Is Luke Skywalker the most powerful of all time

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  • f0j34svxq7hv.jpg

    I shall stroke my beard and ponder this meme.
  • LordDirt wrote: »
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    Rey used the Force Mind Trick without even knowing what she was doing. She beat a Darkside Force user the first time she picked up a lightsaber. Kylo Ren is supposed to be one of the best duelest ever but was bested by a new force user that had never even turned on a lightsaber.

    Her path is leading her to be the greatest Jedi ever. Just wait for episode 9.

    That picture is so disingenuous it hurts. You can do a side by side of that with anyone if you've made your mind up in advance. Just put the best of one next to the worst of another, and you're done. Especially if you completely ignore what's going on for half of it.
    Still not a he.
  • Kylo Ren is meant to be one of the greatest duellest ever LOOOOL where you hear that bro


    I dont remember where I read it. Will have to go search for it. There is a reason he is call the “Jedi Killer” and destroyed all the Jedi in the Jedi Temple.
    Why wasn't Cobb Vanth shards a reward for the Krayt Dragon raid? Why wasn't Endor Gear Luke shards a reward for the Speeder Bike raid?
  • FailingCrab
    1155 posts Member
    edited January 2019
    I once saw something about rey's accelerated intuition being a result of the link between her and Kylo. Something about that initial exchange when he tries to interrogate her and she ends up in his head as much as he's in hers. The idea being that she gained a degree of his understanding of the force etc.

    There was a reasonable attempt at justifying this too - I remember them breaking down the lightsaber forms Rey uses on Ach-To and comparing it to Kylo's duelling technique and they look extremely similar.

    It wasn't a canon source but this is a series about flying space wizards, any excuse to suspend disbelief works for me.
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  • Non Canon is where you can find the richest material these days in star wars Canon really ain't hot for a good while now
  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    I would agree that the force manifests differently in others - Quinlon Vos has an ability to track recent history of an object for example. But again - he is an older Jedi not a child or a mere newcomer to the way of the force - he would have undergone many years of training to discover that power.

    As for the Rodian using a force push technique or even Starkiller as a child ripping Vader's own lightsaber to his grasp - this was all done under duress as you have made before - an anomaly, a fluke use of the force, not likely to be able to be recreated again without being reflected upon "what just happened". And some training to better use it.

    Babies when they are born cannot just stand up, walk and talk - they learn this and there concepts from others and practice themselves.

    Indeed an adult may be able to randomly punch or kick to defend themselves, but not able to instantly understand martial arts pulling off complicated locks, whirlwind kicks, grappling, throws etc - just because that person is aware of their existence - it doesn't work that way.

    Rey was able to pull off not only complicated force techniques at random will - but in the process was able to defy and beat trained force users. Broom boy also wasn't under duress at the time of pulling that broom to his hand - they both just do things - again fitting the new star wars narrative I have explained above.

    Its not my version of "fan fiction" its how it is.

    The darkside is the quicker and easier path to using the force and focusing ones passion into strengths in the force, but even they have a lot of training. Just look at the rigorous training Sidious put Maul through.

    While unplanned events can happen within the force - one cannot simply just be a force user and automatically tap into any force power that ever existed just because the story tells them to do so - that is very poor writing. Which is why there was such build up as to who Rey's parents were and why she was able to do these things.

    My view is following established lore, not "fan fiction", lol.
    There are no flukes. Exceptions do not prove rules; they disprove them.

    What's more, when there are about a dozen examples in this thread without even digging particularly deep. That's not flukes. That's demonstrably how things work, and you've provided no sources or examples that your model is the exclusive manner in which the Force works, particularly when those dozen "flukes" prove your model is not consistent with Star Wars canon, before or after the reboot..

    There is no common thread of duress nor a common lack of mastery after the inciting incident. Starkiller taps into the Force under duress as a kid, then needs training to do it again. Corran discovers he can Sebastian Shaw under duress once, then soon after, he goes and tanks a grenade and redirects the energy to smite his enemies in a hurricane of fire. He discovers his illusion powers under no duress, but masters them as quickly. And the Rodian child is a literal infant in their mother's arms, casually levitating a toy as a form of play.

    And this is not a Disney thing. This includes the movies, the TV shows, the novels long before Disney took over.

    So, again. Your version is not "how it is." It's your fan fiction. Force powers manifesting rapidly and in a usable fashion with little to no training is consistent with prior established canon, because the Force does not manifest in the same way for everyone and what's intuitive for one person may be anathema to another.

    Also, who Rey's parents are have zero impact on how she could do these things. The Force is explicitly not dynastic save for a few specific, possibly aberrant cases like the Skywalkers, and it is normal for the Force to manifest to varying degrees of strength in random nobodies with no prior connection to Force traditions.
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Anakin was the most powerful but then Rey came along.
    ...but then Rey came along, and Anakin remained the most powerful.

    Seriously, she lifted some rocks, won a tug of war and tied another, and did a Force trick. Her list of accomplishments isn't particularly impressive next to the Clone Wars era Jedi basically being superheroes. Or even Kanan and Ezra, who together lifted a mountain. Kanan stopped an explosion big enough to level a city block with one hand and hurled a ship with another. Ezra literally Aquamanned an imperial fleet to defeat.

    Anakin literally brought back the dead.

    Oh dear. I have agreed with you that the force manifests in people differently.

