GP Matchmaking & “Fluff”

Replies

  • Kyno wrote: »
    Vicarious wrote: »
    I respect you Kyno and you may still remember me, but that’s some **** right there. Sorry to say.

    Players are being put at a disadvantage for leveling up characters, plain and simple. This has been an issue with TW matchmaking from day one. It’s now even a bigger problem for those who want to be competitive in Grand arena.

    I agree players should be selective when using their resources but shouldn’t be at a disadvantage because they have mods on all their chars and etc.

    TB a guild needs high GP to get the max stars. So we have one game mode where CG is saying Work on Everything, it will be beneficial and then we have two other game modes where CG is basically saying the opposite. Besides all that, Paper zombie. Does anything else really need to be said....

    Paper zombie

    so players who focused on different game modes being at a disadvantage to player who focused on being competitive in TW style of game play. I'm not sure how that is anything other than the way its supposed to be plain and simple.

    no this is different than TW matchmaking. that is an issue of itself but mostly based around matching vs multiple players.

    matching based on GP and other factors can work fine. and if they dont have teams or counter teams built for this style of game mode, thats their fault.

    If we knew this game mode was coming yes, otherwise how is it anyone's fault , thet didnt prepare for something they knew nothing about.
    There were no hints , no login toons that pointed to this. Introducing another game mode that punishes collectors in a collector game us just silly. Which is why i'll put one toon on defense and be done with it. Will not waste a second on a game mode that punishes me because of how i choose to play a game.
    And lastly zombie was changed because they didn't want ppl gaining an advantage for not powering up toons , well you just created a game mode , that will stop the powering up of all non meta toons , to keep gp low to face much easier opponents. Does not make much sense.
    And as far as i know total GP also includes ships even though none can be used. Which is another handicap to those who actually use and worked on a bunch of ships.

    Ships. Will. Be. Added.
  • It also bears pointing out that GA is literally being pushed as “an ultimate test of skill.” What can skill possibly matter when a collector is paired against a PVP-focused player with similar GP? If “skill” were going to play a pivotal role, you’d need to match players with similar rosters acres many metrics, and the winner would be determined by how the two players allocated their squads between attack and defense, and how efficiently they chose which counters to deploy against which defenders. Now that would be interesting. But most of the time skill just isn’t going to matter at all. All that will matter is whether you have the kind of top-heavy roster that the pairing algorithm prefers. Where’s the fun in that, for the winner or the loser?
    I demand Grand Arena Elo ratings.
  • Bulldog1205
    2182 posts Member
    edited December 7
    Kyno wrote: »
    Vicarious wrote: »
    I respect you Kyno and you may still remember me, but that’s some **** right there. Sorry to say.

    Players are being put at a disadvantage for leveling up characters, plain and simple. This has been an issue with TW matchmaking from day one. It’s now even a bigger problem for those who want to be competitive in Grand arena.

    I agree players should be selective when using their resources but shouldn’t be at a disadvantage because they have mods on all their chars and etc.

    TB a guild needs high GP to get the max stars. So we have one game mode where CG is saying Work on Everything, it will be beneficial and then we have two other game modes where CG is basically saying the opposite. Besides all that, Paper zombie. Does anything else really need to be said....

    Paper zombie

    so players who focused on different game modes being at a disadvantage to player who focused on being competitive in TW style of game play. I'm not sure how that is anything other than the way its supposed to be plain and simple.

    no this is different than TW matchmaking. that is an issue of itself but mostly based around matching vs multiple players.

    matching based on GP and other factors can work fine. and if they dont have teams or counter teams built for this style of game mode, thats their fault.

    There are 2 problems with your logic.

    1) This is a brand new game mode. How can you blame people for not developing their roster to be tailored to it when they didn’t even know about this.

    2) Improving characters elsewhere can actively hurt you in this game mode. In no other mode is that true. Improving your raid teams does not actively hurt arena squad. Sure, it’s opportunity cost and all and that’s fine, but it’s not like if you do better in raids you get moved to a harder arena shard.

    So I would agree with you that things like specific characters (Traya, Revan, etc) should not be factored in. But they shouldn’t take into account GP that isn’t being used by this mode, such as ships. I shouldn’t get an easier opponent if I choose to ignore ships. How is that in the spirit of the game.
    Post edited by Bulldog1205 on
  • well you just created a game mode , that will stop the powering up of all non meta toons , to keep gp low to face much easier opponents. Does not make much sense.
    And as far as i know total GP also includes ships even though none can be used. Which is another handicap to those who actually use and worked on a bunch of ships.

