Punishing good resource management skills?

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I was thinking of how often people praise resource management in this game as being the most useful quality that a player can have. Not making impulse decisions and carefully assigning resources to the best and strongest characters while not impulsively assigning zetas, omegas, or gear into characters that aren't very useful just because you like them.

I have noticed however this trend that keeps punishing people who don't invest in bad factions or characters and reward those who do... Let's look at the evidence together and see for ourselves.

1. BB8 is released requiring 5 FO characters. That is prior to KRU, Panda and SF FO pilot being in the game, essentially forcing the community to use FO ST who is only available on hard nodes. Notice also how at the time hard nodes were limited to 3 per day unless you reset them using crystals.

At the time FO was a plain bad faction. Phasma and Kylo were the only two characters worthy of investing in at the time, with the other 3 being kind of inefficient to farm. The energy investment for a character like FO ST was definitely not worth it and spending gear on pilot or officer never seemed like the right choice when we had far superior choices like CLS, Finn, Phoenix, Empires, chaze, ect.

2. Rey is the next example and apart from the fact that unless you could place in the top 3 in both arenas or pay you stood no chance at farming the vets in time, on top of that the vets are just awful at the game. They are so weak that it's hard to justify those 16 energy cantina nodes. We're basically forced to sink a ton of resources into bad characters that under different circumstances nobody would care to invest in.

3. Then we have Chewbacca to talk about. I have a hard time believing that any reasonable person would gear Bounty Hunters, at least not the ones available at the time. I can see why it's a good decision to invest in Bossk, Boba, Jango, Embo, Dengar but the others were trash. I mean some of them got ships thankfully like cad bane and IG but that was after.

The only area in the game where Bounty Hunters were useful at was in dark side TB where they are required for an SM and a CM. The thing is g8 hunters with maybe a g11-12 Boba were enough, nobody had to actually dump any more resources into it, in order to get those missions done. When the event came requiring g11-12 it became very obvious that only those who had a legitimate love relationship with the faction would have those characters geared up.

4. Now we have a similar situation with 3PO where basically we're once more forced to invest in a bad class for the sake of a legendary character. The gear requirements and zeta on chirpa is something that no sensible person would have done prior to this event.

I just don't to ever hear anyone speak to me about resource management ever again when it's pretty much a fact that on numerous occasions the game has favoured those who made poor roster decisions.

Replies

  • This is how the game works.

    If you want the good toons, you need to develop some of the bad ones to get them.

  • Vets are good, just scoundrels dont have a good leader like qira at the time.
  • Managing adversarial event is also part of the management skills. Hedging for stars and gear requirements is now part of the constraints. Next faction: separatist and dark side old republic...

  • Good resource management means you should have hoarded more than enough resources to panic farm the next big Legendary or Hero’s Journey. You only put in as much gear and Zetas as needed during the event, not before.
  • What you call good ressource management is usually called sandbagging.
    Every strategy has drawbacks, and so has yours...
  • Ugnaught
    481 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    That is exactly why resource management is praised. You never know what faction or characters you will need next. Those who are able to conserve resources can gear up the needed faction quickly once we are aware that it is required.
  • Youve left some important points out. Resource management is very important - if youre doing it right youll have no problems to get all the legendary characters out therere. The second big rewarding for good resource management is GA - seriously, there is no better place to see if your Resource management is good then GA. If u just farmed a lot of low geared squads and didnt focused on the right squads and pushed them to a decent level ur most likely screwed :)
  • Resource management=expectation management.
  • Liath
    5140 posts Member
    There are plenty of people who got these characters without having a prior love affair with a bad faction. These people recognized the trend in the game towards requiring previously underused factions and/or characters for new content. They recognized early on that the best thing you can do to be prepared for anything is to farm all of the characters/factions you can and save some gear to be able to build up the thing that is suddenly needed once it is announced.

    The people you’re talking about might get lucky and get one legendary because they happened to like the required faction. The people I’m talking about can get all the legendaries and it’s not a matter of luck.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Managing resources means putting the least necessary on toons that have less usefulness, not "not investing" in them.

    The FO and vets situation is a good example of where you could manage them, but still needed to go down a path.

