Suggested, Simple, Improvement to GA Matchmaking

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  • Liath wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    Your suggestion is "git gud" without acknowledging that to develop a roster "ideal" for GA is impossible because you can't actually do anything to reset character upgrades you made over a year ago to help your guild for territory battles.

    Nope. You are still completely ignoring what I actually said.

    Nah, I read it. You're ignoring that you can't downgrade those toons. The gap can't be worked on because it can't be undone.

    I’m not ignoring it because I specifically addressed it. My point is that in spite of the fact that you can’t downgrade those characters, you can nonetheless improve your chances in GA over time by improving your roster and making those fluff characters a smaller and less relevant percentage of your GP.

    Tell me this. You say that matchmaking should only count 70 characters because only 70 characters matter in GA. That’s *your* argument right? So if only 70 characters matter and everything else is irrelevant, then isn’t it the case that if you have the ideal 70 characters to use all completely maxed out, it makes no difference what else you have or don’t have? So if you compare two people, and one has 70 great characters maxed and then 20 less-great characters at g10-11 and the rest at g1; and the second has the same great 70 characters maxed and then every other character at g6-8; and they have the same GP. According to you, this would be a fair and even match right? So then isn’t it necessarily true that if you max out those 70 characters, you’ve made up for any fluff issue?

    But you are always carrying that 'fluff'.

    I agree you can improve your chances like you state. But you can't ever get rid of it.

    Yes, you can work to minimise it, and avoid investing in any more 'useless' toons like the plague.

    But it will always disadvantage you.

    They have created an element in the game that disadvantages investment of excess gear and currency, particularly past investment that you can't change. I highly doubt this is intentional and it actively discourages investment.

    It can and should be better than this.
  • Liath
    2731 posts Member
    Liath wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    Your suggestion is "git gud" without acknowledging that to develop a roster "ideal" for GA is impossible because you can't actually do anything to reset character upgrades you made over a year ago to help your guild for territory battles.

    Nope. You are still completely ignoring what I actually said.

    Nah, I read it. You're ignoring that you can't downgrade those toons. The gap can't be worked on because it can't be undone.

    I’m not ignoring it because I specifically addressed it. My point is that in spite of the fact that you can’t downgrade those characters, you can nonetheless improve your chances in GA over time by improving your roster and making those fluff characters a smaller and less relevant percentage of your GP.

    Tell me this. You say that matchmaking should only count 70 characters because only 70 characters matter in GA. That’s *your* argument right? So if only 70 characters matter and everything else is irrelevant, then isn’t it the case that if you have the ideal 70 characters to use all completely maxed out, it makes no difference what else you have or don’t have? So if you compare two people, and one has 70 great characters maxed and then 20 less-great characters at g10-11 and the rest at g1; and the second has the same great 70 characters maxed and then every other character at g6-8; and they have the same GP. According to you, this would be a fair and even match right? So then isn’t it necessarily true that if you max out those 70 characters, you’ve made up for any fluff issue?

    But you are always carrying that 'fluff'.

    I agree you can improve your chances like you state. But you can't ever get rid of it.

    Yes, you can work to minimise it, and avoid investing in any more 'useless' toons like the plague.

    But it will always disadvantage you.

    They have created an element in the game that disadvantages investment of excess gear and currency, particularly past investment that you can't change. I highly doubt this is intentional and it actively discourages investment.

    It can and should be better than this.

    How does it disadvantage you in my example? After all you are the one that said only 70 characters matter. So please explain to me how the gear level of characters outside of the 70 could matter if it doesn’t change how good the 70 you’re using are?
  • Liath wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    Your suggestion is "git gud" without acknowledging that to develop a roster "ideal" for GA is impossible because you can't actually do anything to reset character upgrades you made over a year ago to help your guild for territory battles.

    Nope. You are still completely ignoring what I actually said.

    Nah, I read it. You're ignoring that you can't downgrade those toons. The gap can't be worked on because it can't be undone.

