Galactic Power Adjustment

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GP is used to match guilds in territory wars, match players in arena shards, and now matches players through the grand arena. But GP is a misnomer and should be adjusted.

I have been playing since its release. I found the game by accident because my son was just beginning to get into SW, and I was looking around the app store for SW content. I was hooked from the first battle. I remember the days when Jedi Knight Anakin and Ahsoka were the best toons to use in the arena.

Fast forward a couple years and I have a healthy 3.2m GP. Awesome, right? No, because more than half of my team is useless against the new toons. My G11 Jedi from 2 years ago get obliterated by everyone ranked 300 or higher in the arena and cannot get passed the 5th wave in TBs.

The point is that when matched, especially in the grand arena, my competition (of a similar GP) has a much deeper squad because that player's GP is comprised mostly of obsolete toons.

I am in no way complaining (because if I was, it would be a multi page rant regarding the lack of a Jedi Luke, Han/Chewy Millenium Falcon, and a Luke X-wing), just trying to get my point across. I love the game too much. I think GP should be weighted towards newer characters or a significant evolution of the original characters needs to occur.

Old hats, I'm wondering what you think. Newer players need to get off my **** digital lawn.

Replies

  • Waqui
    5165 posts Member
    rascaedus wrote: »
    Fast forward a couple years and I have a healthy 3.2m GP. Awesome, right? No, because more than half of my team is useless against the new toons. My G11 Jedi from 2 years ago get obliterated by everyone ranked 300 or higher in the arena and cannot get passed the 5th wave in TBs.

    If you didn't keep up and farm the new toons and new and stronger jedi, it was your own choice. Players, who kept up and kept farming may have developed a stronger roster (for GA at least). They have an advantage of course.

    On a side note:
    Bastilla is the only relatively new toon in the standard zBastilla (non-Revan) jedi team. All other jedi in that team have been in the game for more than a year.

  • ok, I think I did not explain well enough.

    I used the jedi as an example because I think about my squad in terms of teams. Like a team with strong synergy, think Phoenix, can hold up relatively well against stronger squads.

    A team of Traya, Sion, etc. at G9-G10 could destroy a team of G12 original toons. The newer ones are obviously stronger, have better synergy, and have new abilities.

    I am certainly not complaining about Traya or any new people. I just think GP needs to be weighted towards newer characters. I don't want to argue that it is unfair, because your point re: farming is somewhat correct. I did not farm the new people like I others but that comes down to me not realizing how powerful they were and focusing instead on what was currently trendy (i.e. Fives, Rex, Phasma, etc.).

    Hope I clarified what I meant.
  • solid points... I will definitely rethink my approach.

    I considered how hard it would be to rework toons, but I honestly have no idea what the backend issues would be.
  • Moldrak wrote: »
    Increasing GP on new characters is just penalizing new characters not all of which are particularly awesome. CG wants people to acquire (preferably with money) new characters so there is no way they will implement this.

    I would love to see them implement a method for decommissioning a character that is no longer used. For example you could break down gear back to salvage for a small loss. However I also do not see this happening since this is contradictory to their plan for the game.

    I think the better method for making GP more fair is to just increase the amount of GP you get from the g11 and g12 gear. A decent g12 can take out a whole squad of g8 characters despite the fact the the squad probably has double the GP. If each piece of g12 gear had its GP value increased 10x you would have a lot fewer imbalances in GA. This would benefit the people with very narrow characters focus by giving them more GP in TB but it will also help separate them from people who have a very broad character base which will make the GA matchups more balanced.

    I love the decommissioning idea. I'd love to decommision cup and jedi guardian fir shard shop currency.

    It would also be a good twist if after a player decommissioned a toon (relocks them and converts all shards to shard shop currency), they could be needed for something in the future. Like imagine you decommissioned jawas and then they were needed for a legendary. Just imagine the whinning.
  • Morti wrote: »
    kalidor wrote: »
    I'd like the option of benching some of my roster in the Preview phase. Anyone benched doesn't count when matching, but of course you're unable to use them in offense or defense for the duration. Benching a pilot means you can't use their ship either. It would help reduce the old chaff in the roster, and also give the Preview phase a reason to exist for 24h. As a 3 year player, I've got a reasonable amount of obsolete characters that I'd never use in a GA match.
    I also think that they need some sort of metascore when matching instead of just raw GP which takes into account leader zetas, trims down ship GP, and overall unit usability. But perhaps they already do something like that.

    Benching could lead to some seriously broken stuff.

    Let's say youre at 3,5m and have revan unlocked and all other stuff unlocked. Now you bench everything beside a few top teams and youre suddenly sub 1m. No normal 1m player will have any chance.

