Galactic Power Adjustment

Replies

  • No_Try wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    The problem with the current GA system is that CG wants us to be "collectors" because they make more money that way, but GA calculating GP to create opponents punishes collectors for having more characters unlocked, 7 star, geared up, etc., vs the person who has like 30 gear 12 characters. I know because I faced someone like that in my last GA. He had twice as many gear 12 characters as me, more zetas, but half his "roster" was level 1 characters that weren't even touched.

    I don't think CG wants you to collect all characters and gear them only to g7. They want you to go big and have a g12 7 star full roster. If you had that you'd be able to win ga.

    If you collect and hear everything to g7 and can't use it, that's on you.

    There is plenty of incentive to get several teams to g12 that this is not a surprise. For hstr, you need g12 teams to do well and most of those teams are also good in ga. The chewie event and 3PO events required higher gear both on teams that were good in ga. Tb combat has required higher geared teams to complete on the last tier for over a year now. Tw has req good teams (maxed out is better) for nearly a year.

    So the writing has been on the wall that to do well endgame, you need a pretty deep roster of g12 teams. If you ignored all that and collected and just geared everything to g7 that's on you.

    Not sure where I said anything about "gear 7". I only stated 7 star characters. And of course CG wants us to collect and max out every character. That still makes someone a collector. Lastly, just because you have a fully maxed roster doesn't mean you have any better of a chance to win GA. Why? Because you're facing other players with a fully maxed roster too. I still did 2-1 in each GA so I was able to win. I just had one opponent that I messed up my attacks with and the other I just couldn't get past a couple of his teams because they were too strong for me (in the 3v3 version). 4-2 is decent enough I'd say.

    Again, GA has nothing to do with "end game" because it is setup to accommodate all levels of player. Having Gear 12 characters or not is only an issue when you are a collector vs someone who is focused on only certain teams. TB is another incentive to increase your roster, especially toons you don't use because they will end up being needed in platoons. But, that's got nothing to do with the discussion here. (I've specifically 7*'d characters so that we can fill platoons in TB and that's all they are there for.)

    Being a super focused player on only certain teams gives you a better chance in GA because it is solely based on "GP". There should be other parameters that come into account for matchmaking, like zeta count, gear 12 count, and so on.

    I just don't get why, as you did in your response, there is such a quick response to always say, "That's your fault dude!" to a player who has a challenge, or can't accomplish something in this game. Yes, I play the way I play, I collect how I want to collect. I do my best to stay on target. But just because I bring up an issue and provide an alternate point of view doesn't mean there's a need to throw in the "well you aren't playing right, that's your fault!" stuff. Especially when you misread what I stated. :wink:

    I was simply stating that ga does not discourage you to gear characters. It may discourage gearing to a certain level characters that aren't used a lot but you still need to gear characters. So I don't believe it goes against the devs wanting you to gear characters.

    And unless you are an ultra kracken, you can't get g12 on every character. As much as the devs would love everyone to spend that much, it doesn't happen. I used that as an example of the goal post the devs want not an ideal ga roster. Since we are not at maxed out rosters, we all make choices about what to gear up.

    Some choose to be competitive and some choose to be collectors. I haven't said that either choice is wrong. One does lead to more ga wins though. But if ga wins isn't important to you then do your thing of course. But don't complain on the forums about the consequences of your choices.

    Because ultimately, the choices you make in building your roster determine your likelihood of winning ga far more than the matchmaking does.

    Where are those collectors? I've yet to see anyone who says "hey dude, I just like collecting, I don't care about being competetive". You seem to be inflating a fringe case to a norm and make an argument based on that. When you check my roster and see that I have most toons collected, do you think it's because I'm a collector?

    I've seen many argue that the reason they aren't competitive is because their play style is more collector than competitive. And yes you get the shards for a lot of characters by the time you've played for 2 or 3 years just through osmosis.

    I think the real difference comes down to whether you are willing to use regular or cantina energy to farm shards of characters that aren't terribly useful. Competitive players likely pass on that. Players that like to collect would likely still farm them. And of course these are the extremes on a bell curve and the vast majority of players fall somewhere in the middle.

    Cantina energy for example, I'm sure almost everyone is farming something out of there unless you have the shop farmed out. But someone who has a goal to unlock and 7 star every character may use crystals to refresh even if the character isn't all that useful. While a competitive minded player would likely either skip the farm although or at the very least only use the energy they can't save towards it and hoard the crystals for the next character that will make their roster more competitive.

    You can call it casual vs competitive if you want but it changes little. Those that build rosters for winning pvp game modes do better than those that don't.
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    No_Try wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    The problem with the current GA system is that CG wants us to be "collectors" because they make more money that way, but GA calculating GP to create opponents punishes collectors for having more characters unlocked, 7 star, geared up, etc., vs the person who has like 30 gear 12 characters. I know because I faced someone like that in my last GA. He had twice as many gear 12 characters as me, more zetas, but half his "roster" was level 1 characters that weren't even touched.

    I don't think CG wants you to collect all characters and gear them only to g7. They want you to go big and have a g12 7 star full roster. If you had that you'd be able to win ga.

    If you collect and hear everything to g7 and can't use it, that's on you.

    There is plenty of incentive to get several teams to g12 that this is not a surprise. For hstr, you need g12 teams to do well and most of those teams are also good in ga. The chewie event and 3PO events required higher gear both on teams that were good in ga. Tb combat has required higher geared teams to complete on the last tier for over a year now. Tw has req good teams (maxed out is better) for nearly a year.

    So the writing has been on the wall that to do well endgame, you need a pretty deep roster of g12 teams. If you ignored all that and collected and just geared everything to g7 that's on you.

    Not sure where I said anything about "gear 7". I only stated 7 star characters. And of course CG wants us to collect and max out every character. That still makes someone a collector. Lastly, just because you have a fully maxed roster doesn't mean you have any better of a chance to win GA. Why? Because you're facing other players with a fully maxed roster too. I still did 2-1 in each GA so I was able to win. I just had one opponent that I messed up my attacks with and the other I just couldn't get past a couple of his teams because they were too strong for me (in the 3v3 version). 4-2 is decent enough I'd say.

    Again, GA has nothing to do with "end game" because it is setup to accommodate all levels of player. Having Gear 12 characters or not is only an issue when you are a collector vs someone who is focused on only certain teams. TB is another incentive to increase your roster, especially toons you don't use because they will end up being needed in platoons. But, that's got nothing to do with the discussion here. (I've specifically 7*'d characters so that we can fill platoons in TB and that's all they are there for.)

    Being a super focused player on only certain teams gives you a better chance in GA because it is solely based on "GP". There should be other parameters that come into account for matchmaking, like zeta count, gear 12 count, and so on.

    I just don't get why, as you did in your response, there is such a quick response to always say, "That's your fault dude!" to a player who has a challenge, or can't accomplish something in this game. Yes, I play the way I play, I collect how I want to collect. I do my best to stay on target. But just because I bring up an issue and provide an alternate point of view doesn't mean there's a need to throw in the "well you aren't playing right, that's your fault!" stuff. Especially when you misread what I stated. :wink:

    I was simply stating that ga does not discourage you to gear characters. It may discourage gearing to a certain level characters that aren't used a lot but you still need to gear characters. So I don't believe it goes against the devs wanting you to gear characters.

    And unless you are an ultra kracken, you can't get g12 on every character. As much as the devs would love everyone to spend that much, it doesn't happen. I used that as an example of the goal post the devs want not an ideal ga roster. Since we are not at maxed out rosters, we all make choices about what to gear up.

    Some choose to be competitive and some choose to be collectors. I haven't said that either choice is wrong. One does lead to more ga wins though. But if ga wins isn't important to you then do your thing of course. But don't complain on the forums about the consequences of your choices.

    Because ultimately, the choices you make in building your roster determine your likelihood of winning ga far more than the matchmaking does.

    Where are those collectors? I've yet to see anyone who says "hey dude, I just like collecting, I don't care about being competetive". You seem to be inflating a fringe case to a norm and make an argument based on that. When you check my roster and see that I have most toons collected, do you think it's because I'm a collector?

    I've seen many argue that the reason they aren't competitive is because their play style is more collector than competitive. And yes you get the shards for a lot of characters by the time you've played for 2 or 3 years just through osmosis.

    I think the real difference comes down to whether you are willing to use regular or cantina energy to farm shards of characters that aren't terribly useful. Competitive players likely pass on that. Players that like to collect would likely still farm them. And of course these are the extremes on a bell curve and the vast majority of players fall somewhere in the middle.

    Cantina energy for example, I'm sure almost everyone is farming something out of there unless you have the shop farmed out. But someone who has a goal to unlock and 7 star every character may use crystals to refresh even if the character isn't all that useful. While a competitive minded player would likely either skip the farm although or at the very least only use the energy they can't save towards it and hoard the crystals for the next character that will make their roster more competitive.

    You can call it casual vs competitive if you want but it changes little. Those that build rosters for winning pvp game modes do better than those that don't.

    Ok, I understand what you are saying now. I'm certainly a competetive player and I also farm the hell out of every toon avaliable on maps. I think in a few months my farmability back catalogue will expire where I'll have to wait for new releases. Though in CGs recent mindset which is driven by panic farms for powerful toons I'm advantegous for doing it like this, not less competetive for certain. Only thing that **** on my competetiveness is the current matchmaking system.
  • Gannon
    1473 posts Member
    No_Try wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    The problem with the current GA system is that CG wants us to be "collectors" because they make more money that way, but GA calculating GP to create opponents punishes collectors for having more characters unlocked, 7 star, geared up, etc., vs the person who has like 30 gear 12 characters. I know because I faced someone like that in my last GA. He had twice as many gear 12 characters as me, more zetas, but half his "roster" was level 1 characters that weren't even touched.

    I don't think CG wants you to collect all characters and gear them only to g7. They want you to go big and have a g12 7 star full roster. If you had that you'd be able to win ga.

    If you collect and hear everything to g7 and can't use it, that's on you.

    There is plenty of incentive to get several teams to g12 that this is not a surprise. For hstr, you need g12 teams to do well and most of those teams are also good in ga. The chewie event and 3PO events required higher gear both on teams that were good in ga. Tb combat has required higher geared teams to complete on the last tier for over a year now. Tw has req good teams (maxed out is better) for nearly a year.

    So the writing has been on the wall that to do well endgame, you need a pretty deep roster of g12 teams. If you ignored all that and collected and just geared everything to g7 that's on you.

    Not sure where I said anything about "gear 7". I only stated 7 star characters. And of course CG wants us to collect and max out every character. That still makes someone a collector. Lastly, just because you have a fully maxed roster doesn't mean you have any better of a chance to win GA. Why? Because you're facing other players with a fully maxed roster too. I still did 2-1 in each GA so I was able to win. I just had one opponent that I messed up my attacks with and the other I just couldn't get past a couple of his teams because they were too strong for me (in the 3v3 version). 4-2 is decent enough I'd say.

    Again, GA has nothing to do with "end game" because it is setup to accommodate all levels of player. Having Gear 12 characters or not is only an issue when you are a collector vs someone who is focused on only certain teams. TB is another incentive to increase your roster, especially toons you don't use because they will end up being needed in platoons. But, that's got nothing to do with the discussion here. (I've specifically 7*'d characters so that we can fill platoons in TB and that's all they are there for.)

