Galactic Power Adjustment

Replies

  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.

    I did. I'll give examples:
    "Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes."
    It does, or at least gp is increased at the same rate, so it reflects it fairly well.

    "For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's broken."
    It is, and you even mention that in your next sentence. Clicking the 'upgrade' button simply unlocks the next gear tier, it ads no extra gp or stats, as well it shouldn't. The gp increases for each piece you add, by a number that seems to be tied to which tier it falls into. Every piece of gear adds gp.

    "Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model."
    yes, adding a new star level adds to stats like health, etc. It increases at the same time as gp, so what's to say it's not tied together? The value of the stat increase is different for each toon, but always the same total value. It's just split across the three stat modifiers: strength, agility, & tactics..

    "The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken."
    Mod gp is based on dot count (higher dots have more drastic increases), level (increases admit of boosts), and tier (the amount of boosts total). A five dot gold mod will always be more gp than a five dot blue, as there's more upgrades. Can't base it on speed, sometimes other factors are more important.

    "You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats."
    There's no way to tell if gp is based on stats, as both increase at fairly equal levels. Due to this similar increase, it doesn't matter, chicken or egg.

    "None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. "
    Stars increase gp and stats faster and more broadly with stars than gear.. A 5* g11 will have much lower stats than most g11s you'll face, as they'll likely have higher stars. So it'll likely get killed in one or two shots.

    So yes, I read it carefully. Wanted to clarify.

    I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Gear bumps produce stats all by themselves. When I add my last gear item for G6 before going to G7, I get a bump for whatever item I just added. My GP reflects that. However, before I hit the "Update" button to take me to G7, I have no protection. Once I hit the Update button, in addition to the numerous other stat bumps, I also get protection for the first time. I get 0 GP from that massive stat bump or from any of the other gear bumps (which are even larger).

    You are also wrong about the mods in the sense that GP accurately reflects their impact. I thought this went without saying, but let's take the example I provided and extrapolate that out to 6 mods. We both agree that the 2 mod examples I provided give the exact same GP value since they are both 5 dot gold mods. For the sake of the discussion, let's say that a toon has 6 of each value to fill all their mod slots. What you have with the first toon is a bump of:
    90 Speed
    3.6% Health
    4.5% Crit Chance
    2400 Protection

    What you have with the second set of mods (which currently give the EXACT SAME amount of GP) is:

    150 Speed
    12% Health
    12% Crit Chance
    6600 Protection

    That is a difference of:
    60 Speed
    8.4% Health
    7.5% Crit Chance
    4200 Protection

    That is a HUGE discrepancy in stats and could ENTIRELY determine the difference between winning and losing a battle between two otherwise similar units (yes, that's a difference for just one unit, not even a whole squad). GP currently does not account for that AT ALL and you're going to tell me it does a good job of reflecting the stats. Come on!

    Upgrading a gear tier doesn't add stats by itself, it increases the multipliers (str, agi, tac), which is affected by everything else.
    As far as protection, not positive, but I think it's locked out of these stat increases until g7. So it seems to jump up from nowhere. (That is an assumption)
    As far as mods, you're giving them your own opinion of value. If two mods are both 5 dot gold mods, they're equal. How the stats rolled is entirely random, and makes no difference to the gp of the mod. Sliced mods will get slightly lower upgrades per level also, but have the same total gp.

    I think he rather says GP value of mods should be based on stats they generate (as should level/gear/stars)

    Yea that seems to be his implication. I'm just pointing out how they work now, which seems perfectly fine to me.
    Plus Sometimes I don't want all out speed on a mod tho lol

    It's not necessarily speed will generate far more GP. It's that mods don't have to have flat GP values, but ones rather derived from their impact all together. After all we're trying to get a universally fair system to assign what gets what GP values. If all the other things will be determined based on their stats impact, there is no reason to exclude mods from that. This also means mods relative GP value to all else will change, I dunno if it will be more or less, probably a bit more.
  • Gannon
    1475 posts Member
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.

    I did. I'll give examples:
    "Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes."
    It does, or at least gp is increased at the same rate, so it reflects it fairly well.

    "For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's broken."
    It is, and you even mention that in your next sentence. Clicking the 'upgrade' button simply unlocks the next gear tier, it ads no extra gp or stats, as well it shouldn't. The gp increases for each piece you add, by a number that seems to be tied to which tier it falls into. Every piece of gear adds gp.

    "Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model."
    yes, adding a new star level adds to stats like health, etc. It increases at the same time as gp, so what's to say it's not tied together? The value of the stat increase is different for each toon, but always the same total value. It's just split across the three stat modifiers: strength, agility, & tactics..

    "The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken."
    Mod gp is based on dot count (higher dots have more drastic increases), level (increases admit of boosts), and tier (the amount of boosts total). A five dot gold mod will always be more gp than a five dot blue, as there's more upgrades. Can't base it on speed, sometimes other factors are more important.

    "You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats."
    There's no way to tell if gp is based on stats, as both increase at fairly equal levels. Due to this similar increase, it doesn't matter, chicken or egg.

    "None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. "
    Stars increase gp and stats faster and more broadly with stars than gear.. A 5* g11 will have much lower stats than most g11s you'll face, as they'll likely have higher stars. So it'll likely get killed in one or two shots.

    So yes, I read it carefully. Wanted to clarify.

    I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Gear bumps produce stats all by themselves. When I add my last gear item for G6 before going to G7, I get a bump for whatever item I just added. My GP reflects that. However, before I hit the "Update" button to take me to G7, I have no protection. Once I hit the Update button, in addition to the numerous other stat bumps, I also get protection for the first time. I get 0 GP from that massive stat bump or from any of the other gear bumps (which are even larger).

    You are also wrong about the mods in the sense that GP accurately reflects their impact. I thought this went without saying, but let's take the example I provided and extrapolate that out to 6 mods. We both agree that the 2 mod examples I provided give the exact same GP value since they are both 5 dot gold mods. For the sake of the discussion, let's say that a toon has 6 of each value to fill all their mod slots. What you have with the first toon is a bump of:
    90 Speed
    3.6% Health
    4.5% Crit Chance
    2400 Protection

    What you have with the second set of mods (which currently give the EXACT SAME amount of GP) is:

    150 Speed
    12% Health
    12% Crit Chance
    6600 Protection

    That is a difference of:
    60 Speed
    8.4% Health
    7.5% Crit Chance
    4200 Protection

    That is a HUGE discrepancy in stats and could ENTIRELY determine the difference between winning and losing a battle between two otherwise similar units (yes, that's a difference for just one unit, not even a whole squad). GP currently does not account for that AT ALL and you're going to tell me it does a good job of reflecting the stats. Come on!

    Upgrading a gear tier doesn't add stats by itself, it increases the multipliers (str, agi, tac), which is affected by everything else.
    As far as protection, not positive, but I think it's locked out of these stat increases until g7. So it seems to jump up from nowhere. (That is an assumption)
    As far as mods, you're giving them your own opinion of value. If two mods are both 5 dot gold mods, they're equal. How the stats rolled is entirely random, and makes no difference to the gp of the mod. Sliced mods will get slightly lower upgrades per level also, but have the same total gp.

    I think he rather says GP value of mods should be based on stats they generate (as should level/gear/stars)

    Yea that seems to be his implication. I'm just pointing out how they work now, which seems perfectly fine to me.
    Plus Sometimes I don't want all out speed on a mod tho lol

    It's not necessarily speed will generate far more GP. It's that mods don't have to have flat GP values, but ones rather derived from their impact all together. After all we're trying to get a universally fair system to assign what gets what GP values. If all the other things will be determined based on their stats impact, there is no reason to exclude mods from that. This also means mods relative GP value to all else will change, I dunno if it will be more or less, probably a bit more.

    Adding varying gp values for mods would be even less reliable tho. Imagine something like secura, if every mod was balanced between speed, cc and potency, she would be much more valuable than one whose mods are all rolled for any one attribute.
    My point is that If it rolls 6 times on one stat, that doesn't necessarily make it better.
  • Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.

    I did. I'll give examples:
    "Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes."
    It does, or at least gp is increased at the same rate, so it reflects it fairly well.

    "For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's broken."
    It is, and you even mention that in your next sentence. Clicking the 'upgrade' button simply unlocks the next gear tier, it ads no extra gp or stats, as well it shouldn't. The gp increases for each piece you add, by a number that seems to be tied to which tier it falls into. Every piece of gear adds gp.

    "Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model."
    yes, adding a new star level adds to stats like health, etc. It increases at the same time as gp, so what's to say it's not tied together? The value of the stat increase is different for each toon, but always the same total value. It's just split across the three stat modifiers: strength, agility, & tactics..

    "The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken."
    Mod gp is based on dot count (higher dots have more drastic increases), level (increases admit of boosts), and tier (the amount of boosts total). A five dot gold mod will always be more gp than a five dot blue, as there's more upgrades. Can't base it on speed, sometimes other factors are more important.

    "You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats."
    There's no way to tell if gp is based on stats, as both increase at fairly equal levels. Due to this similar increase, it doesn't matter, chicken or egg.

    "None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. "
    Stars increase gp and stats faster and more broadly with stars than gear.. A 5* g11 will have much lower stats than most g11s you'll face, as they'll likely have higher stars. So it'll likely get killed in one or two shots.

    So yes, I read it carefully. Wanted to clarify.

    I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Gear bumps produce stats all by themselves. When I add my last gear item for G6 before going to G7, I get a bump for whatever item I just added. My GP reflects that. However, before I hit the "Update" button to take me to G7, I have no protection. Once I hit the Update button, in addition to the numerous other stat bumps, I also get protection for the first time. I get 0 GP from that massive stat bump or from any of the other gear bumps (which are even larger).

    You are also wrong about the mods in the sense that GP accurately reflects their impact. I thought this went without saying, but let's take the example I provided and extrapolate that out to 6 mods. We both agree that the 2 mod examples I provided give the exact same GP value since they are both 5 dot gold mods. For the sake of the discussion, let's say that a toon has 6 of each value to fill all their mod slots. What you have with the first toon is a bump of:
    90 Speed
    3.6% Health
    4.5% Crit Chance
    2400 Protection

    What you have with the second set of mods (which currently give the EXACT SAME amount of GP) is:

    150 Speed
    12% Health
    12% Crit Chance
    6600 Protection

    That is a difference of:
    60 Speed
    8.4% Health
    7.5% Crit Chance
    4200 Protection

    That is a HUGE discrepancy in stats and could ENTIRELY determine the difference between winning and losing a battle between two otherwise similar units (yes, that's a difference for just one unit, not even a whole squad). GP currently does not account for that AT ALL and you're going to tell me it does a good job of reflecting the stats. Come on!

    Upgrading a gear tier doesn't add stats by itself, it increases the multipliers (str, agi, tac), which is affected by everything else.
    As far as protection, not positive, but I think it's locked out of these stat increases until g7. So it seems to jump up from nowhere. (That is an assumption)
    As far as mods, you're giving them your own opinion of value. If two mods are both 5 dot gold mods, they're equal. How the stats rolled is entirely random, and makes no difference to the gp of the mod. Sliced mods will get slightly lower upgrades per level also, but have the same total gp.

    I'm sorry, but you're just wrong. Next time you're about to bump a gear level, add the last gear item but don't hit upgrade yet. Then open your unit's attributes and write down or screenshot them. Then go hit upgrade and look at the attributes again. You'll notice a bump in every area that quickly flashes by when you hit the upgrade button. I do it all the time, although I'm usually only looking for speed and protection because it is flashing so quickly and hard to track.

    I can't believe you even said what you did about 5 dot gold mods. Yes the stats are all random RNG, but not every 5 dot gold mod is equal in its impact on the unit... you can't possibly think that's true. The example I provided makes that crystal clear. The second mod is way better than the first.
  • GodlikeNay wrote: »
    BrtStlnd wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.

    I did. I'll give examples:
    "Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes."
    It does, or at least gp is increased at the same rate, so it reflects it fairly well.

    "For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's broken."
    It is, and you even mention that in your next sentence. Clicking the 'upgrade' button simply unlocks the next gear tier, it ads no extra gp or stats, as well it shouldn't. The gp increases for each piece you add, by a number that seems to be tied to which tier it falls into. Every piece of gear adds gp.

    "Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model."
    yes, adding a new star level adds to stats like health, etc. It increases at the same time as gp, so what's to say it's not tied together? The value of the stat increase is different for each toon, but always the same total value. It's just split across the three stat modifiers: strength, agility, & tactics..

