Apply Paper NS Zombie Logic to Grand Arena—a better matchmaking algorithm is needed

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  • Waqui
    4568 posts Member
    "Fluff GP" was always a disadvantage in TW when getting matched up. A guild with a lot of "fluff GP" would always have a disadvantage against a guild with same total GP but little or no "fluff GP. It's nothing new. The new thing is, that now players notice it. Previously the disadvantage wasn't obvious. It is now. That's the only difference.

    In regards to the original post:
    GA match making and the paper zombie issue are two completely different issues. The disadvantage of "Fluff GP" doesn't change the fact that investing more deeply in a character is an advantage in gameplay outcomes for that character. That character becomes stronger - also in GA. It may not become strong enough to make a difference on the GA result, but it's stronger.
  • Liath wrote: »

    There’s a reason a featherweight doesn’t fight a heavyweight in the UFC, even if they both have the same height.


    This is a game mode that matches you on one metric, similar to matching on weight class. It doesn't take into account every possible other metric on which one can be matched, and that's what people are complaining about. It's like saying "why am I only matched on weight class, matching should also consider how long I've been competing and how many hours a week I have to practice."

    In regular squad arena you are in a grouping with people who match you on a completely different metric - length of time playing the game. As a result you compete against people who may have twice your GP, have spent a ton of money, etc. Is that more or less fair?

    To take it further, GP is precisely the same thing as weight class. You fight in your weight class (or GP range) regardless of how much of your weight is muscle versus fat.

    Well done!
  • Perhaps a more accurate metaphor would be a heavyweight fighter who only put one foot on the scale during weigh in to match against a featherweight opponent.
    Member of ‘Thugs in White Armor’
  • Tanzos
    168 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »

    There’s a reason a featherweight doesn’t fight a heavyweight in the UFC, even if they both have the same height.


    This is a game mode that matches you on one metric, similar to matching on weight class. It doesn't take into account every possible other metric on which one can be matched, and that's what people are complaining about. It's like saying "why am I only matched on weight class, matching should also consider how long I've been competing and how many hours a week I have to practice."

    In regular squad arena you are in a grouping with people who match you on a completely different metric - length of time playing the game. As a result you compete against people who may have twice your GP, have spent a ton of money, etc. Is that more or less fair?

    To take it further, GP is precisely the same thing as weight class. You fight in your weight class (or GP range) regardless of how much of your weight is muscle versus fat.

    Well done!

    Yes but you can work out and trim the fat. In this game you're stuck with it forever. Once you get fat, there's no going back.
  • Liath
    3040 posts Member
    Perhaps a more accurate metaphor would be a heavyweight fighter who only put one foot on the scale during weigh in to match against a featherweight opponent.

    That's called cheating. Nothing about somebody having a lean roster involves cheating.
    Tanzos wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »

    There’s a reason a featherweight doesn’t fight a heavyweight in the UFC, even if they both have the same height.


    This is a game mode that matches you on one metric, similar to matching on weight class. It doesn't take into account every possible other metric on which one can be matched, and that's what people are complaining about. It's like saying "why am I only matched on weight class, matching should also consider how long I've been competing and how many hours a week I have to practice."

    In regular squad arena you are in a grouping with people who match you on a completely different metric - length of time playing the game. As a result you compete against people who may have twice your GP, have spent a ton of money, etc. Is that more or less fair?

    To take it further, GP is precisely the same thing as weight class. You fight in your weight class (or GP range) regardless of how much of your weight is muscle versus fat.

    Well done!

    Yes but you can work out and trim the fat. In this game you're stuck with it forever. Once you get fat, there's no going back.

    The more you focus on the strong/relevant part of your roster for GA the less that fat is going to matter. 100k of worthless GP might matter a lot if you're at 1 million total, but if you don't needlessly increase the fat, that same 100k is basically a rounding error when you hit 4 million.
  • Tanzos wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »

    There’s a reason a featherweight doesn’t fight a heavyweight in the UFC, even if they both have the same height.


    This is a game mode that matches you on one metric, similar to matching on weight class. It doesn't take into account every possible other metric on which one can be matched, and that's what people are complaining about. It's like saying "why am I only matched on weight class, matching should also consider how long I've been competing and how many hours a week I have to practice."

    In regular squad arena you are in a grouping with people who match you on a completely different metric - length of time playing the game. As a result you compete against people who may have twice your GP, have spent a ton of money, etc. Is that more or less fair?