    Being a super focused player on only certain teams gives you a better chance in GA because it is solely based on "GP". There should be other parameters that come into account for matchmaking, like zeta count, gear 12 count, and so on.

    I just don't get why, as you did in your response, there is such a quick response to always say, "That's your fault dude!" to a player who has a challenge, or can't accomplish something in this game. Yes, I play the way I play, I collect how I want to collect. I do my best to stay on target. But just because I bring up an issue and provide an alternate point of view doesn't mean there's a need to throw in the "well you aren't playing right, that's your fault!" stuff. Especially when you misread what I stated. :wink:

    I was simply stating that ga does not discourage you to gear characters. It may discourage gearing to a certain level characters that aren't used a lot but you still need to gear characters. So I don't believe it goes against the devs wanting you to gear characters.

    And unless you are an ultra kracken, you can't get g12 on every character. As much as the devs would love everyone to spend that much, it doesn't happen. I used that as an example of the goal post the devs want not an ideal ga roster. Since we are not at maxed out rosters, we all make choices about what to gear up.

    Some choose to be competitive and some choose to be collectors. I haven't said that either choice is wrong. One does lead to more ga wins though. But if ga wins isn't important to you then do your thing of course. But don't complain on the forums about the consequences of your choices.

    Because ultimately, the choices you make in building your roster determine your likelihood of winning ga far more than the matchmaking does.

    Where are those collectors? I've yet to see anyone who says "hey dude, I just like collecting, I don't care about being competetive". You seem to be inflating a fringe case to a norm and make an argument based on that. When you check my roster and see that I have most toons collected, do you think it's because I'm a collector?

    I've seen many argue that the reason they aren't competitive is because their play style is more collector than competitive. And yes you get the shards for a lot of characters by the time you've played for 2 or 3 years just through osmosis.

    I think the real difference comes down to whether you are willing to use regular or cantina energy to farm shards of characters that aren't terribly useful. Competitive players likely pass on that. Players that like to collect would likely still farm them. And of course these are the extremes on a bell curve and the vast majority of players fall somewhere in the middle.

    Cantina energy for example, I'm sure almost everyone is farming something out of there unless you have the shop farmed out. But someone who has a goal to unlock and 7 star every character may use crystals to refresh even if the character isn't all that useful. While a competitive minded player would likely either skip the farm although or at the very least only use the energy they can't save towards it and hoard the crystals for the next character that will make their roster more competitive.

    You can call it casual vs competitive if you want but it changes little. Those that build rosters for winning pvp game modes do better than those that don't.

    Ok, I understand what you are saying now. I'm certainly a competetive player and I also farm the hell out of every toon avaliable on maps. I think in a few months my farmability back catalogue will expire where I'll have to wait for new releases. Though in CGs recent mindset which is driven by panic farms for powerful toons I'm advantegous for doing it like this, not less competetive for certain. Only thing that **** on my competetiveness is the current matchmaking system.

    I'm the same way, but I can say that for the first time since starting, I'm intentionally not adding new stars or gear to toons that aren't either TW/ GA viable, or requirements for events (ewoks). Everything else, although some can be useful, will just inflate my gp without adding much use, so it can wait.
    That's not really a good thing, is it?
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    The problem with the current GA system is that CG wants us to be "collectors" because they make more money that way, but GA calculating GP to create opponents punishes collectors for having more characters unlocked, 7 star, geared up, etc., vs the person who has like 30 gear 12 characters. I know because I faced someone like that in my last GA. He had twice as many gear 12 characters as me, more zetas, but half his "roster" was level 1 characters that weren't even touched.

    I don't think CG wants you to collect all characters and gear them only to g7. They want you to go big and have a g12 7 star full roster. If you had that you'd be able to win ga.

    If you collect and hear everything to g7 and can't use it, that's on you.

    There is plenty of incentive to get several teams to g12 that this is not a surprise. For hstr, you need g12 teams to do well and most of those teams are also good in ga. The chewie event and 3PO events required higher gear both on teams that were good in ga. Tb combat has required higher geared teams to complete on the last tier for over a year now. Tw has req good teams (maxed out is better) for nearly a year.

    So the writing has been on the wall that to do well endgame, you need a pretty deep roster of g12 teams. If you ignored all that and collected and just geared everything to g7 that's on you.

    Not sure where I said anything about "gear 7". I only stated 7 star characters. And of course CG wants us to collect and max out every character. That still makes someone a collector. Lastly, just because you have a fully maxed roster doesn't mean you have any better of a chance to win GA. Why? Because you're facing other players with a fully maxed roster too. I still did 2-1 in each GA so I was able to win. I just had one opponent that I messed up my attacks with and the other I just couldn't get past a couple of his teams because they were too strong for me (in the 3v3 version). 4-2 is decent enough I'd say.

    Again, GA has nothing to do with "end game" because it is setup to accommodate all levels of player. Having Gear 12 characters or not is only an issue when you are a collector vs someone who is focused on only certain teams. TB is another incentive to increase your roster, especially toons you don't use because they will end up being needed in platoons. But, that's got nothing to do with the discussion here. (I've specifically 7*'d characters so that we can fill platoons in TB and that's all they are there for.)

    Being a super focused player on only certain teams gives you a better chance in GA because it is solely based on "GP". There should be other parameters that come into account for matchmaking, like zeta count, gear 12 count, and so on.

    I just don't get why, as you did in your response, there is such a quick response to always say, "That's your fault dude!" to a player who has a challenge, or can't accomplish something in this game. Yes, I play the way I play, I collect how I want to collect. I do my best to stay on target. But just because I bring up an issue and provide an alternate point of view doesn't mean there's a need to throw in the "well you aren't playing right, that's your fault!" stuff. Especially when you misread what I stated. :wink:

    I was simply stating that ga does not discourage you to gear characters. It may discourage gearing to a certain level characters that aren't used a lot but you still need to gear characters. So I don't believe it goes against the devs wanting you to gear characters.

    And unless you are an ultra kracken, you can't get g12 on every character. As much as the devs would love everyone to spend that much, it doesn't happen. I used that as an example of the goal post the devs want not an ideal ga roster. Since we are not at maxed out rosters, we all make choices about what to gear up.

    Some choose to be competitive and some choose to be collectors. I haven't said that either choice is wrong. One does lead to more ga wins though. But if ga wins isn't important to you then do your thing of course. But don't complain on the forums about the consequences of your choices.

    Because ultimately, the choices you make in building your roster determine your likelihood of winning ga far more than the matchmaking does.

    Where are those collectors? I've yet to see anyone who says "hey dude, I just like collecting, I don't care about being competetive". You seem to be inflating a fringe case to a norm and make an argument based on that. When you check my roster and see that I have most toons collected, do you think it's because I'm a collector?

    I've seen many argue that the reason they aren't competitive is because their play style is more collector than competitive. And yes you get the shards for a lot of characters by the time you've played for 2 or 3 years just through osmosis.

    I think the real difference comes down to whether you are willing to use regular or cantina energy to farm shards of characters that aren't terribly useful. Competitive players likely pass on that. Players that like to collect would likely still farm them. And of course these are the extremes on a bell curve and the vast majority of players fall somewhere in the middle.

    Cantina energy for example, I'm sure almost everyone is farming something out of there unless you have the shop farmed out. But someone who has a goal to unlock and 7 star every character may use crystals to refresh even if the character isn't all that useful. While a competitive minded player would likely either skip the farm although or at the very least only use the energy they can't save towards it and hoard the crystals for the next character that will make their roster more competitive.

    You can call it casual vs competitive if you want but it changes little. Those that build rosters for winning pvp game modes do better than those that don't.

    Ok, I understand what you are saying now. I'm certainly a competetive player and I also farm the hell out of every toon avaliable on maps. I think in a few months my farmability back catalogue will expire where I'll have to wait for new releases. Though in CGs recent mindset which is driven by panic farms for powerful toons I'm advantegous for doing it like this, not less competetive for certain. Only thing that **** on my competetiveness is the current matchmaking system.

    I'm the same way, but I can say that for the first time since starting, I'm intentionally not adding new stars or gear to toons that aren't either TW/ GA viable, or requirements for events (ewoks). Everything else, although some can be useful, will just inflate my gp without adding much use, so it can wait.
    That's not really a good thing, is it?

    Gradually everything new I'm farming will start looking like these. I don't see how it can be good either for game design or community at large.

    gp7n811uljgn.png
    h53kki3sqrsb.png
  • Gannon
    1473 posts Member
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    The problem with the current GA system is that CG wants us to be "collectors" because they make more money that way, but GA calculating GP to create opponents punishes collectors for having more characters unlocked, 7 star, geared up, etc., vs the person who has like 30 gear 12 characters. I know because I faced someone like that in my last GA. He had twice as many gear 12 characters as me, more zetas, but half his "roster" was level 1 characters that weren't even touched.

    I don't think CG wants you to collect all characters and gear them only to g7. They want you to go big and have a g12 7 star full roster. If you had that you'd be able to win ga.

    If you collect and hear everything to g7 and can't use it, that's on you.

    There is plenty of incentive to get several teams to g12 that this is not a surprise. For hstr, you need g12 teams to do well and most of those teams are also good in ga. The chewie event and 3PO events required higher gear both on teams that were good in ga. Tb combat has required higher geared teams to complete on the last tier for over a year now. Tw has req good teams (maxed out is better) for nearly a year.

    So the writing has been on the wall that to do well endgame, you need a pretty deep roster of g12 teams. If you ignored all that and collected and just geared everything to g7 that's on you.

    Not sure where I said anything about "gear 7". I only stated 7 star characters. And of course CG wants us to collect and max out every character. That still makes someone a collector. Lastly, just because you have a fully maxed roster doesn't mean you have any better of a chance to win GA. Why? Because you're facing other players with a fully maxed roster too. I still did 2-1 in each GA so I was able to win. I just had one opponent that I messed up my attacks with and the other I just couldn't get past a couple of his teams because they were too strong for me (in the 3v3 version). 4-2 is decent enough I'd say.

    Again, GA has nothing to do with "end game" because it is setup to accommodate all levels of player. Having Gear 12 characters or not is only an issue when you are a collector vs someone who is focused on only certain teams. TB is another incentive to increase your roster, especially toons you don't use because they will end up being needed in platoons. But, that's got nothing to do with the discussion here. (I've specifically 7*'d characters so that we can fill platoons in TB and that's all they are there for.)

    Being a super focused player on only certain teams gives you a better chance in GA because it is solely based on "GP". There should be other parameters that come into account for matchmaking, like zeta count, gear 12 count, and so on.

    I just don't get why, as you did in your response, there is such a quick response to always say, "That's your fault dude!" to a player who has a challenge, or can't accomplish something in this game. Yes, I play the way I play, I collect how I want to collect. I do my best to stay on target. But just because I bring up an issue and provide an alternate point of view doesn't mean there's a need to throw in the "well you aren't playing right, that's your fault!" stuff. Especially when you misread what I stated. :wink:

    I was simply stating that ga does not discourage you to gear characters. It may discourage gearing to a certain level characters that aren't used a lot but you still need to gear characters. So I don't believe it goes against the devs wanting you to gear characters.