    "The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken."
    Mod gp is based on dot count (higher dots have more drastic increases), level (increases admit of boosts), and tier (the amount of boosts total). A five dot gold mod will always be more gp than a five dot blue, as there's more upgrades. Can't base it on speed, sometimes other factors are more important.

    "You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats."
    There's no way to tell if gp is based on stats, as both increase at fairly equal levels. Due to this similar increase, it doesn't matter, chicken or egg.

    "None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. "
    Stars increase gp and stats faster and more broadly with stars than gear.. A 5* g11 will have much lower stats than most g11s you'll face, as they'll likely have higher stars. So it'll likely get killed in one or two shots.

    So yes, I read it carefully. Wanted to clarify.

    I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Gear bumps produce stats all by themselves. When I add my last gear item for G6 before going to G7, I get a bump for whatever item I just added. My GP reflects that. However, before I hit the "Update" button to take me to G7, I have no protection. Once I hit the Update button, in addition to the numerous other stat bumps, I also get protection for the first time. I get 0 GP from that massive stat bump or from any of the other gear bumps (which are even larger).

    You are also wrong about the mods in the sense that GP accurately reflects their impact. I thought this went without saying, but let's take the example I provided and extrapolate that out to 6 mods. We both agree that the 2 mod examples I provided give the exact same GP value since they are both 5 dot gold mods. For the sake of the discussion, let's say that a toon has 6 of each value to fill all their mod slots. What you have with the first toon is a bump of:
    90 Speed
    3.6% Health
    4.5% Crit Chance
    2400 Protection

    What you have with the second set of mods (which currently give the EXACT SAME amount of GP) is:

    150 Speed
    12% Health
    12% Crit Chance
    6600 Protection

    That is a difference of:
    60 Speed
    8.4% Health
    7.5% Crit Chance
    4200 Protection

    That is a HUGE discrepancy in stats and could ENTIRELY determine the difference between winning and losing a battle between two otherwise similar units (yes, that's a difference for just one unit, not even a whole squad). GP currently does not account for that AT ALL and you're going to tell me it does a good job of reflecting the stats. Come on!

    Giving mods different GPs based on stats is an awful, awful idea.

    How do you quantify the value of potency vs tenacity, offense vs crit damage vs crit chance or health vs defense vs protection? You can’t. The value of each stat depends ENTIRELY on the situation... like the opponent, your allies, a characters base stats, etc.

    Yes, speed is still the most valuable secondary stat in most situations but it’s comparative value varies so much in different combat situations that it isn’t possible to assign a consistent relative value to it with regard to GP.

    Essentially, reading between the lines of your post is the desire to raise the GP of players with faster mods.

    I'm not advocating for any specific attribute. Just pointing out that our current GP system does not accurately reflect attributes. It's doesn't reflect gear level increases, which is absolutely crazy to me. It also doesn't differentiate in any way between a total piece of garbage gold 5 dot mod and what is referred to as God mods. That also is completely misleading.

    The only way to distinguish between garbage mods and good mods is completely subjective. If you tried to quantify it based off the mods stats you would just have complaints about protection being too heavily weighted or speed not being weighted enough.

    And as far as hitting the upgade button between gear tiers, GP seems more based on resources going in than stats. You get gp for gear, mods, abilities, and stars (shards farmed). Hitting the button costs zero resouces after adding the last piece so it doesn't raise gp.

  • GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.

    I did. I'll give examples:
    "Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes."
    It does, or at least gp is increased at the same rate, so it reflects it fairly well.

    "For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's broken."
    It is, and you even mention that in your next sentence. Clicking the 'upgrade' button simply unlocks the next gear tier, it ads no extra gp or stats, as well it shouldn't. The gp increases for each piece you add, by a number that seems to be tied to which tier it falls into. Every piece of gear adds gp.

    "Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model."
    yes, adding a new star level adds to stats like health, etc. It increases at the same time as gp, so what's to say it's not tied together? The value of the stat increase is different for each toon, but always the same total value. It's just split across the three stat modifiers: strength, agility, & tactics..

    "The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken."
    Mod gp is based on dot count (higher dots have more drastic increases), level (increases admit of boosts), and tier (the amount of boosts total). A five dot gold mod will always be more gp than a five dot blue, as there's more upgrades. Can't base it on speed, sometimes other factors are more important.

    "You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats."
    There's no way to tell if gp is based on stats, as both increase at fairly equal levels. Due to this similar increase, it doesn't matter, chicken or egg.

    "None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. "
    Stars increase gp and stats faster and more broadly with stars than gear.. A 5* g11 will have much lower stats than most g11s you'll face, as they'll likely have higher stars. So it'll likely get killed in one or two shots.

    So yes, I read it carefully. Wanted to clarify.

    I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Gear bumps produce stats all by themselves. When I add my last gear item for G6 before going to G7, I get a bump for whatever item I just added. My GP reflects that. However, before I hit the "Update" button to take me to G7, I have no protection. Once I hit the Update button, in addition to the numerous other stat bumps, I also get protection for the first time. I get 0 GP from that massive stat bump or from any of the other gear bumps (which are even larger).

    You are also wrong about the mods in the sense that GP accurately reflects their impact. I thought this went without saying, but let's take the example I provided and extrapolate that out to 6 mods. We both agree that the 2 mod examples I provided give the exact same GP value since they are both 5 dot gold mods. For the sake of the discussion, let's say that a toon has 6 of each value to fill all their mod slots. What you have with the first toon is a bump of:
    90 Speed
    3.6% Health
    4.5% Crit Chance
    2400 Protection

    What you have with the second set of mods (which currently give the EXACT SAME amount of GP) is:

    150 Speed
    12% Health
    12% Crit Chance
    6600 Protection

    That is a difference of:
    60 Speed
    8.4% Health
    7.5% Crit Chance
    4200 Protection

    That is a HUGE discrepancy in stats and could ENTIRELY determine the difference between winning and losing a battle between two otherwise similar units (yes, that's a difference for just one unit, not even a whole squad). GP currently does not account for that AT ALL and you're going to tell me it does a good job of reflecting the stats. Come on!

    Upgrading a gear tier doesn't add stats by itself, it increases the multipliers (str, agi, tac), which is affected by everything else.
    As far as protection, not positive, but I think it's locked out of these stat increases until g7. So it seems to jump up from nowhere. (That is an assumption)
    As far as mods, you're giving them your own opinion of value. If two mods are both 5 dot gold mods, they're equal. How the stats rolled is entirely random, and makes no difference to the gp of the mod. Sliced mods will get slightly lower upgrades per level also, but have the same total gp.

    I'm sorry, but you're just wrong. Next time you're about to bump a gear level, add the last gear item but don't hit upgrade yet. Then open your unit's attributes and write down or screenshot them. Then go hit upgrade and look at the attributes again. You'll notice a bump in every area that quickly flashes by when you hit the upgrade button. I do it all the time, although I'm usually only looking for speed and protection because it is flashing so quickly and hard to track.

    I can't believe you even said what you did about 5 dot gold mods. Yes the stats are all random RNG, but not every 5 dot gold mod is equal in its impact on the unit... you can't possibly think that's true. The example I provided makes that crystal clear. The second mod is way better than the first.

    The example you listed was unrealistic and I pointed that out. You just ignored it.
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.

    I did. I'll give examples:
    "Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes."
    It does, or at least gp is increased at the same rate, so it reflects it fairly well.

    "For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's broken."
    It is, and you even mention that in your next sentence. Clicking the 'upgrade' button simply unlocks the next gear tier, it ads no extra gp or stats, as well it shouldn't. The gp increases for each piece you add, by a number that seems to be tied to which tier it falls into. Every piece of gear adds gp.

    "Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model."
    yes, adding a new star level adds to stats like health, etc. It increases at the same time as gp, so what's to say it's not tied together? The value of the stat increase is different for each toon, but always the same total value. It's just split across the three stat modifiers: strength, agility, & tactics..

    "The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken."
    Mod gp is based on dot count (higher dots have more drastic increases), level (increases admit of boosts), and tier (the amount of boosts total). A five dot gold mod will always be more gp than a five dot blue, as there's more upgrades. Can't base it on speed, sometimes other factors are more important.

    "You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats."
    There's no way to tell if gp is based on stats, as both increase at fairly equal levels. Due to this similar increase, it doesn't matter, chicken or egg.

    "None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. "
    Stars increase gp and stats faster and more broadly with stars than gear.. A 5* g11 will have much lower stats than most g11s you'll face, as they'll likely have higher stars. So it'll likely get killed in one or two shots.

    So yes, I read it carefully. Wanted to clarify.

    I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Gear bumps produce stats all by themselves. When I add my last gear item for G6 before going to G7, I get a bump for whatever item I just added. My GP reflects that. However, before I hit the "Update" button to take me to G7, I have no protection. Once I hit the Update button, in addition to the numerous other stat bumps, I also get protection for the first time. I get 0 GP from that massive stat bump or from any of the other gear bumps (which are even larger).

    You are also wrong about the mods in the sense that GP accurately reflects their impact. I thought this went without saying, but let's take the example I provided and extrapolate that out to 6 mods. We both agree that the 2 mod examples I provided give the exact same GP value since they are both 5 dot gold mods. For the sake of the discussion, let's say that a toon has 6 of each value to fill all their mod slots. What you have with the first toon is a bump of:
    90 Speed
    3.6% Health
    4.5% Crit Chance
    2400 Protection

    What you have with the second set of mods (which currently give the EXACT SAME amount of GP) is:

    150 Speed
    12% Health
    12% Crit Chance
    6600 Protection

    That is a difference of:
    60 Speed
    8.4% Health
    7.5% Crit Chance
    4200 Protection

    That is a HUGE discrepancy in stats and could ENTIRELY determine the difference between winning and losing a battle between two otherwise similar units (yes, that's a difference for just one unit, not even a whole squad). GP currently does not account for that AT ALL and you're going to tell me it does a good job of reflecting the stats. Come on!

    Upgrading a gear tier doesn't add stats by itself, it increases the multipliers (str, agi, tac), which is affected by everything else.
    As far as protection, not positive, but I think it's locked out of these stat increases until g7. So it seems to jump up from nowhere. (That is an assumption)
    As far as mods, you're giving them your own opinion of value. If two mods are both 5 dot gold mods, they're equal. How the stats rolled is entirely random, and makes no difference to the gp of the mod. Sliced mods will get slightly lower upgrades per level also, but have the same total gp.

    I think he rather says GP value of mods should be based on stats they generate (as should level/gear/stars)

    Yea that seems to be his implication. I'm just pointing out how they work now, which seems perfectly fine to me.
    Plus Sometimes I don't want all out speed on a mod tho lol

    It's not necessarily speed will generate far more GP. It's that mods don't have to have flat GP values, but ones rather derived from their impact all together. After all we're trying to get a universally fair system to assign what gets what GP values. If all the other things will be determined based on their stats impact, there is no reason to exclude mods from that. This also means mods relative GP value to all else will change, I dunno if it will be more or less, probably a bit more.

    Adding varying gp values for mods would be even less reliable tho. Imagine something like secura, if every mod was balanced between speed, cc and potency, she would be much more valuable than one whose mods are all rolled for any one attribute.
    My point is that If it rolls 6 times on one stat, that doesn't necessarily make it better.

    Ok. It's player emphasis and strategy what to use depending on situation though. Player's own thoughtful input should naturally be rewarded for efficacy for the same GP cost. This doesn't change the fact that in order to get a universal system we can all tie everything to stats.
  • No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.

    I did. I'll give examples:
    "Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes."
    It does, or at least gp is increased at the same rate, so it reflects it fairly well.

    "For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's broken."
    It is, and you even mention that in your next sentence. Clicking the 'upgrade' button simply unlocks the next gear tier, it ads no extra gp or stats, as well it shouldn't. The gp increases for each piece you add, by a number that seems to be tied to which tier it falls into. Every piece of gear adds gp.

    "Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model."
    yes, adding a new star level adds to stats like health, etc. It increases at the same time as gp, so what's to say it's not tied together? The value of the stat increase is different for each toon, but always the same total value. It's just split across the three stat modifiers: strength, agility, & tactics..

    "The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken."
    Mod gp is based on dot count (higher dots have more drastic increases), level (increases admit of boosts), and tier (the amount of boosts total). A five dot gold mod will always be more gp than a five dot blue, as there's more upgrades. Can't base it on speed, sometimes other factors are more important.

    "You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats."
    There's no way to tell if gp is based on stats, as both increase at fairly equal levels. Due to this similar increase, it doesn't matter, chicken or egg.

    "None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. "
    Stars increase gp and stats faster and more broadly with stars than gear.. A 5* g11 will have much lower stats than most g11s you'll face, as they'll likely have higher stars. So it'll likely get killed in one or two shots.