    I think the whole "fluff" thing is way overblown. I have a 7* Lobot. He's lvl 85, G7, all abilities to lvl 7 except the leader is maxed and he has 6 tier 5 mods on him. He's 12,316. Even if I had 10 of those guys, that's 120k out of my 3.239 mil GP.....hardly enough to make any significant difference in Grand Arena matchmaking one way or the other. Even if I had 20 of those guys, that's 240k GP...still not enough to really change who I might get matched up against in Grand Arena. Who knows on the GA maps once this thing starts up for real, but on this test run, I have 6 battles on my side....that's at least 12 teams total - 6 on defense and 6 on offense....12 teams is 60 characters (although theoretically there could be some battles that could be won with less than 5 characters). Sure, you might not be able to beat that 1 meta or arena team on D, but they can't put the same squad on every battle. Depth of roster seems to be rewarded in this mode.

    Also, we don't know the full formula for the matchmaking and it's a test run of a brand-new game mode. Does anyone really think the matchmaking formula won't be tweaked repeatedly over time? It's a little early to call the sky is falling on entire game mode when we haven't even played it once yet.

    As for ships, they've already said ships will be in Grand Arena.....this is just a test run against 1 person and not the full game mode. I'm sure we'll have ships when we start playing the full mode. Also, if you click on your name and go to "stats", there are separate character and ship GP numbers there....I'm sure that won't matter in the full mode though as we will have ships so there will be no reason to exclude ship GP.
  • 3pourr2
    1341 posts Member
    Im matched with similar gp but that poor fella only has one gear 12. :'(
  • well you just created a game mode , that will stop the powering up of all non meta toons , to keep gp low to face much easier opponents. Does not make much sense.
    And as far as i know total GP also includes ships even though none can be used. Which is another handicap to those who actually use and worked on a bunch of ships.

    I think the whole "fluff" thing is way overblown. I have a 7* Lobot. He's lvl 85, G7, all abilities to lvl 7 except the leader is maxed and he has 6 tier 5 mods on him. He's 12,316. Even if I had 10 of those guys, that's 120k out of my 3.239 mil GP.....hardly enough to make any significant difference in Grand Arena matchmaking one way or the other.

    @Vos_Landeck Observe my guildmate's matchup.
    image0.jpg?width=347&height=601
    image0.jpg?width=335&height=600

    GP is almost identical. However, notice the disparity in G12 toons versus G11/10/9, and especially G8.
    #CloneHelmets4Life...VICTORY!!!! :smiley: "I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere."
  • VonZant
    1509 posts Member
    Skill is relative. This is a long-term strategy game with some tactical elements. You have to be good at both. Planning your roster long term and playing the short-term battles/events/TW/etc.

    While there are lots of metrics that could be used, doesn't mean they they are all useful for matchmaking. The problem is that pretty quickly you will run out of even matches. GP is the best constant. After that there are only so many people that the Arena top 200 or bottom 2000 people can fight against. Also, it is easy for a rank 2000 person to have the exact same roster and GP as a rank 200 person. They just don't know or care or have the ability to play at the same level. It is also possible for a 1.7M GP player to be ranked in top 10 with people that have 3M + GP. For the same reason you will probably get people of mismatched GP against each other.

    Just because you are good enough to have a full g8 Phoenix team ready for the Thrawn event does not mean you can get Thrawn. Some people get him with g8, some have to have g10 characters to do it.

    I'm guessing they dont only use GP as the sole criteria. I'm also guessing they will never tell us the exact formulae because min-maxers will job the system. I'm also sure they will contine to tweak it.

    Just my opinion.
  • Kyno
    17443 posts Moderator
    Vicarious wrote: »
    Darnesswon-

    Ships will be used in some of the later Grand Arena tournaments but I obviously agree 100% with everything else you said.

    Kyno-

    A long distance runner and a sprinter train differently because they are competing in two completely different events. They dont have to and won’t face each other.



    correct, they both focus on different areas. that doesn't make them not both classified as runners. but it does mean that they do things differently and some are good in one area that the other is not.

    players are the same way. they have built for different game modes. collecting vs being competitive in various degrees. someone who has built a wide collection may not be able to compete against someone who has built up for TW.

    Kyno wrote: »
    Vicarious wrote: »
    I respect you Kyno and you may still remember me, but that’s some **** right there. Sorry to say.