    And unless you are an ultra kracken, you can't get g12 on every character. As much as the devs would love everyone to spend that much, it doesn't happen. I used that as an example of the goal post the devs want not an ideal ga roster. Since we are not at maxed out rosters, we all make choices about what to gear up.

    Some choose to be competitive and some choose to be collectors. I haven't said that either choice is wrong. One does lead to more ga wins though. But if ga wins isn't important to you then do your thing of course. But don't complain on the forums about the consequences of your choices.

    Because ultimately, the choices you make in building your roster determine your likelihood of winning ga far more than the matchmaking does.

    Where are those collectors? I've yet to see anyone who says "hey dude, I just like collecting, I don't care about being competetive". You seem to be inflating a fringe case to a norm and make an argument based on that. When you check my roster and see that I have most toons collected, do you think it's because I'm a collector?

    I've seen many argue that the reason they aren't competitive is because their play style is more collector than competitive. And yes you get the shards for a lot of characters by the time you've played for 2 or 3 years just through osmosis.

    I think the real difference comes down to whether you are willing to use regular or cantina energy to farm shards of characters that aren't terribly useful. Competitive players likely pass on that. Players that like to collect would likely still farm them. And of course these are the extremes on a bell curve and the vast majority of players fall somewhere in the middle.

    Cantina energy for example, I'm sure almost everyone is farming something out of there unless you have the shop farmed out. But someone who has a goal to unlock and 7 star every character may use crystals to refresh even if the character isn't all that useful. While a competitive minded player would likely either skip the farm although or at the very least only use the energy they can't save towards it and hoard the crystals for the next character that will make their roster more competitive.

    You can call it casual vs competitive if you want but it changes little. Those that build rosters for winning pvp game modes do better than those that don't.

    Ok, I understand what you are saying now. I'm certainly a competetive player and I also farm the hell out of every toon avaliable on maps. I think in a few months my farmability back catalogue will expire where I'll have to wait for new releases. Though in CGs recent mindset which is driven by panic farms for powerful toons I'm advantegous for doing it like this, not less competetive for certain. Only thing that **** on my competetiveness is the current matchmaking system.

    I'm the same way, but I can say that for the first time since starting, I'm intentionally not adding new stars or gear to toons that aren't either TW/ GA viable, or requirements for events (ewoks). Everything else, although some can be useful, will just inflate my gp without adding much use, so it can wait.
    That's not really a good thing, is it?

    Gradually everything new I'm farming will start looking like these. I don't see how it can be good either for game design or community at large.

    gp7n811uljgn.png
    h53kki3sqrsb.png

    Lol yea I have a good bit of those now, and now everything new will be on hold also, except traya, who I immediately brought as far as g8 so far
    iyktk8uo7ouo.jpeg
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    The problem with the current GA system is that CG wants us to be "collectors" because they make more money that way, but GA calculating GP to create opponents punishes collectors for having more characters unlocked, 7 star, geared up, etc., vs the person who has like 30 gear 12 characters. I know because I faced someone like that in my last GA. He had twice as many gear 12 characters as me, more zetas, but half his "roster" was level 1 characters that weren't even touched.

    I don't think CG wants you to collect all characters and gear them only to g7. They want you to go big and have a g12 7 star full roster. If you had that you'd be able to win ga.

    If you collect and hear everything to g7 and can't use it, that's on you.

    There is plenty of incentive to get several teams to g12 that this is not a surprise. For hstr, you need g12 teams to do well and most of those teams are also good in ga. The chewie event and 3PO events required higher gear both on teams that were good in ga. Tb combat has required higher geared teams to complete on the last tier for over a year now. Tw has req good teams (maxed out is better) for nearly a year.

    So the writing has been on the wall that to do well endgame, you need a pretty deep roster of g12 teams. If you ignored all that and collected and just geared everything to g7 that's on you.

    Not sure where I said anything about "gear 7". I only stated 7 star characters. And of course CG wants us to collect and max out every character. That still makes someone a collector. Lastly, just because you have a fully maxed roster doesn't mean you have any better of a chance to win GA. Why? Because you're facing other players with a fully maxed roster too. I still did 2-1 in each GA so I was able to win. I just had one opponent that I messed up my attacks with and the other I just couldn't get past a couple of his teams because they were too strong for me (in the 3v3 version). 4-2 is decent enough I'd say.

    Again, GA has nothing to do with "end game" because it is setup to accommodate all levels of player. Having Gear 12 characters or not is only an issue when you are a collector vs someone who is focused on only certain teams. TB is another incentive to increase your roster, especially toons you don't use because they will end up being needed in platoons. But, that's got nothing to do with the discussion here. (I've specifically 7*'d characters so that we can fill platoons in TB and that's all they are there for.)

    Being a super focused player on only certain teams gives you a better chance in GA because it is solely based on "GP". There should be other parameters that come into account for matchmaking, like zeta count, gear 12 count, and so on.

    I just don't get why, as you did in your response, there is such a quick response to always say, "That's your fault dude!" to a player who has a challenge, or can't accomplish something in this game. Yes, I play the way I play, I collect how I want to collect. I do my best to stay on target. But just because I bring up an issue and provide an alternate point of view doesn't mean there's a need to throw in the "well you aren't playing right, that's your fault!" stuff. Especially when you misread what I stated. :wink:

    I was simply stating that ga does not discourage you to gear characters. It may discourage gearing to a certain level characters that aren't used a lot but you still need to gear characters. So I don't believe it goes against the devs wanting you to gear characters.

    And unless you are an ultra kracken, you can't get g12 on every character. As much as the devs would love everyone to spend that much, it doesn't happen. I used that as an example of the goal post the devs want not an ideal ga roster. Since we are not at maxed out rosters, we all make choices about what to gear up.

    Some choose to be competitive and some choose to be collectors. I haven't said that either choice is wrong. One does lead to more ga wins though. But if ga wins isn't important to you then do your thing of course. But don't complain on the forums about the consequences of your choices.

    Because ultimately, the choices you make in building your roster determine your likelihood of winning ga far more than the matchmaking does.

    Where are those collectors? I've yet to see anyone who says "hey dude, I just like collecting, I don't care about being competetive". You seem to be inflating a fringe case to a norm and make an argument based on that. When you check my roster and see that I have most toons collected, do you think it's because I'm a collector?

    I've seen many argue that the reason they aren't competitive is because their play style is more collector than competitive. And yes you get the shards for a lot of characters by the time you've played for 2 or 3 years just through osmosis.

    I think the real difference comes down to whether you are willing to use regular or cantina energy to farm shards of characters that aren't terribly useful. Competitive players likely pass on that. Players that like to collect would likely still farm them. And of course these are the extremes on a bell curve and the vast majority of players fall somewhere in the middle.

    Cantina energy for example, I'm sure almost everyone is farming something out of there unless you have the shop farmed out. But someone who has a goal to unlock and 7 star every character may use crystals to refresh even if the character isn't all that useful. While a competitive minded player would likely either skip the farm although or at the very least only use the energy they can't save towards it and hoard the crystals for the next character that will make their roster more competitive.

    You can call it casual vs competitive if you want but it changes little. Those that build rosters for winning pvp game modes do better than those that don't.

    Ok, I understand what you are saying now. I'm certainly a competetive player and I also farm the hell out of every toon avaliable on maps. I think in a few months my farmability back catalogue will expire where I'll have to wait for new releases. Though in CGs recent mindset which is driven by panic farms for powerful toons I'm advantegous for doing it like this, not less competetive for certain. Only thing that **** on my competetiveness is the current matchmaking system.

    I'm the same way, but I can say that for the first time since starting, I'm intentionally not adding new stars or gear to toons that aren't either TW/ GA viable, or requirements for events (ewoks). Everything else, although some can be useful, will just inflate my gp without adding much use, so it can wait.
    That's not really a good thing, is it?

    Gradually everything new I'm farming will start looking like these. I don't see how it can be good either for game design or community at large.

    gp7n811uljgn.png
    h53kki3sqrsb.png

    Lol yea I have a good bit of those now, and now everything new will be on hold also, except traya, who I immediately brought as far as g8 so far
    iyktk8uo7ouo.jpeg

    Cool. Sandbag ftw! If only I can go back in time and lock them.

    I also learned -promote- button doesn't instantly promote them, I can still go through it to direct me to farm nodes.
  • As I see it, you have 2 different issues that each need to be addressed separately for GP.
    1. GP does not accurately reflect unit development and general unit power.
    2. Meta impact is not considered when assigning value to a unit.

    Those are 2 very different problems. As long as people continue to try and solve both at the same time, they're going to keep chasing their tail and never make progress.

    I'm going to just completely skip #2 for now since it is infinitely harder to address. However, #1 is definitely solvable in my opinion. If you can come up with a solid #1, then you have a chance of providing something that at least kind of makes sense for #2 (however, I think there should be two completely different values for #1 and #2 to eliminate the confusion that arises from trying to jumble them together).

    Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes. Change that, and you have a solid solution close at hand. For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's broken. The only GP increase that comes from gear is from the individual gear items. If GP was calculated based on stats, then every addition to those stats would produce an impact on GP.

    Another example, you can have a gold 5 dot mod add

    15 speed (×5)
    .6% health (x1)
    .75% crit chance (x1)
    400 protection (x1)

    OR

    25 speed (x5)
    2% health (x1)
    2% crit chance (x1)
    1100 protection (x1)

    With current GP, both those mods add the exact same amount of GP, which is completely inaccurate. Change GP so it is based on attributes/stats, and you get a different GP bump for each mod that reflects the actual impact to the toon based on the stat bump.

    Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model.

    The only thing that falls outside of the stats (besides meta, which I've already addressed) is abilities. The flat value for abilities is not perfect, but I think it is serviceable. Fixing the stats issue would have a more noticeable impact.

    Essentially, CG needs to assign a GP value to each toon attribute. As those attributes increase, the GP increases, whether it is done by levels, gear, or mods.
  • Gannon
    1473 posts Member
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    As I see it, you have 2 different issues that each need to be addressed separately.
    1. GP does not accurately reflect player development and general unit power.
    2. Meta impact is not considered when assigning value to a unit.

    Those are 2 very different problems. As long as people continue to try and solve both at the same time, they're going to keep chasing their tail and never make progress.

    I'm going to just completely skip #2 for now since it is infinitely harder to address. However, #1 is definitely solvable in my opinion. If you can come up with a solid #1, then you have a chance of providing something that at least kind of makes sense for #2 (however, I think there should be two completely different values for #1 and #2 to eliminate the confusion that arises from trying to jumble them together).

    Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes. Change that, and you have a solid solution close at hand. For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's both stupid and broken. The only GP increase that comes from gear is from the individual gear items. If GP was calculated based on stats, then every addition to those stats would produce an impact on GP.

    Another example, you can have a gold 5 dot mod add

    15 speed (×5)
    .6% health (x1)
    .75% crit chance (x1)
    400 protection (x1)

    OR

    25 speed (x5)
    2% health (x1)
    2% crit chance (x1)
    1100 protection (x1)

    With current GP, both those mods add the exact same amount of GP, which is completely inaccurate. Change GP so it is based on attributes/stats, and you get a different GP bump for each mod that reflects the actual impact to the toon based on the stat bump.

    Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model.

    The only thing that falls outside of the stats (besides meta, which I've already addressed) is abilities. The flat value for abilities is not perfect, but I think it is serviceable. Fixing the stats issue would have a more noticeable impact.

    Essentially, CG needs to assign a GP value to each toon attribute. As those attributes increase, the GP increases, whether it is done by levels, gear, or mods.

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.
  • No_Try wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    The problem with the current GA system is that CG wants us to be "collectors" because they make more money that way, but GA calculating GP to create opponents punishes collectors for having more characters unlocked, 7 star, geared up, etc., vs the person who has like 30 gear 12 characters. I know because I faced someone like that in my last GA. He had twice as many gear 12 characters as me, more zetas, but half his "roster" was level 1 characters that weren't even touched.

    I don't think CG wants you to collect all characters and gear them only to g7. They want you to go big and have a g12 7 star full roster. If you had that you'd be able to win ga.

    If you collect and hear everything to g7 and can't use it, that's on you.

    There is plenty of incentive to get several teams to g12 that this is not a surprise. For hstr, you need g12 teams to do well and most of those teams are also good in ga. The chewie event and 3PO events required higher gear both on teams that were good in ga. Tb combat has required higher geared teams to complete on the last tier for over a year now. Tw has req good teams (maxed out is better) for nearly a year.

    So the writing has been on the wall that to do well endgame, you need a pretty deep roster of g12 teams. If you ignored all that and collected and just geared everything to g7 that's on you.

    Not sure where I said anything about "gear 7". I only stated 7 star characters. And of course CG wants us to collect and max out every character. That still makes someone a collector. Lastly, just because you have a fully maxed roster doesn't mean you have any better of a chance to win GA. Why? Because you're facing other players with a fully maxed roster too. I still did 2-1 in each GA so I was able to win. I just had one opponent that I messed up my attacks with and the other I just couldn't get past a couple of his teams because they were too strong for me (in the 3v3 version). 4-2 is decent enough I'd say.

    Again, GA has nothing to do with "end game" because it is setup to accommodate all levels of player. Having Gear 12 characters or not is only an issue when you are a collector vs someone who is focused on only certain teams. TB is another incentive to increase your roster, especially toons you don't use because they will end up being needed in platoons. But, that's got nothing to do with the discussion here. (I've specifically 7*'d characters so that we can fill platoons in TB and that's all they are there for.)

    Being a super focused player on only certain teams gives you a better chance in GA because it is solely based on "GP". There should be other parameters that come into account for matchmaking, like zeta count, gear 12 count, and so on.

    I just don't get why, as you did in your response, there is such a quick response to always say, "That's your fault dude!" to a player who has a challenge, or can't accomplish something in this game. Yes, I play the way I play, I collect how I want to collect. I do my best to stay on target. But just because I bring up an issue and provide an alternate point of view doesn't mean there's a need to throw in the "well you aren't playing right, that's your fault!" stuff. Especially when you misread what I stated. :wink:

    I was simply stating that ga does not discourage you to gear characters. It may discourage gearing to a certain level characters that aren't used a lot but you still need to gear characters. So I don't believe it goes against the devs wanting you to gear characters.

    And unless you are an ultra kracken, you can't get g12 on every character. As much as the devs would love everyone to spend that much, it doesn't happen. I used that as an example of the goal post the devs want not an ideal ga roster. Since we are not at maxed out rosters, we all make choices about what to gear up.

    Some choose to be competitive and some choose to be collectors. I haven't said that either choice is wrong. One does lead to more ga wins though. But if ga wins isn't important to you then do your thing of course. But don't complain on the forums about the consequences of your choices.

    Because ultimately, the choices you make in building your roster determine your likelihood of winning ga far more than the matchmaking does.

    Where are those collectors? I've yet to see anyone who says "hey dude, I just like collecting, I don't care about being competetive". You seem to be inflating a fringe case to a norm and make an argument based on that. When you check my roster and see that I have most toons collected, do you think it's because I'm a collector?

    I've seen many argue that the reason they aren't competitive is because their play style is more collector than competitive. And yes you get the shards for a lot of characters by the time you've played for 2 or 3 years just through osmosis.

    I think the real difference comes down to whether you are willing to use regular or cantina energy to farm shards of characters that aren't terribly useful. Competitive players likely pass on that. Players that like to collect would likely still farm them. And of course these are the extremes on a bell curve and the vast majority of players fall somewhere in the middle.

    Cantina energy for example, I'm sure almost everyone is farming something out of there unless you have the shop farmed out. But someone who has a goal to unlock and 7 star every character may use crystals to refresh even if the character isn't all that useful. While a competitive minded player would likely either skip the farm although or at the very least only use the energy they can't save towards it and hoard the crystals for the next character that will make their roster more competitive.

    You can call it casual vs competitive if you want but it changes little. Those that build rosters for winning pvp game modes do better than those that don't.

    Ok, I understand what you are saying now. I'm certainly a competetive player and I also farm the hell out of every toon avaliable on maps. I think in a few months my farmability back catalogue will expire where I'll have to wait for new releases. Though in CGs recent mindset which is driven by panic farms for powerful toons I'm advantegous for doing it like this, not less competetive for certain. Only thing that **** on my competetiveness is the current matchmaking system.

    Oh I definitely farm characters that may be req for future events. I have hoth han at 7 star g8 just because he may be needed for jedi luke at some point. But at the moment I have little in cantina to justify energy refreshes. I'm farming aura but probably won't use her for awhile so no need to refresh.

    Instead I have 19k saved in crystals just in case for when the new kotor toons drop and are needed a month later for darth revan.
  • Krashxxxx
    165 posts Member
    edited December 2018

    All valid points. However, you are not taking into consideration one very large factor. CG's established business model is to make the new toy better than the old toy to entice as many players to spend real money to obtain those new toys asap.
    This is not a criticism of CG, they do not hide the fact that they are in this to make money.
    The fact of the matter is, changes to thr GP process are not cost effective. They will cost a large number of man hours while generating 0 profits.
  • Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    The problem with the current GA system is that CG wants us to be "collectors" because they make more money that way, but GA calculating GP to create opponents punishes collectors for having more characters unlocked, 7 star, geared up, etc., vs the person who has like 30 gear 12 characters. I know because I faced someone like that in my last GA. He had twice as many gear 12 characters as me, more zetas, but half his "roster" was level 1 characters that weren't even touched.

    I don't think CG wants you to collect all characters and gear them only to g7. They want you to go big and have a g12 7 star full roster. If you had that you'd be able to win ga.

    If you collect and hear everything to g7 and can't use it, that's on you.

    There is plenty of incentive to get several teams to g12 that this is not a surprise. For hstr, you need g12 teams to do well and most of those teams are also good in ga. The chewie event and 3PO events required higher gear both on teams that were good in ga. Tb combat has required higher geared teams to complete on the last tier for over a year now. Tw has req good teams (maxed out is better) for nearly a year.

    So the writing has been on the wall that to do well endgame, you need a pretty deep roster of g12 teams. If you ignored all that and collected and just geared everything to g7 that's on you.

    Not sure where I said anything about "gear 7". I only stated 7 star characters. And of course CG wants us to collect and max out every character. That still makes someone a collector. Lastly, just because you have a fully maxed roster doesn't mean you have any better of a chance to win GA. Why? Because you're facing other players with a fully maxed roster too. I still did 2-1 in each GA so I was able to win. I just had one opponent that I messed up my attacks with and the other I just couldn't get past a couple of his teams because they were too strong for me (in the 3v3 version). 4-2 is decent enough I'd say.

    Again, GA has nothing to do with "end game" because it is setup to accommodate all levels of player. Having Gear 12 characters or not is only an issue when you are a collector vs someone who is focused on only certain teams. TB is another incentive to increase your roster, especially toons you don't use because they will end up being needed in platoons. But, that's got nothing to do with the discussion here. (I've specifically 7*'d characters so that we can fill platoons in TB and that's all they are there for.)

    Being a super focused player on only certain teams gives you a better chance in GA because it is solely based on "GP". There should be other parameters that come into account for matchmaking, like zeta count, gear 12 count, and so on.

    I just don't get why, as you did in your response, there is such a quick response to always say, "That's your fault dude!" to a player who has a challenge, or can't accomplish something in this game. Yes, I play the way I play, I collect how I want to collect. I do my best to stay on target. But just because I bring up an issue and provide an alternate point of view doesn't mean there's a need to throw in the "well you aren't playing right, that's your fault!" stuff. Especially when you misread what I stated. :wink:

    I was simply stating that ga does not discourage you to gear characters. It may discourage gearing to a certain level characters that aren't used a lot but you still need to gear characters. So I don't believe it goes against the devs wanting you to gear characters.

    And unless you are an ultra kracken, you can't get g12 on every character. As much as the devs would love everyone to spend that much, it doesn't happen. I used that as an example of the goal post the devs want not an ideal ga roster. Since we are not at maxed out rosters, we all make choices about what to gear up.

    Some choose to be competitive and some choose to be collectors. I haven't said that either choice is wrong. One does lead to more ga wins though. But if ga wins isn't important to you then do your thing of course. But don't complain on the forums about the consequences of your choices.

    Because ultimately, the choices you make in building your roster determine your likelihood of winning ga far more than the matchmaking does.

    Where are those collectors? I've yet to see anyone who says "hey dude, I just like collecting, I don't care about being competetive". You seem to be inflating a fringe case to a norm and make an argument based on that. When you check my roster and see that I have most toons collected, do you think it's because I'm a collector?

    I've seen many argue that the reason they aren't competitive is because their play style is more collector than competitive. And yes you get the shards for a lot of characters by the time you've played for 2 or 3 years just through osmosis.

    I think the real difference comes down to whether you are willing to use regular or cantina energy to farm shards of characters that aren't terribly useful. Competitive players likely pass on that. Players that like to collect would likely still farm them. And of course these are the extremes on a bell curve and the vast majority of players fall somewhere in the middle.

    Cantina energy for example, I'm sure almost everyone is farming something out of there unless you have the shop farmed out. But someone who has a goal to unlock and 7 star every character may use crystals to refresh even if the character isn't all that useful. While a competitive minded player would likely either skip the farm although or at the very least only use the energy they can't save towards it and hoard the crystals for the next character that will make their roster more competitive.

    You can call it casual vs competitive if you want but it changes little. Those that build rosters for winning pvp game modes do better than those that don't.

    Ok, I understand what you are saying now. I'm certainly a competetive player and I also farm the hell out of every toon avaliable on maps. I think in a few months my farmability back catalogue will expire where I'll have to wait for new releases. Though in CGs recent mindset which is driven by panic farms for powerful toons I'm advantegous for doing it like this, not less competetive for certain. Only thing that **** on my competetiveness is the current matchmaking system.

    I'm the same way, but I can say that for the first time since starting, I'm intentionally not adding new stars or gear to toons that aren't either TW/ GA viable, or requirements for events (ewoks). Everything else, although some can be useful, will just inflate my gp without adding much use, so it can wait.
    That's not really a good thing, is it?