    So yes, I read it carefully. Wanted to clarify.

    I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Gear bumps produce stats all by themselves. When I add my last gear item for G6 before going to G7, I get a bump for whatever item I just added. My GP reflects that. However, before I hit the "Update" button to take me to G7, I have no protection. Once I hit the Update button, in addition to the numerous other stat bumps, I also get protection for the first time. I get 0 GP from that massive stat bump or from any of the other gear bumps (which are even larger).

    You are also wrong about the mods in the sense that GP accurately reflects their impact. I thought this went without saying, but let's take the example I provided and extrapolate that out to 6 mods. We both agree that the 2 mod examples I provided give the exact same GP value since they are both 5 dot gold mods. For the sake of the discussion, let's say that a toon has 6 of each value to fill all their mod slots. What you have with the first toon is a bump of:
    90 Speed
    3.6% Health
    4.5% Crit Chance
    2400 Protection

    What you have with the second set of mods (which currently give the EXACT SAME amount of GP) is:

    150 Speed
    12% Health
    12% Crit Chance
    6600 Protection

    That is a difference of:
    60 Speed
    8.4% Health
    7.5% Crit Chance
    4200 Protection

    That is a HUGE discrepancy in stats and could ENTIRELY determine the difference between winning and losing a battle between two otherwise similar units (yes, that's a difference for just one unit, not even a whole squad). GP currently does not account for that AT ALL and you're going to tell me it does a good job of reflecting the stats. Come on!

    Upgrading a gear tier doesn't add stats by itself, it increases the multipliers (str, agi, tac), which is affected by everything else.
    As far as protection, not positive, but I think it's locked out of these stat increases until g7. So it seems to jump up from nowhere. (That is an assumption)
    As far as mods, you're giving them your own opinion of value. If two mods are both 5 dot gold mods, they're equal. How the stats rolled is entirely random, and makes no difference to the gp of the mod. Sliced mods will get slightly lower upgrades per level also, but have the same total gp.

    I think he rather says GP value of mods should be based on stats they generate (as should level/gear/stars)

    Yea that seems to be his implication. I'm just pointing out how they work now, which seems perfectly fine to me.
    Plus Sometimes I don't want all out speed on a mod tho lol

    It's not necessarily speed will generate far more GP. It's that mods don't have to have flat GP values, but ones rather derived from their impact all together. After all we're trying to get a universally fair system to assign what gets what GP values. If all the other things will be determined based on their stats impact, there is no reason to exclude mods from that. This also means mods relative GP value to all else will change, I dunno if it will be more or less, probably a bit more.

    Adding varying gp values for mods would be even less reliable tho. Imagine something like secura, if every mod was balanced between speed, cc and potency, she would be much more valuable than one whose mods are all rolled for any one attribute.
    My point is that If it rolls 6 times on one stat, that doesn't necessarily make it better.

    Ok. It's player emphasis and strategy what to use depending on situation though. Player's own thoughtful input should naturally be rewarded for efficacy for the same GP cost. This doesn't change the fact that in order to get a universal system we can all tie everything to stats.

    Would that really solve anything except to shift the advantage to a different group depending on how much they arbitrarily deciced which stat was worth what gp amount?
  • Gannon
    1475 posts Member
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.

    I did. I'll give examples:
    "Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes."
    It does, or at least gp is increased at the same rate, so it reflects it fairly well.

    "For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's broken."
    It is, and you even mention that in your next sentence. Clicking the 'upgrade' button simply unlocks the next gear tier, it ads no extra gp or stats, as well it shouldn't. The gp increases for each piece you add, by a number that seems to be tied to which tier it falls into. Every piece of gear adds gp.

    "Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model."
    yes, adding a new star level adds to stats like health, etc. It increases at the same time as gp, so what's to say it's not tied together? The value of the stat increase is different for each toon, but always the same total value. It's just split across the three stat modifiers: strength, agility, & tactics..

    "The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken."
    Mod gp is based on dot count (higher dots have more drastic increases), level (increases admit of boosts), and tier (the amount of boosts total). A five dot gold mod will always be more gp than a five dot blue, as there's more upgrades. Can't base it on speed, sometimes other factors are more important.

    "You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats."
    There's no way to tell if gp is based on stats, as both increase at fairly equal levels. Due to this similar increase, it doesn't matter, chicken or egg.

    "None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. "
    Stars increase gp and stats faster and more broadly with stars than gear.. A 5* g11 will have much lower stats than most g11s you'll face, as they'll likely have higher stars. So it'll likely get killed in one or two shots.

    So yes, I read it carefully. Wanted to clarify.

    I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Gear bumps produce stats all by themselves. When I add my last gear item for G6 before going to G7, I get a bump for whatever item I just added. My GP reflects that. However, before I hit the "Update" button to take me to G7, I have no protection. Once I hit the Update button, in addition to the numerous other stat bumps, I also get protection for the first time. I get 0 GP from that massive stat bump or from any of the other gear bumps (which are even larger).

    You are also wrong about the mods in the sense that GP accurately reflects their impact. I thought this went without saying, but let's take the example I provided and extrapolate that out to 6 mods. We both agree that the 2 mod examples I provided give the exact same GP value since they are both 5 dot gold mods. For the sake of the discussion, let's say that a toon has 6 of each value to fill all their mod slots. What you have with the first toon is a bump of:
    90 Speed
    3.6% Health
    4.5% Crit Chance
    2400 Protection

    What you have with the second set of mods (which currently give the EXACT SAME amount of GP) is:

    150 Speed
    12% Health
    12% Crit Chance
    6600 Protection

    That is a difference of:
    60 Speed
    8.4% Health
    7.5% Crit Chance
    4200 Protection

    That is a HUGE discrepancy in stats and could ENTIRELY determine the difference between winning and losing a battle between two otherwise similar units (yes, that's a difference for just one unit, not even a whole squad). GP currently does not account for that AT ALL and you're going to tell me it does a good job of reflecting the stats. Come on!

    Upgrading a gear tier doesn't add stats by itself, it increases the multipliers (str, agi, tac), which is affected by everything else.
    As far as protection, not positive, but I think it's locked out of these stat increases until g7. So it seems to jump up from nowhere. (That is an assumption)
    As far as mods, you're giving them your own opinion of value. If two mods are both 5 dot gold mods, they're equal. How the stats rolled is entirely random, and makes no difference to the gp of the mod. Sliced mods will get slightly lower upgrades per level also, but have the same total gp.

    I'm sorry, but you're just wrong. Next time you're about to bump a gear level, add the last gear item but don't hit upgrade yet. Then open your unit's attributes and write down or screenshot them. Then go hit upgrade and look at the attributes again. You'll notice a bump in every area that quickly flashes by when you hit the upgrade button. I do it all the time, although I'm usually only looking for speed and protection because it is flashing so quickly and hard to track.

    I can't believe you even said what you did about 5 dot gold mods. Yes the stats are all random RNG, but not every 5 dot gold mod is equal in its impact on the unit... you can't possibly think that's true. The example I provided makes that crystal clear. The second mod is way better than the first.

    I'm not wrong tho, I've done this at least four times this week alone, and written down everything while we figure out the gp calibrations here..
    It's increasing the stat multipliers, strength, agility and tactics, which are the factors that do upgrade stats Based on stars added. Try it with a five star, then a six star, with the and gear tier and you'll understand what I'm saying. Speed and protection upgrade the least from these multipliers, and as I said I assume that protection is blocked until g7, but after that it increases like other stats when stars are added.

    As far as mods, yes. Their gp is increased based on the total number and quality of upgrades currently, why would you think it would be better if based solely on single stat increases? 👀 what if you need two or three different things on a toon, like I said with secura? That's an entirely subjective goal
  • GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.

    I did. I'll give examples:
    "Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes."
    It does, or at least gp is increased at the same rate, so it reflects it fairly well.

    "For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's broken."
    It is, and you even mention that in your next sentence. Clicking the 'upgrade' button simply unlocks the next gear tier, it ads no extra gp or stats, as well it shouldn't. The gp increases for each piece you add, by a number that seems to be tied to which tier it falls into. Every piece of gear adds gp.

    "Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model."
    yes, adding a new star level adds to stats like health, etc. It increases at the same time as gp, so what's to say it's not tied together? The value of the stat increase is different for each toon, but always the same total value. It's just split across the three stat modifiers: strength, agility, & tactics..

    "The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken."
    Mod gp is based on dot count (higher dots have more drastic increases), level (increases admit of boosts), and tier (the amount of boosts total). A five dot gold mod will always be more gp than a five dot blue, as there's more upgrades. Can't base it on speed, sometimes other factors are more important.

    "You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats."
    There's no way to tell if gp is based on stats, as both increase at fairly equal levels. Due to this similar increase, it doesn't matter, chicken or egg.

    "None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. "
    Stars increase gp and stats faster and more broadly with stars than gear.. A 5* g11 will have much lower stats than most g11s you'll face, as they'll likely have higher stars. So it'll likely get killed in one or two shots.

    So yes, I read it carefully. Wanted to clarify.

    I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Gear bumps produce stats all by themselves. When I add my last gear item for G6 before going to G7, I get a bump for whatever item I just added. My GP reflects that. However, before I hit the "Update" button to take me to G7, I have no protection. Once I hit the Update button, in addition to the numerous other stat bumps, I also get protection for the first time. I get 0 GP from that massive stat bump or from any of the other gear bumps (which are even larger).

    You are also wrong about the mods in the sense that GP accurately reflects their impact. I thought this went without saying, but let's take the example I provided and extrapolate that out to 6 mods. We both agree that the 2 mod examples I provided give the exact same GP value since they are both 5 dot gold mods. For the sake of the discussion, let's say that a toon has 6 of each value to fill all their mod slots. What you have with the first toon is a bump of:
    90 Speed
    3.6% Health
    4.5% Crit Chance
    2400 Protection

    What you have with the second set of mods (which currently give the EXACT SAME amount of GP) is:

    150 Speed
    12% Health
    12% Crit Chance
    6600 Protection

    That is a difference of:
    60 Speed
    8.4% Health
    7.5% Crit Chance
    4200 Protection

    That is a HUGE discrepancy in stats and could ENTIRELY determine the difference between winning and losing a battle between two otherwise similar units (yes, that's a difference for just one unit, not even a whole squad). GP currently does not account for that AT ALL and you're going to tell me it does a good job of reflecting the stats. Come on!

    Upgrading a gear tier doesn't add stats by itself, it increases the multipliers (str, agi, tac), which is affected by everything else.
    As far as protection, not positive, but I think it's locked out of these stat increases until g7. So it seems to jump up from nowhere. (That is an assumption)
    As far as mods, you're giving them your own opinion of value. If two mods are both 5 dot gold mods, they're equal. How the stats rolled is entirely random, and makes no difference to the gp of the mod. Sliced mods will get slightly lower upgrades per level also, but have the same total gp.

    I'm sorry, but you're just wrong. Next time you're about to bump a gear level, add the last gear item but don't hit upgrade yet. Then open your unit's attributes and write down or screenshot them. Then go hit upgrade and look at the attributes again. You'll notice a bump in every area that quickly flashes by when you hit the upgrade button. I do it all the time, although I'm usually only looking for speed and protection because it is flashing so quickly and hard to track.

    I can't believe you even said what you did about 5 dot gold mods. Yes the stats are all random RNG, but not every 5 dot gold mod is equal in its impact on the unit... you can't possibly think that's true. The example I provided makes that crystal clear. The second mod is way better than the first.

    The example you listed was unrealistic and I pointed that out. You just ignored it.

    OMG, it was just an example to show how massive the discrepancy of mods can be for the same kind of mod. Those values I gave are not likely, but I do believe they fall within what is possible for mods, both on the high and the low side of things.
  • Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.

    I did. I'll give examples:
    "Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes."
    It does, or at least gp is increased at the same rate, so it reflects it fairly well.

    "For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's broken."
    It is, and you even mention that in your next sentence. Clicking the 'upgrade' button simply unlocks the next gear tier, it ads no extra gp or stats, as well it shouldn't. The gp increases for each piece you add, by a number that seems to be tied to which tier it falls into. Every piece of gear adds gp.

    "Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model."
    yes, adding a new star level adds to stats like health, etc. It increases at the same time as gp, so what's to say it's not tied together? The value of the stat increase is different for each toon, but always the same total value. It's just split across the three stat modifiers: strength, agility, & tactics..

    "The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken."
    Mod gp is based on dot count (higher dots have more drastic increases), level (increases admit of boosts), and tier (the amount of boosts total). A five dot gold mod will always be more gp than a five dot blue, as there's more upgrades. Can't base it on speed, sometimes other factors are more important.

