Apply Paper NS Zombie Logic to Grand Arena—a better matchmaking algorithm is needed

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Tophat:
At its core, this strategy primarily breaks a core tenant/rule of the game - investing more deeply in a character should always be better in terms of gameplay outcomes; more health, more damage, more functionality, etc. This is a game about strategic resource management and you should be rewarded for strategically investing in a character. People who did this investment were then punished, because there is no way to “level down” a character. This doesn’t always perfectly hold up, but we do our best to hold to the spirit of that core pillar as much as we possibly can.

Apply this to Territory Battles and Grand Arena. Galactic Power was added for TB, and growing one’s GP is needed to win. Then comes Grand Arena where high GP is a detriment. People exploiting undeveloped rosters for lower GP matchmaking is hardly any different than choosing to exploit an undeveloped NS Zombie. Players should be rewarded for growing their GP to help their guild in an established game mode. Just like Zombie, one cannot strip gear down once placed; one cannot choose to lower their GP to get fair fights in Grand Arena.

The matchmaking algorithm should at least be matching people with similar gear levels (e.g., G12/G11), while preferably also cross matching similar characters (e.g., Revan, Traya, etc.).
Member of ‘Thugs in White Armor’

Replies

  • Kyno
    20556 posts Moderator
    GP has always been there, it was different before, so it was trying to represent more of a usefulness number and it was failing at that. They changed it to represent an investment. Each toon now has a power that represents how much you have invested in them.

    Your total GP is how much you have chosen to develop your roster, what you have available to use is about your choices.

    They state the core is about investing more into a character gives you more. This is absolutely true, even now with GA, and has nothing to do with the paper zombie issue.

    In their own words they are talking about wanting strategic development and strategic resource management to be a core tenant of the game and that it should always benefit the player to do so. This still holds true for GA. Some have done it more than others and are benefitting from it right now.

    For those of us that have wider rosters, there will be a longer development curve, but that has always been the nature of the game. Very few are ready for a new raid or game mode when it comes out and there are always "wasted resources" that hurt our development into the "new thing". We adapt, we develop and we all try to get better.

    At no point will anyone stop developing their roster and get or do better at GA, that would be against what they have stated as the "spirit of the game" issue stated with 'paper zombie'.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    GP has always been there, it was different before, so it was trying to represent more of a usefulness number and it was failing at that. They changed it to represent an investment. Each toon now has a power that represents how much you have invested in them.

    Your total GP is how much you have chosen to develop your roster, what you have available to use is about your choices.

    They state the core is about investing more into a character gives you more. This is absolutely true, even now with GA, and has nothing to do with the paper zombie issue.

    In their own words they are talking about wanting strategic development and strategic resource management to be a core tenant of the game and that it should always benefit the player to do so. This still holds true for GA. Some have done it more than others and are benefitting from it right now.

    For those of us that have wider rosters, there will be a longer development curve, but that has always been the nature of the game. Very few are ready for a new raid or game mode when it comes out and there are always "wasted resources" that hurt our development into the "new thing". We adapt, we develop and we all try to get better.

    At no point will anyone stop developing their roster and get or do better at GA, that would be against what they have stated as the "spirit of the game" issue stated with 'paper zombie'.

    “Power,” as in a character’s power, has always been in the game. Galactic Power, which reworked character power into something meaningful, was added for Territory Battles. A guild needs a lot of Galactic Power to complete Territory Battles, and many guild-oriented players have been growing their GP for that game mode.

    Players should not be “punished” for doing so, which is what I would describe being grossly mismatched in a brand new PvP game mode. There are ways around that. For example, making a brand new PvP GP number that only takes from characters that are G10+. Or just not using GP at all and matching people based on similar roster-wide gear levels, as I previously mentioned.
    Member of ‘Thugs in White Armor’
  • Kyno
    20556 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    GP has always been there, it was different before, so it was trying to represent more of a usefulness number and it was failing at that. They changed it to represent an investment. Each toon now has a power that represents how much you have invested in them.

    Your total GP is how much you have chosen to develop your roster, what you have available to use is about your choices.

    They state the core is about investing more into a character gives you more. This is absolutely true, even now with GA, and has nothing to do with the paper zombie issue.

    In their own words they are talking about wanting strategic development and strategic resource management to be a core tenant of the game and that it should always benefit the player to do so. This still holds true for GA. Some have done it more than others and are benefitting from it right now.

    For those of us that have wider rosters, there will be a longer development curve, but that has always been the nature of the game. Very few are ready for a new raid or game mode when it comes out and there are always "wasted resources" that hurt our development into the "new thing". We adapt, we develop and we all try to get better.

    At no point will anyone stop developing their roster and get or do better at GA, that would be against what they have stated as the "spirit of the game" issue stated with 'paper zombie'.

    “Power,” as in a character’s power, has always been in the game. Galactic Power, which reworked character power into something meaningful, was added for Territory Battles. A guild needs a lot of Galactic Power to complete Territory Battles, and many guild-oriented players have been growing their GP for that game mode.

    Players should not be “punished” for doing so, which is what I would describe being grossly mismatched in a brand new PvP game mode. There are ways around that. For example, making a brand new PvP GP number that only takes from characters that are G10+. Or just not using GP at all and matching people based on similar roster-wide gear levels, as I previously mentioned.

    GP has always existed and was the sum of a characters power. They changed the characters power to represent what investments have been made into the toon rather than the mulitpiers and other factors it used to be to try and make a toons power be representative of their power in a match.

    Players are being matched against someone who has made a similar amount of investment into their roster. The players choices on how they allocated that is the players choice. If someone has invested that into useful toons, or as the dev team stated in your quote used "strategic resource management", why shouldnt they have an advantage?

    Everyone had the same opportunities to make the same choices.

    Matchmaking should be neutral and should not judge the players choices, this is what GP does it is neutral. As with every development choice we make it effects our future. The players choices should make or break them as they move into a new area or just progress through into the future.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    GP has always been there, it was different before, so it was trying to represent more of a usefulness number and it was failing at that. They changed it to represent an investment. Each toon now has a power that represents how much you have invested in them.

    Your total GP is how much you have chosen to develop your roster, what you have available to use is about your choices.