    As opposed to someone who has the gear but just never used it. in the current system ?
  • Gp doesn’t match players in arena shards but ahead with next points.
  • No_Try
    2592 posts Member
    I was thinking about launching a similar topic. Here's my latest scribblings self quotes:

    - I'm strictly against assessing the value of toons. A toon is a toon regardless of how much power creep has happened or if one is excelling and the other one is faulty by design. This is where the player choice steps in. I'm not faulting anyone for starting later to have better toons geared or having bought toons ahead of others. However their differences in this part should absolutely be crucial for their PvP modes success just as arena is from day 1.

    - Quickly looking through my roster an unmodded g7 85 tusken is worth 10.7k GP while my greatest GP toon Thrawn at g12.5, 6e mods, 2 zetas is worth 24k gp.

    - No wonder someone did their homework. I was wrong to think it was widespread steps. This is exactly an exponential function which can be extrapolated to higher levels etc.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Right out of the bat 3 things jump at me. Mods are undervalued. Star tiers are way overvalued. Gear is way way undervalued especially compared to resources it takes, there needs to be more granularity introduced for g12+ and gear tier exponential is low.

    Everything we talked about fluffs/leans/whateverests can be traced back to this.


    Let's seperate the discussion in two,
    one is whether the GP needs to factor in a toons value (in terms of what objective scale? a toons solitary value based on kit design, interactions, team make ups etc.

    two is how the current factors in GP calculation can be made better.
  • No_Try
    2592 posts Member
    Ah also if I'm not wrong ships are factored in twice due to their pilots in GP calculation. Even if not their contribution to GP is over the top given that i.e. I get to place 6 toon teams and only a single fleet in GA and that zone is less valued than the other zones (similar can be argued for TW)
  • Morti wrote: »
    kalidor wrote: »
    I'd like the option of benching some of my roster in the Preview phase. Anyone benched doesn't count when matching, but of course you're unable to use them in offense or defense for the duration. Benching a pilot means you can't use their ship either. It would help reduce the old chaff in the roster, and also give the Preview phase a reason to exist for 24h. As a 3 year player, I've got a reasonable amount of obsolete characters that I'd never use in a GA match.
    I also think that they need some sort of metascore when matching instead of just raw GP which takes into account leader zetas, trims down ship GP, and overall unit usability. But perhaps they already do something like that.

    Benching could lead to some seriously broken stuff.

    Let's say youre at 3,5m and have revan unlocked and all other stuff unlocked. Now you bench everything beside a few top teams and youre suddenly sub 1m. No normal 1m player will have any chance.

    As opposed to someone who has the gear but just never used it. in the current system ?

    Someone who really has only a few top teams and nothing else in the game will crush grand arena. They will also not have any top teams since they need Thrawn (phoenix geared starred and leveled), Gmy (jedi geared starred and leveled), won’t have Traya most likely since they will be useless in tb (no gp, no platoon material, no special missions teams) and hstr since they won’t have any hstr teams because jtr needs vets geared starred and leveled, Revan needs or starred geared and leveled...

    Maybe they don’t exist after all. Maybe there is a difference between keeping a roster lean and pick and choose the exact toons you want to include in matchmaking. Maybe pick and choose is one of the worst conceivable idea about ga matchmaking. Of course that’s just my opinion.
  • How to fix GA Matchmaking:

    Assign invisible modifiers to each character’s GP, then use that cumulative instead of GP as the main matchmaking metric.

    So, create an invisible secondary “weighted” GP used only for matchmaking.

    Example:

    A G12, 7* Ugnaught may have a GP of around 17000. (I don’t actually know, let’s just say it is)
    But Ugnaught doesn’t help you in GA whatsoever, therefore we assign this character a GP modifier of 0.1 or maybe even 0.0, because he is truly useless.

    Meanwhile, on the other end of the spectrum, characters that are incredibly difficult to beat, require massive investments, and generally make the difference between the good players and the bad players, would have much higher modifiers. Game changers like Jedi Knight Revan and Darth Traya may have modifiers of 4.0 or even higher.

    Fluff based inventories with lots of bad characters starred and leveled will have this taken into consideration with the weighted GP, and lifelong meta-chasers with every OP team that’s ever been will suddenly find themselves facing likeminded individuals in GA rather than taking a leisurely walk in the park over some dudes with 70 characters at Gear 8.

    So... What do we think?

    Posted this in the mega thread because I figured a topic of its own would just get merged. Thought this thread was headed in this direction and may like the idea.

  • JohnAran
    312 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Who will decide what multiplier to apply to each character ? Cg ? How will they do that ? Based on what ?
    You’ll need to recalculate every multiplier everytime a new toon comes out or is reworked since those multipliers are all related.
    How does it interact with other game modes ? Are good pve toons worth nothing ? How is TB going to go ?