    As for BH and Ewoks, that have always been decent teams but just not as widespread on the usefulness. Even the available BH at the time of the event were worth it. Both of the teams used for the events are good TW/GA teams.

    There is always going to be required toons for whatever legendary or other event/game mode that comes down the pipeline, the management part of the game is having resources ready to make it happen.
  • Waqui
    8802 posts Member
    PeteBajama wrote: »
    I have noticed however this trend that keeps punishing people who don't invest in bad factions or characters and reward those who do... Let's look at the evidence together and see for ourselves.

    1. BB8 is released requiring 5 FO characters. That is prior to KRU, Panda and SF FO pilot being in the game, essentially forcing the community to use FO ST who is only available on hard nodes. Notice also how at the time hard nodes were limited to 3 per day unless you reset them using crystals.

    At the time FO was a plain bad faction. Phasma and Kylo were the only two characters worthy of investing in at the time, with the other 3 being kind of inefficient to farm. The energy investment for a character like FO ST was definitely not worth it and spending gear on pilot or officer never seemed like the right choice when we had far superior choices like CLS, Finn, Phoenix, Empires, chaze, ect.

    A. FOO was one of the best investments in the cantina shop along with QGJ, Boba, Daka and Poe. FOO was one of the very best characters for rancor raids until CLS was introduced. Many players already had him at 7* for that reason.
    B. FOTP may have been one of the longest farms back then, but it was a good investment. FOTP was an absoloute beast in squad arena until the rebalancing when protection was introduced. The awe factor of having a 7* FOTP was only surpassed by having a 7* Vader og Grievous until they became available in fleet store. After ships were introduced even more players farmed FOTP for his ship.
    C. This makes 4 of the 5 orginal FO characters really good investments already before BB8 was introduced. Kylo and Phasma were not the only ones.
    D. FO ST was farmable from three diferent hard nodes - not just one.
    E. When Kylo Ren's command shuttle became farmable, it was placed together with one of FO ST's hard nodes. You could farm two characters at the same time for the price of one - a quite good investment (that one node at least).
    PeteBajama wrote: »
    2. Rey is the next example and apart from the fact that unless you could place in the top 3 in both arenas or pay you stood no chance at farming the vets in time, on top of that the vets are just awful at the game. They are so weak that it's hard to justify those 16 energy cantina nodes. We're basically forced to sink a ton of resources into bad characters that under different circumstances nobody would care to invest in.

    Part of good resource management is to invest your resources in characters that secure a continuous, steady income of valuable resources f.ex. by ranking high in arena(s). Yes, you needed a lot of crystals to farm the vets in time for the first time around - but it was doable. Good resource management was rewarded - not punished.
    PeteBajama wrote: »
    3. Then we have Chewbacca to talk about. I have a hard time believing that any reasonable person would gear Bounty Hunters, at least not the ones available at the time. I can see why it's a good decision to invest in Bossk, Boba, Jango, Embo, Dengar but the others were trash. I mean some of them got ships thankfully like cad bane and IG but that was after.

    The only area in the game where Bounty Hunters were useful at was in dark side TB where they are required for an SM and a CM. The thing is g8 hunters with maybe a g11-12 Boba were enough, nobody had to actually dump any more resources into it, in order to get those missions done. When the event came requiring g11-12 it became very obvious that only those who had a legitimate love relationship with the faction would have those characters geared up.

    Many already had Greedo geared for hSTR p3 and IG-88 geared for early hAAT or early arena during the droid META. (IG-88 is not that great for Chewie's event, I know). Yes, it may have been a race to gear the BH up, but at least most people already had a full team. Furthermore, the event was doable with less than those gear levels. A g12 Boba lead with the rest at a mix of g9 through g11 could suffice.
    PeteBajama wrote: »
    4. Now we have a similar situation with 3PO where basically we're once more forced to invest in a bad class for the sake of a legendary character. The gear requirements and zeta on chirpa is something that no sensible person would have done prior to this event.

