GP Matchmaking & “Fluff”

Replies

  • Gorem
    628 posts Member
    edited December 7
    The way I see it is that its just like TW, sometimes you'll get people to steamroll, other times people will steamroll you and rarely you get a match that's actually an even good fight. Just gotta hope to get more of the rare actual even good fights then not.

    But since its like TW and how bad the matchmaking is there most of the time - its terrible right now. Maybe changes down the line fixes it.

    I mean we told them SO many times from multiple people that basing it off GP is wrong. GP means nothing Gp actually means literally squat when it comes to how strong a player is.

    I have near 2mil gp and there is 3.5mil gp players that I could squash. Mods and Gear and the right toons are what matters. Never GP....

    Edit: Though what seems to be worse is that Ship GP was included in these matchups, so people with more ships then toons will be at the most disadvantage here. (Untill we get ship area's)
  • SmilinStonee
    136 posts Member
    edited December 7
    Judging by heavy gp outmaches, wheres the assurance that the losers of those rounds wont end up pounding the lower gp crowd next
    4.1mil wins from 3.7
    Then
    3.7 beats some 3.1(winner)
  • It would still be preferable for everybody to have three rounds of decent competition than one round where we’re all bored followed by two rounds of decent competition.

    Of course that would be great but this is a very complex game with hundreds of characters and millions of combinations of gear mods zetas etc. A G10 night sister squad will beat a g12 Phoenix squad on auto. Trying to match people based on 5 variables (say GP, gear, Zetas, mods, meta toon) is very complex. How many mods is a zeta worth? How many +10 speed mods is a is a +20 speed mod worth? Etc.

    Even if they could achieve perfect matches across all the variables. Then everyone would complain about the RNG and how that's not competitive. Not to mention when you get that specific you will probably end up competing against the same 3 people every time.
  • I mean I think this isnt that spectacular of a game mode at all. It’s a singular version of TW rather than a guild vs guild setting. They honestly should have just created a ship raid, made the OG falcon the prize and gone with that.
  • HAHA

    EA/CG doesn´t want to sell anything in future^^
    every 7* toon that is not g12+ is a disadavantage in this new grand arena... and every ship is also a disadvantage...

    you want to stop us buying new toons/ships? well EA/CG if that is your intention you could have said us instead of implementing grand arena matchmaking^^
  • Looking at the rewards our only recourse is either tow the line and get slaughtered if we have a collection roster or sit out and miss some mod slicing stuff. If we have an arena/TW collection then at best you get bragging rights to some faceless opponents and some mod slicing stuff. Just seems kind of player base splitting no matter what you focused on.
  • You can't always win in this game. I usually focus on only one team, I take them to g12 and I select another team. I have 36 G12 and I'm paired with a player with only 20 G12, with very bad mods.
    From my point of view this is fine, the players choose their way to play the game, they have different motivations for playing the game. Why should I be paired only with players with my same motivation? It's like building different arena server for different types of players. In TB I could have better rewards if I decide to maximize my GP, why should I be penalized for focusing only on a team? Different situazion, same problem.
    It's the game, you can't win in all the aspects of the game. You have to choose.
  • I was only trying to show both sides of the discussion. Personally I’m a collector that plays a hybrid style. I do decent in arena and in tb/tw. Just pointing out that this could further divide the player base
  • jedilord
    271 posts Member
    edited December 7
    Mike_ITA wrote: »
    YIn TB I could have better rewards if I decide to maximize my GP, why should I be penalized for focusing only on a team? Different situazion, same problem.

    no it´s not the same problem, because your guildmates carry you over the TB (the selfish guy who seemingly does nothing for his guild) and additionally all who are participiating are getting the same rewards!

    so if all who are participiating would get the same reward you can compare TB with grand arena^^
  • TWings
    15 posts Member
    edited December 7
    Also got a bad match making... My oponent got twice the number of G12 I have and about 10 more zeta. The only thing that I have more than him is number of toons and number of 7 stars (which most are g1 lvl 1, just for the sake of my guild in TB).

    So am I supposed to fight zetaed G12 teams with waves of lvl 1 teams ?