    They state the core is about investing more into a character gives you more. This is absolutely true, even now with GA, and has nothing to do with the paper zombie issue.

    In their own words they are talking about wanting strategic development and strategic resource management to be a core tenant of the game and that it should always benefit the player to do so. This still holds true for GA. Some have done it more than others and are benefitting from it right now.

    For those of us that have wider rosters, there will be a longer development curve, but that has always been the nature of the game. Very few are ready for a new raid or game mode when it comes out and there are always "wasted resources" that hurt our development into the "new thing". We adapt, we develop and we all try to get better.

    At no point will anyone stop developing their roster and get or do better at GA, that would be against what they have stated as the "spirit of the game" issue stated with 'paper zombie'.

    “Power,” as in a character’s power, has always been in the game. Galactic Power, which reworked character power into something meaningful, was added for Territory Battles. A guild needs a lot of Galactic Power to complete Territory Battles, and many guild-oriented players have been growing their GP for that game mode.

    Players should not be “punished” for doing so, which is what I would describe being grossly mismatched in a brand new PvP game mode. There are ways around that. For example, making a brand new PvP GP number that only takes from characters that are G10+. Or just not using GP at all and matching people based on similar roster-wide gear levels, as I previously mentioned.

    GP has always existed and was the sum of a characters power. They changed the characters power to represent what investments have been made into the toon rather than the mulitpiers and other factors it used to be to try and make a toons power be representative of their power in a match.

    Players are being matched against someone who has made a similar amount of investment into their roster. The players choices on how they allocated that is the players choice. If someone has invested that into useful toons, or as the dev team stated in your quote used "strategic resource management", why shouldnt they have an advantage?

    Everyone had the same opportunities to make the same choices.

    Matchmaking should be neutral and should not judge the players choices, this is what GP does it is neutral. As with every development choice we make it effects our future. The players choices should make or break them as they move into a new area or just progress through into the future.

    No one predicted Grand Arena, and for years Territory Battle called upon GP growth. Your argument only applies had players had prior knowledge. Again, there’s more fair ways of going about it. A new game mode should have a new style of GP. Just like mods got their own mod energy, and ships got their own ship energy. I don’t understand the point of arguing against changes for more fair matchmaking, it’s a little bizarre.
    Member of ‘Thugs in White Armor’
  • Tanzos
    186 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    I disagree. It's entirely about the paper zombie issue. We can't level down characters, so some are disadvantaged in GA.

    A whale could invest in literally only meta characters and only have them at G12 with 0 purple characters. Say his GP equals 3mil. He's been playing so much that he has enough materials to go to 4mil or so but doesn't use those materials.

    I'm just throwing arbitrary numbers around to prove a point but GP has never been an indicator of roster usefulness. Which is I think the OP is making light of. The paper zombie was a strategy to make zombie more useful by NOT using resources on her. They changed that because they wanted players to use their resources for characters to be useful. But in GA, useful only extends to about G11... Making the G10 and below roster almost useless.

    Yes the whale I proposed earlier is strategically using his resources for elite characters only which gives him an advantage, but the dev comment that makes this post make sense is "Players don't have the ability to level down a character". Because someone invests in their roster, they are disadvantaged. That is the point.
  • Tanzos wrote: »
    I disagree. It's entirely about the paper zombie issue. We can't level down characters, so some are disadvantaged in GA.

    A whale could invest in literally only meta characters and only have them at G12 with 0 purple characters. Say his GP equals 3mil. He's been playing so much that he has enough materials to go to 4mil or so but doesn't use those materials.

    I'm just throwing arbitrary numbers around to prove a point but GP has never been an indicator of roster usefulness. Which is I think the OP is making light of. The paper zombie was a strategy to make zombie more useful by NOT using resources on her. They changed that because they wanted players to use their resources for characters to be useful. But in GA, useful only extends to about G11... Making the G10 and below roster almost useless.

    Yes the whale I proposed earlier is strategically using his resources for elite characters only which gives him an advantage, but the dev comment that makes this post make sense is "Players don't have the ability to level down a character". Because someone invests in their roster, they are disadvantaged. That is the point.

    Bingo, thank you.
    Member of ‘Thugs in White Armor’
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    GP has always been there, it was different before, so it was trying to represent more of a usefulness number and it was failing at that. They changed it to represent an investment. Each toon now has a power that represents how much you have invested in them.

    Your total GP is how much you have chosen to develop your roster, what you have available to use is about your choices.

    They state the core is about investing more into a character gives you more. This is absolutely true, even now with GA, and has nothing to do with the paper zombie issue.

    In their own words they are talking about wanting strategic development and strategic resource management to be a core tenant of the game and that it should always benefit the player to do so. This still holds true for GA. Some have done it more than others and are benefitting from it right now.

    For those of us that have wider rosters, there will be a longer development curve, but that has always been the nature of the game. Very few are ready for a new raid or game mode when it comes out and there are always "wasted resources" that hurt our development into the "new thing". We adapt, we develop and we all try to get better.

    At no point will anyone stop developing their roster and get or do better at GA, that would be against what they have stated as the "spirit of the game" issue stated with 'paper zombie'.

    “Power,” as in a character’s power, has always been in the game. Galactic Power, which reworked character power into something meaningful, was added for Territory Battles. A guild needs a lot of Galactic Power to complete Territory Battles, and many guild-oriented players have been growing their GP for that game mode.

    Players should not be “punished” for doing so, which is what I would describe being grossly mismatched in a brand new PvP game mode. There are ways around that. For example, making a brand new PvP GP number that only takes from characters that are G10+. Or just not using GP at all and matching people based on similar roster-wide gear levels, as I previously mentioned.

    GP has always existed and was the sum of a characters power. They changed the characters power to represent what investments have been made into the toon rather than the mulitpiers and other factors it used to be to try and make a toons power be representative of their power in a match.

    Players are being matched against someone who has made a similar amount of investment into their roster. The players choices on how they allocated that is the players choice. If someone has invested that into useful toons, or as the dev team stated in your quote used "strategic resource management", why shouldnt they have an advantage?

    Everyone had the same opportunities to make the same choices.