    Teebo, Elder and scout were quite good investments back in the early days of the Rancor Raid - with Teebo being the best of all. Chirpa was not bad, and could be used for a gimmick Rancor solo team. Elder was once also quite good in arena (not top tier, but above average). A 7* Wicket was a good investment for those extra zetas every month. Farming ewok from the forest moon also rewarded credits. Having a droid/trooper/empire team for that event was a good investment. Since the gear requirements for C-3P0's event are less than for One Famous Wookie, you really should be able to get a 7* C-3PO with mediocre resource management only.
    PeteBajama wrote: »
    I just don't to ever hear anyone speak to me about resource management ever again when it's pretty much a fact that on numerous occasions the game has favoured those who made poor roster decisions.

    TL:DR : I disagree.
  • Hmmm, this game is all about choices. If you took the risk and farmed a certain faction early when nobody did and CG subsequently made that said faction a requirement to get a toon, then kudos to you for taking the risk when most didn't.

    Then cue those who complain about not having that said faction. I don't think they are complaining about the requirements; I feel that they are just complaining that they did not have the foresight to farm the faction before the requirements were made known.

    Good resource management is subjective so I dont see why players get "punished" for not farming a certain required faction. Plus, how engaged do you think you will be if every legendary toon required the same few factions to be used?

    PS: The factions that you have cited as examples for bad toons or factions are actually decent on TW and GA. In relation to BH for example, have you tried:

    a. Bossk lead with a BH lineup?
    b. HTooth in fleet arena/TW/GA?
    c. XBlood with HTooth for fleet arena/TW/GA?

    I believe with GA now a game mode, roster depth and diversity can only be helpful to win.
  • The only resource you manage in this game is your money.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    The only resource you manage in this game is your money.

    For all the f2p out there it's time. Not everyone spends and some even have lives and families.
  • People can choose to be pve or pvp nobody is holding a light saber to our heads and forcing us to spend cash.
  • Degs29
    361 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    PeteBajama wrote: »
    Notice also how at the time hard nodes were limited to 3 per day unless you reset them using crystals.

    Even though they've gone to 8 per day, they also decreased the drop rate. So, it's not like we were worse off back then.

    As to your main point, some of the game mechanics rewards good resource management. Grand Arena and Territory Wars both profit from resource management, plus the general having gear, zetas, etc., available for when you need them is a plus.

    And some of the game mechanics reward splurging everything you have. Territory Battles profit the most from this.

    There's good and bad to each approach. Personally, I believe resource management is the better option, and wish I had have followed that strategy sooner.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Degs29 wrote: »
    PeteBajama wrote: »
    Notice also how at the time hard nodes were limited to 3 per day unless you reset them using crystals.

    Even though they've gone to 8 per day, they also decreased the drop rate.

    Please post your data showing this.

  • Debate of game economics, serious business.
  • Degs29 wrote: »
    PeteBajama wrote: »
    Notice also how at the time hard nodes were limited to 3 per day unless you reset them using crystals.

    Even though they've gone to 8 per day, they also decreased the drop rate. So, it's not like we were worse off back then.

    As to your main point, some of the game mechanics rewards good resource management. Grand Arena and Territory Wars both profit from resource management, plus the general having gear, zetas, etc., available for when you need them is a plus.

    And some of the game mechanics reward splurging everything you have. Territory Battles profit the most from this.

    There's good and bad to each approach. Personally, I believe resource management is the better option, and wish I had have followed that strategy sooner.

    Strange, bastilla and jolee were the least of my worries when farming OR toons for revan... I seem to recall them being on hard nodes...
  • Kyno wrote: »

    For all the f2p out there it's time. Not everyone spends and some even have lives and families.

    Unless we have undead orphans playing, everyone has lives and families...
    Ally Code 766-465-766 swgoh.gg/u/trystansr/collection/
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Degs29 wrote: »
    PeteBajama wrote: »
    Notice also how at the time hard nodes were limited to 3 per day unless you reset them using crystals.

    Even though they've gone to 8 per day, they also decreased the drop rate.

    Please post your data showing this.