    I still add stars in case I need them to fill platoons in tb and so I can get the shard shop currency for excess. It doesn't add that much gp. But I don't gear characters unless I have a use for them. But I started doing that before ga came. Mostly because I would later need a low level gear piece that I used on a useless toon.
  • GodlikeNay wrote: »
    As I see it, you have 2 different issues that each need to be addressed separately for GP.
    1. GP does not accurately reflect unit development and general unit power.
    2. Meta impact is not considered when assigning value to a unit.

    Those are 2 very different problems. As long as people continue to try and solve both at the same time, they're going to keep chasing their tail and never make progress.

    I'm going to just completely skip #2 for now since it is infinitely harder to address. However, #1 is definitely solvable in my opinion. If you can come up with a solid #1, then you have a chance of providing something that at least kind of makes sense for #2 (however, I think there should be two completely different values for #1 and #2 to eliminate the confusion that arises from trying to jumble them together).

    Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes. Change that, and you have a solid solution close at hand. For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's broken. The only GP increase that comes from gear is from the individual gear items. If GP was calculated based on stats, then every addition to those stats would produce an impact on GP.

    Another example, you can have a gold 5 dot mod add

    15 speed (×5)
    .6% health (x1)
    .75% crit chance (x1)
    400 protection (x1)

    OR

    25 speed (x5)
    2% health (x1)
    2% crit chance (x1)
    1100 protection (x1)

    With current GP, both those mods add the exact same amount of GP, which is completely inaccurate. Change GP so it is based on attributes/stats, and you get a different GP bump for each mod that reflects the actual impact to the toon based on the stat bump.

    Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model.

    The only thing that falls outside of the stats (besides meta, which I've already addressed) is abilities. The flat value for abilities is not perfect, but I think it is serviceable. Fixing the stats issue would have a more noticeable impact.

    Essentially, CG needs to assign a GP value to each toon attribute. As those attributes increase, the GP increases, whether it is done by levels, gear, or mods.

    I think Gannon pretty well covered a counter but also it seems your goal is to have perfect matchups. I don't believe this is desirable. One of the reasons to improve your roster is to do better in ga. But if they had matchmaking that matched you to a roster that was equally as competitive as yours, then there'd be no advantage to building a more competitive roster. And if you correct for new meta toons, there'd be no incentive to buy the new meta toons.

    Pretty sure it isn't a perfect match by design.
  • GodlikeNay
    63 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.
  • Krashxxxx wrote: »
    All valid points. However, you are not taking into consideration one very large factor. CG's established business model is to make the new toy better than the old toy to entice as many players to spend real money to obtain those new toys asap.
    This is not a criticism of CG, they do not hide the fact that they are in this to make money.
    The fact of the matter is, changes to thr GP process are not cost effective. They will cost a large number of man hours while generating 0 profits.

    I hear your point, but CG does spend time trying to make the game better. Fixing GP would be huge because of how many areas it can potentially touch. In the end, it would be better for us and them. Changes like that are well worth the development time and successful companies do it all the time. The problems I pointed out above are glaring issues with GP that anyone could recognize if they think about it. CG can't be willing to accept such glaring issues. Even if they don't go with my suggestion, it's in their best interest to fix glaring issues with something as core as GP.
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    As I see it, you have 2 different issues that each need to be addressed separately for GP.
    1. GP does not accurately reflect unit development and general unit power.
    2. Meta impact is not considered when assigning value to a unit.

    Those are 2 very different problems. As long as people continue to try and solve both at the same time, they're going to keep chasing their tail and never make progress.

    I'm going to just completely skip #2 for now since it is infinitely harder to address. However, #1 is definitely solvable in my opinion. If you can come up with a solid #1, then you have a chance of providing something that at least kind of makes sense for #2 (however, I think there should be two completely different values for #1 and #2 to eliminate the confusion that arises from trying to jumble them together).

    Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes. Change that, and you have a solid solution close at hand. For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's broken. The only GP increase that comes from gear is from the individual gear items. If GP was calculated based on stats, then every addition to those stats would produce an impact on GP.

    Another example, you can have a gold 5 dot mod add

    15 speed (×5)
    .6% health (x1)
    .75% crit chance (x1)
    400 protection (x1)

    OR

    25 speed (x5)
    2% health (x1)
    2% crit chance (x1)
    1100 protection (x1)

    With current GP, both those mods add the exact same amount of GP, which is completely inaccurate. Change GP so it is based on attributes/stats, and you get a different GP bump for each mod that reflects the actual impact to the toon based on the stat bump.

    Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model.

    The only thing that falls outside of the stats (besides meta, which I've already addressed) is abilities. The flat value for abilities is not perfect, but I think it is serviceable. Fixing the stats issue would have a more noticeable impact.

    Essentially, CG needs to assign a GP value to each toon attribute. As those attributes increase, the GP increases, whether it is done by levels, gear, or mods.

    I don't see (2) as a problem the GP system should be impartial to toon kit specifics imo and it's the players that should make educated moves.

    I am not sure I want to see mod stat bumps factored into their GP. But I'm not against that either. Though how will you score these various factors that a mod can bump, will speed be 5x value of say health or what?

    I agree about all else. But the topic has proven it's not simple to assess level/gear/star's stat impacts. If you have it figured out, by all means help us come with good metrics. i.e. how do you measure star GP bumps vs. gear ones.
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    No_Try wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    The problem with the current GA system is that CG wants us to be "collectors" because they make more money that way, but GA calculating GP to create opponents punishes collectors for having more characters unlocked, 7 star, geared up, etc., vs the person who has like 30 gear 12 characters. I know because I faced someone like that in my last GA. He had twice as many gear 12 characters as me, more zetas, but half his "roster" was level 1 characters that weren't even touched.

    I don't think CG wants you to collect all characters and gear them only to g7. They want you to go big and have a g12 7 star full roster. If you had that you'd be able to win ga.

    If you collect and hear everything to g7 and can't use it, that's on you.

    There is plenty of incentive to get several teams to g12 that this is not a surprise. For hstr, you need g12 teams to do well and most of those teams are also good in ga. The chewie event and 3PO events required higher gear both on teams that were good in ga. Tb combat has required higher geared teams to complete on the last tier for over a year now. Tw has req good teams (maxed out is better) for nearly a year.

    So the writing has been on the wall that to do well endgame, you need a pretty deep roster of g12 teams. If you ignored all that and collected and just geared everything to g7 that's on you.

    Not sure where I said anything about "gear 7". I only stated 7 star characters. And of course CG wants us to collect and max out every character. That still makes someone a collector. Lastly, just because you have a fully maxed roster doesn't mean you have any better of a chance to win GA. Why? Because you're facing other players with a fully maxed roster too. I still did 2-1 in each GA so I was able to win. I just had one opponent that I messed up my attacks with and the other I just couldn't get past a couple of his teams because they were too strong for me (in the 3v3 version). 4-2 is decent enough I'd say.

    Again, GA has nothing to do with "end game" because it is setup to accommodate all levels of player. Having Gear 12 characters or not is only an issue when you are a collector vs someone who is focused on only certain teams. TB is another incentive to increase your roster, especially toons you don't use because they will end up being needed in platoons. But, that's got nothing to do with the discussion here. (I've specifically 7*'d characters so that we can fill platoons in TB and that's all they are there for.)

    Being a super focused player on only certain teams gives you a better chance in GA because it is solely based on "GP". There should be other parameters that come into account for matchmaking, like zeta count, gear 12 count, and so on.

    I just don't get why, as you did in your response, there is such a quick response to always say, "That's your fault dude!" to a player who has a challenge, or can't accomplish something in this game. Yes, I play the way I play, I collect how I want to collect. I do my best to stay on target. But just because I bring up an issue and provide an alternate point of view doesn't mean there's a need to throw in the "well you aren't playing right, that's your fault!" stuff. Especially when you misread what I stated. :wink:

    I was simply stating that ga does not discourage you to gear characters. It may discourage gearing to a certain level characters that aren't used a lot but you still need to gear characters. So I don't believe it goes against the devs wanting you to gear characters.

    And unless you are an ultra kracken, you can't get g12 on every character. As much as the devs would love everyone to spend that much, it doesn't happen. I used that as an example of the goal post the devs want not an ideal ga roster. Since we are not at maxed out rosters, we all make choices about what to gear up.

    Some choose to be competitive and some choose to be collectors. I haven't said that either choice is wrong. One does lead to more ga wins though. But if ga wins isn't important to you then do your thing of course. But don't complain on the forums about the consequences of your choices.

    Because ultimately, the choices you make in building your roster determine your likelihood of winning ga far more than the matchmaking does.

    Where are those collectors? I've yet to see anyone who says "hey dude, I just like collecting, I don't care about being competetive". You seem to be inflating a fringe case to a norm and make an argument based on that. When you check my roster and see that I have most toons collected, do you think it's because I'm a collector?

    I've seen many argue that the reason they aren't competitive is because their play style is more collector than competitive. And yes you get the shards for a lot of characters by the time you've played for 2 or 3 years just through osmosis.

    I think the real difference comes down to whether you are willing to use regular or cantina energy to farm shards of characters that aren't terribly useful. Competitive players likely pass on that. Players that like to collect would likely still farm them. And of course these are the extremes on a bell curve and the vast majority of players fall somewhere in the middle.

    Cantina energy for example, I'm sure almost everyone is farming something out of there unless you have the shop farmed out. But someone who has a goal to unlock and 7 star every character may use crystals to refresh even if the character isn't all that useful. While a competitive minded player would likely either skip the farm although or at the very least only use the energy they can't save towards it and hoard the crystals for the next character that will make their roster more competitive.

    You can call it casual vs competitive if you want but it changes little. Those that build rosters for winning pvp game modes do better than those that don't.

    Ok, I understand what you are saying now. I'm certainly a competetive player and I also farm the hell out of every toon avaliable on maps. I think in a few months my farmability back catalogue will expire where I'll have to wait for new releases. Though in CGs recent mindset which is driven by panic farms for powerful toons I'm advantegous for doing it like this, not less competetive for certain. Only thing that **** on my competetiveness is the current matchmaking system.

    Oh I definitely farm characters that may be req for future events. I have hoth han at 7 star g8 just because he may be needed for jedi luke at some point. But at the moment I have little in cantina to justify energy refreshes. I'm farming aura but probably won't use her for awhile so no need to refresh.

    Instead I have 19k saved in crystals just in case for when the new kotor toons drop and are needed a month later for darth revan.

    New OR toons are already out there, you should start buying shop shards imho. We know simply cantina or other map farming won't get you to a full 7* requirement team by the previous example.

    This is something I don't do. I don't wanna go on a limp to get one toon the first time in exchange of slowing down my current growth path. And I enjoy the game less when I hoard. It's a 4 months advantage at most, each time you do this needs seperate investment (of crystal hoarding). After all it's a choice.

    Revan didn't stop me from getting top in my arena. I hope CG won't design a toon that's truely unbeatable by any of the other metas on the release date.
  • Gannon
    1473 posts Member
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.

    I did. I'll give examples:
    "Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes."
    It does, or at least gp is increased at the same rate, so it reflects it fairly well.

    "For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's broken."
    It is, and you even mention that in your next sentence. Clicking the 'upgrade' button simply unlocks the next gear tier, it ads no extra gp or stats, as well it shouldn't. The gp increases for each piece you add, by a number that seems to be tied to which tier it falls into. Every piece of gear adds gp.