    "You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats."
    There's no way to tell if gp is based on stats, as both increase at fairly equal levels. Due to this similar increase, it doesn't matter, chicken or egg.

    "None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. "
    Stars increase gp and stats faster and more broadly with stars than gear.. A 5* g11 will have much lower stats than most g11s you'll face, as they'll likely have higher stars. So it'll likely get killed in one or two shots.

    So yes, I read it carefully. Wanted to clarify.

    I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Gear bumps produce stats all by themselves. When I add my last gear item for G6 before going to G7, I get a bump for whatever item I just added. My GP reflects that. However, before I hit the "Update" button to take me to G7, I have no protection. Once I hit the Update button, in addition to the numerous other stat bumps, I also get protection for the first time. I get 0 GP from that massive stat bump or from any of the other gear bumps (which are even larger).

    You are also wrong about the mods in the sense that GP accurately reflects their impact. I thought this went without saying, but let's take the example I provided and extrapolate that out to 6 mods. We both agree that the 2 mod examples I provided give the exact same GP value since they are both 5 dot gold mods. For the sake of the discussion, let's say that a toon has 6 of each value to fill all their mod slots. What you have with the first toon is a bump of:
    90 Speed
    3.6% Health
    4.5% Crit Chance
    2400 Protection

    What you have with the second set of mods (which currently give the EXACT SAME amount of GP) is:

    150 Speed
    12% Health
    12% Crit Chance
    6600 Protection

    That is a difference of:
    60 Speed
    8.4% Health
    7.5% Crit Chance
    4200 Protection

    That is a HUGE discrepancy in stats and could ENTIRELY determine the difference between winning and losing a battle between two otherwise similar units (yes, that's a difference for just one unit, not even a whole squad). GP currently does not account for that AT ALL and you're going to tell me it does a good job of reflecting the stats. Come on!

    Upgrading a gear tier doesn't add stats by itself, it increases the multipliers (str, agi, tac), which is affected by everything else.
    As far as protection, not positive, but I think it's locked out of these stat increases until g7. So it seems to jump up from nowhere. (That is an assumption)
    As far as mods, you're giving them your own opinion of value. If two mods are both 5 dot gold mods, they're equal. How the stats rolled is entirely random, and makes no difference to the gp of the mod. Sliced mods will get slightly lower upgrades per level also, but have the same total gp.

    I'm sorry, but you're just wrong. Next time you're about to bump a gear level, add the last gear item but don't hit upgrade yet. Then open your unit's attributes and write down or screenshot them. Then go hit upgrade and look at the attributes again. You'll notice a bump in every area that quickly flashes by when you hit the upgrade button. I do it all the time, although I'm usually only looking for speed and protection because it is flashing so quickly and hard to track.

    I can't believe you even said what you did about 5 dot gold mods. Yes the stats are all random RNG, but not every 5 dot gold mod is equal in its impact on the unit... you can't possibly think that's true. The example I provided makes that crystal clear. The second mod is way better than the first.

    I'm not wrong tho, I've done this at least four times this week alone, and written down everything while we figure out the gp calibrations here..
    It's increasing the stat multipliers, strength, agility and tactics, which are the factors that do upgrade stats Based on stars added. Try it with a five star, then a six star, with the and gear tier and you'll understand what I'm saying. Speed and protection upgrade the least from these multipliers, and as I said I assume that protection is blocked until g7, but after that it increases like other stats when stars are added.

    As far as mods, yes. Their gp is increased based on the total number and quality of upgrades currently, why would you think it would be better if based solely on single stat increases? 👀 what if you need two or three different things on a toon, like I said with secura? That's an entirely subjective goal

    I'm not sure what point you're making with the stats. Are you saying there is no stat increase with the gear bump, which is why there is no GP bump, or are you saying something else?
  • Liath
    5140 posts Member
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.

    I did. I'll give examples:
    "Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes."
    It does, or at least gp is increased at the same rate, so it reflects it fairly well.

    "For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's broken."
    It is, and you even mention that in your next sentence. Clicking the 'upgrade' button simply unlocks the next gear tier, it ads no extra gp or stats, as well it shouldn't. The gp increases for each piece you add, by a number that seems to be tied to which tier it falls into. Every piece of gear adds gp.

    "Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model."
    yes, adding a new star level adds to stats like health, etc. It increases at the same time as gp, so what's to say it's not tied together? The value of the stat increase is different for each toon, but always the same total value. It's just split across the three stat modifiers: strength, agility, & tactics..

    "The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken."
    Mod gp is based on dot count (higher dots have more drastic increases), level (increases admit of boosts), and tier (the amount of boosts total). A five dot gold mod will always be more gp than a five dot blue, as there's more upgrades. Can't base it on speed, sometimes other factors are more important.

    "You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats."
    There's no way to tell if gp is based on stats, as both increase at fairly equal levels. Due to this similar increase, it doesn't matter, chicken or egg.

    "None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. "
    Stars increase gp and stats faster and more broadly with stars than gear.. A 5* g11 will have much lower stats than most g11s you'll face, as they'll likely have higher stars. So it'll likely get killed in one or two shots.

    So yes, I read it carefully. Wanted to clarify.

    I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Gear bumps produce stats all by themselves. When I add my last gear item for G6 before going to G7, I get a bump for whatever item I just added. My GP reflects that. However, before I hit the "Update" button to take me to G7, I have no protection. Once I hit the Update button, in addition to the numerous other stat bumps, I also get protection for the first time. I get 0 GP from that massive stat bump or from any of the other gear bumps (which are even larger).

    You are also wrong about the mods in the sense that GP accurately reflects their impact. I thought this went without saying, but let's take the example I provided and extrapolate that out to 6 mods. We both agree that the 2 mod examples I provided give the exact same GP value since they are both 5 dot gold mods. For the sake of the discussion, let's say that a toon has 6 of each value to fill all their mod slots. What you have with the first toon is a bump of:
    90 Speed
    3.6% Health
    4.5% Crit Chance
    2400 Protection

    What you have with the second set of mods (which currently give the EXACT SAME amount of GP) is:

    150 Speed
    12% Health
    12% Crit Chance
    6600 Protection

    That is a difference of:
    60 Speed
    8.4% Health
    7.5% Crit Chance
    4200 Protection

    That is a HUGE discrepancy in stats and could ENTIRELY determine the difference between winning and losing a battle between two otherwise similar units (yes, that's a difference for just one unit, not even a whole squad). GP currently does not account for that AT ALL and you're going to tell me it does a good job of reflecting the stats. Come on!

    Upgrading a gear tier doesn't add stats by itself, it increases the multipliers (str, agi, tac), which is affected by everything else.
    As far as protection, not positive, but I think it's locked out of these stat increases until g7. So it seems to jump up from nowhere. (That is an assumption)
    As far as mods, you're giving them your own opinion of value. If two mods are both 5 dot gold mods, they're equal. How the stats rolled is entirely random, and makes no difference to the gp of the mod. Sliced mods will get slightly lower upgrades per level also, but have the same total gp.

    I think he rather says GP value of mods should be based on stats they generate (as should level/gear/stars)

    Yea that seems to be his implication. I'm just pointing out how they work now, which seems perfectly fine to me.
    Plus Sometimes I don't want all out speed on a mod tho lol

    It's not necessarily speed will generate far more GP. It's that mods don't have to have flat GP values, but ones rather derived from their impact all together. After all we're trying to get a universally fair system to assign what gets what GP values. If all the other things will be determined based on their stats impact, there is no reason to exclude mods from that. This also means mods relative GP value to all else will change, I dunno if it will be more or less, probably a bit more.

    Adding varying gp values for mods would be even less reliable tho. Imagine something like secura, if every mod was balanced between speed, cc and potency, she would be much more valuable than one whose mods are all rolled for any one attribute.
    My point is that If it rolls 6 times on one stat, that doesn't necessarily make it better.

    Ok. It's player emphasis and strategy what to use depending on situation though. Player's own thoughtful input should naturally be rewarded for efficacy for the same GP cost. This doesn't change the fact that in order to get a universal system we can all tie everything to stats.

    Would that really solve anything except to shift the advantage to a different group depending on how much they arbitrarily deciced which stat was worth what gp amount?

    That, plus it would add a whole new minigame of trying to take advantage of any weaknesses in the weighting to use mods with the best perceived value : GP ratio. Bleh.
  • Gannon
    1475 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.

    I did. I'll give examples:
    "Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes."
    It does, or at least gp is increased at the same rate, so it reflects it fairly well.

    "For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's broken."
    It is, and you even mention that in your next sentence. Clicking the 'upgrade' button simply unlocks the next gear tier, it ads no extra gp or stats, as well it shouldn't. The gp increases for each piece you add, by a number that seems to be tied to which tier it falls into. Every piece of gear adds gp.

    "Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model."
    yes, adding a new star level adds to stats like health, etc. It increases at the same time as gp, so what's to say it's not tied together? The value of the stat increase is different for each toon, but always the same total value. It's just split across the three stat modifiers: strength, agility, & tactics..

    "The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken."
    Mod gp is based on dot count (higher dots have more drastic increases), level (increases admit of boosts), and tier (the amount of boosts total). A five dot gold mod will always be more gp than a five dot blue, as there's more upgrades. Can't base it on speed, sometimes other factors are more important.

    "You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats."
    There's no way to tell if gp is based on stats, as both increase at fairly equal levels. Due to this similar increase, it doesn't matter, chicken or egg.

    "None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. "
    Stars increase gp and stats faster and more broadly with stars than gear.. A 5* g11 will have much lower stats than most g11s you'll face, as they'll likely have higher stars. So it'll likely get killed in one or two shots.

    So yes, I read it carefully. Wanted to clarify.

    I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Gear bumps produce stats all by themselves. When I add my last gear item for G6 before going to G7, I get a bump for whatever item I just added. My GP reflects that. However, before I hit the "Update" button to take me to G7, I have no protection. Once I hit the Update button, in addition to the numerous other stat bumps, I also get protection for the first time. I get 0 GP from that massive stat bump or from any of the other gear bumps (which are even larger).

    You are also wrong about the mods in the sense that GP accurately reflects their impact. I thought this went without saying, but let's take the example I provided and extrapolate that out to 6 mods. We both agree that the 2 mod examples I provided give the exact same GP value since they are both 5 dot gold mods. For the sake of the discussion, let's say that a toon has 6 of each value to fill all their mod slots. What you have with the first toon is a bump of:
    90 Speed
    3.6% Health
    4.5% Crit Chance
    2400 Protection

    What you have with the second set of mods (which currently give the EXACT SAME amount of GP) is:

    150 Speed
    12% Health
    12% Crit Chance
    6600 Protection

    That is a difference of:
    60 Speed
    8.4% Health
    7.5% Crit Chance
    4200 Protection

    That is a HUGE discrepancy in stats and could ENTIRELY determine the difference between winning and losing a battle between two otherwise similar units (yes, that's a difference for just one unit, not even a whole squad). GP currently does not account for that AT ALL and you're going to tell me it does a good job of reflecting the stats. Come on!

    Upgrading a gear tier doesn't add stats by itself, it increases the multipliers (str, agi, tac), which is affected by everything else.
    As far as protection, not positive, but I think it's locked out of these stat increases until g7. So it seems to jump up from nowhere. (That is an assumption)
    As far as mods, you're giving them your own opinion of value. If two mods are both 5 dot gold mods, they're equal. How the stats rolled is entirely random, and makes no difference to the gp of the mod. Sliced mods will get slightly lower upgrades per level also, but have the same total gp.

    I'm sorry, but you're just wrong. Next time you're about to bump a gear level, add the last gear item but don't hit upgrade yet. Then open your unit's attributes and write down or screenshot them. Then go hit upgrade and look at the attributes again. You'll notice a bump in every area that quickly flashes by when you hit the upgrade button. I do it all the time, although I'm usually only looking for speed and protection because it is flashing so quickly and hard to track.

    I can't believe you even said what you did about 5 dot gold mods. Yes the stats are all random RNG, but not every 5 dot gold mod is equal in its impact on the unit... you can't possibly think that's true. The example I provided makes that crystal clear. The second mod is way better than the first.

    I'm not wrong tho, I've done this at least four times this week alone, and written down everything while we figure out the gp calibrations here..
    It's increasing the stat multipliers, strength, agility and tactics, which are the factors that do upgrade stats Based on stars added. Try it with a five star, then a six star, with the and gear tier and you'll understand what I'm saying. Speed and protection upgrade the least from these multipliers, and as I said I assume that protection is blocked until g7, but after that it increases like other stats when stars are added.