    Confirmation bias is brutal sometimes.
  • Pro tip. Level all useless toons to seven stars when you can. CG has shown time and time again that rarely used toons are needed at some point for some event. Get your Holdo and Rose ready for the next FO unlock..when that comes.
  • Resource management by definition requires limited resources. If you, like me, have 100million credits +, leveling Ugnaught or CUP to lvl 85 has nothing to do with saving for the future. What GA did was an ex post facto rule change. Going forward, you will see more and more toons at level 1 (maybe even purposely kept locked) as people try to trim GP.
  • These past two events (Chewie and C-3PO) have been more about gear and zeta management. I got a 6* Chewie since I didn't get Bossk to 7* yet. However, it was pretty much luck that I got through tier 6 even with G12 Fett and Dengar.

    For C-3PO, again, it was some luck. I finally got toons to fall in tier 7 and got fortunate with revives. I still had to spend a zeta on Chirpa and a stun gun on another Ewok, but I managed to pull it off with none of my Ewoks being G12.

    Really, my roster has suffered in the pursuit of get all the toons to 7* in case they are needed. I'm at 4 million GP, yet I only have 23 g12 toons. I almost have a bell curve going from G12 to G7 (23 39 17 12 55 20) with only Revan and Traya to unlock at the current time. I have sacrificed gear farming for toon farming. Now that I moved to a HSTR guild, I am earning a lot more raid tokens which help with gear. I generally never hoard gear or zetas, but that may be the way to go for the future.
  • E3P0
    109 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    PeteBajama wrote: »
    1. BB8 is released requiring 5 FO characters. That is prior to KRU, Panda and SF FO pilot being in the game, essentially forcing the community to use FO ST who is only available on hard nodes. Notice also how at the time hard nodes were limited to 3 per day unless you reset them using crystals.

    At the time FO was a plain bad faction. Phasma and Kylo were the only two characters worthy of investing in at the time, with the other 3 being kind of inefficient to farm. The energy investment for a character like FO ST was definitely not worth it and spending gear on pilot or officer never seemed like the right choice when we had far superior choices like CLS, Finn, Phoenix, Empires, chaze, ect.

    FOTP was definitely a better choice to gear than some of the ones you list. Phoenix didn't need very high gear levels to beat the Thrawn event, nor did zFinn need high gear for his squad to work, Empire was far weaker than it is now (remember this was before the Palpatine and Vader reworks), etc. Meanwhile in the ships 1.0 meta FOTP's ship was probably one of the top 3-5 most powerful.

    Not to mention the fact that we were literally weeks away from TLJ being released by the time the BB-8 event returned for the second time. Anyone with any common sense could have foreseen FO becoming a much more relevant faction - KRU had also just come out so we knew the faction would be a worthwhile investment by at the least the second iteration of the BB8 event (which is when many of us without a maxed Zylo were ready). It was also pretty much a no-brainer that BB-8 would be required for the new Rey, meaning we would need a fully starred and somewhat geared FO team first.
    2. Rey is the next example and apart from the fact that unless you could place in the top 3 in both arenas or pay you stood no chance at farming the vets in time, on top of that the vets are just awful at the game. They are so weak that it's hard to justify those 16 energy cantina nodes. We're basically forced to sink a ton of resources into bad characters that under different circumstances nobody would care to invest in.

    You may be correct on their strength but are definitely wrong about farming the vets in time for Rey. I probably was averaging about 60 and 5 in both arenas at the time and I made it. The key factor was I made an effort early on to read the tea leaves in speculation of which toons would be required right when we first knew a new Rey would be coming. (I have to credit Ahnald's speculation video, which made a lot of sense to me)
    3. Then we have Chewbacca to talk about. I have a hard time believing that any reasonable person would gear Bounty Hunters, at least not the ones available at the time. I can see why it's a good decision to invest in Bossk, Boba, Jango, Embo, Dengar but the others were trash. I mean some of them got ships thankfully like cad bane and IG but that was after.