    The matchmaking needs to be changed to not be based only on GP. Checking at least the number of geared characters and zetas should be included in the equation. Or else change the GP values to reflect the real difference between levels and gear (seriously three our four 7 stars character lvl 1 shouldn't be worth as much as a g12 toon...).
    It's really not about wining or loosing, it's about having fun. It's a game alright ? Because I bet neither me nor my oponent will have any fun in this match.
    I don't mind a challenge, I don't mind loosing a fair fight, but I really don't see the point in puting two uneven players against each other.
  • No_Try
    1170 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »

    matching based on GP and other factors can work fine. and if they dont have teams or counter teams built for this style of game mode, thats their fault.

    How does having leveled all toons/abilities and putting fully leveled mods on all mean I'm not cut for this game mode? I did it because I could with zero impact to how usable my properly geared toons are. I'm still sitting on a 140M credit pile after the fact.

    The problem is how the matchmaking is made, not whether I'm cut for it or not. My roster is already extremely competetive in the practically usable portion of it. It's the system that's punishing me with implementing the matchmaking purely based on GP.

    There are many alternatives such as toon gp cutoffs or gear cutoffs offered as soon as GA is announced and before it was implemented.

    It's a good time to stop drawing useless correlations and look at what the actual situation is in actual game terms.
  • Well said
  • jedilord wrote: »
    Mike_ITA wrote: »
    YIn TB I could have better rewards if I decide to maximize my GP, why should I be penalized for focusing only on a team? Different situazion, same problem.

    no it´s not the same problem, because your guildmates carry you over the TB (the selfish guy who seemingly does nothing for his guild) and additionally all who are participiating are getting the same rewards!

    so if all who are participiating would get the same reward you can compare TB with grand arena^^

    I don't agree. It's not matter of selfishness or not, it's a matter of what you like and what you don't like in this game. Do you prefer pvp? Pve? Both? You'll have different performance in some aspects of the game.
    In the match someone will always lose, if you are more pvp oriented you should have more victories that losses, why this is a problem?

    What do you suggest as solution?
    Same numbers of G12? Or Zeta? Or G12 and zeta? Or G12, G11, zeta and number of mods over a certain speed? And which speed? Or numbers of 6E? Legendary unlocked? Types of team? Average time passed in the game? Number of characters at level 85?
  • No_Try
    1170 posts Member
    well you just created a game mode , that will stop the powering up of all non meta toons , to keep gp low to face much easier opponents. Does not make much sense.
    And as far as i know total GP also includes ships even though none can be used. Which is another handicap to those who actually use and worked on a bunch of ships.

    I think the whole "fluff" thing is way overblown. I have a 7* Lobot. He's lvl 85, G7, all abilities to lvl 7 except the leader is maxed and he has 6 tier 5 mods on him. He's 12,316. Even if I had 10 of those guys, that's 120k out of my 3.239 mil GP.....hardly enough to make any significant difference in Grand Arena matchmaking one way or the other. Even if I had 20 of those guys, that's 240k GP...still not enough to really change who I might get matched up against in Grand Arena. Who knows on the GA maps once this thing starts up for real, but on this test run, I have 6 battles on my side....that's at least 12 teams total - 6 on defense and 6 on offense....12 teams is 60 characters (although theoretically there could be some battles that could be won with less than 5 characters). Sure, you might not be able to beat that 1 meta or arena team on D, but they can't put the same squad on every battle. Depth of roster seems to be rewarded in this mode.

    Also, we don't know the full formula for the matchmaking and it's a test run of a brand-new game mode. Does anyone really think the matchmaking formula won't be tweaked repeatedly over time? It's a little early to call the sky is falling on entire game mode when we haven't even played it once yet.

    As for ships, they've already said ships will be in Grand Arena.....this is just a test run against 1 person and not the full game mode. I'm sure we'll have ships when we start playing the full mode. Also, if you click on your name and go to "stats", there are separate character and ship GP numbers there....I'm sure that won't matter in the full mode though as we will have ships so there will be no reason to exclude ship GP.

    We do know the full matchmaking formula, it's purely based on GP as evidenced by Crumb's reply to my question on the first few pages update notes thread.