    To take it further, GP is precisely the same thing as weight class. You fight in your weight class (or GP range) regardless of how much of your weight is muscle versus fat.

    Well done!

    Yes but you can work out and trim the fat. In this game you're stuck with it forever. Once you get fat, there's no going back.

    You can also workout and gain more muscle and lower your body fat percentage..... There is nothing stopping you from swaying your roster development towards GA if that is what is important to you.....
  • Tanzos
    168 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Let me give it you all straight. I'm going to use me as an example.

    This current GA I sit at 3,999,000 GP. I have every character at purple, most with unleveled mods, majority of abilities up to 7 all activitated except Revan. My opponent has far more G12, than I do but less G10 and below.

    With this GA, we had to set 6 defenses. I saw his roster and put aside 6-7 offense teams to ensure my offense could clear. The left I had for defense was nothing short of dismal. Bastilla and Bossk were pretty much my only threats. With his roster, he can use 2 powerhouse squads to beat Bastilla and Bossk and the rest of my squads are essentially a cakewalk with the rest of his roster. However his defenses, forced me to make sure I had 6 powerhouse offense squads to win, which in turn left me short on defense. The ONLY way I could win was if he messed up against Bastilla or Bossk.

    The victory is completely out of my hands and relies on the other person messing up. I went perfect on offense but he went more perfect on offense cause 4/6 of my remaining defense characters weren't threatening. I even beat his Revan first try. But I did the best I could and lost cause I literally don't have the same amount of G12/11 characters as him. It's as simple as that. He didn't "strategize" better than me, he just had more G12/11 to put on defense forcing me to save more for offense.

    Because they force a certain amount of squads depending on your GP, in this case 6, it puts your top ~60 characters against each other. 30 on defense, 30 on offense. Really, only ~60 characters were used in the entire fight and guess who had the better ~60? The remaining 80 or so were a complete non factor. If we had to set 12 squads and use ~120 characters, I would have the advantage. But that's NOT going to happen if I had to guess.

    Do you see the difference and why this topic keeps coming up?

    This game mode is about strategy, what strategy could I have used to win in that moment? Can someone tell me?

    Disclaimer: I'm not upset I lost, I accept it because it is what it is. But the question remains, what strategy could I implement to win?
  • Bubblechomp
    576 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Putting an attack limit on offense in Grand Arena would perhaps be a half-way fix. It would mandate both players having an equal opportunity despite GP. For example, if there are 6 teams on defense, you would only get 6 attacks on offense. Whether you use two of those attacks on one team or one for one. It would add more strategic planning that many of you seem to yearn for, and pit muscle against muscle despite fat. It would make lowering body fat percentage easier.

    There’s plenty of people smarter than me that can probably come up with better solutions. But I shouldn’t hear guildies tell me they don’t want to grow their roster for the GP increase because it’ll put them at a disadvantage in a PvP event, as that hurts the guild in TB. That goes against the spirit of the game. Players should be rewarded for growing the entirety of their roster. And again, the same logic applies to Paper NS Zombie hence why they changed her to encourage fattening her, not keeping her lean for the PvP advantage.
    Member of ‘Thugs in White Armor’
  • Tanzos
    168 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Honestly, I'd like to see 3 Grand Arenas in a row where we have to set 14 defensive squads and 2 ships squads. Then we'll see who has the deeper roster.

    Then 3 GA in a row where we set 6 on 6 or whatever like it is now and see who has the better top of their roster. That to me seems fair.

    THAT is what should be done. GP matched exactly, but full rosters used sometimes, top end of rosters used the other.
  • Tanzos wrote: »
    Honestly, I'd like to see 3 Grand Arenas in a row where we have to set 14 defensive squads and 2 ships squads. Then we'll see who has the deeper roster.

    Then 3 GA in a row where we set 6 on 6 or whatever like it is now and see who has the better top of their roster. That to me seems fair.

    THAT is what should be done. GP matched exactly, but full rosters used sometimes, top end of rosters used the other.

    I like that idea, too. Alternating breadth versus depth to encourage a balance.
    Member of ‘Thugs in White Armor’
  • Tanzos wrote: »
    Honestly, I'd like to see 3 Grand Arenas in a row where we have to set 14 defensive squads and 2 ships squads. Then we'll see who has the deeper roster.