    I’m not ignoring it because I specifically addressed it. My point is that in spite of the fact that you can’t downgrade those characters, you can nonetheless improve your chances in GA over time by improving your roster and making those fluff characters a smaller and less relevant percentage of your GP.

    Tell me this. You say that matchmaking should only count 70 characters because only 70 characters matter in GA. That’s *your* argument right? So if only 70 characters matter and everything else is irrelevant, then isn’t it the case that if you have the ideal 70 characters to use all completely maxed out, it makes no difference what else you have or don’t have? So if you compare two people, and one has 70 great characters maxed and then 20 less-great characters at g10-11 and the rest at g1; and the second has the same great 70 characters maxed and then every other character at g6-8; and they have the same GP. According to you, this would be a fair and even match right? So then isn’t it necessarily true that if you max out those 70 characters, you’ve made up for any fluff issue?

    But you are always carrying that 'fluff'.

    I agree you can improve your chances like you state. But you can't ever get rid of it.

    Yes, you can work to minimise it, and avoid investing in any more 'useless' toons like the plague.

    But it will always disadvantage you.

    They have created an element in the game that disadvantages investment of excess gear and currency, particularly past investment that you can't change. I highly doubt this is intentional and it actively discourages investment.

    It can and should be better than this.

    How does it disadvantage you in my example? After all you are the one that said only 70 characters matter. So please explain to me how the gear level of characters outside of the 70 could matter if it doesn’t change how good the 70 you’re using are?

    I agreed with you. I can work purely on gearing up that end of my roster, like most people do already and did before. For the most part we all focus on the top end, some just neglected the bottom.

    Im still disadvantaged because the GP mismatch of the top 70 toons is in the magnitude of over 500k at times at present.

    Im still disadvantaged because its impossible to reduce a 50+ G12 gap overnight.

    I agree, eventually I can minimise it. But its still there. By the time I have caught up to 70 G12, they still have more, although yes, it will not be as much of an issue.
  • Liath
    2731 posts Member
    Liath wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    Your suggestion is "git gud" without acknowledging that to develop a roster "ideal" for GA is impossible because you can't actually do anything to reset character upgrades you made over a year ago to help your guild for territory battles.

    Nope. You are still completely ignoring what I actually said.

    Nah, I read it. You're ignoring that you can't downgrade those toons. The gap can't be worked on because it can't be undone.

    I’m not ignoring it because I specifically addressed it. My point is that in spite of the fact that you can’t downgrade those characters, you can nonetheless improve your chances in GA over time by improving your roster and making those fluff characters a smaller and less relevant percentage of your GP.

    Tell me this. You say that matchmaking should only count 70 characters because only 70 characters matter in GA. That’s *your* argument right? So if only 70 characters matter and everything else is irrelevant, then isn’t it the case that if you have the ideal 70 characters to use all completely maxed out, it makes no difference what else you have or don’t have? So if you compare two people, and one has 70 great characters maxed and then 20 less-great characters at g10-11 and the rest at g1; and the second has the same great 70 characters maxed and then every other character at g6-8; and they have the same GP. According to you, this would be a fair and even match right? So then isn’t it necessarily true that if you max out those 70 characters, you’ve made up for any fluff issue?

    But you are always carrying that 'fluff'.

    I agree you can improve your chances like you state. But you can't ever get rid of it.

    Yes, you can work to minimise it, and avoid investing in any more 'useless' toons like the plague.

    But it will always disadvantage you.

    They have created an element in the game that disadvantages investment of excess gear and currency, particularly past investment that you can't change. I highly doubt this is intentional and it actively discourages investment.

    It can and should be better than this.

    How does it disadvantage you in my example? After all you are the one that said only 70 characters matter. So please explain to me how the gear level of characters outside of the 70 could matter if it doesn’t change how good the 70 you’re using are?

    I agreed with you. I can work purely on gearing up that end of my roster, like most people do already and did before. For the most part we all focus on the top end, some just neglected the bottom.