    "Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model."
    yes, adding a new star level adds to stats like health, etc. It increases at the same time as gp, so what's to say it's not tied together? The value of the stat increase is different for each toon, but always the same total value. It's just split across the three stat modifiers: strength, agility, & tactics..

    "The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken."
    Mod gp is based on dot count (higher dots have more drastic increases), level (increases admit of boosts), and tier (the amount of boosts total). A five dot gold mod will always be more gp than a five dot blue, as there's more upgrades. Can't base it on speed, sometimes other factors are more important.

    "You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats."
    There's no way to tell if gp is based on stats, as both increase at fairly equal levels. Due to this similar increase, it doesn't matter, chicken or egg.

    "None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. "
    Stars increase gp and stats faster and more broadly with stars than gear.. A 5* g11 will have much lower stats than most g11s you'll face, as they'll likely have higher stars. So it'll likely get killed in one or two shots.

    So yes, I read it carefully. Wanted to clarify.
  • No_Try wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    The problem with the current GA system is that CG wants us to be "collectors" because they make more money that way, but GA calculating GP to create opponents punishes collectors for having more characters unlocked, 7 star, geared up, etc., vs the person who has like 30 gear 12 characters. I know because I faced someone like that in my last GA. He had twice as many gear 12 characters as me, more zetas, but half his "roster" was level 1 characters that weren't even touched.

    I don't think CG wants you to collect all characters and gear them only to g7. They want you to go big and have a g12 7 star full roster. If you had that you'd be able to win ga.

    If you collect and hear everything to g7 and can't use it, that's on you.

    There is plenty of incentive to get several teams to g12 that this is not a surprise. For hstr, you need g12 teams to do well and most of those teams are also good in ga. The chewie event and 3PO events required higher gear both on teams that were good in ga. Tb combat has required higher geared teams to complete on the last tier for over a year now. Tw has req good teams (maxed out is better) for nearly a year.

    So the writing has been on the wall that to do well endgame, you need a pretty deep roster of g12 teams. If you ignored all that and collected and just geared everything to g7 that's on you.

    Not sure where I said anything about "gear 7". I only stated 7 star characters. And of course CG wants us to collect and max out every character. That still makes someone a collector. Lastly, just because you have a fully maxed roster doesn't mean you have any better of a chance to win GA. Why? Because you're facing other players with a fully maxed roster too. I still did 2-1 in each GA so I was able to win. I just had one opponent that I messed up my attacks with and the other I just couldn't get past a couple of his teams because they were too strong for me (in the 3v3 version). 4-2 is decent enough I'd say.

    Again, GA has nothing to do with "end game" because it is setup to accommodate all levels of player. Having Gear 12 characters or not is only an issue when you are a collector vs someone who is focused on only certain teams. TB is another incentive to increase your roster, especially toons you don't use because they will end up being needed in platoons. But, that's got nothing to do with the discussion here. (I've specifically 7*'d characters so that we can fill platoons in TB and that's all they are there for.)

    Being a super focused player on only certain teams gives you a better chance in GA because it is solely based on "GP". There should be other parameters that come into account for matchmaking, like zeta count, gear 12 count, and so on.

    I just don't get why, as you did in your response, there is such a quick response to always say, "That's your fault dude!" to a player who has a challenge, or can't accomplish something in this game. Yes, I play the way I play, I collect how I want to collect. I do my best to stay on target. But just because I bring up an issue and provide an alternate point of view doesn't mean there's a need to throw in the "well you aren't playing right, that's your fault!" stuff. Especially when you misread what I stated. :wink:

    I was simply stating that ga does not discourage you to gear characters. It may discourage gearing to a certain level characters that aren't used a lot but you still need to gear characters. So I don't believe it goes against the devs wanting you to gear characters.

    And unless you are an ultra kracken, you can't get g12 on every character. As much as the devs would love everyone to spend that much, it doesn't happen. I used that as an example of the goal post the devs want not an ideal ga roster. Since we are not at maxed out rosters, we all make choices about what to gear up.

    Some choose to be competitive and some choose to be collectors. I haven't said that either choice is wrong. One does lead to more ga wins though. But if ga wins isn't important to you then do your thing of course. But don't complain on the forums about the consequences of your choices.

    Because ultimately, the choices you make in building your roster determine your likelihood of winning ga far more than the matchmaking does.

    Where are those collectors? I've yet to see anyone who says "hey dude, I just like collecting, I don't care about being competetive". You seem to be inflating a fringe case to a norm and make an argument based on that. When you check my roster and see that I have most toons collected, do you think it's because I'm a collector?

    I've seen many argue that the reason they aren't competitive is because their play style is more collector than competitive. And yes you get the shards for a lot of characters by the time you've played for 2 or 3 years just through osmosis.

    I think the real difference comes down to whether you are willing to use regular or cantina energy to farm shards of characters that aren't terribly useful. Competitive players likely pass on that. Players that like to collect would likely still farm them. And of course these are the extremes on a bell curve and the vast majority of players fall somewhere in the middle.

    Cantina energy for example, I'm sure almost everyone is farming something out of there unless you have the shop farmed out. But someone who has a goal to unlock and 7 star every character may use crystals to refresh even if the character isn't all that useful. While a competitive minded player would likely either skip the farm although or at the very least only use the energy they can't save towards it and hoard the crystals for the next character that will make their roster more competitive.

    You can call it casual vs competitive if you want but it changes little. Those that build rosters for winning pvp game modes do better than those that don't.

    Ok, I understand what you are saying now. I'm certainly a competetive player and I also farm the hell out of every toon avaliable on maps. I think in a few months my farmability back catalogue will expire where I'll have to wait for new releases. Though in CGs recent mindset which is driven by panic farms for powerful toons I'm advantegous for doing it like this, not less competetive for certain. Only thing that **** on my competetiveness is the current matchmaking system.

    Oh I definitely farm characters that may be req for future events. I have hoth han at 7 star g8 just because he may be needed for jedi luke at some point. But at the moment I have little in cantina to justify energy refreshes. I'm farming aura but probably won't use her for awhile so no need to refresh.

    Instead I have 19k saved in crystals just in case for when the new kotor toons drop and are needed a month later for darth revan.

    New OR toons are already out there, you should start buying shop shards imho. We know simply cantina or other map farming won't get you to a full 7* requirement team by the previous example.

    This is something I don't do. I don't wanna go on a limp to get one toon the first time in exchange of slowing down my current growth path. And I enjoy the game less when I hoard. It's a 4 months advantage at most, each time you do this needs seperate investment (of crystal hoarding). After all it's a choice.

    Revan didn't stop me from getting top in my arena. I hope CG won't design a toon that's truely unbeatable by any of the other metas on the release date.

    You are probably right about having to use the stores. However, the newest ones aren't even in the stores yet and the 1299 crystal pack is a horrible deal. The ones in the stores now will probably not be the true bottleneck. Bastilla and jolee were able to be 7 starred without stores. It was the mission and t3 that would hold you up.

    Also if they do a faction pack for crystals like last time having one starred up doesn't help that much. And the faction pack is actually cheaper than the stores. So is node farming with 6 cantina and regular energy refreshes a day. So my plan is to start farming with 6 refreshes a day to see how close I get when they become farmable. And then supplement with the store as needed. Or with faction packs for crystals if i need all characters equally.
  • Liath
    4942 posts Member
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.

    This is what the original character power tried to do and it was terrible. It way overweighted health and didn't accurately account for other stats that people cared about a lot more. The problem with this type of thing is that it's subjective, it's character dependent (some characters benefit a lot more from certain stats than others do), and it's variable as the game progresses (things become more or less important due to new abilities and synergies and whatnot). So even if they came up with a good system right now it probably wouldn't remain a good system very long and it would require immense amounts of work to maintain.
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    GodlikeNay wrote: »

    In regards to evaluating star/level bumps vs gear bumps, that's easy. You have to change your way of thinking to looking at the stats. Both those bumps produce stat changes. If there is GP value assigned to the individual stats, each bump impacts the GP based on the stats that are increased. It's very straight forward, accurate, and consistent.

    Then we have to weigh between relative impact of each stat. Give an example of what you think as fair using stars/gear.

  • Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.

    I did. I'll give examples:
    "Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes."
    It does, or at least gp is increased at the same rate, so it reflects it fairly well.

    "For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's broken."
    It is, and you even mention that in your next sentence. Clicking the 'upgrade' button simply unlocks the next gear tier, it ads no extra gp or stats, as well it shouldn't. The gp increases for each piece you add, by a number that seems to be tied to which tier it falls into. Every piece of gear adds gp.

    "Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model."
    yes, adding a new star level adds to stats like health, etc. It increases at the same time as gp, so what's to say it's not tied together? The value of the stat increase is different for each toon, but always the same total value. It's just split across the three stat modifiers: strength, agility, & tactics..

    "The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken."
    Mod gp is based on dot count (higher dots have more drastic increases), level (increases admit of boosts), and tier (the amount of boosts total). A five dot gold mod will always be more gp than a five dot blue, as there's more upgrades. Can't base it on speed, sometimes other factors are more important.

    "You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats."
    There's no way to tell if gp is based on stats, as both increase at fairly equal levels. Due to this similar increase, it doesn't matter, chicken or egg.

    "None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. "
    Stars increase gp and stats faster and more broadly with stars than gear.. A 5* g11 will have much lower stats than most g11s you'll face, as they'll likely have higher stars. So it'll likely get killed in one or two shots.

    So yes, I read it carefully. Wanted to clarify.

    I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Gear bumps produce stats all by themselves. When I add my last gear item for G6 before going to G7, I get a bump for whatever item I just added. My GP reflects that. However, before I hit the "Update" button to take me to G7, I have no protection. Once I hit the Update button, in addition to the numerous other stat bumps, I also get protection for the first time. I get 0 GP from that massive stat bump or from any of the other gear bumps (which are even larger).

    You are also wrong about the mods in the sense that GP accurately reflects their impact. I thought this went without saying, but let's take the example I provided and extrapolate that out to 6 mods. We both agree that the 2 mod examples I provided give the exact same GP value since they are both 5 dot gold mods. For the sake of the discussion, let's say that a toon has 6 of each value to fill all their mod slots. What you have with the first toon is a bump of:
    90 Speed
    3.6% Health
    4.5% Crit Chance
    2400 Protection

    What you have with the second set of mods (which currently give the EXACT SAME amount of GP) is:

    150 Speed
    12% Health
    12% Crit Chance
    6600 Protection

    That is a difference of:
    60 Speed
    8.4% Health
    7.5% Crit Chance
    4200 Protection

    That is a HUGE discrepancy in stats and could ENTIRELY determine the difference between winning and losing a battle between two otherwise similar units (yes, that's a difference for just one unit, not even a whole squad). GP currently does not account for that AT ALL and you're going to tell me it does a good job of reflecting the stats. Come on!
  • Liath wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.

    This is what the original character power tried to do and it was terrible. It way overweighted health and didn't accurately account for other stats that people cared about a lot more. The problem with this type of thing is that it's subjective, it's character dependent (some characters benefit a lot more from certain stats than others do), and it's variable as the game progresses (things become more or less important due to new abilities and synergies and whatnot). So even if they came up with a good system right now it probably wouldn't remain a good system very long and it would require immense amounts of work to maintain.