    Meta chasers chase meta to beat easily those who don’t, and have a chance at beating those who also do, why do you want to take that advantage away from them ? How do you adjust rewards based on roster strenght ? If you are going to match stronger players against each other and weaker players against each other you need to make sure that weaker players get less rewards winning than stronger get loosing.
  • JohnAran wrote: »
    Who will decide what multiplier to apply to each character ? Cg ? How will they do that ? Based on what ?
    You’ll need to recalculate every multiplier everytime a new toon comes out or is reworked since those multipliers are all related.
    How does it interact with other game modes ? Are good pve toons worth nothing ? How is TB going to go ?

    Meta chasers chase meta to beat easily those who don’t, and have a chance at beating those who also do, why do you want to take that advantage away from them ? How do you adjust rewards based on roster strenght ? If you are going to match stronger players against each other and weaker players against each other you need to make sure that weaker players get less rewards winning than stronger get loosing.

    I think you think this is much more complicated than it really is... characters can largely be broken down intro groups of useless, useable, meta, and semi-meta. It’s not too difficult to tell which is which, especially for a company with as much data as CG has.

    It doesn’t interact with other game modes. Because it’s a PvP only modifier, PvE performance is irrelevant. You won’t need to recalculate EVERY modifier, that’s a gross overstatement. Usually teams beat one another in a Rock Paper Scissors manner. If one meta snuffs another out, it will probably only affect the useage of one or two teams.

    What do you mean how is TB going to go? It doesn’t replace Galactic Power. We don’t even get to see these numbers.

    And finally, you can gripe about “taking away competitive advantage”, but I’ve heard a lot more griping about an ultimately broken matchmaking system that pins monsters up against weaklings time and time again. I’ll happily take closer competition over what we have now, even if it means making the better players try a little harder...
  • JohnAran wrote: »
    Who will decide what multiplier to apply to each character ? Cg ? How will they do that ? Based on what ?
    You’ll need to recalculate every multiplier everytime a new toon comes out or is reworked since those multipliers are all related.
    How does it interact with other game modes ? Are good pve toons worth nothing ? How is TB going to go ?

    Meta chasers chase meta to beat easily those who don’t, and have a chance at beating those who also do, why do you want to take that advantage away from them ? How do you adjust rewards based on roster strenght ? If you are going to match stronger players against each other and weaker players against each other you need to make sure that weaker players get less rewards winning than stronger get loosing.

    I think you think this is much more complicated than it really is... characters can largely be broken down intro groups of useless, useable, meta, and semi-meta. It’s not too difficult to tell which is which, especially for a company with as much data as CG has.

    It doesn’t interact with other game modes. Because it’s a PvP only modifier, PvE performance is irrelevant. You won’t need to recalculate EVERY modifier, that’s a gross overstatement. Usually teams beat one another in a Rock Paper Scissors manner. If one meta snuffs another out, it will probably only affect the useage of one or two teams.

    What do you mean how is TB going to go? It doesn’t replace Galactic Power. We don’t even get to see these numbers.

    And finally, you can gripe about “taking away competitive advantage”, but I’ve heard a lot more griping about an ultimately broken matchmaking system that pins monsters up against weaklings time and time again. I’ll happily take closer competition over what we have now, even if it means making the better players try a little harder...

    Wait what do you mean by « it’s a pvp only modifier » ? You mean that people who farmed a lot of fluff to perform better in tb and have more tools in every pve event will get all the benefit for 0 cost while all the pvp focused players earned is the right to face tougher competition ?

    And i personally believe that you are making it way simpler that it actually is. Character’s strenght is actually very hard to evaluate individually in this game. zFinn g12 doesn’t have the same impact on your roster wether you have 0 other resistance toon or a full team. Palpatine’s rating would not have been the same in april than now. Some characters are not considered « meta » and yet quite effective. Try to pit together a tier list and post it on the forum, see how it goes. Yeah Traya and Revan are obvious A tier while Ugnaught is obvious D or F or V or whatever the number of tiers you want to use. Everything between that is heavily opinion-based.

    And finally, of course you only heard about « horrible matchups » (whether they are fair or not is up to debate), since people who had nothing complain about...didn’t complain. And again, then you have to give stronger players better rewards, which is not a straightforward thing to do either.
  • I think an interesting way to appease those that claim to have an inflated GP due to more G8-G10 characters than other players that were more focused would be this:

    Players place defense like normal. However, once a character is placed on defense, it is unavailable in future rounds of GA. Unavailable characters are reset once that player loses a GA round. So if you win the first and the second round of GA, you are probably digging a bit deeper into your roster than normal.

    A little bit of strategy would be required here as well- i.e. maybe you feel confident you can get by without placing your best defenses in round 1. That means if you were to win, you would have better teams to place on defense in round 2, but maybe you don't even make it to round 2 because you place bad teams :#

    This could be a fun way of leveling the playing field with all of the breadth vs. depth of rosters out there.