    Im still disadvantaged because the GP mismatch of the top 70 toons is in the magnitude of over 500k at times at present.

    Im still disadvantaged because its impossible to reduce a 50+ G12 gap overnight.

    I agree, eventually I can minimise it. But its still there. By the time I have caught up to 70 G12, they still have more, although yes, it will not be as much of an issue.

    Will it not be “as much of an issue” or will it not be an issue at all? Because if it will be an issue at all, then your proposal to match based only on the top 70 characters is a poor one.

    I think many more than 70 characters are relevant due to different teams having different potential counters and the reasonably likely possibility of needing more than one team to take a squad out at times. So I very much dislike the idea of matching on just the top 70.
  • Liath wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    Your suggestion is "git gud" without acknowledging that to develop a roster "ideal" for GA is impossible because you can't actually do anything to reset character upgrades you made over a year ago to help your guild for territory battles.

    Nope. You are still completely ignoring what I actually said.

    Nah, I read it. You're ignoring that you can't downgrade those toons. The gap can't be worked on because it can't be undone.

    I’m not ignoring it because I specifically addressed it. My point is that in spite of the fact that you can’t downgrade those characters, you can nonetheless improve your chances in GA over time by improving your roster and making those fluff characters a smaller and less relevant percentage of your GP.

    Tell me this. You say that matchmaking should only count 70 characters because only 70 characters matter in GA. That’s *your* argument right? So if only 70 characters matter and everything else is irrelevant, then isn’t it the case that if you have the ideal 70 characters to use all completely maxed out, it makes no difference what else you have or don’t have? So if you compare two people, and one has 70 great characters maxed and then 20 less-great characters at g10-11 and the rest at g1; and the second has the same great 70 characters maxed and then every other character at g6-8; and they have the same GP. According to you, this would be a fair and even match right? So then isn’t it necessarily true that if you max out those 70 characters, you’ve made up for any fluff issue?

    But you are always carrying that 'fluff'.

    I agree you can improve your chances like you state. But you can't ever get rid of it.

    Yes, you can work to minimise it, and avoid investing in any more 'useless' toons like the plague.

    But it will always disadvantage you.

    They have created an element in the game that disadvantages investment of excess gear and currency, particularly past investment that you can't change. I highly doubt this is intentional and it actively discourages investment.

    It can and should be better than this.

    How does it disadvantage you in my example? After all you are the one that said only 70 characters matter. So please explain to me how the gear level of characters outside of the 70 could matter if it doesn’t change how good the 70 you’re using are?

    I agreed with you. I can work purely on gearing up that end of my roster, like most people do already and did before. For the most part we all focus on the top end, some just neglected the bottom.

    Im still disadvantaged because the GP mismatch of the top 70 toons is in the magnitude of over 500k at times at present.

    Im still disadvantaged because its impossible to reduce a 50+ G12 gap overnight.

    I agree, eventually I can minimise it. But its still there. By the time I have caught up to 70 G12, they still have more, although yes, it will not be as much of an issue.

    Will it not be “as much of an issue” or will it not be an issue at all? Because if it will be an issue at all, then your proposal to match based only on the top 70 characters is a poor one.

    I think many more than 70 characters are relevant due to different teams having different potential counters and the reasonably likely possibility of needing more than one team to take a squad out at times. So I very much dislike the idea of matching on just the top 70.

    I didn't suggest that was how to match, i said only that number or so actually matter, but then we'd both be focusing on semantics.

    Of course, by shifting to "laser focus" mode I can start to lessen disadvantage. But that G6 ugnaught is still there.

    Matching based upon a proportional algorithm would make this fairer. Having more nodes would work too. The OP gave some great suggestions on ways to make this a fairer system.

    The fact remains. Total GP is generating far from equal match ups. This is a result of some having lean rosters vs those who 'fluffed' to assist their guilds in 2017.