    What in the world are you talking about? First of all "at the time" was just like 3 months ago. BHs got their rework back in April. Aurra, Embo, Jango and the Zam/Cad reworks were still rather new but apart from 2 new ship releases they were in the same place they are today. We knew BH were a strong faction for multiple STR phases. They had a strong double bonus in TW (for being both BHs and Scoundrels), were a required investment for TB special missions, and had good use in other parts of the game going back to the beginning. IG-88 used to be a key part of droid teams which were both a legitimate arena team for a while and useable in the HAAT raid. Boba had a really good ship, and used to be one of the strongest plug&play toons. Bossk also had a really good ship and a great zeta leadership. Greedo was the centerpiece of a hard-hitting p3 STR team. Dengar was a popular option for the Pit raid. Even Zam was a fun and useful machine-gunning combo on a Boba team that I used to lean on heavily for helping clear the old hard GW by loading turn meter. The only real dud in my eyes was Cad Bane. That all aside, we also had an Assault Battle in Rebel Roundup to gear them up for, as well as one of the 4 quests being devoted to them. Personally, I have a hard time believing that any reasonable person WOULDN'T have geared up Bounty Hunters, at least as a backburner / side project. If only for their usefulness in TW/TB and for Boba and Bossk's crew power. Most people should have had at least around a g9/10 BH team ready, with probably 1-3 at or near g12. If you were lucky that would have been almost enough. Personally I got Chewie with 2 g12s, 2 g10s and a g8.
    4. Now we have a similar situation with 3PO where basically we're once more forced to invest in a bad class for the sake of a legendary character. The gear requirements and zeta on chirpa is something that no sensible person would have done prior to this event.

    This is the only point here that I don't think is entirely off-base. The best we can really say about Ewoks before this point is that they were a B-tier or C-tier team. They had some use as a cleanup squad in TW, and in the early days of STR they were an option many people tried out. They also were a rogue Arena team way back in the day when there were only 4 of them. That being said they were still worth working on on the side when you could spare any resources just for the free zetas from the Wicket event. I'll also add that Ewoks for C3P0 has been one of the most obvious requirements since BB8 for Rey or the CLS requirements. Even before any of the many hints were dropped.
  • PeteBajama wrote: »
    I was thinking of how often people praise resource management in this game as being the most useful quality that a player can have. Not making impulse decisions and carefully assigning resources to the best and strongest characters while not impulsively assigning zetas, omegas, or gear into characters that aren't very useful just because you like them.

    I have noticed however this trend that keeps punishing people who don't invest in bad factions or characters and reward those who do... Let's look at the evidence together and see for ourselves.

    1. BB8 is released requiring 5 FO characters. That is prior to KRU, Panda and SF FO pilot being in the game, essentially forcing the community to use FO ST who is only available on hard nodes. Notice also how at the time hard nodes were limited to 3 per day unless you reset them using crystals.

    At the time FO was a plain bad faction. Phasma and Kylo were the only two characters worthy of investing in at the time, with the other 3 being kind of inefficient to farm. The energy investment for a character like FO ST was definitely not worth it and spending gear on pilot or officer never seemed like the right choice when we had far superior choices like CLS, Finn, Phoenix, Empires, chaze, ect.

    2. Rey is the next example and apart from the fact that unless you could place in the top 3 in both arenas or pay you stood no chance at farming the vets in time, on top of that the vets are just awful at the game. They are so weak that it's hard to justify those 16 energy cantina nodes. We're basically forced to sink a ton of resources into bad characters that under different circumstances nobody would care to invest in.

    3. Then we have Chewbacca to talk about. I have a hard time believing that any reasonable person would gear Bounty Hunters, at least not the ones available at the time. I can see why it's a good decision to invest in Bossk, Boba, Jango, Embo, Dengar but the others were trash. I mean some of them got ships thankfully like cad bane and IG but that was after.

    The only area in the game where Bounty Hunters were useful at was in dark side TB where they are required for an SM and a CM. The thing is g8 hunters with maybe a g11-12 Boba were enough, nobody had to actually dump any more resources into it, in order to get those missions done. When the event came requiring g11-12 it became very obvious that only those who had a legitimate love relationship with the faction would have those characters geared up.

    4. Now we have a similar situation with 3PO where basically we're once more forced to invest in a bad class for the sake of a legendary character. The gear requirements and zeta on chirpa is something that no sensible person would have done prior to this event.

    I just don't to ever hear anyone speak to me about resource management ever again when it's pretty much a fact that on numerous occasions the game has favoured those who made poor roster decisions.

    You're forgetting that the likelihood of being needed for a future legendary event is part of good resource management.