    Matchmaking should be neutral and should not judge the players choices, this is what GP does it is neutral. As with every development choice we make it effects our future. The players choices should make or break them as they move into a new area or just progress through into the future.

    No one predicted Grand Arena, and for years Territory Battle called upon GP growth. Your argument only applies had players had prior knowledge. Again, there’s more fair ways of going about it. A new game mode should have a new style of GP. Just like mods got their own mod energy, and ships got their own ship energy. I don’t understand the point of arguing against changes for more fair matchmaking, it’s a little bizarre.

    Because everyone's definition of "fair" is different...... Just like your interpretation of the devs zombie tenant is different.....

    I have a top heavy roster that took a lot more work and investment than someone with tons of useless G7 toons laying around that they never use.... Should I then be "punished" with a more difficult match up because I focus on a team of five at a time and get them g12 and zeta before moving on?..... Is that "fair"?

    You keep bringing up TB.... But skip over the fact that TW then came afterwards and has been around over a year.... Your artificial inflation, while helping your guild jump rewards brackets, actually decreases their chances of winning..... And, as far as TB goes, I get more points than many of my guildies that have 20-30% more gp than I do simply because my strong teams finish all stages of all combat missions.....

    The game has evolved, we have g12 plus, 6 dot mods etc.... The devs have simply introduced a game mode that encourages players to pursue them... The game has been trending this way for a long time... You either have to adapt or get left behind....
  • Kyno
    20556 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    GP has always been there, it was different before, so it was trying to represent more of a usefulness number and it was failing at that. They changed it to represent an investment. Each toon now has a power that represents how much you have invested in them.

    Your total GP is how much you have chosen to develop your roster, what you have available to use is about your choices.

    They state the core is about investing more into a character gives you more. This is absolutely true, even now with GA, and has nothing to do with the paper zombie issue.

    In their own words they are talking about wanting strategic development and strategic resource management to be a core tenant of the game and that it should always benefit the player to do so. This still holds true for GA. Some have done it more than others and are benefitting from it right now.

    For those of us that have wider rosters, there will be a longer development curve, but that has always been the nature of the game. Very few are ready for a new raid or game mode when it comes out and there are always "wasted resources" that hurt our development into the "new thing". We adapt, we develop and we all try to get better.

    At no point will anyone stop developing their roster and get or do better at GA, that would be against what they have stated as the "spirit of the game" issue stated with 'paper zombie'.

    “Power,” as in a character’s power, has always been in the game. Galactic Power, which reworked character power into something meaningful, was added for Territory Battles. A guild needs a lot of Galactic Power to complete Territory Battles, and many guild-oriented players have been growing their GP for that game mode.

    Players should not be “punished” for doing so, which is what I would describe being grossly mismatched in a brand new PvP game mode. There are ways around that. For example, making a brand new PvP GP number that only takes from characters that are G10+. Or just not using GP at all and matching people based on similar roster-wide gear levels, as I previously mentioned.

    GP has always existed and was the sum of a characters power. They changed the characters power to represent what investments have been made into the toon rather than the mulitpiers and other factors it used to be to try and make a toons power be representative of their power in a match.

    Players are being matched against someone who has made a similar amount of investment into their roster. The players choices on how they allocated that is the players choice. If someone has invested that into useful toons, or as the dev team stated in your quote used "strategic resource management", why shouldnt they have an advantage?

    Everyone had the same opportunities to make the same choices.

    Matchmaking should be neutral and should not judge the players choices, this is what GP does it is neutral. As with every development choice we make it effects our future. The players choices should make or break them as they move into a new area or just progress through into the future.

    No one predicted Grand Arena, and for years Territory Battle called upon GP growth. Your argument only applies had players had prior knowledge. Again, there’s more fair ways of going about it. A new game mode should have a new style of GP. Just like mods got their own mod energy, and ships got their own ship energy. I don’t understand the point of arguing against changes for more fair matchmaking, it’s a little bizarre.

    No it had nothing to do with prior knowledge. There was no reason to blindly push GP, beyond the point of usefulness. There are useful teams for TB, and TW, focusing on those would build GP and allow players to not just have fluff.

    If players saw a value in building GP for TB that is their choice, many of us did it, but we each us have to weigh the value of the investment.

    The GP matchmaking is fair. GP is the match of investment. Then the players choice on where it was invested was on them.

    Not liking the choices we made doesnt make the system unfair.
  • BubbaFett wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    GP has always been there, it was different before, so it was trying to represent more of a usefulness number and it was failing at that. They changed it to represent an investment. Each toon now has a power that represents how much you have invested in them.

    Your total GP is how much you have chosen to develop your roster, what you have available to use is about your choices.

    They state the core is about investing more into a character gives you more. This is absolutely true, even now with GA, and has nothing to do with the paper zombie issue.

    In their own words they are talking about wanting strategic development and strategic resource management to be a core tenant of the game and that it should always benefit the player to do so. This still holds true for GA. Some have done it more than others and are benefitting from it right now.

    For those of us that have wider rosters, there will be a longer development curve, but that has always been the nature of the game. Very few are ready for a new raid or game mode when it comes out and there are always "wasted resources" that hurt our development into the "new thing". We adapt, we develop and we all try to get better.

    At no point will anyone stop developing their roster and get or do better at GA, that would be against what they have stated as the "spirit of the game" issue stated with 'paper zombie'.

    “Power,” as in a character’s power, has always been in the game. Galactic Power, which reworked character power into something meaningful, was added for Territory Battles. A guild needs a lot of Galactic Power to complete Territory Battles, and many guild-oriented players have been growing their GP for that game mode.

    Players should not be “punished” for doing so, which is what I would describe being grossly mismatched in a brand new PvP game mode. There are ways around that. For example, making a brand new PvP GP number that only takes from characters that are G10+. Or just not using GP at all and matching people based on similar roster-wide gear levels, as I previously mentioned.

    GP has always existed and was the sum of a characters power. They changed the characters power to represent what investments have been made into the toon rather than the mulitpiers and other factors it used to be to try and make a toons power be representative of their power in a match.

    Players are being matched against someone who has made a similar amount of investment into their roster. The players choices on how they allocated that is the players choice. If someone has invested that into useful toons, or as the dev team stated in your quote used "strategic resource management", why shouldnt they have an advantage?