    Players are being put at a disadvantage for leveling up characters, plain and simple. This has been an issue with TW matchmaking from day one. It’s now even a bigger problem for those who want to be competitive in Grand arena.

    I agree players should be selective when using their resources but shouldn’t be at a disadvantage because they have mods on all their chars and etc.

    TB a guild needs high GP to get the max stars. So we have one game mode where CG is saying Work on Everything, it will be beneficial and then we have two other game modes where CG is basically saying the opposite. Besides all that, Paper zombie. Does anything else really need to be said....

    Paper zombie

    so players who focused on different game modes being at a disadvantage to player who focused on being competitive in TW style of game play. I'm not sure how that is anything other than the way its supposed to be plain and simple.

    no this is different than TW matchmaking. that is an issue of itself but mostly based around matching vs multiple players.

    matching based on GP and other factors can work fine. and if they dont have teams or counter teams built for this style of game mode, thats their fault.

    If we knew this game mode was coming yes, otherwise how is it anyone's fault , thet didnt prepare for something they knew nothing about.
    There were no hints , no login toons that pointed to this. Introducing another game mode that punishes collectors in a collector game us just silly. Which is why i'll put one toon on defense and be done with it. Will not waste a second on a game mode that punishes me because of how i choose to play a game.
    And lastly zombie was changed because they didn't want ppl gaining an advantage for not powering up toons , well you just created a game mode , that will stop the powering up of all non meta toons , to keep gp low to face much easier opponents. Does not make much sense.
    And as far as i know total GP also includes ships even though none can be used. Which is another handicap to those who actually use and worked on a bunch of ships.

    I'm not saying we knew what was coming, but competitive player have been honing their TW teams and counter teams. That is the build that would end up being better suited for this.

    collecting with no point is a great venture, but is not the build of someone who is trying to be competitive. and yes if you are a collector for a collectings sake then you will not be the best in a competitive mode. its not what you trained for.
  • My GA match seems really fair. I am probably going to lose, but the match based on roster looks pretty close. I can't complain.
  • TVF
    7641 posts Member
    edited December 7
    My opponent and I have almost the same GP. They have 19 zetas I have 30. They have 1 G12 I have 33.

    They have 1 G12.

    Similar collections?

    With that said, if you have 3m GP and just 1 G12, you kinda deserve this matchup.

    I'll bet they have a ton of the gold eyeball challenge gear though!
  • @kyno It would be an insult to the marathoner, the sprinter, and the spectators to ask those two to race.
    I demand Grand Arena Elo ratings.
  • Kyno
    17443 posts Moderator
    kyno It would be an insult to the marathoner, the sprinter, and the spectators to ask those two to race.

    my point is that they are classified the same they are both runners, but built and trained to do 2 different things.

    much like players of a game. some built to collect and other built to be competitive. the collector will be at a disadvantage in TW or GA, they will likely have an advantage across other game modes, especially when something new arrives.

    some have invested to be both (with time and/or $$).
  • Kyno wrote: »
    kyno It would be an insult to the marathoner, the sprinter, and the spectators to ask those two to race.

    my point is that they are classified the same they are both runners, but built and trained to do 2 different things.

    much like players of a game. some built to collect and other built to be competitive. the collector will be at a disadvantage in TW or GA, they will likely have an advantage across other game modes, especially when something new arrives.

    some have invested to be both (with time and/or $$).

    I understand your point. Understand mine. No one is going to have any fun in that matchup.
    I demand Grand Arena Elo ratings.
  • This is looking like it's purely GP matchmaking. Everyone I know playing this game have pretty lopsided matches ahead. Sure, it's the beta if you will but to say that matchmaking based off of GP can work just isn't true. Hopefully they address it in the near future but I'm still excited about the new mode. But they did match the GP pretty well but it's obvious that GP alone is a terrible indicator of overall strength.

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  • CaptainRex wrote: »
    Kyno and Vicarious are talking about two different things (sort of). Both are related to GP, but Kyno is talking about how GP is focused, whereas Vicarious is talking about the overall concept of GP, and how CG has directly stated they want to reward players for leveling/gearing/etc toons and making progress, which is not happening in TW and Grand Arena, because of "fluff".
    (At least that's how I'm reading both your points, correct me if I'm wrong :smiley:)

    Correct

  • Ultra
    1151 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    My opponent and I have almost the same GP. They have 19 zetas I have 30. They have 1 G12 I have 33.

    They have 1 G12.