    Then 3 GA in a row where we set 6 on 6 or whatever like it is now and see who has the better top of their roster. That to me seems fair.

    THAT is what should be done. GP matched exactly, but full rosters used sometimes, top end of rosters used the other.

    That is it. I think the ideal game mode was not found yet. 3v3 without ships was terribly matched with total GP being a factor in match making.
    There could be 2-300k differrence in character GP because of ships while you could not use your fleet at all.
    5v5 is also bad. 4v4 to 7v7 of teams of 5 toons is not a clever match up because usually it does not dig down to characters below g10. At least not for both players. One could be with 40 G12-s and 0 G10-s and one can be the same GP but evenly distributed between G12-8.
    Some close to ideal match making could be a 3v3 with fleets included. Perhaps fleets with less than 8 ships, so you can set more than 1 fleet. This way the fact that you only focused on a few teams of 5 with G12 and left the rest at 0 with lvl 1 could be a disadvantage. A team of 3 toons of G11-12 could be weaker than G9-10 with real synergy.
    My only problem is that having the lower part of your roster at G0, lv 1, 3* should never pose an advantage to having them at G7, lv 50, no matter how useless they are in other game modes.
  • Kyno
    19211 posts Moderator
    Tanzos wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »

    There’s a reason a featherweight doesn’t fight a heavyweight in the UFC, even if they both have the same height.


    This is a game mode that matches you on one metric, similar to matching on weight class. It doesn't take into account every possible other metric on which one can be matched, and that's what people are complaining about. It's like saying "why am I only matched on weight class, matching should also consider how long I've been competing and how many hours a week I have to practice."

    In regular squad arena you are in a grouping with people who match you on a completely different metric - length of time playing the game. As a result you compete against people who may have twice your GP, have spent a ton of money, etc. Is that more or less fair?

    To take it further, GP is precisely the same thing as weight class. You fight in your weight class (or GP range) regardless of how much of your weight is muscle versus fat.

    Well done!

    Yes but you can work out and trim the fat. In this game you're stuck with it forever. Once you get fat, there's no going back.

    Correct but you can correct the ratio. Building up useful toons means you can increase the usefulness to fluff.

    In the same example being used this would be adjusting the BMI.
  • @Kyno your thoughts on Tanzos’ idea?
    Member of ‘Thugs in White Armor’
  • Kyno
    19211 posts Moderator
    Kyno your thoughts on Tanzos’ idea?

    I'm down with any variations on GA, I think that helps keep people going. Any matching system is not going to keep everyone happy. So change the rules and keep everyone working.

    I have a wide roster, I have been working since TW to help focus it to the tip of the sword.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno your thoughts on Tanzos’ idea?

    I'm down with any variations on GA, I think that helps keep people going. Any matching system is not going to keep everyone happy. So change the rules and keep everyone working.

    I have a wide roster, I have been working since TW to help focus it to the tip of the sword.

    I am down with this as well...... As a very "top heavy" guy, I am actually not.looking for an advantage...... I just think 90% of these complaints are unwarrented, and also feel .let players seem to feel every event should cater to their particular roster style......
  • I really don't understand the controversy here.

    The algorithm works, but it could always work better. Matching by raw GP overly-rewards one style of play to the point where the other becomes untenable. Name a drawback to having a narrow roster. Platoons? Nope--my opponent last round had a bunch of characters at level 1, gear 1, 7*. Name a benefit to having a broad roster--you're in a better position to not have to panic farm, but also you can't go back. A narrow roster can level up a character they have by throwing horded resources at them, a broad roster can't ungear someone who has outlived their usefulness.

    The folks who think it's perfectly fine to just keep doing this the way it's been done are the ones who are winning on a regular basis. There's no reason to leave the matchmaking algorithm imprecise when you can add precision to it and make it even better.
    Ceterum censeo Patientia esse meliat.
  • One thing I have yet to see come up on any of these threads, and this not even a complaint, because I “should” be on of those complaining (month 1 player, and I do consider myself to be carrying probably a bit more than the average amount of ‘fluff’ in my roster, feel free to look if you don’t believe me!)

    https://swgoh.gg/p/965332268/characters/

    Lots of ‘old’ raid teams - whether just outdated, or only partially developed before a more effective team came along, all the early mod challenge teams, half developed g7 and 8 characters out the wazoo for TB points, max level ships with g6 pilots, etc.), but maybe it is because I am nearing the benchmark (3.8M GP) that it doesn’t bother me as much - there is an endgame point where fluff no longer matters built into the system already; it is just (potentially quite a lot) farther away for some than for others.