    Everyone had the same opportunities to make the same choices.

    Matchmaking should be neutral and should not judge the players choices, this is what GP does it is neutral. As with every development choice we make it effects our future. The players choices should make or break them as they move into a new area or just progress through into the future.

    No one predicted Grand Arena, and for years Territory Battle called upon GP growth. Your argument only applies had players had prior knowledge. Again, there’s more fair ways of going about it. A new game mode should have a new style of GP. Just like mods got their own mod energy, and ships got their own ship energy. I don’t understand the point of arguing against changes for more fair matchmaking, it’s a little bizarre.

    Because everyone's definition of "fair" is different...... Just like your interpretation of the devs zombie tenant is different.....

    I have a top heavy roster that took a lot more work and investment than someone with tons of useless G7 toons laying around that they never use.... Should I then be "punished" with a more difficult match up because I focus on a team of five at a time and get them g12 and zeta before moving on?..... Is that "fair"?

    You keep bringing up TB.... But skip over the fact that TW then came afterwards and has been around over a year.... Your artificial inflation, while helping your guild jump rewards brackets, actually decreases their chances of winning..... And, as far as TB goes, I get more points than many of my guildies that have 20-30% more gp than I do simply because my strong teams finish all stages of all combat missions.....

    The game has evolved, we have g12 plus, 6 dot mods etc.... The devs have simply introduced a game mode that encourages players to pursue them... The game has been trending this way for a long time... You either have to adapt or get left behind....

    There’s a reason a featherweight doesn’t fight a heavyweight in the UFC, even if they both have the same height.

    I’m simply opening dialogue based on prior dev logic and suggesting an improved matchmaking system. Regardless of where you stand, or your roster, it’s backwards to argue against improvement. Nobody should be punished, and I doubt the game programming is too rigid to come up with a better algorithm. Same versus same is all I’m asking for, and GP is not an indicator of that.
    Member of ‘Thugs in White Armor’
  • Kyno
    20556 posts Moderator
    Tanzos wrote: »
    I disagree. It's entirely about the paper zombie issue. We can't level down characters, so some are disadvantaged in GA.

    A whale could invest in literally only meta characters and only have them at G12 with 0 purple characters. Say his GP equals 3mil. He's been playing so much that he has enough materials to go to 4mil or so but doesn't use those materials.

    I'm just throwing arbitrary numbers around to prove a point but GP has never been an indicator of roster usefulness. Which is I think the OP is making light of. The paper zombie was a strategy to make zombie more useful by NOT using resources on her. They changed that because they wanted players to use their resources for characters to be useful. But in GA, useful only extends to about G11... Making the G10 and below roster almost useless.

    Yes the whale I proposed earlier is strategically using his resources for elite characters only which gives him an advantage, but the dev comment that makes this post make sense is "Players don't have the ability to level down a character". Because someone invests in their roster, they are disadvantaged. That is the point.

    What disadvantage?

    They didnt invest in useful characters, but should be catered to to make them more competitive?

    If you dont have a competitive roster, you are at a disadvantage because of your roster not because of your GP. That is a players choice.

    Paper zombie was because they stopped and had an advantage, no one is stopping and having an advantage, they developed strategically and have an advantage. That's the way it should be.

    Again, please read the dev statements:
    At its core, this strategy primarily breaks a core tenant/rule of the game - investing more deeply in a character should always be better in terms of gameplay outcomes; more health, more damage, more functionality, etc. This is a game about strategic resource management and you should be rewarded for strategically investing in a character. People who did this investment were then punished, because there is no way to “level down” a character. This doesn’t always perfectly hold up, but we do our best to hold to the spirit of that core pillar as much as we possibly can.

    No one is being punished for strategic investment.
  • I keep seeing repetitive rhetoric and nothing new added to the conversation. I said my peace.
    Member of ‘Thugs in White Armor’
  • TVF
    12655 posts Member
    Piece.
    TVF's guild is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • They could change GA so that it matches you against a mirror of your own roster, and people would complain that it’s somwhow “not fair” to them.
  • BubbaFett wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    GP has always been there, it was different before, so it was trying to represent more of a usefulness number and it was failing at that. They changed it to represent an investment. Each toon now has a power that represents how much you have invested in them.

    Your total GP is how much you have chosen to develop your roster, what you have available to use is about your choices.

    They state the core is about investing more into a character gives you more. This is absolutely true, even now with GA, and has nothing to do with the paper zombie issue.

    In their own words they are talking about wanting strategic development and strategic resource management to be a core tenant of the game and that it should always benefit the player to do so. This still holds true for GA. Some have done it more than others and are benefitting from it right now.

    For those of us that have wider rosters, there will be a longer development curve, but that has always been the nature of the game. Very few are ready for a new raid or game mode when it comes out and there are always "wasted resources" that hurt our development into the "new thing". We adapt, we develop and we all try to get better.

    At no point will anyone stop developing their roster and get or do better at GA, that would be against what they have stated as the "spirit of the game" issue stated with 'paper zombie'.

    “Power,” as in a character’s power, has always been in the game. Galactic Power, which reworked character power into something meaningful, was added for Territory Battles. A guild needs a lot of Galactic Power to complete Territory Battles, and many guild-oriented players have been growing their GP for that game mode.

    Players should not be “punished” for doing so, which is what I would describe being grossly mismatched in a brand new PvP game mode. There are ways around that. For example, making a brand new PvP GP number that only takes from characters that are G10+. Or just not using GP at all and matching people based on similar roster-wide gear levels, as I previously mentioned.

    GP has always existed and was the sum of a characters power. They changed the characters power to represent what investments have been made into the toon rather than the mulitpiers and other factors it used to be to try and make a toons power be representative of their power in a match.

    Players are being matched against someone who has made a similar amount of investment into their roster. The players choices on how they allocated that is the players choice. If someone has invested that into useful toons, or as the dev team stated in your quote used "strategic resource management", why shouldnt they have an advantage?

    Everyone had the same opportunities to make the same choices.

    Matchmaking should be neutral and should not judge the players choices, this is what GP does it is neutral. As with every development choice we make it effects our future. The players choices should make or break them as they move into a new area or just progress through into the future.