    Similar collections?

    With that said, if you have 3m GP and just 1 G12, you kinda deserve this matchup.

    I'll bet they have a ton of the gold eyeball challenge gear though!
    My old guild leader refused to go to g12 even if he had all the necessary gear

    He reached 3 million GP without a single gold toon and I feel like your opponent has the same mindset
  • Ultra wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    My opponent and I have almost the same GP. They have 19 zetas I have 30. They have 1 G12 I have 33.

    They have 1 G12.

    Similar collections?

    With that said, if you have 3m GP and just 1 G12, you kinda deserve this matchup.

    I'll bet they have a ton of the gold eyeball challenge gear though!
    My old guild leader refused to go to g12 even if he had all the necessary gear

    He reached 3 million GP without a single gold toon and I feel like your opponent has the same mindset

    Why would someone do this? G12 makes the character you’re upgrading more effective. Why just stop?
  • The simplest way to fix or at least mitigate the problem is to tweak the gp you get from adding g12 gear. The problem is that each piece of g12 gear provides a huge bonus to the toon but only a couple of hundred GP. I think if you increased the gp from g12 gear by 10x you see some viable advantages to a broader deck vs a tall.

    That said I honestly don't understand all the angst.
    The collectors have bad arena ratings because they focus their resources on trash characters. Most of the ones I've seen have an arena rank in the 1,000's. If you have been ok with an arena rank in the 1,000's why do you think you should have a good shot at taking 1st place in the "Grand Arena"?

    Finally because the arena is awarding prizes on each round and the losers from the first round are matched together in the 2nd round then the collectors are likely going to be competing against each other in the second round. Likewise winners from round 1 will likely be all tall decks so the arena by its nature will become more competitive and fair each round as those with competitive advantages are matched up with others of the same advantages.

    Also as a side note it's been stated that the GA will have different rules periodically so the next one might be all ships. Those who have focused on ships may have the same GP as someone who avoided ships and have a clear advantage. Or they could do one where the number of defense spots is doubled giving a clear advantage to the collectors.
  • Moldrak wrote: »
    The collectors have bad arena ratings because they focus their resources on trash characters. Most of the ones I've seen have an arena rank in the 1,000's. If you have been ok with an arena rank in the 1,000's why do you think you should have a good shot at taking 1st place in the "Grand Arena"?

    I don’t know if we have the same definition of “collectors.” And I’m not really saying that collectors “deserve” win in GA. But it does frankly seem kind of redundant for the exact same people who chase every meta in the arena to have the advantage in the new game mode as well. If that were the goal, why not just sweeten the rewards for arena. I was looking forward to GA because I thought it might be an individual game mode that rewarded real roster depth. But it just doesn’t.
    Moldrak wrote: »
    Finally because the arena is awarding prizes on each round and the losers from the first round are matched together in the 2nd round then the collectors are likely going to be competing against each other in the second round. Likewise winners from round 1 will likely be all tall decks so the arena by its nature will become more competitive and fair each round as those with competitive advantages are matched up with others of the same advantages.

    I’ll grant you that if the exhibition we’re running in the 3-round format, my reaction would have been a lot milder, fr exactly the reasons you lay out.
    I demand Grand Arena Elo ratings.
  • Ultra
    1151 posts Member
    BrtStlnd wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    My opponent and I have almost the same GP. They have 19 zetas I have 30. They have 1 G12 I have 33.

    They have 1 G12.

    Similar collections?

    With that said, if you have 3m GP and just 1 G12, you kinda deserve this matchup.

    I'll bet they have a ton of the gold eyeball challenge gear though!
    My old guild leader refused to go to g12 even if he had all the necessary gear

    He reached 3 million GP without a single gold toon and I feel like your opponent has the same mindset

    Why would someone do this? G12 makes the character you’re upgrading more effective. Why just stop?
    This was before g12+ and 6 dot mods were a thing, he caved in eventually

    He just liked being different and having the only purple team in a sea of gold in arena and went on for a couple of months without a single g12 toon. Wampa was his first g12 toon
  • I don’t think the matchmaking of gp vs gp is best for the long term enjoyment of the game. In my matchup for this GA I’m very closely matched to another 5m gp player and I need to set 7 teams for defense and will require at least 7 teams for offense. The difference between us though are significant. He has close to 60 zetas on his toons while I have mid 30s. As a result he has vastly more viable teams for defense and for offense while I will be really struggling to compete.