    After 4 Million GP, your fluff no longer matters as much.
    Will it still affect your matchups for awhile, very much yes, because you still won’t be as effective as a lean roster at that same GP.
    But you are squad capped at that point, and it is on you to bring the focus to the upper crust of your roster of effective toons, both through gearing and mods, because you won’t be using your ‘full’ roster anymore (or at least not effectively, you are never going to clear that zeta bossk BH squad if your first few attacks don’t get it, or at least cripple it, doesn’t matter if you throw 300,000 or 3,000,000 more GP at it, g12 jawas, tuskens, and seperatists, etc. just aren’t going to take them down, the toons are outdated, and they no longer have the kit and abilities to do it).

    Is it more of a challenge for some of us than others, yes.

    I personally find the challenge engaging, I have been a solid 6th or 7th in terms of upper end roster strength in all three of my GAs thus far, and still managed to go 2 and 1 in the first two, and won my first round in this one.

    But really, look at the rewards (and I think that is why they are comparatively low), so what if you go 1 and 2, and the person with the ‘lean’ roster (who very probably isn’t in your arena shard anyways) goes 3 and 0 - over the course of a week, they get ‘ahead’ of you by 2 omega mats and half a mk7 generator. So what?
    Take it as an opportunity to ‘git gud’ (as the saying goes) for the next one, or the one after that, instead of crying out to change a game mode that just rolled out and is still in more or less a beta test mode - they will make adjustments as it goes, as they have with most every other game mode. By all means, make your voice heard here with suggested improvements and feedback, but please don’t try to make them take away (or wholly rebuild) new bit of content before it has even fully arrived.

    (As a last point, and this is just a personal observation, as I have no proof, I don’t believe that the matchmaking is done strictly on GP even now. But I don’t have Revan yet, and at the 3.8M bracket, it seems very unlikely that not one of the 26 opponents I have been paired with thus far would not have had Revan either, but that is precisely what has happened. Even in the first aborted GA, I had not unlocked Traya yet, my opponent didn’t have her either - but guess what? I unlocked her between that one and the second single round event, and my last 25 (potential) opponents have all had her. Coincidence? Possibly...)



  • Kyno
    19211 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    At no point will anyone stop developing their roster and get or do better at GA, that would be against what they have stated as the "spirit of the game" issue stated with 'paper zombie'.

    So how is that not EXACTLY what they are doing with their 25-40 G1 Level 1 2/3* Chars (Many of which I bet are closer to 5-6* if you counted their collected unused shards)

    They will not EVER touch those units until the 2-3 of each are being touch and PURELY leveled straight to 85 and G9-10 instantly I bet dollars to donuts.

    And I bet a good 2 dozen of then will NEVER be used because they are not useful to any of their squads or event desires. By the time he does touch them it will be because NO other char needs anything and he has credits and materials he hasnt a clue what to horde for anymore.

    This leads to literally IDENTICAL theory of gameplay of paper zombie but instead of limited to one faction and 1 unit it will be across almost a entire PLATOON of units.

    Because you cant stop developing and doing better.

    They strategically developed and will continue to do so, just like we all will.

    In this game mode? Maybe maybe not, but there are many events that require different factions and different toons. Pilots and other random toons have become useful in different metas. Never say never.

    It absolutely does not lead to a paper zombie, because GP will still go up over time. Zombie was a full stop at a low level and being more useful at that level. That is impossible in this game if you want to stay relevant and competitive. You will always have more usefulness from developing your roster than letting it stay low.
  • I thought about how bout u pick 10 squads. And those 10 squads get locked and those squads combined GP match with the next guy. However, this immediately becomes a who's got better mods problem. Speed secondary mods don't have GP how's that fair?

    So far in my PvP experience better mods still wins over a Revan. But of course if mods are equal, and you are down a Revan and a Traya, it's gonna be a tough match.

    GP is currently still the best way to match make as it is now clear to everyone what is needed to perform better in GA. We can all start working towards better rosters, and it may take a couple months, but it will balance out eventually.

    Another way to fix this is for CG to recalculate each toons GP. A 20k GP toon shouldn't be able to take on endless numbers of 6k GP toons, but they can. This is a problem. If this was scaled properly, we could potentially be looking at a more fair GP matchup.
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