    No one predicted Grand Arena, and for years Territory Battle called upon GP growth. Your argument only applies had players had prior knowledge. Again, there’s more fair ways of going about it. A new game mode should have a new style of GP. Just like mods got their own mod energy, and ships got their own ship energy. I don’t understand the point of arguing against changes for more fair matchmaking, it’s a little bizarre.

    Because everyone's definition of "fair" is different...... Just like your interpretation of the devs zombie tenant is different.....

    I have a top heavy roster that took a lot more work and investment than someone with tons of useless G7 toons laying around that they never use.... Should I then be "punished" with a more difficult match up because I focus on a team of five at a time and get them g12 and zeta before moving on?..... Is that "fair"?

    You keep bringing up TB.... But skip over the fact that TW then came afterwards and has been around over a year.... Your artificial inflation, while helping your guild jump rewards brackets, actually decreases their chances of winning..... And, as far as TB goes, I get more points than many of my guildies that have 20-30% more gp than I do simply because my strong teams finish all stages of all combat missions.....

    The game has evolved, we have g12 plus, 6 dot mods etc.... The devs have simply introduced a game mode that encourages players to pursue them... The game has been trending this way for a long time... You either have to adapt or get left behind....

    There’s a reason a featherweight doesn’t fight a heavyweight in the UFC, even if they both have the same height.

    I’m simply opening dialogue based on prior dev logic and suggesting an improved matchmaking system. Regardless of where you stand, or your roster, it’s backwards to argue against improvement. Nobody should be punished, and I doubt the game programming is too rigid to come up with a better algorithm. Same versus same is all I’m asking for, and GP is not an indicator of that.

    Sure.... You want to compete in a lower division, then you should be prepared to receive lower rewards too..... But you appear to want to have your cake and eat it too....

    Your interpretation of dev logic is flawed..... The devs simply stated that investing in a character should make them stronger, not weaker (like it did for zombie)....

    Your idea of matching exact rosters would not make the game exciting, it would make it extremely boring ..... Not my idea of an improvement....
  • I agree with the OP. This isn't a question of investing in useful characters vs useless characters, if it were then obviously the advantage should go to those who invested in useful characters. Most toons can be upgraded to g6 or g7 without using any scarce "gate gear," so upgrading them to that point is not diminishing the ability to upgrade other toons. There is no reason to put players at a disadvantage for using excess gear pieces to boost their GP, when in the past we were encouraged to do just that (with TB deployment and such), especially when there is no way to undo the gear which had been applied for that purpose.
    Also, in my opinion, it goes against the philosophy of the game. This is at heart a collection game, the point being to collect all the characters and upgrade them. From the standpoint of the developers, it makes more sense for them to encourage us to develop the "fluff" characters as much as possible. CG doesn't make any money off of a toon that's left at g1 and lvl 1.
    Furthermore, and this is just my own personal opinion again, I think it's super lame to intentionally leave characters in a non-upgraded state, not because of resource management but because suppressing GP gives an advantage of some sort. I do not believe that is a style of play which should be encouraged by the development team.
  • RandomSithLord
    656 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Somebody has mentioned in another post how older players inevitably have their GP increased by toons that were once a must have and over time became completely useless. A newer player, whether they are p2p or f2p, has no use for toons like Luminara, Sidious and likely not even Lando.
    The fact that I, and many other players are sitting on a G11 Lando, that I cannot place on defense nor use it for offense because he is next to useless means that we already have ~16k GP that does not help us with anything. Multiply it with another 10-20 toons and you'll see how that poses a problem. Now I'm not complaining about the investment itself, Lando had his use when he was arena meta 2 years ago and you could hardly beat the last tier of credit heist without him back then. This does not change the fact that toons like him cause us to have a disadvantage now.
    While you can say that at least I made some use of Lando or STH back in the day, there are still toons like Lumi, Sidious, Clone Wars Chewy, that have always been bad, but in the early state of the game people had no choice but to farm them. I have them all at ~lvl 70 and G8, for what use? They did not help players back then to stay competitive, you just couldn't have any other toons unless you paid. There's also no point in investing in them any further, G12, lvl 85 and zetas won't make them any better, so they will likely stay at 70 forever, with 10k useless GP for every single one of them.
    If you start the game today, you can easily avoid to invest in jawas, useless jedi like Kit, Ima-Gun Di (you didn't have a large variety of jedi back then, old players likely have some very useless ones at G8 for the first few Yoda events) and so on.
    While smart resource management definitely should offer you an advantage in GA, GW, the fact that many players have tons of "fluff" GP does not mean that they made poor choices. They might have just started to play this game "too" early.
  • Kyno
    20556 posts Moderator
    Somebody has mentioned in another post how older players inevitably have their GP increased by toons that were once a must have and over time became completely useless. A newer player, whether they are p2p or f2p, has no use for toons like Luminara, Sidious and likely not even Lando.
    The fact that I, and many other players are sitting on a G11 Lando, that I cannot place on defense nor use it for offense because he is next to useless means that we already have ~16k GP that does not help us with anything. Multiply it with another 10-20 toons and you'll see how that poses a problem. Now I'm not complaining about the investment itself, Lando had his use when he was arena meta 2 years ago and you could hardly beat the last tier of credit heist without him back then. This does not change the fact that toons like him cause us to have a disadvantage now.
    While you can say that at least I made some use of Lando or STH back in the day, there are still toons like Lumi, Sidious, Clone Wars Chewy, that have always been bad, but in the early state of the game people had no choice but to farm them. I have them all at ~lvl 70 and G8, for what use? They did not help players back then to stay competitive, you just couldn't have any other toons unless you paid. There's also no point in investing in them any further, G12, lvl 85 and zetas won't make them any better, so they will likely stay at 70 forever, with 10k useless GP for every single one of them.
    If you start the game today, you can easily avoid to invest in jawas, useless jedi like Kit, Ima-Gun Di (you didn't have a large variety of jedi back then, old players likely have some very useless ones at G8 for the first few Yoda events) and so on.
    While smart resource management definitely should offer you an advantage in GA, GW, the fact that many players have tons of "fluff" GP does not mean that they made poor choices. They might have just started to play this game "too" early.