    As far as mods, yes. Their gp is increased based on the total number and quality of upgrades currently, why would you think it would be better if based solely on single stat increases? 👀 what if you need two or three different things on a toon, like I said with secura? That's an entirely subjective goal

    I'm not sure what point you're making with the stats. Are you saying there is no stat increase with the gear bump, which is why there is no GP bump, or are you saying something else?

    I'm saying that when you increase the gear tier, the multipliers may increase slightly. It doesn't add new stats, but those multipliers are the base from which star count increases stats. The gp bump is factored into and tied to the gear level.
    Edit: meant gear level. I.e. The gp is increased per part rather than all at once at the end
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Liath wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.

    I did. I'll give examples:
    "Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes."
    It does, or at least gp is increased at the same rate, so it reflects it fairly well.

    "For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's broken."
    It is, and you even mention that in your next sentence. Clicking the 'upgrade' button simply unlocks the next gear tier, it ads no extra gp or stats, as well it shouldn't. The gp increases for each piece you add, by a number that seems to be tied to which tier it falls into. Every piece of gear adds gp.

    "Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model."
    yes, adding a new star level adds to stats like health, etc. It increases at the same time as gp, so what's to say it's not tied together? The value of the stat increase is different for each toon, but always the same total value. It's just split across the three stat modifiers: strength, agility, & tactics..

    "The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken."
    Mod gp is based on dot count (higher dots have more drastic increases), level (increases admit of boosts), and tier (the amount of boosts total). A five dot gold mod will always be more gp than a five dot blue, as there's more upgrades. Can't base it on speed, sometimes other factors are more important.

    "You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats."
    There's no way to tell if gp is based on stats, as both increase at fairly equal levels. Due to this similar increase, it doesn't matter, chicken or egg.

    "None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. "
    Stars increase gp and stats faster and more broadly with stars than gear.. A 5* g11 will have much lower stats than most g11s you'll face, as they'll likely have higher stars. So it'll likely get killed in one or two shots.

    So yes, I read it carefully. Wanted to clarify.

    I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Gear bumps produce stats all by themselves. When I add my last gear item for G6 before going to G7, I get a bump for whatever item I just added. My GP reflects that. However, before I hit the "Update" button to take me to G7, I have no protection. Once I hit the Update button, in addition to the numerous other stat bumps, I also get protection for the first time. I get 0 GP from that massive stat bump or from any of the other gear bumps (which are even larger).

    You are also wrong about the mods in the sense that GP accurately reflects their impact. I thought this went without saying, but let's take the example I provided and extrapolate that out to 6 mods. We both agree that the 2 mod examples I provided give the exact same GP value since they are both 5 dot gold mods. For the sake of the discussion, let's say that a toon has 6 of each value to fill all their mod slots. What you have with the first toon is a bump of:
    90 Speed
    3.6% Health
    4.5% Crit Chance
    2400 Protection

    What you have with the second set of mods (which currently give the EXACT SAME amount of GP) is:

    150 Speed
    12% Health
    12% Crit Chance
    6600 Protection

    That is a difference of:
    60 Speed
    8.4% Health
    7.5% Crit Chance
    4200 Protection

    That is a HUGE discrepancy in stats and could ENTIRELY determine the difference between winning and losing a battle between two otherwise similar units (yes, that's a difference for just one unit, not even a whole squad). GP currently does not account for that AT ALL and you're going to tell me it does a good job of reflecting the stats. Come on!

    Upgrading a gear tier doesn't add stats by itself, it increases the multipliers (str, agi, tac), which is affected by everything else.
    As far as protection, not positive, but I think it's locked out of these stat increases until g7. So it seems to jump up from nowhere. (That is an assumption)
    As far as mods, you're giving them your own opinion of value. If two mods are both 5 dot gold mods, they're equal. How the stats rolled is entirely random, and makes no difference to the gp of the mod. Sliced mods will get slightly lower upgrades per level also, but have the same total gp.

    I think he rather says GP value of mods should be based on stats they generate (as should level/gear/stars)

    Yea that seems to be his implication. I'm just pointing out how they work now, which seems perfectly fine to me.
    Plus Sometimes I don't want all out speed on a mod tho lol

    It's not necessarily speed will generate far more GP. It's that mods don't have to have flat GP values, but ones rather derived from their impact all together. After all we're trying to get a universally fair system to assign what gets what GP values. If all the other things will be determined based on their stats impact, there is no reason to exclude mods from that. This also means mods relative GP value to all else will change, I dunno if it will be more or less, probably a bit more.

    Adding varying gp values for mods would be even less reliable tho. Imagine something like secura, if every mod was balanced between speed, cc and potency, she would be much more valuable than one whose mods are all rolled for any one attribute.
    My point is that If it rolls 6 times on one stat, that doesn't necessarily make it better.

    Ok. It's player emphasis and strategy what to use depending on situation though. Player's own thoughtful input should naturally be rewarded for efficacy for the same GP cost. This doesn't change the fact that in order to get a universal system we can all tie everything to stats.

    Would that really solve anything except to shift the advantage to a different group depending on how much they arbitrarily deciced which stat was worth what gp amount?

    That, plus it would add a whole new minigame of trying to take advantage of any weaknesses in the weighting to use mods with the best perceived value : GP ratio. Bleh.

    Heh I hope you are having fun with +-30 g12 disrepancies that are occuring non-stop. My current match, advantage is on me, will that make it more fun to massacre him? This is what I would call pre-determined match, it's over before it begins.

    k4sqyd74r196.png
  • rascaedus wrote: »
    GP is used to match guilds in territory wars, match players in arena shards, and now matches players through the grand arena. But GP is a misnomer and should be adjusted.

    I have been playing since its release. I found the game by accident because my son was just beginning to get into SW, and I was looking around the app store for SW content. I was hooked from the first battle. I remember the days when Jedi Knight Anakin and Ahsoka were the best toons to use in the arena.

    Fast forward a couple years and I have a healthy 3.2m GP. Awesome, right? No, because more than half of my team is useless against the new toons. My G11 Jedi from 2 years ago get obliterated by everyone ranked 300 or higher in the arena and cannot get passed the 5th wave in TBs.

    The point is that when matched, especially in the grand arena, my competition (of a similar GP) has a much deeper squad because that player's GP is comprised mostly of obsolete toons.

    I am in no way complaining (because if I was, it would be a multi page rant regarding the lack of a Jedi Luke, Han/Chewy Millenium Falcon, and a Luke X-wing), just trying to get my point across. I love the game too much. I think GP should be weighted towards newer characters or a significant evolution of the original characters needs to occur.

    Old hats, I'm wondering what you think. Newer players need to get off my **** digital lawn.

    I could not agree more..i too started day 1 and i have so many useless characters that are 7* g10 which is fine because at the beginning we were figuring it out but alot of these newer whales have half the characters i do active and has the same gp as i do because they are all maxed out..and it does make a huge difference..that said i do love the game and hope to play for many more years
  • Liath
    5140 posts Member
    No_Try wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.

    I did. I'll give examples:
    "Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes."
    It does, or at least gp is increased at the same rate, so it reflects it fairly well.

    "For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's broken."
    It is, and you even mention that in your next sentence. Clicking the 'upgrade' button simply unlocks the next gear tier, it ads no extra gp or stats, as well it shouldn't. The gp increases for each piece you add, by a number that seems to be tied to which tier it falls into. Every piece of gear adds gp.

    "Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model."
    yes, adding a new star level adds to stats like health, etc. It increases at the same time as gp, so what's to say it's not tied together? The value of the stat increase is different for each toon, but always the same total value. It's just split across the three stat modifiers: strength, agility, & tactics..

    "The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken."
    Mod gp is based on dot count (higher dots have more drastic increases), level (increases admit of boosts), and tier (the amount of boosts total). A five dot gold mod will always be more gp than a five dot blue, as there's more upgrades. Can't base it on speed, sometimes other factors are more important.

    "You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats."
    There's no way to tell if gp is based on stats, as both increase at fairly equal levels. Due to this similar increase, it doesn't matter, chicken or egg.

    "None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. "
    Stars increase gp and stats faster and more broadly with stars than gear.. A 5* g11 will have much lower stats than most g11s you'll face, as they'll likely have higher stars. So it'll likely get killed in one or two shots.

    So yes, I read it carefully. Wanted to clarify.

    I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Gear bumps produce stats all by themselves. When I add my last gear item for G6 before going to G7, I get a bump for whatever item I just added. My GP reflects that. However, before I hit the "Update" button to take me to G7, I have no protection. Once I hit the Update button, in addition to the numerous other stat bumps, I also get protection for the first time. I get 0 GP from that massive stat bump or from any of the other gear bumps (which are even larger).

    You are also wrong about the mods in the sense that GP accurately reflects their impact. I thought this went without saying, but let's take the example I provided and extrapolate that out to 6 mods. We both agree that the 2 mod examples I provided give the exact same GP value since they are both 5 dot gold mods. For the sake of the discussion, let's say that a toon has 6 of each value to fill all their mod slots. What you have with the first toon is a bump of:
    90 Speed
    3.6% Health
    4.5% Crit Chance
    2400 Protection

    What you have with the second set of mods (which currently give the EXACT SAME amount of GP) is:

    150 Speed
    12% Health
    12% Crit Chance
    6600 Protection

    That is a difference of:
    60 Speed
    8.4% Health
    7.5% Crit Chance
    4200 Protection

    That is a HUGE discrepancy in stats and could ENTIRELY determine the difference between winning and losing a battle between two otherwise similar units (yes, that's a difference for just one unit, not even a whole squad). GP currently does not account for that AT ALL and you're going to tell me it does a good job of reflecting the stats. Come on!

    Upgrading a gear tier doesn't add stats by itself, it increases the multipliers (str, agi, tac), which is affected by everything else.
    As far as protection, not positive, but I think it's locked out of these stat increases until g7. So it seems to jump up from nowhere. (That is an assumption)
    As far as mods, you're giving them your own opinion of value. If two mods are both 5 dot gold mods, they're equal. How the stats rolled is entirely random, and makes no difference to the gp of the mod. Sliced mods will get slightly lower upgrades per level also, but have the same total gp.

    I think he rather says GP value of mods should be based on stats they generate (as should level/gear/stars)

    Yea that seems to be his implication. I'm just pointing out how they work now, which seems perfectly fine to me.
    Plus Sometimes I don't want all out speed on a mod tho lol

    It's not necessarily speed will generate far more GP. It's that mods don't have to have flat GP values, but ones rather derived from their impact all together. After all we're trying to get a universally fair system to assign what gets what GP values. If all the other things will be determined based on their stats impact, there is no reason to exclude mods from that. This also means mods relative GP value to all else will change, I dunno if it will be more or less, probably a bit more.

    Adding varying gp values for mods would be even less reliable tho. Imagine something like secura, if every mod was balanced between speed, cc and potency, she would be much more valuable than one whose mods are all rolled for any one attribute.
    My point is that If it rolls 6 times on one stat, that doesn't necessarily make it better.

    Ok. It's player emphasis and strategy what to use depending on situation though. Player's own thoughtful input should naturally be rewarded for efficacy for the same GP cost. This doesn't change the fact that in order to get a universal system we can all tie everything to stats.

    Would that really solve anything except to shift the advantage to a different group depending on how much they arbitrarily deciced which stat was worth what gp amount?

    That, plus it would add a whole new minigame of trying to take advantage of any weaknesses in the weighting to use mods with the best perceived value : GP ratio. Bleh.

    Heh I hope you are having fun with +-30 g12 disrepancies that are occuring non-stop.

    I'm not having too much fun because I am not a fan of PVP in general. But I certainly enjoy the current system better than I would enjoy a system that matched clone rosters such that my choices in the game would have no impact on my ability to succeed.

    In my experience so far, the biggest difference has not been number of g12, it's been quality of mods. Some people just don't bother with or understand mods, and I have no problem with those people facing unwinnable matches as a result.
  • Liath wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.

    I did. I'll give examples:
    "Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes."
    It does, or at least gp is increased at the same rate, so it reflects it fairly well.

    "For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's broken."
    It is, and you even mention that in your next sentence. Clicking the 'upgrade' button simply unlocks the next gear tier, it ads no extra gp or stats, as well it shouldn't. The gp increases for each piece you add, by a number that seems to be tied to which tier it falls into. Every piece of gear adds gp.

    "Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model."
    yes, adding a new star level adds to stats like health, etc. It increases at the same time as gp, so what's to say it's not tied together? The value of the stat increase is different for each toon, but always the same total value. It's just split across the three stat modifiers: strength, agility, & tactics..