    Exactly. And then there would still be people that think the new system weighs something too much or too little so changing gp wouldn't fix the " my match up is unfair" complaints. It would simply shift them to a new group.

    I'd rather they spend the time and effort on new content.

  • GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.

    I did. I'll give examples:
    "Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes."
    It does, or at least gp is increased at the same rate, so it reflects it fairly well.

    "For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's broken."
    It is, and you even mention that in your next sentence. Clicking the 'upgrade' button simply unlocks the next gear tier, it ads no extra gp or stats, as well it shouldn't. The gp increases for each piece you add, by a number that seems to be tied to which tier it falls into. Every piece of gear adds gp.

    "Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model."
    yes, adding a new star level adds to stats like health, etc. It increases at the same time as gp, so what's to say it's not tied together? The value of the stat increase is different for each toon, but always the same total value. It's just split across the three stat modifiers: strength, agility, & tactics..

    "The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken."
    Mod gp is based on dot count (higher dots have more drastic increases), level (increases admit of boosts), and tier (the amount of boosts total). A five dot gold mod will always be more gp than a five dot blue, as there's more upgrades. Can't base it on speed, sometimes other factors are more important.

    "You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats."
    There's no way to tell if gp is based on stats, as both increase at fairly equal levels. Due to this similar increase, it doesn't matter, chicken or egg.

    "None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. "
    Stars increase gp and stats faster and more broadly with stars than gear.. A 5* g11 will have much lower stats than most g11s you'll face, as they'll likely have higher stars. So it'll likely get killed in one or two shots.

    So yes, I read it carefully. Wanted to clarify.

    I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Gear bumps produce stats all by themselves. When I add my last gear item for G6 before going to G7, I get a bump for whatever item I just added. My GP reflects that. However, before I hit the "Update" button to take me to G7, I have no protection. Once I hit the Update button, in addition to the numerous other stat bumps, I also get protection for the first time. I get 0 GP from that massive stat bump or from any of the other gear bumps (which are even larger).

    You are also wrong about the mods in the sense that GP accurately reflects their impact. I thought this went without saying, but let's take the example I provided and extrapolate that out to 6 mods. We both agree that the 2 mod examples I provided give the exact same GP value since they are both 5 dot gold mods. For the sake of the discussion, let's say that a toon has 6 of each value to fill all their mod slots. What you have with the first toon is a bump of:
    90 Speed
    3.6% Health
    4.5% Crit Chance
    2400 Protection

    What you have with the second set of mods (which currently give the EXACT SAME amount of GP) is:

    150 Speed
    12% Health
    12% Crit Chance
    6600 Protection

    That is a difference of:
    60 Speed
    8.4% Health
    7.5% Crit Chance
    4200 Protection

    That is a HUGE discrepancy in stats and could ENTIRELY determine the difference between winning and losing a battle between two otherwise similar units (yes, that's a difference for just one unit, not even a whole squad). GP currently does not account for that AT ALL and you're going to tell me it does a good job of reflecting the stats. Come on!

    You listed every secondary stat on the second mod as significantly higher than the first. That just doesn't happen. To have a +25 speed mod speed has to roll every time. So the other 3 seconfary stats don't roll at all. So while the speed is higher on a mod that rolls speed, the other 3 stats would be lower, not higher.
  • Gannon
    1473 posts Member
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.

    I did. I'll give examples:
    "Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes."
    It does, or at least gp is increased at the same rate, so it reflects it fairly well.

    "For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's broken."
    It is, and you even mention that in your next sentence. Clicking the 'upgrade' button simply unlocks the next gear tier, it ads no extra gp or stats, as well it shouldn't. The gp increases for each piece you add, by a number that seems to be tied to which tier it falls into. Every piece of gear adds gp.

    "Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model."
    yes, adding a new star level adds to stats like health, etc. It increases at the same time as gp, so what's to say it's not tied together? The value of the stat increase is different for each toon, but always the same total value. It's just split across the three stat modifiers: strength, agility, & tactics..

    "The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken."
    Mod gp is based on dot count (higher dots have more drastic increases), level (increases admit of boosts), and tier (the amount of boosts total). A five dot gold mod will always be more gp than a five dot blue, as there's more upgrades. Can't base it on speed, sometimes other factors are more important.

    "You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats."
    There's no way to tell if gp is based on stats, as both increase at fairly equal levels. Due to this similar increase, it doesn't matter, chicken or egg.

    "None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. "
    Stars increase gp and stats faster and more broadly with stars than gear.. A 5* g11 will have much lower stats than most g11s you'll face, as they'll likely have higher stars. So it'll likely get killed in one or two shots.

    So yes, I read it carefully. Wanted to clarify.

    I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Gear bumps produce stats all by themselves. When I add my last gear item for G6 before going to G7, I get a bump for whatever item I just added. My GP reflects that. However, before I hit the "Update" button to take me to G7, I have no protection. Once I hit the Update button, in addition to the numerous other stat bumps, I also get protection for the first time. I get 0 GP from that massive stat bump or from any of the other gear bumps (which are even larger).

    You are also wrong about the mods in the sense that GP accurately reflects their impact. I thought this went without saying, but let's take the example I provided and extrapolate that out to 6 mods. We both agree that the 2 mod examples I provided give the exact same GP value since they are both 5 dot gold mods. For the sake of the discussion, let's say that a toon has 6 of each value to fill all their mod slots. What you have with the first toon is a bump of:
    90 Speed
    3.6% Health
    4.5% Crit Chance
    2400 Protection

    What you have with the second set of mods (which currently give the EXACT SAME amount of GP) is:

    150 Speed
    12% Health
    12% Crit Chance
    6600 Protection

    That is a difference of:
    60 Speed
    8.4% Health
    7.5% Crit Chance
    4200 Protection

    That is a HUGE discrepancy in stats and could ENTIRELY determine the difference between winning and losing a battle between two otherwise similar units (yes, that's a difference for just one unit, not even a whole squad). GP currently does not account for that AT ALL and you're going to tell me it does a good job of reflecting the stats. Come on!

    Upgrading a gear tier doesn't add stats by itself, it increases the multipliers (str, agi, tac), which is affected by everything else.
    As far as protection, not positive, but I think it's locked out of these stat increases until g7. So it seems to jump up from nowhere. (That is an assumption)
    As far as mods, you're giving them your own opinion of value. If two mods are both 5 dot gold mods, they're equal. How the stats rolled is entirely random, and makes no difference to the gp of the mod. Sliced mods will get slightly lower upgrades per level also, but have the same total gp.
  • Liath wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.

    This is what the original character power tried to do and it was terrible. It way overweighted health and didn't accurately account for other stats that people cared about a lot more. The problem with this type of thing is that it's subjective, it's character dependent (some characters benefit a lot more from certain stats than others do), and it's variable as the game progresses (things become more or less important due to new abilities and synergies and whatnot). So even if they came up with a good system right now it probably wouldn't remain a good system very long and it would require immense amounts of work to maintain.

    This is the key. The values they come up with for each attribute have to be good and make sense in the game. If that is off, then everything suffers. The reality is that there may need to be some other algorithm at play to iron out other variables. For example, Pokémon Go has attempted to do something similar with their CP as we have with our GP. In that game, you can have the strongest attacker with very little health so it dies quickly, but the CP is lower for that unit than one that has similar attack and more health to survive. It's overall CP considers its health, defense, and attack to come up with something that reflects both attack power and survivability. There is no way to have a perfect system with something like this because you'll always have outliers that have massive attack and no survivability or massive survivability and no damage output. GP doesn't have to always be an indicator of who is going to win a battle. If I pile on offensive mods and have no survivability and then die because my guys are all glass cannons... I can't complain about that. My GP should reflect my mods, but if I leave myself vulnerable, I can't complain about losing even though my GP may have been higher. GP should reflect all stat increases though and be relative to how much the stats increase, which it does not currently do.
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.

    I did. I'll give examples:
    "Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes."
    It does, or at least gp is increased at the same rate, so it reflects it fairly well.

    "For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's broken."
    It is, and you even mention that in your next sentence. Clicking the 'upgrade' button simply unlocks the next gear tier, it ads no extra gp or stats, as well it shouldn't. The gp increases for each piece you add, by a number that seems to be tied to which tier it falls into. Every piece of gear adds gp.

    "Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model."
    yes, adding a new star level adds to stats like health, etc. It increases at the same time as gp, so what's to say it's not tied together? The value of the stat increase is different for each toon, but always the same total value. It's just split across the three stat modifiers: strength, agility, & tactics..

    "The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken."
    Mod gp is based on dot count (higher dots have more drastic increases), level (increases admit of boosts), and tier (the amount of boosts total). A five dot gold mod will always be more gp than a five dot blue, as there's more upgrades. Can't base it on speed, sometimes other factors are more important.

    "You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats."
    There's no way to tell if gp is based on stats, as both increase at fairly equal levels. Due to this similar increase, it doesn't matter, chicken or egg.

    "None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. "
    Stars increase gp and stats faster and more broadly with stars than gear.. A 5* g11 will have much lower stats than most g11s you'll face, as they'll likely have higher stars. So it'll likely get killed in one or two shots.

    So yes, I read it carefully. Wanted to clarify.

    I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Gear bumps produce stats all by themselves. When I add my last gear item for G6 before going to G7, I get a bump for whatever item I just added. My GP reflects that. However, before I hit the "Update" button to take me to G7, I have no protection. Once I hit the Update button, in addition to the numerous other stat bumps, I also get protection for the first time. I get 0 GP from that massive stat bump or from any of the other gear bumps (which are even larger).

    You are also wrong about the mods in the sense that GP accurately reflects their impact. I thought this went without saying, but let's take the example I provided and extrapolate that out to 6 mods. We both agree that the 2 mod examples I provided give the exact same GP value since they are both 5 dot gold mods. For the sake of the discussion, let's say that a toon has 6 of each value to fill all their mod slots. What you have with the first toon is a bump of:
    90 Speed
    3.6% Health
    4.5% Crit Chance
    2400 Protection

    What you have with the second set of mods (which currently give the EXACT SAME amount of GP) is:

    150 Speed
    12% Health
    12% Crit Chance
    6600 Protection

    That is a difference of:
    60 Speed
    8.4% Health
    7.5% Crit Chance
    4200 Protection

    That is a HUGE discrepancy in stats and could ENTIRELY determine the difference between winning and losing a battle between two otherwise similar units (yes, that's a difference for just one unit, not even a whole squad). GP currently does not account for that AT ALL and you're going to tell me it does a good job of reflecting the stats. Come on!

    Upgrading a gear tier doesn't add stats by itself, it increases the multipliers (str, agi, tac), which is affected by everything else.
    As far as protection, not positive, but I think it's locked out of these stat increases until g7. So it seems to jump up from nowhere. (That is an assumption)
    As far as mods, you're giving them your own opinion of value. If two mods are both 5 dot gold mods, they're equal. How the stats rolled is entirely random, and makes no difference to the gp of the mod. Sliced mods will get slightly lower upgrades per level also, but have the same total gp.

