and also many obnoxious examples as has been illustrated. It can be made much much better by one single tweak: reassess GP. This is very low effort and of high value return for game design perspective.

    Edit: it's called stats in the game, you confused me :P

  • Why should matchups be fair? Your arena isn’t fair, some players are rank 1 others are rank 500. Shouldn’t this carry over into the grand arena? Naturally some will be superior to others. And yes whales will have an advantage.
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