    I use lando, sth, droids and others to great effect in both TW and GA. Even my jawa go on defense at times.

    Players moving on from those old toons and investing in others because "those old toons are useless" is the players choice and part of the percieved fluff problem. Those are not fluff, they are tools and you just need to know how to use them. Yes not every toon is 100% useful in every game mode we all know that, but people write off toons in TW and GA too often.

    The main point about fluff is also more about the level 50, 7*, geared and modded toons people did for TB, but again that was a choice and if people didnt stop when they realized that you cant just force all the stars in a month with junk toons and TW matching is based on GP and resources get tight.....at some point you have to start weighing investment vs reward. Tb will be around for a while and eventually getting there with GP will be possible, but useful teams in that game mode get you more points and GP, so that would be the wiser investment.
  • Kyno
    20556 posts Moderator
    I agree with the OP. This isn't a question of investing in useful characters vs useless characters, if it were then obviously the advantage should go to those who invested in useful characters. Most toons can be upgraded to g6 or g7 without using any scarce "gate gear," so upgrading them to that point is not diminishing the ability to upgrade other toons. There is no reason to put players at a disadvantage for using excess gear pieces to boost their GP, when in the past we were encouraged to do just that (with TB deployment and such), especially when there is no way to undo the gear which had been applied for that purpose.
    Also, in my opinion, it goes against the philosophy of the game. This is at heart a collection game, the point being to collect all the characters and upgrade them. From the standpoint of the developers, it makes more sense for them to encourage us to develop the "fluff" characters as much as possible. CG doesn't make any money off of a toon that's left at g1 and lvl 1.
    Furthermore, and this is just my own personal opinion again, I think it's super lame to intentionally leave characters in a non-upgraded state, not because of resource management but because suppressing GP gives an advantage of some sort. I do not believe that is a style of play which should be encouraged by the development team.

    Farming those toons, gearing and leveling all cost credits and energy (and possibly crystals), which are some relatively gated commodities.

    It's not just about the gear we have thousands of.
  • RandomSithLord
    656 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Kyno wrote: »
    I use lando, sth, droids and others to great effect in both TW and GA. Even my jawa go on defense at times.

    Players moving on from those old toons and investing in others because "those old toons are useless" is the players choice and part of the percieved fluff problem. Those are not fluff, they are tools and you just need to know how to use them. Yes not every toon is 100% useful in every game mode we all know that, but people write off toons in TW and GA too.

    The moment I have 6 G11-G12 defensive and 6 offensive teams that all synergize better without Lando, or Jawas, these toons become contributors to fluff GP, matching me with possible opponents that have the exact same or similar 12 teams but all G12 and more zetas.
    But my main point was not Lando anyway. Those lvl 70 G8 toons like DS, Lumi, whatever 5 dark side and light side toons early players needed to complete battles but were never useful (they were the only options available) are the core of the problem I'm trying to point out. Ever since there is Phoenix, nobody needs CW Chewy, Luminara, JC for starter toons, while older players are stuck with them at G8 without the intent of increasing GP for an extra star in TB.
  • I wasn’t aware that moderators were allowed to troll.
    Member of ‘Thugs in White Armor’
  • Kyno
    20556 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    I use lando, sth, droids and others to great effect in both TW and GA. Even my jawa go on defense at times.

    Players moving on from those old toons and investing in others because "those old toons are useless" is the players choice and part of the percieved fluff problem. Those are not fluff, they are tools and you just need to know how to use them. Yes not every toon is 100% useful in every game mode we all know that, but people write off toons in TW and GA too.

    The moment I have 6 G11-G12 defensive and 6 offensive teams that all synergize better without Lando, or Jawas, these toons become contributors to fluff GP, matching me with possible opponents that have the exact same or similar 12 teams but all G12 and more zetas.
    But my main point was not Lando anyway. Those lvl 70 G8 toons like DS, Lumi, whatever 5 dark side and light side toons early players needed to complete battles but were never useful (they were the only options available) are the core of the problem I'm trying to point out. Ever since there is Phoenix, nobody needs CW Chewy, Luminara, JC for starter toons, while older players are stuck with them at G8 without the intent of increasing GP for an extra star in TB.

    That sounds like a good startegy, and it caused the same issues in TW, but there are others there to make up for that. Here you feel that plan more because it all rests on your shoulders.

    Now you need a different long term plan, and yes some are already on that path due to starting the game at different times, but that doesnt mean that they need to cater to anyone to make sure they are more competitive. Adapt, develop and build a different plan, just like every other new game mode. If this us the one that's important to you now, grab the bull by the horns.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    I use lando, sth, droids and others to great effect in both TW and GA. Even my jawa go on defense at times.

    Players moving on from those old toons and investing in others because "those old toons are useless" is the players choice and part of the percieved fluff problem. Those are not fluff, they are tools and you just need to know how to use them. Yes not every toon is 100% useful in every game mode we all know that, but people write off toons in TW and GA too.

    The moment I have 6 G11-G12 defensive and 6 offensive teams that all synergize better without Lando, or Jawas, these toons become contributors to fluff GP, matching me with possible opponents that have the exact same or similar 12 teams but all G12 and more zetas.
    But my main point was not Lando anyway. Those lvl 70 G8 toons like DS, Lumi, whatever 5 dark side and light side toons early players needed to complete battles but were never useful (they were the only options available) are the core of the problem I'm trying to point out. Ever since there is Phoenix, nobody needs CW Chewy, Luminara, JC for starter toons, while older players are stuck with them at G8 without the intent of increasing GP for an extra star in TB.

    Your perceived issue is based on your playstyle, that is it.

    You can either develop those chars up, or not, either way. You can’t cry about having chars from three years ago now when they are no longer convenient. Trying to claim being disadvantaged because you have been playing too long is preposterous. Most players will continue to build and develop all aspects of their roster. Because once you make your arena squad maxed, and raids are a snap,. . What else do you do? Stare at a screen? You build factions, and squads, continually , this allows great flexibility and allows you to meet new events and challenges head on.