    Check my roster on my sig and tell me if my fluff makes any difference.
  • Apologies if this has already been suggested but surely the simplest fix for matchups is to have you select the characters you are going to enter into the arena when you join?
    So based on your GP you know how many slots are going to be available, slots x 5 (chars per slot) x 2 (defense and attack squads) = total number of players you will select (for the uninterested default to your top n chars). In this way the match making can be much fairer and the whole thing closer to "skill" than purely collection based (there might need to be some restrictions so you can't just use level 1/gear 1 chars, or maybe you are forced to use at least your top 40 characters and select the rest etc...). This would eliminate scoring based on multiple attacks, not sure if that is good or bad.
  • Also food for thought for whomever it may concern: Ship GP is over inflated as a value in general. In TW, ship battles only account for 1/5 of the entire event. Yet it accounts for about 1/2 of a players GP (mods on pilots, ship abilities, etc). Using total GP for matchmaking in TW and Grand Arena in its own right is a huge problem of this whole system. Consider GP matchmaking as the two factors that they are: Ship and Toon GPs. Make them both separate matching factors, not one bundled.

    Worse offer, consider reworking ship GP over inflation. If its taken care of, the matching in TW and GA would be alot closer if values of ship GP factors (mods, abilities, pilot gear) are not sky high as they are now. So that players who are invested in fleet arena are not punished during TW and GA(where ships play 1/5 or 1/3 of the whole event while accounting for roughly 1/2 of a players GP). Its getting painfully obvious that ship GP is the problem to the matchmaking complaints of PvP events. Oh and also, that would come with a rework of ship aspect of TB.
    Or just get rid of crew power GP all together, and adjust TB ship sectors' scores required for stars.
  • As someone who leveled every character to level 85 and gl7 (something i am actually proud of) this is a game mode that will not be great for me. I am not bothered by it as like Arena it is a part of the game I will do as well as I can in but at the end of the day I can put my device down and it doesn't matter if I win or lose. The match ups will never be perfect but will balance out over time when they factor in wins and losses. The PvP focused players will rise to the top and have to face each other, while the collectors like me will fall into our own brackets and continue to have fun.

    I am not going to say "if you don't like it quit" because if any of us could do that would we really come here to the forums and complain. What I will say is remember this is a game and personally doesn't pay my bills so enjoy what you like and have a go at the rest. How you play the game is up to you, there is not one best approach so have fun and try not to take it too seriously
  • Why do I always find this war against kyno and whoever that disagree, so funny? :D
  • No_Try
    1170 posts Member
    As someone who leveled every character to level 85 and gl7 (something i am actually proud of) this is a game mode that will not be great for me. I am not bothered by it as like Arena it is a part of the game I will do as well as I can in but at the end of the day I can put my device down and it doesn't matter if I win or lose. The match ups will never be perfect but will balance out over time when they factor in wins and losses. The PvP focused players will rise to the top and have to face each other, while the collectors like me will fall into our own brackets and continue to have fun.

    I am not going to say "if you don't like it quit" because if any of us could do that would we really come here to the forums and complain. What I will say is remember this is a game and personally doesn't pay my bills so enjoy what you like and have a go at the rest. How you play the game is up to you, there is not one best approach so have fun and try not to take it too seriously

    W/L only works within a single 8 player ladder as far as I understood it.
  • No_Try
    1170 posts Member
    edited December 7
    Gamorrean wrote: »
    Why do I always find this war against kyno and whoever that disagree, so funny? :D

    Maybe because he acts as if he doesn't have any biases when he underlines other people's. Don't take it as an attack btw, just drawing a comparison. Every people who has ever lived has a plethora of cognitive biases.
  • TWings
    15 posts Member
    edited December 7
    No_Try wrote: »
    W/L only works within a single 8 player ladder as far as I understood it.

    That's how I understood it too.
    It would be indeed a lot better if it was taken into consideration for next GAs as it would most likely increase the likelihood of good matching over time. But, the way it was said seem to imply otherwise.
  • No_Try
    1170 posts Member
    Mike_ITA wrote: »
    jedilord wrote: »
    Mike_ITA wrote: »
    YIn TB I could have better rewards if I decide to maximize my GP, why should I be penalized for focusing only on a team? Different situazion, same problem.

    no it´s not the same problem, because your guildmates carry you over the TB (the selfish guy who seemingly does nothing for his guild) and additionally all who are participiating are getting the same rewards!

    so if all who are participiating would get the same reward you can compare TB with grand arena^^

    I don't agree. It's not matter of selfishness or not, it's a matter of what you like and what you don't like in this game. Do you prefer pvp? Pve? Both? You'll have different performance in some aspects of the game.
    In the match someone will always lose, if you are more pvp oriented you should have more victories that losses, why this is a problem?