    I really think careful consideration by CG is required in the GA matchmaking formulas (considering g12+, zeta counts, 6* mods etc) This looks like it has the potential to be a lot of fun but if people are consistently going to be disadvantaged due to “whaling” on their collection and an inflated gp it will actually lead to less ppl wanting to spend to improve their collections.
  • Exactly

    Seems like CG would be against players wanting to avoid working on their collections. I don’t get it.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Crumb literally said that GP is the only factor they are using to matchmaking

    EDIT:
    3j10rnpp5i2f.png
    Spoilered for size

    Where? you added the link after i wrote this.

    I will ping him for clarification on that. because overall post on GA, sounds different than that.

    4p4n5p2zghtr.png
    This is what i have seen about matchmaking. it sounds like they are using the TW matching system. just tuned to 1 player.

    @Kyno I believe he is referring to the brackets described at length in the news post, which indeed indicate that gp is quite decisive

    In regards to the whole “you become as you train analogy” I’d suggest you watch this TED that pertains to how the selection of the right athlete predispositions have significant causality with the improved feats by modern athletes

    My point is that comparing sprinters and marathon runners under the superordinate category runners is just as arbitrary as swgoh and CS:GO gamers

  • @kyno It would be an insult to the marathoner, the sprinter, and the spectators to ask those two to race.

    To use that analogy if you made the sprinters and marathoners race a 50 yard dash. Obviously all the sprinters win round 1. Round 2 all the sprinters are competing against other sprinters and likewise all the marathoners are competing against each other. It no longer matters what kind of race you are running because you are competing against people with an equivalent skill set.

    The 3rd round it's not sprinters vs marathoners but slow marathoners vs other slow marathoners as the competition gets more equal.

    Since you get roughly half the prize for second place if you're matched up with someone you can't beat you can literally deploy and for 30 seconds of effort you get some nice gear. Then in the second round you will face a more competitive match. Even if you lose all 3 rounds that's the equivalent of 1 win and 1 loss and you literally have to do nothing but deploy on the first round to get it.

    The end result is a bell shaped curve where something like 80% of participants getting the equivalent of 2 wins or 2 wins 1 loss. While the top 10% get 3 wins and the bottom 1 win 1 loss rewards. As opposed to the regular arena where the top 10% get pretty much everything.
  • Moldrak wrote: »
    @kyno It would be an insult to the marathoner, the sprinter, and the spectators to ask those two to race.

    To use that analogy if you made the sprinters and marathoners race a 50 yard dash. Obviously all the sprinters win round 1. Round 2 all the sprinters are competing against other sprinters and likewise all the marathoners are competing against each other. It no longer matters what kind of race you are running because you are competing against people with an equivalent skill set.

    The 3rd round it's not sprinters vs marathoners but slow marathoners vs other slow marathoners as the competition gets more equal.

    Since you get roughly half the prize for second place if you're matched up with someone you can't beat you can literally deploy and for 30 seconds of effort you get some nice gear. Then in the second round you will face a more competitive match. Even if you lose all 3 rounds that's the equivalent of 1 win and 1 loss and you literally have to do nothing but deploy on the first round to get it.

    The end result is a bell shaped curve where something like 80% of participants getting the equivalent of 2 wins or 2 wins 1 loss. While the top 10% get 3 wins and the bottom 1 win 1 loss rewards. As opposed to the regular arena where the top 10% get pretty much everything.

    It would still be preferable for everybody to have three rounds of decent competition than one round where we’re all bored followed by two rounds of decent competition.
    I demand Grand Arena Elo ratings.
  • No one will be good in every mode unless they super-whale. Grand Arena is fun, but if you can do well in TB or even personally in TW, Grand Arena will be harder, and then the reverse is true as well. Every mode pulls at different strengths. Don’t try to win them all, just have fun and kick back. Winning definitely helps with fun, but don’t let it define your fun. And for any that it does, take a tiny break if you can pull yourself away. Remind yourself it’s a game and it’s supposed to just be a blast playing as your dream character in a dream team beating the snot out of the other guy. I took a long hiatus, came back, and love this game more than I could’ve otherwise. Best decision I made. Sorry for the essay, but just take it easy as you can. Being competitive is fun, but too much sucks the fun out of this game.
  • Gair
    142 posts Member
    CaptainRex wrote: »
    GP is almost identical. However, notice the disparity in G12 toons versus G11/10/9, and especially G8.

    Problem I currently have in my matchup. Same GP , but huge variance in the quality of characters.

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