    Advocating for ten or fifteen squads only to be built is narrow minded and simplistic in the extreme. If you could take all your so called fluff, what a joke that term is on here, and eliminate it. .. are you prepared to suffer the consequences of being short handed to tackle new events? Or is that going to be the cause of another batch of why we need to farm this now cuz GA made us reset “fluff”.

    If you are that’s perturbed about the imagined “fluff” issue, then make a new account, and only farm those 12 or so synergized squads. That will take care of that “fluff” issue right?
  • Liath
    3734 posts Member
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    GP has always been there, it was different before, so it was trying to represent more of a usefulness number and it was failing at that. They changed it to represent an investment. Each toon now has a power that represents how much you have invested in them.

    Your total GP is how much you have chosen to develop your roster, what you have available to use is about your choices.

    They state the core is about investing more into a character gives you more. This is absolutely true, even now with GA, and has nothing to do with the paper zombie issue.

    In their own words they are talking about wanting strategic development and strategic resource management to be a core tenant of the game and that it should always benefit the player to do so. This still holds true for GA. Some have done it more than others and are benefitting from it right now.

    For those of us that have wider rosters, there will be a longer development curve, but that has always been the nature of the game. Very few are ready for a new raid or game mode when it comes out and there are always "wasted resources" that hurt our development into the "new thing". We adapt, we develop and we all try to get better.

    At no point will anyone stop developing their roster and get or do better at GA, that would be against what they have stated as the "spirit of the game" issue stated with 'paper zombie'.

    “Power,” as in a character’s power, has always been in the game. Galactic Power, which reworked character power into something meaningful, was added for Territory Battles. A guild needs a lot of Galactic Power to complete Territory Battles, and many guild-oriented players have been growing their GP for that game mode.

    Players should not be “punished” for doing so, which is what I would describe being grossly mismatched in a brand new PvP game mode. There are ways around that. For example, making a brand new PvP GP number that only takes from characters that are G10+. Or just not using GP at all and matching people based on similar roster-wide gear levels, as I previously mentioned.

    GP has always existed and was the sum of a characters power. They changed the characters power to represent what investments have been made into the toon rather than the mulitpiers and other factors it used to be to try and make a toons power be representative of their power in a match.

    Players are being matched against someone who has made a similar amount of investment into their roster. The players choices on how they allocated that is the players choice. If someone has invested that into useful toons, or as the dev team stated in your quote used "strategic resource management", why shouldnt they have an advantage?

    Everyone had the same opportunities to make the same choices.

    Matchmaking should be neutral and should not judge the players choices, this is what GP does it is neutral. As with every development choice we make it effects our future. The players choices should make or break them as they move into a new area or just progress through into the future.

    No one predicted Grand Arena, and for years Territory Battle called upon GP growth. Your argument only applies had players had prior knowledge. Again, there’s more fair ways of going about it. A new game mode should have a new style of GP. Just like mods got their own mod energy, and ships got their own ship energy. I don’t understand the point of arguing against changes for more fair matchmaking, it’s a little bizarre.

    Because everyone's definition of "fair" is different...... Just like your interpretation of the devs zombie tenant is different.....

    I have a top heavy roster that took a lot more work and investment than someone with tons of useless G7 toons laying around that they never use.... Should I then be "punished" with a more difficult match up because I focus on a team of five at a time and get them g12 and zeta before moving on?..... Is that "fair"?

    You keep bringing up TB.... But skip over the fact that TW then came afterwards and has been around over a year.... Your artificial inflation, while helping your guild jump rewards brackets, actually decreases their chances of winning..... And, as far as TB goes, I get more points than many of my guildies that have 20-30% more gp than I do simply because my strong teams finish all stages of all combat missions.....

    The game has evolved, we have g12 plus, 6 dot mods etc.... The devs have simply introduced a game mode that encourages players to pursue them... The game has been trending this way for a long time... You either have to adapt or get left behind....

    There’s a reason a featherweight doesn’t fight a heavyweight in the UFC, even if they both have the same height.


    This is a game mode that matches you on one metric, similar to matching on weight class. It doesn't take into account every possible other metric on which one can be matched, and that's what people are complaining about. It's like saying "why am I only matched on weight class, matching should also consider how long I've been competing and how many hours a week I have to practice."

    In regular squad arena you are in a grouping with people who match you on a completely different metric - length of time playing the game. As a result you compete against people who may have twice your GP, have spent a ton of money, etc. Is that more or less fair?
  • I would like to hear an actual developer give their input on this topic, such as @CG_TopHat
    Member of ‘Thugs in White Armor’
  • TVF
    12655 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    I wasn’t aware that moderators were allowed to troll.

    You should look up the definition of "troll."

    Kyno is the most straightforward moderator you could possibly ask for.
    I would like to hear an actual developer give their input on this topic, such as @CG_TopHat

    But if you don't like what he has to say you'll call him a troll too.
    TVF's guild is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • RandomSithLord
    656 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Advocating for ten or fifteen squads only to be built is narrow minded and simplistic in the extreme. If you could take all your so called fluff, what a joke that term is on here, and eliminate it. .. are you prepared to suffer the consequences of being short handed to tackle new events? Or is that going to be the cause of another batch of why we need to farm this now cuz GA made us reset “fluff”.

    If you are that’s perturbed about the imagined “fluff” issue, then make a new account, and only farm those 12 or so synergized squads. That will take care of that “fluff” issue right?

    By no means did I say to eliminate unused toons, or downgrade them, strip them of gear whatever you prefer. I'm simply trying to suggest that there is a better way of matchmaking then pure GP. I did not suggest to develop only 10-15 squads either.
    Also, I had no intent to complain or play victim here, I'm rather satisfied with my roster in general and my GA match ups were decent so far. I'm well aware on what teams need to be developed to stay competitive (and Lumi is still not one of the candidates and likely never will be. I hope it's obvious I don't have a particular problem with this toon, it's just an example everybody can understand). But there is no way you can't see a flaw in a system that rewards a player who keeps the rest of his roster except for the top teams at g1, lvl1, 3-5*. I never suggested downgrading toons, but perhaps matchmaking could be based more on top x characters' power, not the whole roster since half of it will not get used. Theoretically it's an advantage to have more teams, but in reality you will still use a certain few. There's no point in throwing G7-8 toons at a leftover G11-G12 team, they'll never take it down.
    I think I can make remark on the current matchmaking system without making you think I'm crying about it, giving my roster as a subjective example.
    Finally, regarding your comment about 10-15 teams..that's basically what you need right now. It's enough for all PVE events and in GA if you can't take most teams down in one-two goes, it's most likely over anyway. The only place you might need more than that is TW for now, which is still more for F2P and low paying players than they can develop before metas shift.