    "The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken."
    Mod gp is based on dot count (higher dots have more drastic increases), level (increases admit of boosts), and tier (the amount of boosts total). A five dot gold mod will always be more gp than a five dot blue, as there's more upgrades. Can't base it on speed, sometimes other factors are more important.

    "You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats."
    There's no way to tell if gp is based on stats, as both increase at fairly equal levels. Due to this similar increase, it doesn't matter, chicken or egg.

    "None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. "
    Stars increase gp and stats faster and more broadly with stars than gear.. A 5* g11 will have much lower stats than most g11s you'll face, as they'll likely have higher stars. So it'll likely get killed in one or two shots.

    So yes, I read it carefully. Wanted to clarify.

    I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Gear bumps produce stats all by themselves. When I add my last gear item for G6 before going to G7, I get a bump for whatever item I just added. My GP reflects that. However, before I hit the "Update" button to take me to G7, I have no protection. Once I hit the Update button, in addition to the numerous other stat bumps, I also get protection for the first time. I get 0 GP from that massive stat bump or from any of the other gear bumps (which are even larger).

    You are also wrong about the mods in the sense that GP accurately reflects their impact. I thought this went without saying, but let's take the example I provided and extrapolate that out to 6 mods. We both agree that the 2 mod examples I provided give the exact same GP value since they are both 5 dot gold mods. For the sake of the discussion, let's say that a toon has 6 of each value to fill all their mod slots. What you have with the first toon is a bump of:
    90 Speed
    3.6% Health
    4.5% Crit Chance
    2400 Protection

    What you have with the second set of mods (which currently give the EXACT SAME amount of GP) is:

    150 Speed
    12% Health
    12% Crit Chance
    6600 Protection

    That is a difference of:
    60 Speed
    8.4% Health
    7.5% Crit Chance
    4200 Protection

    That is a HUGE discrepancy in stats and could ENTIRELY determine the difference between winning and losing a battle between two otherwise similar units (yes, that's a difference for just one unit, not even a whole squad). GP currently does not account for that AT ALL and you're going to tell me it does a good job of reflecting the stats. Come on!

    Upgrading a gear tier doesn't add stats by itself, it increases the multipliers (str, agi, tac), which is affected by everything else.
    As far as protection, not positive, but I think it's locked out of these stat increases until g7. So it seems to jump up from nowhere. (That is an assumption)
    As far as mods, you're giving them your own opinion of value. If two mods are both 5 dot gold mods, they're equal. How the stats rolled is entirely random, and makes no difference to the gp of the mod. Sliced mods will get slightly lower upgrades per level also, but have the same total gp.

    I think he rather says GP value of mods should be based on stats they generate (as should level/gear/stars)

    Yea that seems to be his implication. I'm just pointing out how they work now, which seems perfectly fine to me.
    Plus Sometimes I don't want all out speed on a mod tho lol

    It's not necessarily speed will generate far more GP. It's that mods don't have to have flat GP values, but ones rather derived from their impact all together. After all we're trying to get a universally fair system to assign what gets what GP values. If all the other things will be determined based on their stats impact, there is no reason to exclude mods from that. This also means mods relative GP value to all else will change, I dunno if it will be more or less, probably a bit more.

    Adding varying gp values for mods would be even less reliable tho. Imagine something like secura, if every mod was balanced between speed, cc and potency, she would be much more valuable than one whose mods are all rolled for any one attribute.
    My point is that If it rolls 6 times on one stat, that doesn't necessarily make it better.

    Ok. It's player emphasis and strategy what to use depending on situation though. Player's own thoughtful input should naturally be rewarded for efficacy for the same GP cost. This doesn't change the fact that in order to get a universal system we can all tie everything to stats.

    Would that really solve anything except to shift the advantage to a different group depending on how much they arbitrarily deciced which stat was worth what gp amount?

    That, plus it would add a whole new minigame of trying to take advantage of any weaknesses in the weighting to use mods with the best perceived value : GP ratio. Bleh.

    Heh I hope you are having fun with +-30 g12 disrepancies that are occuring non-stop.

    I'm not having too much fun because I am not a fan of PVP in general. But I certainly enjoy the current system better than I would enjoy a system that matched clone rosters such that my choices in the game would have no impact on my ability to succeed.

    In my experience so far, the biggest difference has not been number of g12, it's been quality of mods. Some people just don't bother with or understand mods, and I have no problem with those people facing unwinnable matches as a result.

    Why would a universal stat dependant determined GP system result in matching clone rosters?
  • Liath
    5140 posts Member
    No_Try wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.

    I did. I'll give examples:
    "Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes."
    It does, or at least gp is increased at the same rate, so it reflects it fairly well.

    "For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's broken."
    It is, and you even mention that in your next sentence. Clicking the 'upgrade' button simply unlocks the next gear tier, it ads no extra gp or stats, as well it shouldn't. The gp increases for each piece you add, by a number that seems to be tied to which tier it falls into. Every piece of gear adds gp.

    "Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model."
    yes, adding a new star level adds to stats like health, etc. It increases at the same time as gp, so what's to say it's not tied together? The value of the stat increase is different for each toon, but always the same total value. It's just split across the three stat modifiers: strength, agility, & tactics..

    "The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken."
    Mod gp is based on dot count (higher dots have more drastic increases), level (increases admit of boosts), and tier (the amount of boosts total). A five dot gold mod will always be more gp than a five dot blue, as there's more upgrades. Can't base it on speed, sometimes other factors are more important.

    "You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats."
    There's no way to tell if gp is based on stats, as both increase at fairly equal levels. Due to this similar increase, it doesn't matter, chicken or egg.

    "None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. "
    Stars increase gp and stats faster and more broadly with stars than gear.. A 5* g11 will have much lower stats than most g11s you'll face, as they'll likely have higher stars. So it'll likely get killed in one or two shots.

    So yes, I read it carefully. Wanted to clarify.

    I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Gear bumps produce stats all by themselves. When I add my last gear item for G6 before going to G7, I get a bump for whatever item I just added. My GP reflects that. However, before I hit the "Update" button to take me to G7, I have no protection. Once I hit the Update button, in addition to the numerous other stat bumps, I also get protection for the first time. I get 0 GP from that massive stat bump or from any of the other gear bumps (which are even larger).

    You are also wrong about the mods in the sense that GP accurately reflects their impact. I thought this went without saying, but let's take the example I provided and extrapolate that out to 6 mods. We both agree that the 2 mod examples I provided give the exact same GP value since they are both 5 dot gold mods. For the sake of the discussion, let's say that a toon has 6 of each value to fill all their mod slots. What you have with the first toon is a bump of:
    90 Speed
    3.6% Health
    4.5% Crit Chance
    2400 Protection

    What you have with the second set of mods (which currently give the EXACT SAME amount of GP) is:

    150 Speed
    12% Health
    12% Crit Chance
    6600 Protection

    That is a difference of:
    60 Speed
    8.4% Health
    7.5% Crit Chance
    4200 Protection

    That is a HUGE discrepancy in stats and could ENTIRELY determine the difference between winning and losing a battle between two otherwise similar units (yes, that's a difference for just one unit, not even a whole squad). GP currently does not account for that AT ALL and you're going to tell me it does a good job of reflecting the stats. Come on!

    Upgrading a gear tier doesn't add stats by itself, it increases the multipliers (str, agi, tac), which is affected by everything else.
    As far as protection, not positive, but I think it's locked out of these stat increases until g7. So it seems to jump up from nowhere. (That is an assumption)
    As far as mods, you're giving them your own opinion of value. If two mods are both 5 dot gold mods, they're equal. How the stats rolled is entirely random, and makes no difference to the gp of the mod. Sliced mods will get slightly lower upgrades per level also, but have the same total gp.

    I think he rather says GP value of mods should be based on stats they generate (as should level/gear/stars)

    Yea that seems to be his implication. I'm just pointing out how they work now, which seems perfectly fine to me.
    Plus Sometimes I don't want all out speed on a mod tho lol

    It's not necessarily speed will generate far more GP. It's that mods don't have to have flat GP values, but ones rather derived from their impact all together. After all we're trying to get a universally fair system to assign what gets what GP values. If all the other things will be determined based on their stats impact, there is no reason to exclude mods from that. This also means mods relative GP value to all else will change, I dunno if it will be more or less, probably a bit more.

    Adding varying gp values for mods would be even less reliable tho. Imagine something like secura, if every mod was balanced between speed, cc and potency, she would be much more valuable than one whose mods are all rolled for any one attribute.
    My point is that If it rolls 6 times on one stat, that doesn't necessarily make it better.

    Ok. It's player emphasis and strategy what to use depending on situation though. Player's own thoughtful input should naturally be rewarded for efficacy for the same GP cost. This doesn't change the fact that in order to get a universal system we can all tie everything to stats.

    Would that really solve anything except to shift the advantage to a different group depending on how much they arbitrarily deciced which stat was worth what gp amount?

    That, plus it would add a whole new minigame of trying to take advantage of any weaknesses in the weighting to use mods with the best perceived value : GP ratio. Bleh.

    Heh I hope you are having fun with +-30 g12 disrepancies that are occuring non-stop.

    I'm not having too much fun because I am not a fan of PVP in general. But I certainly enjoy the current system better than I would enjoy a system that matched clone rosters such that my choices in the game would have no impact on my ability to succeed.

    In my experience so far, the biggest difference has not been number of g12, it's been quality of mods. Some people just don't bother with or understand mods, and I have no problem with those people facing unwinnable matches as a result.

    Why would a universal stat dependant determined GP system result in matching clone rosters?

    It wouldn't, it would just be a lot of development time for something I doubt would work out that well.

    The comment about matching clone rosters arises from the myriad posts around here about how people should be matched on every metric imaginable down to number of +X speed mods and whether or not you have Traya/Revan.
  • Gannon
    1475 posts Member
    edited December 2018

    Yea those comments get annoying, it's always the same thing. It's usually people who choose to farm certain things that aren't really helpful in GA, or don't have certain toons and can't be bothered to build a counter team to beat em.
  • GodlikeNay wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    GodlikeNay wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »

    Um, that's not right. Much of your assessment isn't accurate. Gp is a measure of completion of a toon, but it can be seen mirrored on that toons stats, I have dozens of pics above that show this.

    Abilities add gp for each tier of completion.

    Mods add gp, based on dot count and tier.

    Gear adds specific stats, depending on the part (ex. +50 physical damage), but it also adds gp for the part. based on which gear tier it falls into, from what I can tell.

    Stars play the biggest role in gp tho, but add the most to stats at the same time. (Some stats are increased almost entirely by gear, such as speed, protection, & armor). This is why a 4* gear 11 has weaker stats than a 7* gear 6 toon.

    So there's not really a problem with gp at all, in my opinion. It measures how complete a toon is, and that completion seems to align fairly accurately with their stats, from my observations.
    (I'm sure there's always exceptions)

    As far as your #2, they can't isolate toons based on how difficult some people find them.
    I have at least 3 teams that can kill any meta palp line variant, mostly on auto.. That doesn't mean others don't struggle with em.

    I don't think you read my post close enough. Nothing you pointed out indicates what I said is inaccurate. I didn't go into the same level of detail that you did for current GP calculation, but everything you said reinforces what I said. The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken. Gear level bumps produce 0 GP = broken. You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats. It would be way more accurate and consistent. None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. Base it on the stats, and none of that matters and the in-game impact is accurately reflected.

    I did. I'll give examples:
    "Anyways, as I see it, the main issue with #1 is that GP doesn't reflect character attributes."
    It does, or at least gp is increased at the same rate, so it reflects it fairly well.

    "For example, when a toon moves from G6 to G7, there is a huge impact to that toon getting protection, but that bump is not reflected in the GP at all. That's broken. Every new gear level comes with massive stat bumps, but those stat changes produce exactly 0 GP. That's broken."
    It is, and you even mention that in your next sentence. Clicking the 'upgrade' button simply unlocks the next gear tier, it ads no extra gp or stats, as well it shouldn't. The gp increases for each piece you add, by a number that seems to be tied to which tier it falls into. Every piece of gear adds gp.

    "Same thing should be done for leveling up toons to new star levels. The real impact for the level ups is the stats, so base the GP on the stats and not some flat value model."
    yes, adding a new star level adds to stats like health, etc. It increases at the same time as gp, so what's to say it's not tied together? The value of the stat increase is different for each toon, but always the same total value. It's just split across the three stat modifiers: strength, agility, & tactics..