    I think he rather says GP value of mods should be based on stats they generate (as should level/gear/stars)
  • No_Try wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »

    In regards to evaluating star/level bumps vs gear bumps, that's easy. You have to change your way of thinking to looking at the stats. Both those bumps produce stat changes. If there is GP value assigned to the individual stats, each bump impacts the GP based on the stats that are increased. It's very straight forward, accurate, and consistent.

    Then we have to weigh between relative impact of each stat. Give an example of what you think as fair using stars/gear.

    Yes, this is the key and I'm not going to even attempt it because it would only distract from the point I'm making. CG would need to do some serious data analysis, reporting, graphing, and testing to do a good job. That is the kind of thing I do for a living, so I have an idea of the kind of analysis that would need to go into this to make it good. Because of that, I'm not going to trivialize it by throwing out flawed guesses as to how the attributes should be weighted. It would definitely be a big job, but if done correctly, it would totally be worth it.
  • GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.

    I did. I'll give examples:
    "Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes."
    It does, or at least gp is increased at the same rate, so it reflects it fairly well.

    "For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's broken."
    It is, and you even mention that in your next sentence. Clicking the 'upgrade' button simply unlocks the next gear tier, it ads no extra gp or stats, as well it shouldn't. The gp increases for each piece you add, by a number that seems to be tied to which tier it falls into. Every piece of gear adds gp.

    "Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model."
    yes, adding a new star level adds to stats like health, etc. It increases at the same time as gp, so what's to say it's not tied together? The value of the stat increase is different for each toon, but always the same total value. It's just split across the three stat modifiers: strength, agility, & tactics..

    "The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken."
    Mod gp is based on dot count (higher dots have more drastic increases), level (increases admit of boosts), and tier (the amount of boosts total). A five dot gold mod will always be more gp than a five dot blue, as there's more upgrades. Can't base it on speed, sometimes other factors are more important.

    "You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats."
    There's no way to tell if gp is based on stats, as both increase at fairly equal levels. Due to this similar increase, it doesn't matter, chicken or egg.

    "None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. "
    Stars increase gp and stats faster and more broadly with stars than gear.. A 5* g11 will have much lower stats than most g11s you'll face, as they'll likely have higher stars. So it'll likely get killed in one or two shots.

    So yes, I read it carefully. Wanted to clarify.

    I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Gear bumps produce stats all by themselves. When I add my last gear item for G6 before going to G7, I get a bump for whatever item I just added. My GP reflects that. However, before I hit the "Update" button to take me to G7, I have no protection. Once I hit the Update button, in addition to the numerous other stat bumps, I also get protection for the first time. I get 0 GP from that massive stat bump or from any of the other gear bumps (which are even larger).

    You are also wrong about the mods in the sense that GP accurately reflects their impact. I thought this went without saying, but let's take the example I provided and extrapolate that out to 6 mods. We both agree that the 2 mod examples I provided give the exact same GP value since they are both 5 dot gold mods. For the sake of the discussion, let's say that a toon has 6 of each value to fill all their mod slots. What you have with the first toon is a bump of:
    90 Speed
    3.6% Health
    4.5% Crit Chance
    2400 Protection

    What you have with the second set of mods (which currently give the EXACT SAME amount of GP) is:

    150 Speed
    12% Health
    12% Crit Chance
    6600 Protection

    That is a difference of:
    60 Speed
    8.4% Health
    7.5% Crit Chance
    4200 Protection

    That is a HUGE discrepancy in stats and could ENTIRELY determine the difference between winning and losing a battle between two otherwise similar units (yes, that's a difference for just one unit, not even a whole squad). GP currently does not account for that AT ALL and you're going to tell me it does a good job of reflecting the stats. Come on!

    Giving mods different GPs based on stats is an awful, awful idea.

    How do you quantify the value of potency vs tenacity, offense vs crit damage vs crit chance or health vs defense vs protection? You can’t. The value of each stat depends ENTIRELY on the situation... like the opponent, your allies, a characters base stats, etc.

    Yes, speed is still the most valuable secondary stat in most situations but it’s comparative value varies so much in different combat situations that it isn’t possible to assign a consistent relative value to it with regard to GP.

    Essentially, reading between the lines of your post is the desire to raise the GP of players with faster mods.
  • Gannon
    1473 posts Member
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.

    I did. I'll give examples:
    "Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes."
    It does, or at least gp is increased at the same rate, so it reflects it fairly well.

    "For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's broken."
    It is, and you even mention that in your next sentence. Clicking the 'upgrade' button simply unlocks the next gear tier, it ads no extra gp or stats, as well it shouldn't. The gp increases for each piece you add, by a number that seems to be tied to which tier it falls into. Every piece of gear adds gp.

    "Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model."
    yes, adding a new star level adds to stats like health, etc. It increases at the same time as gp, so what's to say it's not tied together? The value of the stat increase is different for each toon, but always the same total value. It's just split across the three stat modifiers: strength, agility, & tactics..

    "The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken."
    Mod gp is based on dot count (higher dots have more drastic increases), level (increases admit of boosts), and tier (the amount of boosts total). A five dot gold mod will always be more gp than a five dot blue, as there's more upgrades. Can't base it on speed, sometimes other factors are more important.

    "You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats."
    There's no way to tell if gp is based on stats, as both increase at fairly equal levels. Due to this similar increase, it doesn't matter, chicken or egg.

    "None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. "
    Stars increase gp and stats faster and more broadly with stars than gear.. A 5* g11 will have much lower stats than most g11s you'll face, as they'll likely have higher stars. So it'll likely get killed in one or two shots.

    So yes, I read it carefully. Wanted to clarify.

    I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Gear bumps produce stats all by themselves. When I add my last gear item for G6 before going to G7, I get a bump for whatever item I just added. My GP reflects that. However, before I hit the "Update" button to take me to G7, I have no protection. Once I hit the Update button, in addition to the numerous other stat bumps, I also get protection for the first time. I get 0 GP from that massive stat bump or from any of the other gear bumps (which are even larger).

    You are also wrong about the mods in the sense that GP accurately reflects their impact. I thought this went without saying, but let's take the example I provided and extrapolate that out to 6 mods. We both agree that the 2 mod examples I provided give the exact same GP value since they are both 5 dot gold mods. For the sake of the discussion, let's say that a toon has 6 of each value to fill all their mod slots. What you have with the first toon is a bump of:
    90 Speed
    3.6% Health
    4.5% Crit Chance
    2400 Protection

    What you have with the second set of mods (which currently give the EXACT SAME amount of GP) is:

    150 Speed
    12% Health
    12% Crit Chance
    6600 Protection

    That is a difference of:
    60 Speed
    8.4% Health
    7.5% Crit Chance
    4200 Protection

    That is a HUGE discrepancy in stats and could ENTIRELY determine the difference between winning and losing a battle between two otherwise similar units (yes, that's a difference for just one unit, not even a whole squad). GP currently does not account for that AT ALL and you're going to tell me it does a good job of reflecting the stats. Come on!

    Upgrading a gear tier doesn't add stats by itself, it increases the multipliers (str, agi, tac), which is affected by everything else.
    As far as protection, not positive, but I think it's locked out of these stat increases until g7. So it seems to jump up from nowhere. (That is an assumption)
    As far as mods, you're giving them your own opinion of value. If two mods are both 5 dot gold mods, they're equal. How the stats rolled is entirely random, and makes no difference to the gp of the mod. Sliced mods will get slightly lower upgrades per level also, but have the same total gp.

    I think he rather says GP value of mods should be based on stats they generate (as should level/gear/stars)

    Yea that seems to be his implication. I'm just pointing out how they work now, which seems perfectly fine to me.
    Plus Sometimes I don't want all out speed on a mod tho lol
  • BrtStlnd wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.

    I did. I'll give examples:
    "Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes."
    It does, or at least gp is increased at the same rate, so it reflects it fairly well.

    "For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's broken."
    It is, and you even mention that in your next sentence. Clicking the 'upgrade' button simply unlocks the next gear tier, it ads no extra gp or stats, as well it shouldn't. The gp increases for each piece you add, by a number that seems to be tied to which tier it falls into. Every piece of gear adds gp.

    "Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model."
    yes, adding a new star level adds to stats like health, etc. It increases at the same time as gp, so what's to say it's not tied together? The value of the stat increase is different for each toon, but always the same total value. It's just split across the three stat modifiers: strength, agility, & tactics..

    "The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken."
    Mod gp is based on dot count (higher dots have more drastic increases), level (increases admit of boosts), and tier (the amount of boosts total). A five dot gold mod will always be more gp than a five dot blue, as there's more upgrades. Can't base it on speed, sometimes other factors are more important.

    "You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats."
    There's no way to tell if gp is based on stats, as both increase at fairly equal levels. Due to this similar increase, it doesn't matter, chicken or egg.

    "None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. "
    Stars increase gp and stats faster and more broadly with stars than gear.. A 5* g11 will have much lower stats than most g11s you'll face, as they'll likely have higher stars. So it'll likely get killed in one or two shots.

    So yes, I read it carefully. Wanted to clarify.

    I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Gear bumps produce stats all by themselves. When I add my last gear item for G6 before going to G7, I get a bump for whatever item I just added. My GP reflects that. However, before I hit the "Update" button to take me to G7, I have no protection. Once I hit the Update button, in addition to the numerous other stat bumps, I also get protection for the first time. I get 0 GP from that massive stat bump or from any of the other gear bumps (which are even larger).

    You are also wrong about the mods in the sense that GP accurately reflects their impact. I thought this went without saying, but let's take the example I provided and extrapolate that out to 6 mods. We both agree that the 2 mod examples I provided give the exact same GP value since they are both 5 dot gold mods. For the sake of the discussion, let's say that a toon has 6 of each value to fill all their mod slots. What you have with the first toon is a bump of:
    90 Speed
    3.6% Health
    4.5% Crit Chance
    2400 Protection

    What you have with the second set of mods (which currently give the EXACT SAME amount of GP) is:

    150 Speed
    12% Health
    12% Crit Chance
    6600 Protection

    That is a difference of:
    60 Speed
    8.4% Health
    7.5% Crit Chance
    4200 Protection

    That is a HUGE discrepancy in stats and could ENTIRELY determine the difference between winning and losing a battle between two otherwise similar units (yes, that's a difference for just one unit, not even a whole squad). GP currently does not account for that AT ALL and you're going to tell me it does a good job of reflecting the stats. Come on!

    Giving mods different GPs based on stats is an awful, awful idea.

    How do you quantify the value of potency vs tenacity, offense vs crit damage vs crit chance or health vs defense vs protection? You can’t. The value of each stat depends ENTIRELY on the situation... like the opponent, your allies, a characters base stats, etc.

    Yes, speed is still the most valuable secondary stat in most situations but it’s comparative value varies so much in different combat situations that it isn’t possible to assign a consistent relative value to it with regard to GP.

    Essentially, reading between the lines of your post is the desire to raise the GP of players with faster mods.

    I'm not advocating for any specific attribute. Just pointing out that our current GP system does not accurately reflect attributes. It's doesn't reflect gear level increases, which is absolutely crazy to me. It also doesn't differentiate in any way between a total piece of garbage gold 5 dot mod and what is referred to as God mods. That also is completely misleading.
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