    Post edited by RandomSithLord on
  • In the end it boils down to playstyle, and what your goals are. No one is being punished or disadvantaged for having a developed roster. If you wish to try be the best at GA, then work towards that goal same as every other player will.

    Personally, I still play the same way I have for years. I don’t care about this new in “fluff” conspiracy, because it’s a crock. I will continue to build my chars as I always have, and I will continue to win or lose in GA as it happens.

    Those bottom chars aren’t extremely useful against top meta squads no, However, they don’t come into play Either. Either need you nor your opponent use them, typically, and everyone uses their top squads. Which at that point comes down to your modding and how well you can devise a counter squad.

    I see no value in a different more complex matching method. Because there is no way to match exact roster to exact roster. Me and you could have the same exact number of chars, and similar levels, and gear, but different mods, Then what? Overall, a simple matching using GP gets the closest average comparisons, versus other options. And really, if you look at GA as it’s billed, .. it’s a challenge, never mind the newest content (endgame style due to lvl 85 only ) , so really, in a battle do you want to see who has used their resources and developed the most flexible roster, . . Or do you want mirror matches of everything ? ( that’s TW btw).

    Having diversity and differences by using a simple matching allows for variety and options to the best degree able. Does it mean you will lose some matches? Yup, that’s ok, does it mean you will win some matches? Yup, that’s ok too. Does it make you look at new ideas and see if you can pull off things in GA that’s you would not dream of trying in your arena, for fear of losing rank, or things you would not try in TW, for fear of not clearing a battle first time, . That’s not a bad thing, it’s a good thing. It shows a new way to look at existing methods.

    And really. .. if you have been playing for any length of time. The variety alone should be a welcome change of pace from the meta nonsense that permeates the rest of the modes save Tb,
  • TVF wrote: »
    I wasn’t aware that moderators were allowed to troll.

    You should look up the definition of "troll."

    Kyno is the most straightforward moderator you could possibly ask for.
    I would like to hear an actual developer give their input on this topic, such as @CG_TopHat

    But if you don't like what he has to say you'll call him a troll too.

    So says an actual troll? “Piece” was it?

    Repeating the same facile argument to every poster who disagrees while allowing troll posts, like yours, to persist are actions that border more on trolling than moderating a conversation, as a moderator should do.
    TVF wrote: »
    Piece.
    Member of ‘Thugs in White Armor’
  • Liath wrote: »

    There’s a reason a featherweight doesn’t fight a heavyweight in the UFC, even if they both have the same height.


    This is a game mode that matches you on one metric, similar to matching on weight class. It doesn't take into account every possible other metric on which one can be matched, and that's what people are complaining about. It's like saying "why am I only matched on weight class, matching should also consider how long I've been competing and how many hours a week I have to practice."

    In regular squad arena you are in a grouping with people who match you on a completely different metric - length of time playing the game. As a result you compete against people who may have twice your GP, have spent a ton of money, etc. Is that more or less fair?

    To take it further, GP is precisely the same thing as weight class. You fight in your weight class (or GP range) regardless of how much of your weight is muscle versus fat.
  • In the end it boils down to playstyle, and what your goals are. No one is being punished or disadvantaged for having a developed roster. If you wish to try be the best at GA, then work towards that goal same as every other player will.

    Personally, I still play the same way I have for years. I don’t care about this new in “fluff” conspiracy, because it’s a crock. I will continue to build my chars as I always have, and I will continue to win or lose in GA as it happens.

    Those bottom chars aren’t extremely useful against top meta squads no, However, they don’t come into play Either. Either need you nor your opponent use them, typically, and everyone uses their top squads. Which at that point comes down to your modding and how well you can devise a counter squad.

    I see no value in a different more complex matching method. Because there is no way to match exact roster to exact roster. Me and you could have the same exact number of chars, and similar levels, and gear, but different mods, Then what? Overall, a simple matching using GP gets the closest average comparisons, versus other options. And really, if you look at GA as it’s billed, .. it’s a challenge, never mind the newest content (endgame style due to lvl 85 only ) , so really, in a battle do you want to see who has used their resources and developed the most flexible roster, . . Or do you want mirror matches of everything ? ( that’s TW btw).

    Having diversity and differences by using a simple matching allows for variety and options to the best degree able. Does it mean you will lose some matches? Yup, that’s ok, does it mean you will win some matches? Yup, that’s ok too. Does it make you look at new ideas and see if you can pull off things in GA that’s you would not dream of trying in your arena, for fear of losing rank, or things you would not try in TW, for fear of not clearing a battle first time, . That’s not a bad thing, it’s a good thing. It shows a new way to look at existing methods.

    And really. .. if you have been playing for any length of time. The variety alone should be a welcome change of pace from the meta nonsense that permeates the rest of the modes save Tb,

    Matching people based on the amount of G12/G11/G10/etc. would pit people more fairly and evenly than raw GP; you don’t need to match people based on exact same characters, but on the amount of each gear level.

    For example, using arbitrary numbers:

    Scenerio one: Player A has 60 G12 characters while the rest of his/her roster sits at G0, level 1, unstarred. His/her account hoards resources that could take all those undeveloped characters to G8, 7* but he purposefully chose not to for the PvP advantage in Grand Arena.

    Player B has 10 G12 characters, a few G11, but all the other characters on his/her roster are G8/G9, 7*, modded up, etc. But they both have the same GP so they’re pitted against one another.

    Player A is going to crush Player B because Player A has six times as many G12.

    Compare that to scenerio two: Player A has 20 G12 characters (CLS, JTR, etc.) while Player B has 20 G12 characters (CW Chewbacca, CUP, etc.). Player A should theoretically crush Player B because of strategic resource investment, not by purposefully keeping his/her GP deflated for an advantage.
    Member of ‘Thugs in White Armor’
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