    "The 2 mod examples I have produce same GP = broken."
    Mod gp is based on dot count (higher dots have more drastic increases), level (increases admit of boosts), and tier (the amount of boosts total). A five dot gold mod will always be more gp than a five dot blue, as there's more upgrades. Can't base it on speed, sometimes other factors are more important.

    "You agree that GP is not currently based on character stats, but rather other formulas that attempt to indicate power, when what actually indicates power (aside from meta) is the stats... so they should just calculate GP from the stats."
    There's no way to tell if gp is based on stats, as both increase at fairly equal levels. Due to this similar increase, it doesn't matter, chicken or egg.

    "None of this why is my 6 * G7 weaker than my 5 * G11 or whatever. "
    Stars increase gp and stats faster and more broadly with stars than gear.. A 5* g11 will have much lower stats than most g11s you'll face, as they'll likely have higher stars. So it'll likely get killed in one or two shots.

    So yes, I read it carefully. Wanted to clarify.

    I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Gear bumps produce stats all by themselves. When I add my last gear item for G6 before going to G7, I get a bump for whatever item I just added. My GP reflects that. However, before I hit the "Update" button to take me to G7, I have no protection. Once I hit the Update button, in addition to the numerous other stat bumps, I also get protection for the first time. I get 0 GP from that massive stat bump or from any of the other gear bumps (which are even larger).

    You are also wrong about the mods in the sense that GP accurately reflects their impact. I thought this went without saying, but let's take the example I provided and extrapolate that out to 6 mods. We both agree that the 2 mod examples I provided give the exact same GP value since they are both 5 dot gold mods. For the sake of the discussion, let's say that a toon has 6 of each value to fill all their mod slots. What you have with the first toon is a bump of:
    90 Speed
    3.6% Health
    4.5% Crit Chance
    2400 Protection

    What you have with the second set of mods (which currently give the EXACT SAME amount of GP) is:

    150 Speed
    12% Health
    12% Crit Chance
    6600 Protection

    That is a difference of:
    60 Speed
    8.4% Health
    7.5% Crit Chance
    4200 Protection

    That is a HUGE discrepancy in stats and could ENTIRELY determine the difference between winning and losing a battle between two otherwise similar units (yes, that's a difference for just one unit, not even a whole squad). GP currently does not account for that AT ALL and you're going to tell me it does a good job of reflecting the stats. Come on!

    Upgrading a gear tier doesn't add stats by itself, it increases the multipliers (str, agi, tac), which is affected by everything else.
    As far as protection, not positive, but I think it's locked out of these stat increases until g7. So it seems to jump up from nowhere. (That is an assumption)
    As far as mods, you're giving them your own opinion of value. If two mods are both 5 dot gold mods, they're equal. How the stats rolled is entirely random, and makes no difference to the gp of the mod. Sliced mods will get slightly lower upgrades per level also, but have the same total gp.

    I'm sorry, but you're just wrong. Next time you're about to bump a gear level, add the last gear item but don't hit upgrade yet. Then open your unit's attributes and write down or screenshot them. Then go hit upgrade and look at the attributes again. You'll notice a bump in every area that quickly flashes by when you hit the upgrade button. I do it all the time, although I'm usually only looking for speed and protection because it is flashing so quickly and hard to track.

    I can't believe you even said what you did about 5 dot gold mods. Yes the stats are all random RNG, but not every 5 dot gold mod is equal in its impact on the unit... you can't possibly think that's true. The example I provided makes that crystal clear. The second mod is way better than the first.

    The example you listed was unrealistic and I pointed that out. You just ignored it.

    OMG, it was just an example to show how massive the discrepancy of mods can be for the same kind of mod. Those values I gave are not likely, but I do believe they fall within what is possible for mods, both on the high and the low side of things.

    No they don't. That is my point. The mod with higher speed would have all the other stats lower due to speed rolling not the other stats. The only way you get two mods like the ones you're comparing is if you got an extra roll or two and rolled one 6 times. Which you cannot do.
  • This is one of my favorite ideas I’ve seen thus far. Alternate breadth versus depth in GA to encourage a balance. @Tanzos
    Tanzos wrote: »
    Honestly, I'd like to see 3 Grand Arenas in a row where we have to set 14 defensive squads and 2 ships squads. Then we'll see who has the deeper roster.

    Then 3 GA in a row where we set 6 on 6 or whatever like it is now and see who has the better top of their roster. That to me seems fair.

    THAT is what should be done. GP matched exactly, but full rosters used sometimes, top end of rosters used the other.
    Member of ‘Thugs in White Armor’
  • This is one of my favorite ideas I’ve seen thus far. Alternate breadth versus depth in GA to encourage a balance. @Tanzos
    Tanzos wrote: »
    Honestly, I'd like to see 3 Grand Arenas in a row where we have to set 14 defensive squads and 2 ships squads. Then we'll see who has the deeper roster.

    Then 3 GA in a row where we set 6 on 6 or whatever like it is now and see who has the better top of their roster. That to me seems fair.

    THAT is what should be done. GP matched exactly, but full rosters used sometimes, top end of rosters used the other.

    I'd be good with that. Though alternating would be preferable to 3 in a row one way. Unless of course they mean the 3 rounds.

    Though they are putting variety in. We haven't had any two gas the same.
  • Bubblechomp
    784 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    This is one of my favorite ideas I’ve seen thus far. Alternate breadth versus depth in GA to encourage a balance. @Tanzos
    Tanzos wrote: »
    Honestly, I'd like to see 3 Grand Arenas in a row where we have to set 14 defensive squads and 2 ships squads. Then we'll see who has the deeper roster.

    Then 3 GA in a row where we set 6 on 6 or whatever like it is now and see who has the better top of their roster. That to me seems fair.

    THAT is what should be done. GP matched exactly, but full rosters used sometimes, top end of rosters used the other.

    I'd be good with that. Though alternating would be preferable to 3 in a row one way. Unless of course they mean the 3 rounds.

    Though they are putting variety in. We haven't had any two gas the same.

    I think he meant the 3 rounds.

    Rotate Breadth, Depth, then 3v3.
    Member of ‘Thugs in White Armor’
  • Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    The problem with the current GA system is that CG wants us to be "collectors" because they make more money that way, but GA calculating GP to create opponents punishes collectors for having more characters unlocked, 7 star, geared up, etc., vs the person who has like 30 gear 12 characters. I know because I faced someone like that in my last GA. He had twice as many gear 12 characters as me, more zetas, but half his "roster" was level 1 characters that weren't even touched.

    I don't think CG wants you to collect all characters and gear them only to g7. They want you to go big and have a g12 7 star full roster. If you had that you'd be able to win ga.

    If you collect and hear everything to g7 and can't use it, that's on you.

    There is plenty of incentive to get several teams to g12 that this is not a surprise. For hstr, you need g12 teams to do well and most of those teams are also good in ga. The chewie event and 3PO events required higher gear both on teams that were good in ga. Tb combat has required higher geared teams to complete on the last tier for over a year now. Tw has req good teams (maxed out is better) for nearly a year.

    So the writing has been on the wall that to do well endgame, you need a pretty deep roster of g12 teams. If you ignored all that and collected and just geared everything to g7 that's on you.

    Not sure where I said anything about "gear 7". I only stated 7 star characters. And of course CG wants us to collect and max out every character. That still makes someone a collector. Lastly, just because you have a fully maxed roster doesn't mean you have any better of a chance to win GA. Why? Because you're facing other players with a fully maxed roster too. I still did 2-1 in each GA so I was able to win. I just had one opponent that I messed up my attacks with and the other I just couldn't get past a couple of his teams because they were too strong for me (in the 3v3 version). 4-2 is decent enough I'd say.

    Again, GA has nothing to do with "end game" because it is setup to accommodate all levels of player. Having Gear 12 characters or not is only an issue when you are a collector vs someone who is focused on only certain teams. TB is another incentive to increase your roster, especially toons you don't use because they will end up being needed in platoons. But, that's got nothing to do with the discussion here. (I've specifically 7*'d characters so that we can fill platoons in TB and that's all they are there for.)

    Being a super focused player on only certain teams gives you a better chance in GA because it is solely based on "GP". There should be other parameters that come into account for matchmaking, like zeta count, gear 12 count, and so on.

    I just don't get why, as you did in your response, there is such a quick response to always say, "That's your fault dude!" to a player who has a challenge, or can't accomplish something in this game. Yes, I play the way I play, I collect how I want to collect. I do my best to stay on target. But just because I bring up an issue and provide an alternate point of view doesn't mean there's a need to throw in the "well you aren't playing right, that's your fault!" stuff. Especially when you misread what I stated. :wink:

    I was simply stating that ga does not discourage you to gear characters. It may discourage gearing to a certain level characters that aren't used a lot but you still need to gear characters. So I don't believe it goes against the devs wanting you to gear characters.

    And unless you are an ultra kracken, you can't get g12 on every character. As much as the devs would love everyone to spend that much, it doesn't happen. I used that as an example of the goal post the devs want not an ideal ga roster. Since we are not at maxed out rosters, we all make choices about what to gear up.

    Some choose to be competitive and some choose to be collectors. I haven't said that either choice is wrong. One does lead to more ga wins though. But if ga wins isn't important to you then do your thing of course. But don't complain on the forums about the consequences of your choices.

    Because ultimately, the choices you make in building your roster determine your likelihood of winning ga far more than the matchmaking does.

    Where are those collectors? I've yet to see anyone who says "hey dude, I just like collecting, I don't care about being competetive". You seem to be inflating a fringe case to a norm and make an argument based on that. When you check my roster and see that I have most toons collected, do you think it's because I'm a collector?

    I've seen many argue that the reason they aren't competitive is because their play style is more collector than competitive. And yes you get the shards for a lot of characters by the time you've played for 2 or 3 years just through osmosis.

    I think the real difference comes down to whether you are willing to use regular or cantina energy to farm shards of characters that aren't terribly useful. Competitive players likely pass on that. Players that like to collect would likely still farm them. And of course these are the extremes on a bell curve and the vast majority of players fall somewhere in the middle.

    Cantina energy for example, I'm sure almost everyone is farming something out of there unless you have the shop farmed out. But someone who has a goal to unlock and 7 star every character may use crystals to refresh even if the character isn't all that useful. While a competitive minded player would likely either skip the farm although or at the very least only use the energy they can't save towards it and hoard the crystals for the next character that will make their roster more competitive.

    You can call it casual vs competitive if you want but it changes little. Those that build rosters for winning pvp game modes do better than those that don't.

    Ok, I understand what you are saying now. I'm certainly a competetive player and I also farm the hell out of every toon avaliable on maps. I think in a few months my farmability back catalogue will expire where I'll have to wait for new releases. Though in CGs recent mindset which is driven by panic farms for powerful toons I'm advantegous for doing it like this, not less competetive for certain. Only thing that **** on my competetiveness is the current matchmaking system.

    I'm the same way, but I can say that for the first time since starting, I'm intentionally not adding new stars or gear to toons that aren't either TW/ GA viable, or requirements for events (ewoks). Everything else, although some can be useful, will just inflate my gp without adding much use, so it can wait.
    That's not really a good thing, is it?

    This.

    And this is the source of the mismatching issues people are having when matching total GP from players historical choices.

    And it doesnt even need to be taken to extremes. "focused and narrow" rosters vs "broader and G7'd" rosters are generating matches where its a not a contest at all.

    The way ahead to gain an advantage. What you (and no doubt many others) are doing. Intentionally not gear and level your toons.

    I agree this is highly unhealthy for the game. I doubt the intention of the developers is to stop people investing in their characters.
  • Hence the Paper NS Zombie adjustment:
    At its core, this strategy primarily breaks a core tenant/rule of the game - investing more deeply in a character should always be better in terms of gameplay outcomes; more health, more damage, more functionality, etc. This is a game about strategic resource management and you should be rewarded for strategically investing in a character. People who did this investment were then punished, because there is no way to “level down” a character. This doesn’t always perfectly hold up, but we do our best to hold to the spirit of that core pillar as much as we possibly can.
    Member of ‘Thugs in White Armor’

  • I'd be good with that. Though alternating would be preferable to 3 in a row one way. Unless of course they mean the 3 rounds.

    Though they are putting variety in. We haven't had any two gas the same.