    We can't all always win. there will always be, and always should be someone with an advantage. It's healthy for the game when that is by having the latest meta toons and gives you reward and incentive for investing.

    With GA, matching is rewarding not investing in your whole roster into the future, but more importantly penalising those who did months and years ago when you can't go back.
  • Top 70 is too low I posted near the beginning of this long thread that using the GP of the top 100 would be about right. They could always even things out by keeping the GP matching as is but every 2nd GA you can only use the bottom 100 of your roster. So the top heavy rosters would be at a disadvantage. It might actually make for an interesting GA my garbage is better than your garbage.
  • Liath
    2731 posts Member
    Top 70 is too low I posted near the beginning of this long thread that using the GP of the top 100 would be about right. They could always even things out by keeping the GP matching as is but every 2nd GA you can only use the bottom 100 of your roster. So the top heavy rosters would be at a disadvantage. It might actually make for an interesting GA my garbage is better than your garbage.

    Could be fun, although creating coherent teams could be an issue. After this debacle with TW they’d probably be gunshy about such a thing I imagine.
  • I agree about the GW if they wanted to limit a meta each war i think people would understand but voting for those choices was terrible. If they wanted to play with characters they should do it in GA and not GW where the rewards are much better. I know they are trying to change things up so not to be too stale but I think they are looking in the wrong places. I personally would like to see TB changed up. We have a Hoth TB how about a Clone Wars TB, Change ROLO for Padme and Probe Droid for Droideka. Rotate those for a year then maybe add a FO vs Resistance the following year and rotate them each month.
  • Liath
    2731 posts Member
    I agree about the GW if they wanted to limit a meta each war i think people would understand but voting for those choices was terrible. If they wanted to play with characters they should do it in GA and not GW where the rewards are much better. I know they are trying to change things up so not to be too stale but I think they are looking in the wrong places. I personally would like to see TB changed up. We have a Hoth TB how about a Clone Wars TB, Change ROLO for Padme and Probe Droid for Droideka. Rotate those for a year then maybe add a FO vs Resistance the following year and rotate them each month.

    I thought this was the idea when TB launched and I am disappointed that after a year we still don’t have a new TB map. Part of the issue would be how often each one runs to allow everyone an opportunity to finish the reward characters and to eventually get the max star achievements. When they added the tank raid the intial idea was that it would use the same tickets and guilds would have to pick which raid to run, which would have been a big mess. I’m not sure what the best way is to deal with that issue.

    (Sorry, we are getting pretty far off topic here.)
  • I want a GA where everyone has every character unlocked as an "event" unit with the same gear and mods and abilities. And it's up to you to choose what to put on defense. Imagine having literally every character maxed at your disposal and see which player has the best strategy with everyone having equal characters.

    Kinda like the game hanger accounts, but for everyone. At least once.
  • Waqui
    4016 posts Member
    The issue is we were encouraged to invest excess gear and currency into these toons in July 2017.

    Investing in your roster has never been a disadvantage. A waste of time maybe, but never a disadvantage until grand arena. And you cant go back.

    Already with the introduction of TW "fluff GP" could give your guild a stronger opponent. It was also a disadvantage (during match-making) in TW.

  • Waqui wrote: »
    The issue is we were encouraged to invest excess gear and currency into these toons in July 2017.

    Investing in your roster has never been a disadvantage. A waste of time maybe, but never a disadvantage until grand arena. And you cant go back.

    Already with the introduction of TW "fluff GP" could give your guild a stronger opponent. It was also a disadvantage (during match-making) in TW.

    Sort of. It doesn't have quite the same magnitude of impact spread across 50 rosters compared to 1v1 in grand arena.

    I'm still not clear why fine tuning a matching algorithm to create fairer, closer and more even matches is a bad thing
  • My roster was a bit all over the place. Since GA came out I have worked on my squads. In 100000 GP things have improved a lot. In all GA I came in 2nd - 4th. I am fine with that.
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