    There have been legendaries requiring a faction for at least 2 years now. So part of your farming plan is farming good characters that may lead to even better ones.

    Also, if you had bh or ewoks high enough to finish their respective events, the grind to finish them from when the hints dropped wasn't that hard.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Resource management by definition requires limited resources. If you, like me, have 100million credits +, leveling Ugnaught or CUP to lvl 85 has nothing to do with saving for the future. What GA did was an ex post facto rule change. Going forward, you will see more and more toons at level 1 (maybe even purposely kept locked) as people try to trim GP.

    If you have unleveled mods, abilities, toons not optimally modded, and still want to buy mods from the mod store, it is a waste. There is also the future toons you may want to star and level up.

    Staying flexible is important in this game, using resources because you have them is not managing at all, and it does matter in the long run. There are better uses for credits in just hunting down better mods than there is in a lvl 85 CUP. I spent 10M in just one day leveling mods, selling (so over 10M), and slicing mods to get some better speed. Got a 25 in that run.

    Credits are used for more than just leveling toons.
  • Gifafi
    6017 posts Member
    PeteBajama wrote: »
    I was thinking of how often people praise resource management in this game as being the most useful quality that a player can have. Not making impulse decisions and carefully assigning resources to the best and strongest characters while not impulsively assigning zetas, omegas, or gear into characters that aren't very useful just because you like them.

    I have noticed however this trend that keeps punishing people who don't invest in bad factions or characters and reward those who do... Let's look at the evidence together and see for ourselves.

    1. BB8 is released requiring 5 FO characters. That is prior to KRU, Panda and SF FO pilot being in the game, essentially forcing the community to use FO ST who is only available on hard nodes. Notice also how at the time hard nodes were limited to 3 per day unless you reset them using crystals.

    At the time FO was a plain bad faction. Phasma and Kylo were the only two characters worthy of investing in at the time, with the other 3 being kind of inefficient to farm. The energy investment for a character like FO ST was definitely not worth it and spending gear on pilot or officer never seemed like the right choice when we had far superior choices like CLS, Finn, Phoenix, Empires, chaze, ect.

    2. Rey is the next example and apart from the fact that unless you could place in the top 3 in both arenas or pay you stood no chance at farming the vets in time, on top of that the vets are just awful at the game. They are so weak that it's hard to justify those 16 energy cantina nodes. We're basically forced to sink a ton of resources into bad characters that under different circumstances nobody would care to invest in.

    3. Then we have Chewbacca to talk about. I have a hard time believing that any reasonable person would gear Bounty Hunters, at least not the ones available at the time. I can see why it's a good decision to invest in Bossk, Boba, Jango, Embo, Dengar but the others were trash. I mean some of them got ships thankfully like cad bane and IG but that was after.

    The only area in the game where Bounty Hunters were useful at was in dark side TB where they are required for an SM and a CM. The thing is g8 hunters with maybe a g11-12 Boba were enough, nobody had to actually dump any more resources into it, in order to get those missions done. When the event came requiring g11-12 it became very obvious that only those who had a legitimate love relationship with the faction would have those characters geared up.

    4. Now we have a similar situation with 3PO where basically we're once more forced to invest in a bad class for the sake of a legendary character. The gear requirements and zeta on chirpa is something that no sensible person would have done prior to this event.

    I just don't to ever hear anyone speak to me about resource management ever again when it's pretty much a fact that on numerous occasions the game has favoured those who made poor roster decisions.

    The vets being bad is literally the only thing correct here. Amazing
    Maybe End Game isn't for you
  • PeteBajama wrote: »

    I just don't to ever hear anyone speak to me about resource management ever again when it's pretty much a fact that on numerous occasions the game has favoured those who made poor roster decisions.

    The purpose of the game, from the developer's standpoint, is to give people a reason to put resources into as many characters as possible. If someone could just sit on their hands with a couple of meta teams for a year or two, then there would be no reason for people to spend money on the game....and, therefore, no game.
  • Gifafi wrote: »
    The vets being bad is literally the only thing correct here. Amazing

    But that’s not even correct. The Vets hit like trucks and have decent abilities. Their drawback is they don’t have a faction other than Scoundrel.
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