    Yes that's what I meant. 3 rounds, I realize that's obvious because they don't switch between matchups in the same GA. Alternating each "Grand Arena" to include different roster depth advantages is what they should do on top of the interesting squad setups.
  • When GA was still just speculation, I had hoped it was like TW or raids and once a toon was used, it would be unavailable for the rest of the 3 round event.. So ppl would be forced to use non meta teams, and every junk toon could make a huge impact across the three rounds. Lol
  • Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    The problem with the current GA system is that CG wants us to be "collectors" because they make more money that way, but GA calculating GP to create opponents punishes collectors for having more characters unlocked, 7 star, geared up, etc., vs the person who has like 30 gear 12 characters. I know because I faced someone like that in my last GA. He had twice as many gear 12 characters as me, more zetas, but half his "roster" was level 1 characters that weren't even touched.

    I don't think CG wants you to collect all characters and gear them only to g7. They want you to go big and have a g12 7 star full roster. If you had that you'd be able to win ga.

    If you collect and hear everything to g7 and can't use it, that's on you.

    There is plenty of incentive to get several teams to g12 that this is not a surprise. For hstr, you need g12 teams to do well and most of those teams are also good in ga. The chewie event and 3PO events required higher gear both on teams that were good in ga. Tb combat has required higher geared teams to complete on the last tier for over a year now. Tw has req good teams (maxed out is better) for nearly a year.

    So the writing has been on the wall that to do well endgame, you need a pretty deep roster of g12 teams. If you ignored all that and collected and just geared everything to g7 that's on you.

    Not sure where I said anything about "gear 7". I only stated 7 star characters. And of course CG wants us to collect and max out every character. That still makes someone a collector. Lastly, just because you have a fully maxed roster doesn't mean you have any better of a chance to win GA. Why? Because you're facing other players with a fully maxed roster too. I still did 2-1 in each GA so I was able to win. I just had one opponent that I messed up my attacks with and the other I just couldn't get past a couple of his teams because they were too strong for me (in the 3v3 version). 4-2 is decent enough I'd say.

    Again, GA has nothing to do with "end game" because it is setup to accommodate all levels of player. Having Gear 12 characters or not is only an issue when you are a collector vs someone who is focused on only certain teams. TB is another incentive to increase your roster, especially toons you don't use because they will end up being needed in platoons. But, that's got nothing to do with the discussion here. (I've specifically 7*'d characters so that we can fill platoons in TB and that's all they are there for.)

    Being a super focused player on only certain teams gives you a better chance in GA because it is solely based on "GP". There should be other parameters that come into account for matchmaking, like zeta count, gear 12 count, and so on.

    I just don't get why, as you did in your response, there is such a quick response to always say, "That's your fault dude!" to a player who has a challenge, or can't accomplish something in this game. Yes, I play the way I play, I collect how I want to collect. I do my best to stay on target. But just because I bring up an issue and provide an alternate point of view doesn't mean there's a need to throw in the "well you aren't playing right, that's your fault!" stuff. Especially when you misread what I stated. :wink:

    I was simply stating that ga does not discourage you to gear characters. It may discourage gearing to a certain level characters that aren't used a lot but you still need to gear characters. So I don't believe it goes against the devs wanting you to gear characters.

    And unless you are an ultra kracken, you can't get g12 on every character. As much as the devs would love everyone to spend that much, it doesn't happen. I used that as an example of the goal post the devs want not an ideal ga roster. Since we are not at maxed out rosters, we all make choices about what to gear up.

    Some choose to be competitive and some choose to be collectors. I haven't said that either choice is wrong. One does lead to more ga wins though. But if ga wins isn't important to you then do your thing of course. But don't complain on the forums about the consequences of your choices.

    Because ultimately, the choices you make in building your roster determine your likelihood of winning ga far more than the matchmaking does.

    Where are those collectors? I've yet to see anyone who says "hey dude, I just like collecting, I don't care about being competetive". You seem to be inflating a fringe case to a norm and make an argument based on that. When you check my roster and see that I have most toons collected, do you think it's because I'm a collector?

    I've seen many argue that the reason they aren't competitive is because their play style is more collector than competitive. And yes you get the shards for a lot of characters by the time you've played for 2 or 3 years just through osmosis.

    I think the real difference comes down to whether you are willing to use regular or cantina energy to farm shards of characters that aren't terribly useful. Competitive players likely pass on that. Players that like to collect would likely still farm them. And of course these are the extremes on a bell curve and the vast majority of players fall somewhere in the middle.

    Cantina energy for example, I'm sure almost everyone is farming something out of there unless you have the shop farmed out. But someone who has a goal to unlock and 7 star every character may use crystals to refresh even if the character isn't all that useful. While a competitive minded player would likely either skip the farm although or at the very least only use the energy they can't save towards it and hoard the crystals for the next character that will make their roster more competitive.

    You can call it casual vs competitive if you want but it changes little. Those that build rosters for winning pvp game modes do better than those that don't.

    Ok, I understand what you are saying now. I'm certainly a competetive player and I also farm the hell out of every toon avaliable on maps. I think in a few months my farmability back catalogue will expire where I'll have to wait for new releases. Though in CGs recent mindset which is driven by panic farms for powerful toons I'm advantegous for doing it like this, not less competetive for certain. Only thing that **** on my competetiveness is the current matchmaking system.

    I'm the same way, but I can say that for the first time since starting, I'm intentionally not adding new stars or gear to toons that aren't either TW/ GA viable, or requirements for events (ewoks). Everything else, although some can be useful, will just inflate my gp without adding much use, so it can wait.
    That's not really a good thing, is it?

    This.

    And this is the source of the mismatching issues people are having when matching total GP from players historical choices.

    And it doesnt even need to be taken to extremes. "focused and narrow" rosters vs "broader and G7'd" rosters are generating matches where its a not a contest at all.

    The way ahead to gain an advantage. What you (and no doubt many others) are doing. Intentionally not gear and level your toons.

    I agree this is highly unhealthy for the game. I doubt the intention of the developers is to stop people investing in their characters.

    But you aren't not gearing characters. (Other than useless ones) you are simply focusing your gear to toons that give you more bang for your buck.

    It isn't any different than saving 3 zetas up before you will unlock a hero's journey character.

    And the solution for useless characters is occasionally reworking them to keep/make them relevant. Then there'll be a reason to gear them.
  • Gannon wrote: »
    When GA was still just speculation, I had hoped it was like TW or raids and once a toon was used, it would be unavailable for the rest of the 3 round event.. So ppl would be forced to use non meta teams, and every junk toon could make a huge impact across the three rounds. Lol

    That would certainly mix things up. Great idea!
  • Gannon wrote: »
    When GA was still just speculation, I had hoped it was like TW or raids and once a toon was used, it would be unavailable for the rest of the 3 round event.. So ppl would be forced to use non meta teams, and every junk toon could make a huge impact across the three rounds. Lol

    Yeah man, a lot they can do with it. It has a lot of potential, it’s just a little bogus at the moment with it’s current setup.
    Member of ‘Thugs in White Armor’
  • Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    The problem with the current GA system is that CG wants us to be "collectors" because they make more money that way, but GA calculating GP to create opponents punishes collectors for having more characters unlocked, 7 star, geared up, etc., vs the person who has like 30 gear 12 characters. I know because I faced someone like that in my last GA. He had twice as many gear 12 characters as me, more zetas, but half his "roster" was level 1 characters that weren't even touched.

    I don't think CG wants you to collect all characters and gear them only to g7. They want you to go big and have a g12 7 star full roster. If you had that you'd be able to win ga.

    If you collect and hear everything to g7 and can't use it, that's on you.

    There is plenty of incentive to get several teams to g12 that this is not a surprise. For hstr, you need g12 teams to do well and most of those teams are also good in ga. The chewie event and 3PO events required higher gear both on teams that were good in ga. Tb combat has required higher geared teams to complete on the last tier for over a year now. Tw has req good teams (maxed out is better) for nearly a year.

    So the writing has been on the wall that to do well endgame, you need a pretty deep roster of g12 teams. If you ignored all that and collected and just geared everything to g7 that's on you.

    Not sure where I said anything about "gear 7". I only stated 7 star characters. And of course CG wants us to collect and max out every character. That still makes someone a collector. Lastly, just because you have a fully maxed roster doesn't mean you have any better of a chance to win GA. Why? Because you're facing other players with a fully maxed roster too. I still did 2-1 in each GA so I was able to win. I just had one opponent that I messed up my attacks with and the other I just couldn't get past a couple of his teams because they were too strong for me (in the 3v3 version). 4-2 is decent enough I'd say.

    Again, GA has nothing to do with "end game" because it is setup to accommodate all levels of player. Having Gear 12 characters or not is only an issue when you are a collector vs someone who is focused on only certain teams. TB is another incentive to increase your roster, especially toons you don't use because they will end up being needed in platoons. But, that's got nothing to do with the discussion here. (I've specifically 7*'d characters so that we can fill platoons in TB and that's all they are there for.)

    Being a super focused player on only certain teams gives you a better chance in GA because it is solely based on "GP". There should be other parameters that come into account for matchmaking, like zeta count, gear 12 count, and so on.

    I just don't get why, as you did in your response, there is such a quick response to always say, "That's your fault dude!" to a player who has a challenge, or can't accomplish something in this game. Yes, I play the way I play, I collect how I want to collect. I do my best to stay on target. But just because I bring up an issue and provide an alternate point of view doesn't mean there's a need to throw in the "well you aren't playing right, that's your fault!" stuff. Especially when you misread what I stated. :wink:

    I was simply stating that ga does not discourage you to gear characters. It may discourage gearing to a certain level characters that aren't used a lot but you still need to gear characters. So I don't believe it goes against the devs wanting you to gear characters.

    And unless you are an ultra kracken, you can't get g12 on every character. As much as the devs would love everyone to spend that much, it doesn't happen. I used that as an example of the goal post the devs want not an ideal ga roster. Since we are not at maxed out rosters, we all make choices about what to gear up.

    Some choose to be competitive and some choose to be collectors. I haven't said that either choice is wrong. One does lead to more ga wins though. But if ga wins isn't important to you then do your thing of course. But don't complain on the forums about the consequences of your choices.

    Because ultimately, the choices you make in building your roster determine your likelihood of winning ga far more than the matchmaking does.

    Where are those collectors? I've yet to see anyone who says "hey dude, I just like collecting, I don't care about being competetive". You seem to be inflating a fringe case to a norm and make an argument based on that. When you check my roster and see that I have most toons collected, do you think it's because I'm a collector?

    I've seen many argue that the reason they aren't competitive is because their play style is more collector than competitive. And yes you get the shards for a lot of characters by the time you've played for 2 or 3 years just through osmosis.

    I think the real difference comes down to whether you are willing to use regular or cantina energy to farm shards of characters that aren't terribly useful. Competitive players likely pass on that. Players that like to collect would likely still farm them. And of course these are the extremes on a bell curve and the vast majority of players fall somewhere in the middle.

    Cantina energy for example, I'm sure almost everyone is farming something out of there unless you have the shop farmed out. But someone who has a goal to unlock and 7 star every character may use crystals to refresh even if the character isn't all that useful. While a competitive minded player would likely either skip the farm although or at the very least only use the energy they can't save towards it and hoard the crystals for the next character that will make their roster more competitive.

    You can call it casual vs competitive if you want but it changes little. Those that build rosters for winning pvp game modes do better than those that don't.

    Ok, I understand what you are saying now. I'm certainly a competetive player and I also farm the hell out of every toon avaliable on maps. I think in a few months my farmability back catalogue will expire where I'll have to wait for new releases. Though in CGs recent mindset which is driven by panic farms for powerful toons I'm advantegous for doing it like this, not less competetive for certain. Only thing that **** on my competetiveness is the current matchmaking system.

    I'm the same way, but I can say that for the first time since starting, I'm intentionally not adding new stars or gear to toons that aren't either TW/ GA viable, or requirements for events (ewoks). Everything else, although some can be useful, will just inflate my gp without adding much use, so it can wait.
    That's not really a good thing, is it?

    This.

    And this is the source of the mismatching issues people are having when matching total GP from players historical choices.

    And it doesnt even need to be taken to extremes. "focused and narrow" rosters vs "broader and G7'd" rosters are generating matches where its a not a contest at all.

    The way ahead to gain an advantage. What you (and no doubt many others) are doing. Intentionally not gear and level your toons.

    I agree this is highly unhealthy for the game. I doubt the intention of the developers is to stop people investing in their characters.

    But you aren't not gearing characters. (Other than useless ones) you are simply focusing your gear to toons that give you more bang for your buck.

    It isn't any different than saving 3 zetas up before you will unlock a hero's journey character.

    And the solution for useless characters is occasionally reworking them to keep/make them relevant. Then there'll be a reason to gear them.

    That's true also.. At the risk of sounding like Kyno, lots of toons are undervalued at the moment anyway.
    I am gearing clone chewy from g8, as he's currently one of my only undefeated leads on GA defense lol
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