    What do you suggest as solution?
    Same numbers of G12? Or Zeta? Or G12 and zeta? Or G12, G11, zeta and number of mods over a certain speed? And which speed? Or numbers of 6E? Legendary unlocked? Types of team? Average time passed in the game? Number of characters at level 85?

    This topic is rather about fluff GP caused by practically unusable portion of our rosters which differs from player to player.

    All the factors you've listed can be used different weights, why not? It's not about being the one to win, but about having as close as a match as possible where player's strategy and skill is main determiner of the outcome. Wouldn't you enjoy it more if you realistically have a chance to win due to choices you make (rather than one where the outcome is predetermined or the chances are severely lopsided as soon as the matchmaking is made) ?
  • Commander_Wolffe
    88 posts Member
    edited December 7
    "similar collections" - ha, that's a lie.

    My opponent and I have nearly identical GP. However, he has no ships. This means his character GP/inventory is twice the size of my character inventory.

    How is competing against someone who is twice your GP (400k vs 800k) a "similar collection" of characters because no fleet involved in GA. Even if there were 1 single battle of fleet, it's still weighted 50/50 with char/fleet.

    This penalizes anyone who has ships. It's not about 2 different runners (sprinter and marathon runner) which is a false equivalency.

    We KNOW the race - it's squad battle using characters - that's the race. That's what we're comparing GP against.

    My 400k character GP vs his 800k character GP.

    If there were exactly the same number of fleet battles in GA, then it would be my 400k vs his 0 ship GP, but there's zero, zilch, none fleet battles so fleet GP should be ignored.

    If he doesn't want to play with ships, that's perfectly fine, but for CG/EA to say that 400 GP vs 800 GP is balanced or "similar collections" then they are seriously wrong.
  • I think most of you miss that Grand Arena will be a 3 ROUND EVENT:

    1° Round: ''BAD'' PLAYER MATCHED WITH BETTER PLAYER WILL LOSE
    2° Round: ''BAD'' PLAYER MAY WILL MATCHED WITH A ''BAD'' PLAYER that lost the previous round
    3° Round: IS VERY PROBABLY THINK THAT ''BAD'' PLAYERS WITH 0 WINS WILL BE MATCHED TOGETHER and have a close battle.

    So during the entire event even a not competitive player with wider roster but less modded/geared has chance to find at least one time another player with similar roster.

    The event is planned fairly, it's a grand ARENA. In normal arena who has better toons/gear/mods/defence/zeta usually wins the best prizes. The same should happen here according to the aim they explained in the announcement : find the best swgoh player.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    kyno It would be an insult to the marathoner, the sprinter, and the spectators to ask those two to race.

    my point is that they are classified the same they are both runners, but built and trained to do 2 different things.

    much like players of a game. some built to collect and other built to be competitive. the collector will be at a disadvantage in TW or GA, they will likely have an advantage across other game modes, especially when something new arrives.

    some have invested to be both (with time and/or $$).

    No point in arguing with this guy... Even when his point is flawed he is doubling down on it...

    Fact is, it's another flawed matchmaking system in another poorly designed, recycled idea.
    I honestly think the cannot come up with a perfect matchmaking system because of the way the game is designed.
  • Kyno
    17322 posts Moderator
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »

    matching based on GP and other factors can work fine. and if they dont have teams or counter teams built for this style of game mode, thats their fault.

    How does having leveled all toons/abilities and putting fully leveled mods on all mean I'm not cut for this game mode? I did it because I could with zero impact to how usable my properly geared toons are. I'm still sitting on a 140M credit pile after the fact.

    The problem is how the matchmaking is made, not whether I'm cut for it or not. My roster is already extremely competetive in the practically usable portion of it. It's the system that's punishing me with implementing the matchmaking purely based on GP.

    There are many alternatives such as toon gp cutoffs or gear cutoffs offered as soon as GA is announced and before it was implemented.

    It's a good time to stop drawing useless correlations and look at what the actual situation is in actual game terms.

    If you have the right toons, meaning the better defensive teams and the counters built to counter said teams, with some other good mixes built up, than you should be able to win. If this ^^ is the case and you lose, I'm not sure that is the matchmaking over user error.

    2 players can be fairly matched with GP as a consideration, and GP should be a consideration. No it should not be the only factor. But saying things like someone with revan(or X toon) should only be matched with someone else who has revan (or X toon) is a stretch.