    The "duress" argument was made by you in regard to the rodian using force push technique and I continued that with Starkiller and Vader's saber.

    Of course force users can connect into the force - whether it was under duress and they need to reflect on it, or in the case of the Rodian baby playing with a toy using telekinesis - that is as common to him as learning to walk and talk it would seem, I forgot about that to be honest.

    Having said that - he could not tap into mind control or any complicated thing such as that on his own and so quickly. Telekinesis in the force is like a force user's bread and butter, just like walking is bread and butter for most people. So I could concede that issue.

    However this little conversation started regarding Mary S...woops I meant Rey.

    She had no training, tapped into any force power she desired, because the story told her to. She even beat trained force users.

    You make the comparison to the Jedi of old and prequel trilogy who had years of rigorous training - Anakin himself jumped 10 years from TPM to AOTC and is still nowhere near the likes we have seen Rey.

    She just picked everything up, just because - with no training or otherwise. She lifted a few rocks??? No. Luke lifted a few rocks and a droid under rigorous training with Yoda - Rey has 0 training from anyone and lifts a freaking mountain! Big difference - yes size matters not, but Luke failed to lift his x-wing grasping that concept - Rey has 0 failures at all, she can do anything.

    I am also glad you mentioned Anakin - Anakin (as we can all agree) is space Jesus, he is the force personified and the force has never been so powerful in any being and never will be.

    Anakin's blood line is paramount in regard to their strength of connection to the force based on their genetic midichlorian count. Luke and Leia are powerful and so is Kylo.

    Rey - untrained suddenly taps into complicated force abilities and not only bests a trained force user - who happens to be a freaking Skywalker.

    Not only does this make the character of Rey silly pulling off complicated force abilities at will with no training, but she beats trained force users, who is a skywalker - that is 3 times the silliness!

    Snoke goes on to say that Rey is Kylo's equal in the force - the force balancing itself, which again is silly. Anakin was the result of the force establishing "balance" so this Kylo/Rey thing is just more silliness.

    Not to mention if Kylo is dark and Rey is his equal in the light - we already know Kylo has deep struggles with the pull of the lightside, he couldn't bring himself to kill Leia or even Rey. So this means he is not very "dark" so what's the balancing impact of this on Rey?

    Anyways - the Rey issue is not my interpretation of fan fiction and considering the amount of hate over TLJ, I am certainly not alone in this line of thinking at all.

    Established lore simply cannot be broken under the term of "subverting expectations" just because a script says so - the writing needs to be deeper in that otherwise the lore is all hogwash.
  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Kylo Ren is meant to be one of the greatest duellest ever LOOOOL where you hear that bro


    I dont remember where I read it. Will have to go search for it. There is a reason he is call the “Jedi Killer” and destroyed all the Jedi in the Jedi Temple.

    Perhaps the best lightsaber swordsman of his era - due to his feats at the sacking of the temple - likely a title bestowed upon him by SNoke anyway.

    Anyways - it doesn't matter - he is an accomplished trained force user and lightsaber duelist with the genetic bloodline of Anakin Skywalker.

    Like you say, Rey never even turned on a lightsaber before.

    Those points alone end this discussion - period.
  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    I once saw something about rey's accelerated intuition being a result of the link between her and Kylo. Something about that initial exchange when he tries to interrogate her and she ends up in his head as much as he's in hers. The idea being that she gained a degree of his understanding of the force etc.

    There was a reasonable attempt at justifying this too - I remember them breaking down the lightsaber forms Rey uses on Ach-To and comparing it to Kylo's duelling technique and they look extremely similar.

    It wasn't a canon source but this is a series about flying space wizards, any excuse to suspend disbelief works for me.

    ttdcioldcwug.jpg
  • I once saw something about rey's accelerated intuition being a result of the link between her and Kylo. Something about that initial exchange when he tries to interrogate her and she ends up in his head as much as he's in hers. The idea being that she gained a degree of his understanding of the force etc.

    She Neo'd her way to Jedi Mastery
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  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    edited January 2019
    Hahaha - exactly! lol :smile:

    At least the Matrix is its own thing, with its own lore on how things work etc. In this instance how Neo could "download" abilities was explained...unlike Mary/Rey.

    "That's not how the force works!" - Quote: Han Solo, TFA
  • Boo
    4134 posts Member
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    LordDirt wrote: »
    0qc05comifeo.jpeg
    Rey used the Force Mind Trick without even knowing what she was doing. She beat a Darkside Force user the first time she picked up a lightsaber. Kylo Ren is supposed to be one of the best duelest ever but was bested by a new force user that had never even turned on a lightsaber.

    Her path is leading her to be the greatest Jedi ever. Just wait for episode 9.

    That picture is so disingenuous it hurts. You can do a side by side of that with anyone if you've made your mind up in advance. Just put the best of one next to the worst of another, and you're done. Especially if you completely ignore what's going on for half of it.

    Actually that meme is pretty spot on.

    It doesn't even touch on other issues -

    Luke: Fails to lift x-wing
    Rey: lifts mountains

    Luke: Hand removed by Vader (after a lot of training with Yoda)
    Rey: beats in lightsaber combat first time even turning on a lightsaber (no training)

    Luke: Struggles with darkside (Yoda's cave and also striking down Vader in ROTJ)
    Rey: Goes straight to the darkside and returns unscathed

    It goes on and on.
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