    Commence the hole poking!
  • I think an interesting way to appease those that claim to have an inflated GP due to more G8-G10 characters than other players that were more focused would be this:

    Players place defense like normal. However, once a character is placed on defense, it is unavailable in future rounds of GA. Unavailable characters are reset once that player loses a GA round. So if you win the first and the second round of GA, you are probably digging a bit deeper into your roster than normal.

    A little bit of strategy would be required here as well- i.e. maybe you feel confident you can get by without placing your best defenses in round 1. That means if you were to win, you would have better teams to place on defense in round 2, but maybe you don't even make it to round 2 because you place bad teams :#

    This could be a fun way of leveling the playing field with all of the breadth vs. depth of rosters out there.

    Commence the hole poking!
  • No_Try
    2592 posts Member
    This topic is supposed to be about how GP is calculated...

    I'll post how current GP calculations are made to bring it forth. Didn't include ships yet. Will post it if debating this garners interest.

    To reiterate;

    Right out of the bat 3 things jump at me. Mods are undervalued. Star tiers are way overvalued. Gear is way way undervalued especially compared to resources it takes, there needs to be more granularity introduced for g12+ and gear tier exponential is low.

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  • +1 to OP
  • I just checked back in on this, thinking I was the only person thinking about this topic.

    You guys gave a lot of great opinions and some excellent food for thought. Some of the ideas I hadn't even considered. So more sleepless nights thinking about SW are ahead of me.
  • No_Try
    2592 posts Member
    @Gannon It's better to go on from here as it will get lost on the other topic. The tables are on the topic for quick reference

    I added things up, assumed the no's for gear are for a slot.

    Stars 7514 GP
    Gears 5010 GP

    You can note down your stat bumps, but I bet this should be somewhere either on the forum or reddit.

    A quick look at the gear table shows tiers are not getting their due value in terms of...anything besides just getting multiplied by an arbitrary number.
  • No_Try
    2592 posts Member
    I finally managed to put my finger on the what's wrong with the current approach of GP calculation. Level, gear, stars are all either multiplicative or additive to the initial stats of a toon. But GP considers them as completely seperate entities and is only additive. In terms of stats levels and stars scale them together.

    It proved more difficult than I thought to come use stats and multipliers as the basis since level adds in a single value for a toon but is different for every toon. Stars modify most of the things as a multiplier but is also different for all toons.

    Gear is all over the place in what it modifies. At least it doesn't scale.

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  • TW matching is more complicated and has changed a couple of times and apparently does try and balance out meta toons. Still lots of complaints. I think they should maybe try and split player and ship GP for GA but otherwise don't bother.

    There are some practical problems with this as well and a simple example. Let us suppose the Universe consists of two guilds with 48 players each, both join TW and all members join GA.

    Possible TW match ups = 1.
    Possible GA match ups of 8 people in each = 132.6 billion.

    Add guilds and assume they all enter TW and GA the multiple difference gets insane.

    It HAS to be relatively quick and simple or hell would freeze over before matches were made. I am not sure but they may be trying to avoid repeat matches as well. They could have a hidden "adjusted" GP saved I guess and use that instead but on the fly trying to do that and match in anything approaching real time wouldn't work unless it is close to just sorted GP and adjust re-matches (again, if they even do that).
  • thomssi wrote: »
    TW matching is more complicated and has changed a couple of times and apparently does try and balance out meta toons. Still lots of complaints. I think they should maybe try and split player and ship GP for GA but otherwise don't bother.

    There are some practical problems with this as well and a simple example. Let us suppose the Universe consists of two guilds with 48 players each, both join TW and all members join GA.

    Possible TW match ups = 1.
    Possible GA match ups of 8 people in each = 132.6 billion.

    Add guilds and assume they all enter TW and GA the multiple difference gets insane.

    It HAS to be relatively quick and simple or hell would freeze over before matches were made. I am not sure but they may be trying to avoid repeat matches as well. They could have a hidden "adjusted" GP saved I guess and use that instead but on the fly trying to do that and match in anything approaching real time wouldn't work unless it is close to just sorted GP and adjust re-matches (again, if they even do that).

    Yeah that's why I think GP calculation should be adjusted and still be used as the matchmaking parameter. Adjusting how GP is calculated is mute on the difficulty of matchmaking as it will still the same.

  • Yeah would be, it would still need to be relatively simple and just single stored number for each person though, digging into skills, stars vs mods etc.... I was just trying to give an idea in the difference in complexity.
  • thomssi wrote: »
    Yeah would be, it would still need to be relatively simple and just single stored number for each person though, digging into skills, stars vs mods etc.... I was just trying to give an idea in the difference in complexity.

    Yeah single number ofc. I'm against weighting numerous factors in matchmaking. Fair doesn't mean equal as in the opponents have too similar rosters, just that factors that go into their GP is fairly assessed relative to eachother and within each's tiers.
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