    The way we are all matched in this game is with time (time = $$) they changed GP to exactly match " time" because it is just a value of how much investment you have put into a toon. Now if someone put that investment into CLS vs CUP, that is a players choice and they should have to deal with those consequences.

    Factors that should be considered as far as game play is concerned should follow that same line, not character specific but development specific
    I.e.

    i.e.
    - # g12 toons
    - # zetas

    Might be odd but
    - # of raids completed
    - arena wins

    Maybe some others, but IMO those are the game parameters that allow players to have "equal" development and let their choice about development help or hurt them.

    All that said, all those factors affect GP directly, which is why GP should still be a factor. Maybe not as much as they have used it, but they need to have a starting point for the grouping of players.

    I will also add, that I believe this launch is more of a soft launch of the game mode that was used to test the match making in a kind of mass open beta.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Place 2 Olympic level runners in a race, the can both have the best mile times and may even be close.

    One runs marathons and the other shorter races.

    They are equals athletically and in many respects, but one will have a clear advantage in a marathon.

    It's about how you build your roster and how you develop in the game. If you developed more competitively or not. That's the players choice.

    So it's official. Leveling your toons (because you can, you have the resources, you like the toons) is the equivalent of lying down and saying I don't want to play against someone of the same level as me.

    SWEET!!! FYI - I'm matched against someone with 14 more gold halo toons, 18 more zetas, plus toons I have no chance against - gold zeta leg rey (also enough toons for a full gold resistance team), zeta traya (she's only G12 but again - also enough toons for a full gold sith team backing her).

    But hey I guess that's my fault for caring about ships. My fault too for liking star wars and wanting to collect the chars.

    Well I've put all my lvl 1 grey teams on defence and not gonna bother having a fight.

    At least I'm not the only one. My entire guild (well okay those on members on chat and chatting) is in the same position. Including the guild leader, and newer/older players.

    @Kyno I say this with respect (because I like you, and you're generally reasonable). But matchmaking being based off comparable collections - that's what we call ****. And frankly your quoted response above is no better. You think your olympics analogy is at all relevant? The problem with it is simple - you put those two athletes in a marathon and the marathon running wins. You put them in a sprint. The sprinter wins. You don't go up to the loser and accuse them of not being competitive, or not training right, or not being committed.

    You also don't wait until three years into their training and then go - hey marathon runners - we're only doing sprints now. Your fault.

    Basically what you’re saying is: “it’s not fair that I will have to fight against another player that has focused more on PvP than I have, because I like to collect differently. This content shouldn’t exist because it’s not the way I’ve built my roster.”

    As has been said before, those players with leaner GP, more focused and top-heavy rosters are at a disadvantage in modes like TB and raids. Now, in addition to TW there’s a game mode built for players that collect in that manner as well. I’m sorry you don’t like it.

    Lastly, this is not the full GA experience. If future seasons, if you run into a PvP buzz saw in the first round you’ll be paired against another player that lost their first match. You will end up fighting a LOT of rosters similar to your own. There are TONS of players that collect the way you do.
  • Jeric
    221 posts Member
    edited December 7
    Kyno wrote: »
    Place 2 Olympic level runners in a race, the can both have the best mile times and may even be close.

    One runs marathons and the other shorter races.

    They are equals athletically and in many respects, but one will have a clear advantage in a marathon.

    It's about how you build your roster and how you develop in the game. If you developed more competitively or not. That's the players choice.

    So keeping with that metaphor they should consider two versions of Grand Arena. One for the sprinters and one for the marathon runners. A few key changes to matchmaking and character bonus parameters would give an edge to those with greater breadth of a roster.

    I’m currently matched with someone with 200k higher GP but no Revan, Bastila, Traya, or Chewie. He is at a huge disadvantage from go. The challenge is significantly reduced for me which makes this less enjoyable if he has no chance of taking me out.



  • B0R345 wrote: »
    Gair wrote: »
    Factors that should have been included.

    - Average arena rank
    - Numerical number of G12s
    - Quality of mods (15/20+ speeds)

    I'd add "ownership of Revan" to that list. I don't currently have anything that can take a strong Revan team down, so if someone puts him on defense, I'm boned.

    I think they took Revan and Traya into account. I'm 3.8 mil, my opponent is 3.8 mil. We both have traya. Neither of us have revan. We are both top 10 in arena. My matchup looks very fair.
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